Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Thank you to Don Allen for the Tesla info Message-ID: Date: 11 Sep 91 15:44:34 GMT References: Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 37 In article davidj@wrs.com (David Jones) writes: > >Faraday knew about the possibilities in 1831 (I've seen a copy of his diagram) >when he drew a picture of a donut shaped magnet with a wire in the middle and >a wire at the top. When spinning, it creates an output which is greater in >energy than the amount of energy that it takes to spin the magnet. They don`t >teach us about this in physics at the universities because the *scientists* >can't explain it. All the times I've read something like that, it didn't occur to me until now that it must be what Carlos Allende was talking about when he wrote, "Had Farraday concerned himself about the mag. field surrounding an Electric Current, We today Would NOT exist _or_if_ We did exist, our present Geo-political situation would not have the very time-bombish, ticking off towards Destruction, atmosphere that Now exists." (His spelling and grammar, not mine!) >Keep in mind, Tesla said he received a lot of his ideas from beings that >he was in telepathic communication with from the planet Venus (non- >physical beings). I hadn't heard that. Keep in mind that he was under a lot of stress, and was eccentric to begin with, not to mention all the radio waves he exposed himself to. Maybe he wasn't in his right mind all the time. >According to people at Los Alamos, in 1943, the U. S. Government had a free >energy device the size of a locomotive. The secret government (was there a >secret government in '43?) had it, and the plans for it, destroyed. Well, some versions of the story place the first alien contact in 1943 rather than 1947. Dimensional transport, you know... -- * From the disk of: |>>>>> back at the old feed <<<<<| We're only immortal Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms | for a limited time. 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@amix.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Dreamline") Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!dsinc!bagate!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: September 18th 'Unsolved Mysteries' Message-ID: Date: 12 Sep 91 03:30:43 GMT Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 8 The Bentwaters/Rendlesham case will be featured on the season premier of NBC's "Unsolved Mysteries" next Wednesday, September 18th. -- * From the disk of: |>>>>> back at the old feed <<<<<| We're only immortal Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms | for a limited time. 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@amix.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Dreamline") Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!dsinc!bagate!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: circles again Message-ID: Date: 12 Sep 91 03:36:20 GMT Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 20 There was an AP article today about a man in North Carolina who says that while he believes the British circles with all the fancy designs are a hoax, he has some plain circles that he thinks were really caused by wind or something. A terribly boring and obvious article, except for a couple of odd paragraphs at the end: In North Dakota, Sharon Wagner says a series of mysterious circles that showed up in a hay field on her family's farm north of Bismarck three years ago are still plainly visible. "We don't have any real explanation for it one way or another," she said. (Quoted without permission for research purposes only.) -- * From the disk of: |>>>>> back at the old feed <<<<<| We're only immortal Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms | for a limited time. 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@amix.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Dreamline") Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!usenet From: esanborn@gda.cadence.com (Ed Sanborn) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Circle Hoaxers Message-ID: <1991Sep12.151102.5470@cadence.com> Date: 12 Sep 91 15:11:02 GMT Sender: usenet@cadence.com (USENET News) Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc. Lines: 16 Seems to me, a pretty good test of there authenticity would be to keep watch on them for several nights and if any good circles appear then you know it wasn't them. Of course there could be others involved in there little game but at least you could nail it down to not requiring them single handedly. Just my two cents worth. -Ed -- Edward A. Sanborn - System Manager esanborn@gda.cadence.com Cadence Design Systems, Inc. 2 Lowell Research Center Lowell, Ma. 01852 (508) 934-0256 Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1!psuvm!asg102 From: ASG102@psuvm.psu.edu (The Dreamer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Alien Dreams Message-ID: <91255.134124ASG102@psuvm.psu.edu> Date: 12 Sep 91 17:41:24 GMT References: <1991Sep9.153038.4269@engage.pko.dec.com> <1991Sep11.082250.11466@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au> Organization: Penn State University Lines: 39 In article <1991Sep11.082250.11466@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au>, rxxgre@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au (Geof Rey Evans) says: > >'cause I had the sensation of being awake at the time. What was strange >was a strong sense of fear which is quite unlike myself who has always >maintained a "oh wow, this should be good" type attitude to these > ... >be coming from inside my head rather than my ears. The feeling that they >had come for me and that they were alien was unbelievably strong and >seemingly without doubt on my part, though quite ah, intuitive. I found >it very scary (this surprised me a lot !) and had to wake myself up as >the fear (and the feeling) grew quite strong. I had a cigarette and >calmed down.....and the feeling they were "there" stayed with me for >5-10 mins, and then *faded* away and did not return and i went back to >sleep. Anyone care to comment. I am well aquainted with the paranormal >but have never experienced anything like this. I had hair up on end >absolutely ALL over my body. Quite unreal. The only thing that happened to me that was like this happened when I was about 14 or so. A friend and I were climbing a hill just to get to the top. At the VERY top of the hill was an old gnarled tree sitting there all alone with no other trees around it. As I got closer, this overwhelming sense of fear began and increased the closer I got to the tree. I thought I was just being wierd, so I looked over at my friend. He looked VERY pale and said "Let's get out of here." I agreed and we practically ran down the side of the hill. I still remember the feeling and I can't say that I was ever that afraid of anything in my life. Personally, if you believe in ESP, I would say that both experiences were our minds tapping into something dark or forbidden. You could just dismiss it as being irrational or childish, but I don't think I'll ever go on top of that hill again. Life's wierd, isn't it? Love and Peace and Wierdness, -The Dreamer- _________________________________________________________________________ "Changing the laws of physics is a hobby of mine." "YOU'RE NOT AS REAL AS YOU THINK" "I dream the dream immortal" "Pierre, pass the maple syrup." Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!watserv1!watdragon!rose.waterloo.edu!jsinclair From: jsinclair@rose.waterloo.edu (Jack Sinclair) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Circle Hoaxers Message-ID: <1991Sep12.182014.27084@watdragon.waterloo.edu> Date: 12 Sep 91 18:20:14 GMT References: <1991Sep12.151102.5470@cadence.com> Sender: news@watdragon.waterloo.edu (USENET News System) Organization: University of Waterloo Lines: 22 In article <1991Sep12.151102.5470@cadence.com> esanborn@gda.cadence.com (Ed Sanborn) writes: > > Seems to me, a pretty good test of there authenticity would be to keep >watch on them for several nights and if any good circles appear then you >know it wasn't them. Of course there could be others involved in there >little game but at least you could nail it down to not requiring them >single handedly. > > Just my two cents worth. > > -Ed My roommate mentioned to me last night that the fellows were on a national radio program up here in Canada. Reportedly, the vast number of circles were explained by them as this: one (or both) of the men are artists, and a few years back, they were at a party, mostly artist types... anyways, a few beers, and a few laughs later, they shared their secret with some of those at the party. They postulated that others implemented their ideas on an independent basis, hence all the world-wide circle sightings. Plausible? It's second hand info to me. Jack. Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1!psuvm!kjr106 From: KJR106@psuvm.psu.edu Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: WHOOSH Message-ID: <91255.143725KJR106@psuvm.psu.edu> Date: 12 Sep 91 18:37:25 GMT Organization: Give me a telephone, and I'll show you a belchbox. Lines: 1 X-Subliminal-Message: You will whoosh! You WILL whoosh! WHOOSH!!!! Spread the word!!!.... Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!slxsys!ibmpcug!robobar!stl!stc!fsb From: fsb@tcom.stc.co.uk (Frank Stuart Brown) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Marrs & End of world in 1997? computers tool of Satan? Message-ID: <1991Sep12.112813.25315@tcom.stc.co.uk> Date: 12 Sep 91 11:28:13 GMT References: <91248.200330UMASP@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> Sender: news@tcom.stc.co.uk (System Administration) Reply-To: fsb@tcom.stc.co.uk (Frank Stuart Brown) Organization: STC Telecomms, New Southgate, London, N11 1HB Lines: 12 David Icke recons JC was born in SEPT (constellation of VIRGO) which is where the virgin birth myth comes from. Or did a couple of time travellers give MARY some AI? -- --------------------------------------------------- Frank Stuart-Brown, Dept 31700, Customer Services, || !mcsun!ukc!stc!fsb Tel +44 81 945 2608 || +44 924 870838 Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!ms6i+ From: ms6i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Mark Francis Stramaglia) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Research in space alien impact methods. Message-ID: <0cnxgbe00Uh7A4nCYw@andrew.cmu.edu> Date: 12 Sep 91 21:24:55 GMT Organization: Senior, Art, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 30 CC:samuel ward Our way of doing a space alien documentary-film research was making this a videofilm on the teachers concerning the basic space alien research. We choosed how to film the class, the class choosed us for ways we prepared of doing the research they required, etc. The general topic is the Natural Engineering and Computer Sciences in Space Alien Science. Based on space alien experience and knowledge, like a good electromagnetic theory, the history of the development of a space alien documentary-film and/or its modern applications (radar etc...), will examine the role of computers and privacy. This survey will include the use and impact of space alien research computers on warfare, warfare education, medical warfare care, and computer warfare technology. We will intelligently deal with the possible consequences of the impact of warfare benefits of the computer age concerning the perceived space alien affect (control?) of our everyday life. We did research in how the pupils delt with their learning. We, interested in how the freedom to integrate, with responsibility of learning how to learn themselves, explored questions and made work in order to do the space alien research they required. I would reference about what trade-offs we as a society are prepared to discuss about how this space alien technology benefits from experience and knowledge of contemporary society. Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!ibmchs!auschs!d75!awdprime!woofer.austin.ibm.com!craigb From: craigb@woofer.austin.ibm.com (Craig Becker) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Alien Dreams Message-ID: <10996@awdprime.UUCP> Date: 12 Sep 91 15:38:24 GMT References: <1991Sep11.082250.11466@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au> <1991Sep9.153038.4269@engage.pko.dec.com> Sender: news@awdprime.UUCP Reply-To: craigb@ot.austin.ibm.com Organization: IBM Object Technology Products Lines: 24 In article <1991Sep11.082250.11466@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au>, rxxgre@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au (Geof Rey Evans) writes: > > Last night I had a dream which was very disorientating... ... > but have never experienced anything like this. I had hair up on end > absolutely ALL over my body. Quite unreal. > ciao, Geof. Questions: could you move while you were having the dream? did you hear a harsh buzzing noise? did experience any other tactile/visual/ audible hallucinations? did you have trouble waking yourself? Craig ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- "I mean, foreign agent or no, Craig Becker, Object Technology Products -- -- I've done good work for the Internet: craigb@ot.vnet.ibm.com -- -- city. I never compromised my Austin: craigb@ot.austin.ibm.com -- -- integrity, except a few times." VNET: CRAIGB at AUSVM1 -- ---------------------- Lt. Okking ------------------------------------------- -- off 808/1K-020 zip 3008 ph (512) 823-1756 tl 793-1756 hm (512) 346-5397 -- -- IBM Personal Systems Programming, 11400 Burnet Road, Austin, TX, 78759 -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!news.funet.fi!ousrvr.oulu.fi!ousrvr!heke From: heke@stekt.oulu.fi (Heikki Paananen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Circle Hoaxers Message-ID: Date: 13 Sep 91 10:32:35 GMT References: <1991Sep12.151102.5470@cadence.com> Sender: news@ousrvr.oulu.fi Organization: University of Oulu, Dept. of EE, Finland Lines: 26 In-reply-to: esanborn@gda.cadence.com's message of 12 Sep 91 15:11:02 GMT All those crop circle incidents sounds mysterious to me and indeed quessing their appearance, aliens are still on the list. But however, I think that those Mandlebrot figures found are obvious hoaxes. No alien is so naivi! Are they trying to tell us that "Chaos theory is the key to the universe, stick on it my friend..." I am not saying that the meaning of those circles is clear to me, but Mandlebrot.... come on! My quess is that some college students did run one of those PD Mandlebrot programs and were facinated of the beauty of the figures. Then they just thought that "lets make people think that these shapes are the interface to alien science, the first real link between us." However, the method of doing those circles etc. is a little bit foggy... Well, maybe weve gotta set up a set of watchtowers around to find out the truth, but Id say that even a college student is wise enough to avoid guarded areas:-) ----------------------------------------------------------------- Heikki Paananen heke@stekt.oulu.fi The University of Oulu hpa@stek1.oulu.fi Department of electrical engineering so-hsp@finou.oulu.fi Finland ----------------------------------------------------------------- Two hudred Francs for sanctuary and she led me by the hand to a room of dancing shadows, where all the heartache disappears and from glowing tongues of candles I heard her whisper in my ear "J `ntend ton coeur" (Fish) Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!nstar!sara From: sara@nstar.rn.com (Sara Gordon) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Strange Dreams.. Message-ID: Date: 13 Sep 91 13:25:20 GMT References: <91253.154028CMC127@psuvm.psu.edu> Sender: news@news.rn.com (Usenet News) Organization: NSTAR, Indiana's BBS 219-289-0287/317-251-7391 Lines: 20 Nntp-Posting-Host: zztop.rn.com CMC127@psuvm.psu.edu writes: > I was wondering if anybody had the same recurring dream that I've had- > > It's almost as if I'm listening in on a conversation, but as soon as > try to say something, whoever's on the other end suddenly becomes very qui > almost as if I wasn't supposed to be able to hear the conversation. The > weird part about this is that there are images which accompany the voices > and the voices are in bursts rather than any vocalized speech. could you please say more in description what the voices sound like. are the bursts high pitched? do you have any visual associations with this dream? -- Sara Gordon Northern Star 8 line BBS 219-289-0287/317-251-7391 internet: sara@nstar.rn.com uucp: ..!uunet!nstar.rn.com!sara -= newsfeeds available, contact robert@towers.rn.com =- Path: ns-mx!uunet!bu.edu!dartvax!mars.caps.maine.edu!maine.maine.edu!io10081 From: IO10081@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (The Xanadian) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Semjase and the Pleiadeans Message-ID: <91256.151534IO10081@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> Date: 13 Sep 91 19:15:34 GMT References: <1991Sep7.101027.20300@tcom.stc.co.uk> Organization: University of Maine System Lines: 8 In article <1991Sep7.101027.20300@tcom.stc.co.uk>, fsb@tcom.stc.co.uk (Frank Stuart Brown) says: > > >Quel un croc du merde! > ..............mmmoooOOOOOOOoo!! pvfthffhthvfft! Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!phad.hsc.usc.edu!dyett From: dyett@phad.hsc.usc.edu (Donald Yett) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: <35856@usc.edu> Date: 13 Sep 91 21:57:39 GMT References: <1991Sep05.215012.3207@pmafire.inel.gov> <1991Sep11.195848.21288@uwm.edu> Sender: news@usc.edu Followup-To: sci.skeptic Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA Lines: 49 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15001 alt.alien.visitors:2013 Nntp-Posting-Host: phad.hsc.usc.edu In article <1991Sep11.195848.21288@uwm.edu> anthony@convex.csd.uwm.edu (Anthony J Stieber) writes: > >Except that we don't know that there are other planets, but the nine in >our own star system. A ring has been dectected around one star some >years ago, and recently what may be a rather large gas giant planet (or >a small cool starlike object) was detected. This is the only evidence >we have so far that planets may even form around other stars. (Somebody please correct me if I am wrong) There has been at least one announcement every year since approximately 1984 when the one in Pictoris was found.. I think that there have been only two years in this period where one wasn't (supposedly) discovered. >It would seem unlikely that planets are unique here, but saying >outright that there are a very large numbers of planets is not >correct. It would be better to take that fraction of stars that exist >that are G class, then that fraction which are solitary (most stars are >binaries or in close clusters), then that fraction which have have >enough matter around them to form planets. We don't have the last >number at all, merely wide ranging guesses. Other numbers such as how >many of these planetary systems have Earth-like planets are even more >shakey. All stars can potentially (My ESP tells me you will use that word to emphasize your reply to this :>) have planets. Some of course are more likely tha others.. I wouldn't expect too many around blue-giants.. Ok, using the stats that everybody has access to, we can only assume a certain number of habitable planets.. We have a G class star, we have nine planets, only one supports life currently, and one other MAY have at one time been able to support life (Mars). If the planet can support life, it may or may not actually have it (toss a coin..) Right here, we have a one in nine chance of finding a habitable planet in a similar system. (I KNOW you stat-types are going to pick this apart, please give me a break!).. Given a mind-bogglingly large number of similar stars, say a 1 in 2 chance of having planets, a 1 in 9 chance of a habitable planet, and a 1 in 2 chance of life on that planet, and say a 1 in 1Meg chance of intelligent life, you still have a mind-bogglingly large number of similar systems with intelligent life, all laughing their heads (or whatever) off at your ignorance! Okay, call me an ass, call me psuedo-scientific, call me whatever comes to your mind.. I'm just saying it the way I see it.. I also believe Dougals Adams' little proof that we don't even exist! Ref : "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" Statistically speaking, that is... -- +-------------------------+------------------------------------------------ | dyett@phad.hsc.usc.edu | I will not be punched, stamped, filed, indexed, | Just my opinions! | briefed, debriefed, or numbered! -The Prisoner +-------------------------+------------------------------------------------ Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!usc!phad.hsc.usc.edu!dyett From: dyett@phad.hsc.usc.edu (Donald Yett) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Circle Hoaxers Message-ID: <35858@usc.edu> Date: 13 Sep 91 22:22:07 GMT References: <1991Sep12.151102.5470@cadence.com> Sender: news@usc.edu Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA Lines: 36 Nntp-Posting-Host: phad.hsc.usc.edu In article <1991Sep12.151102.5470@cadence.com> esanborn@gda.cadence.com (Ed Sanborn) writes: > > Seems to me, a pretty good test of there authenticity would be to keep >watch on them for several nights and if any good circles appear then you >know it wasn't them. Of course there could be others involved in there >little game but at least you could nail it down to not requiring them >single handedly. > C'mon dude... Every half-crazed person out there is going to give it a try now that they know how to do it... Serial killings go up when there is press coverage, crime goes up when there is press coverage, stupid kids write more and more computer virii when there is press coverage, One single national press release can create hundreds of imitators... I believe there are various causes for crop ccircles, and do not rule out anything, but how can any serious researcher take the field seriously with hundreds of possible imitators out there now. Topeka Kansas : "Hey, joe 'hic' pass me another beer" "Hey man, how about raising a bit of hell tonight?" "Yea, sounds good.. Hey, I have an idea!" "W-What ?" "Ya know that corn field off the highway out there?" "Yeah." "Let's make like green little martians!" "Huh?! No more beer for you!" "Nah dude, like I'm serious! Let's make some crop-circles!" "Radical! Let's do it!" I leave the rest for your imagination... -- +-------------------------+------------------------------------------------ | dyett@phad.hsc.usc.edu | I will not be punched, stamped, filed, indexed, | Just my opinions! | briefed, debriefed, or numbered! -The Prisoner +-------------------------+------------------------------------------------ Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!cherokee!teton!joe From: joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Circle Hoaxers Message-ID: <1991Sep13.231139.7203@cherokee.uswest.com> Date: 13 Sep 91 23:11:39 GMT References: <1991Sep12.151102.5470@cadence.com> <35858@usc.edu> Sender: news@cherokee.uswest.com (Telegraph Row) Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies Lines: 25 Nntp-Posting-Host: teton.uswest.com In article <35858@usc.edu> dyett@phad.hsc.usc.edu (Donald Yett) writes: >In article <1991Sep12.151102.5470@cadence.com> esanborn@gda.cadence.com (Ed Sanborn) writes: >> >> Seems to me, a pretty good test of there authenticity would be to keep >>watch on them for several nights and if any good circles appear then you >>know it wasn't them. Of course there could be others involved in there >>little game but at least you could nail it down to not requiring them >>single handedly. >> > -stuff deleted... > I am new to this group, but have a simple question. If the UFO's try so hard not to be seen (i.e. I heard that they (researchers) were staking out a field and circles appeared the next morning in the field behind them), why do they leave imprints? Further more, why is it always in a wheat/corn field, why not a potato field or some other type of field (i.e. meadow). Also one would think that the aliens would be able to gather all of the information they needed concerning corn/wheat in one visit, why on earth would they touch down so many times in the same area & type of field? I don't mean to take a stance on this issue, but these just seem to obvious to overlook. Joe Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!hrc!gtephx!forda From: forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: Dave and Doug's crop circle hoax Message-ID: <1991Sep11.201717.25579@gtephx.UUCP> Date: 11 Sep 91 20:17:17 GMT References: <91253.195627JPST55@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK> Organization: gte Lines: 19 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2016 alt.paranormal:3066 sci.skeptic:15013 Did ever occur to _any_ of you skeptics that D&D claimed to have put up a hoax because they just can't accept any other explanation? NOT that I believe, or ever did believe, that the circles were evidence of anything. Its just that a lot of you have been blasting "psi believers" because "we believe what we want to believe." I am just wondering if any skeptics have given any thought to the possibility that the hoax is a hoax? Set Sarcasm EXTREME: Now why would anyone want to get famous as the guys who fooled the world?!?!?!? -- Without either the 1st or 2nd amendment, we would have no liberty: the 1st allows us to find out whats happening, the 2nd allows us to do something about it! The 2nd will be taken away first, followed by the 1st and then the rest of our freedoms. - Andrew Ford INTERNET: gtephx!forda@asuvax.eas.asu.edu Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!phad.hsc.usc.edu!dyett From: dyett@phad.hsc.usc.edu (Donald Yett) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic Subject: Invitation for evidence Message-ID: <35865@usc.edu> Date: 14 Sep 91 01:51:12 GMT References: <91253.195627JPST55@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK> <1991Sep11.201717.25579@gtephx.UUCP> Sender: news@usc.edu Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA Lines: 62 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2017 alt.paranormal:3067 sci.skeptic:15017 Nntp-Posting-Host: phad.hsc.usc.edu Is the media prejudiced? C'mon guys, If the money for miracles guys, the real-estate riches guys, the government auction guys, the astrologers, and the hot air chicks can buy air time, so can organized UFO research.. My wish-list : a syndicated special, pref at least 2 hours long. Enough SOLID evidence to make a skeptic say "UFOs are around!" How about that guy with all the CLEAR and (supposedly) irrefutable photo- graphic evidence showing his stuff. A brief history on hoaxes. A history of classic incidents, Roswell, etc... WITH DOCUMENTATION, there has been talk about government papers being de-classified. NO BULLSHIT, nothing like the bogus movies/shows of the past, Prove they are here NOW, nowbody wants to hear about the Nasca lines again, how aliens built the pyramids, etc... If solid evidence is presented, and you are able to prove it, then you will have your hands full with people coming out of the closets with sightings. If you do not describe any aliens at all within the show(s), these people coming outta the closet will either confirm or refute the stories about Grays, if you describe a blue, fat, tall alien, people will start seeing them. I believe that some of the reports may be true, but most ARE crackpots and loonies, better yet, let this work for you, describe an outlandish alien and you can seperate the crackpots this way after the show is over and they start crawling outta the woodwork reporting aliens. If the evidence cannot be presented in one show, make a mini-series out of it. First, will the stations run it? Yes, if they run Robert Tilton, if they run "The Elvis Files" (a show some weeks ago that tried unsuccessfully to prove Elvis is alive), then they will run this.. Second, will the advertisers pay? Have you seen the ratings of "The Elvis Files"? Third, will the viewers believe? That depends on the evidence. Make it good because the people who count will be hard to convince. I would like to see this from professionals in the field, not some pseudo-scientific presentation. Sources MUST be credible. Radar traces not FAA certified (and advertized as such) can be created by any hardware hacker in his/her garage using industrial/government surplus sources. I know someone who brought this idea up one night when reading this newsgroup. He would be willing to be an organizer for such a film, financial backing must come from within the UFO research community. If you expect another "Chariots of the Gods", then go elsewhere. We are interested in REAL evidence. Any takers? Please note this is cross-posted to sci.skeptic -- +-------------------------+------------------------------------------------ | dyett@phad.hsc.usc.edu | I will not be punched, stamped, filed, indexed, | Just my opinions! | briefed, debriefed, or numbered! -The Prisoner +-------------------------+------------------------------------------------ Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen From: Don_-_Showen@cup.portal.com Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic Subject: ok Message-ID: <47042@cup.portal.com> Date: 14 Sep 91 00:20:29 GMT Organization: The Portal System (TM) Lines: 10 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2018 sci.skeptic:15018 This is John Winston posting on Don Showen s account. I just got back from the UFO Conference in Phoenix, Arizona and recorded about seven and one half hours of information. One person in particular that I got on tape is Larry Warren who is an ex-serviceman who was working at a NATO base in England a few years back. He personally examined a UFO and the encounter with it s occupants. This incident will be seen on next Wednesdays episode of Unsolved Mysteries at 8 PM. I ll leave you with this saying; It s not over till the fat lady sings. Standard Disclaimer. John. Path: ns-mx!uunet!timbuk.cray.com!cs.umn.edu!lynx!cie.uoregon.edu!christ From: christ@cie.uoregon.edu (Christian G. Smith) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Invitation for evidence Summary: A Blatant waste of Bandwidth. I should be spanked. Message-ID: <4++c64g@lynx.unm.edu> Date: 14 Sep 91 04:53:08 GMT References: <91253.195627JPST55@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK> <1991Sep11.201717.25579@gtephx.UUCP> <35865@usc.edu> Organization: Betsy's Cloaca BBS Lines: 26 I'd love to see something like that on tv, but I can't imagine it anytime in the near future. The impression I have of the television industry when it comes to UFO's can be summed up if you remember a special that Mike Farrel (sp? Used to be B.J. Honeycutt on M*A*S*H tv series) did a year or three ago. It was about two hours long and purported to "reveal new and startling evidence about aliens". Well, what it turned out to be was just another "and they have big heads, big eyes, and long fingers. And they're short, too..." crap mill. Not only that, but they went into detail as to the inner anatomical workings of the aliens and their home planet. A number of things did not jive. For instance: the aliens had supposedly evolved on a hot planet near their sun, and as they made explorations to our planet (and presumably others), they used it as thier home base. Well, what the hell is an alien with huge eyes and pale skin doing on a planet close to a sun (scorched and blinded, perhaps)? They had milked it for all the publicity it was worth, and I had been looking foreward to it for weeks. They're just too much greediness to get any REAL truth or REAL research done for a t.v. special. Distraught and going to therapy over it, -chris -- WAR IS PEACE FREEDOM IS SLAVERY IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH christ@cie.uoregon.edu Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!mips!apple!fernwood!cronos!zinfandel!eherrera From: eherrera@zinfandel.metaphor.com (Eric Herrera) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Owl memory Message-ID: <1296@cronos.metaphor.com> Date: 14 Sep 91 06:30:00 GMT Sender: news@cronos.metaphor.com Organization: Metaphor Computer Systems, Mountain View, CA Lines: 58 Originator: eherrera@zinfandel I grew up in Santa Monica, a suburb of Los Angeles. As teen-agers, my friends and I liked to drive up canyon roads into the SM mountains to admire the great vistas of the LA basin. Usually I was the one to invite a friend (occasionally a few) to accompany me to these remote spots on weekend nights to gaze at the many city lights below and at the many stars above. At those times my thoughts would turn to the awesome vastness of the universe and its mysteries. I also liked to pass the time by counting high-flying airliners and satellites. One such night stands out in my memory. My friend Bill and I drove and hiked to a favorite spot to enjoy the view and a six-pack. We called it "the Big Rock" and it was just that: a wide, nearly flat rock which was hidden from the lonely canyon road by chaparral, and ended in an abrupt drop-off of several hundred feet. The rock was very near the summit of the SM mountains. It was late summer; August or September, about 10 years ago. The night was very dark -- a new moon -- and the only illumination up there was from the stars. But my oddest memory of that night is of being menaced by huge owls which repeatedly swooped close to the tops of our heads as we sat on the edge of the rock. I never really saw the owls clearly; only as wide-winged blacknesses which blocked out eight-foot wide patches of stars as they circled and dove at us. We knew they were owls because of the distinctive cries we heard from all around. The owls rather frightened us, and we left quickly due to their harassment. I remember rationalizing the experience by saying that we had stumbled onto their nesting area and that they were just jealously protecting it. I seem to recall that there were between four and eight owls. I do not know whether owls are native to the hills of Southern California. I don't know whether they nest in or otherwise prefer rocky outcroppings. I don't know if owls live in groups. I don't know if they grow to eight-foot wing spans. I DO know that I had never seen owls there before, and I never did again. I spent many nights on that rock. Since those days I have had several experiences like the following: I wake up suddenly in the middle of the night. I am conscious, but I can't move. I feel an unusual tingling sensation all over my body and it makes me want to sleep immediately. The fear of being unable to move makes me fight the urge to sleep, and I become fully awake. Everything is quiet and in order. I can move my limbs. Eventually I calm myself and am able to sleep (without the tingling sensation). So. I don't remember ever having met a "grey." I really don't think I have. I have, however read about the owl-related "masking memory" theory. I don't know how much credence to give it. I like to think of myself as an open-minded skeptic. I would appreciate someone e-mailing to me their impressions and opinions about this. Am I overly imaginative? Am I paranoid? Or do I have something to be concerned about? Is it just that I read this news group too much? I did have a UFO sighting once, but it was very unspectacular, and I really don't think it's related to this. Please let me know what you think. Thank you. Eric... eherrera@metaphor.com Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!rutgers!orstcs!jacobs.CS.ORST.EDU!woodc From: woodc@jacobs.CS.ORST.EDU (Major Havok) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Invitation for evidence Message-ID: <1991Sep14.114455.29107@usenet@CS.ORST.EDU> Date: 14 Sep 91 11:44:55 GMT References: <1991Sep11.201717.25579@gtephx.UUCP> <35865@usc.edu> <4++c64g@lynx.unm.edu> Sender: @usenet@CS.ORST.EDU Organization: Oregon State University, CS Dept. Lines: 20 Nntp-Posting-Host: jacobs.cs.orst.edu In article <4++c64g@lynx.unm.edu> christ@cie.uoregon.edu (Christian G. Smith) writes: > > I'd love to see something like that on tv, but I can't imagine it anytime >in the near future. The impression I have of the television industry when >it comes to UFO's can be summed up if you remember a special that Mike Farrel >(sp? Used to be B.J. Honeycutt on M*A*S*H tv series) did a year or three ago. >It was about two hours long and purported to "reveal new and startling evidence >about aliens". Well, what it turned out to be was just another "and they have >big heads, big eyes, and long fingers. And they're short, too..." crap mill. I have about half or three quarters of that show recorded on video tape. It was closer to three years ago. I was also looking forward to it for some time, but was disappointed. You know they're not sincere when they flash a bunch of "900" numbers on the screen... and that background music was the worst! -- +---------------------------+----------------------------------------------+ | Chris Wood | "If you can't convince them, confuse them." | | woodc@jacobs.cs.orst.edu | -unknown | +---------------------------+----------------------------------------------+ Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!slxsys!ibmpcug!demon!news From: dingbat@cix.compulink.co.uk (Codesmiths) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Marrs & End of world in 19 Message-ID: <1991Sep14.124425.3680@demon.co.uk> Date: 14 Sep 91 12:44:25 GMT Sender: news@demon.co.uk (C-News Owner) Reply-To: Codesmiths Organization: Gated to News by demon.co.uk Lines: 30 In-Reply-To: timpson@shodha.enet.dec.com (Steve Timpson) > In article <1991Aug29.020039.29782@netcom.COM>, bryanw@netcom.COM (Bryan Woodworth) writes... > >[Christian bullshit about Armageddon '97] > > No this is not quite correct: > > In 1997 on August 28th a Super computer called Skynet will > become self aware. [Explanation of the plot of Arnie's > film, "Terminator"] Hmmm, another Arnie film taking its source material from modern UFOlogy myths. Ever seen "Total Recall", where Arnie removes a small round implant from up his nose ? "Twins", with Danny DeVito (who is probably a Grey) ? Sounds like Arnie's favourite scriptwriters all read Usenet. Whats next ? Arnie plays a physicist at SLAC who builds pyramids in his spare time ? :-) Andy Dingley dingbat@cix.compulink.co.uk +44 091 230 1695 Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!gvlf3.gvl.unisys.com!tredysvr!cellar!revpk From: revpk@cellar.UUCP (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Marrs & End of world in 1997? computers tool of Satan? Message-ID: Date: 14 Sep 91 06:19:41 GMT References: <1991Sep12.112813.25315@tcom.stc.co.uk> Sender: bbs@cellar.UUCP (The Cellar BBS) Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system Lines: 28 fsb@tcom.stc.co.uk (Frank Stuart Brown) writes: > > > David Icke recons JC was born in SEPT (constellation of VIRGO) > which is where the virgin birth myth comes from. > > > Or did a couple of time travellers give MARY some AI? > -- > --------------------------------------------------- > Frank Stuart-Brown, Dept 31700, Customer Services, > || !mcsun!ukc!stc!fsb > Tel +44 81 945 2608 || +44 924 870838 The above message was given a title regarding the possible End of the World in 1997. I was wondering, have any people on this newsgrouop seen any claims of the End of the World in print? I'm sort of collecting them for an essay. Thanks. """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Brian Siano, Delaware Valley Skeptics Rev. Philosopher-King of The First Church of the Divine Otis Redding revpk@Cellar.UUCP "Ecrasez l'enfame!" - Voltaire """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!usc!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!ai-lab!wombat.gnu.ai.mit.edu!donahue From: donahue@wombat.gnu.ai.mit.edu (Bob Donahue) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: <18202@life.ai.mit.edu> Date: 14 Sep 91 16:06:52 GMT References: <1991Sep11.195848.21288@uwm.edu> Sender: news@ai.mit.edu Organization: Waldeaux's Toy Factory --- New Location, Better View Lines: 50 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15036 alt.alien.visitors:2024 anthony@convex.csd.uwm.edu (Anthony J Stieber) writes: > It would seem unlikely that planets are unique here, but saying > outright that there are a very large numbers of planets is not > correct. It would be better to take that fraction of stars that exist > that are G class, then that fraction which are solitary (most stars are > binaries or in close clusters), then that fraction which have have > enough matter around them to form planets. We don't have the last > number at all, merely wide ranging guesses. Other numbers such as how > many of these planetary systems have Earth-like planets are even more > shakey. Well, I can offer some info on this... Current models have a hard time making "single" stars form - you usually have to end up with either a planetary system or a companion star (or more likely both with the planets coming out of the smaller eddies). That is one of the reasons the whole "Nemesis thing" is a hot topic. It isn't necessary that the star be a single star --- two stars at sufficient distance wouldn't pose a problem - say a few hundred AUs. If you were going to be less stringent about stars - you could probably extend the list to early K stars as well and late F, but nothing earlier since they evolve too quickly.... One thing you also have to include is AGE --- stars only millions of years old are likely still calming down --- planets probably haven't fully formed yet. This is one reason why I can't take much of the Pleidian stuff seriously. Life didn't begin on the Earth until well after the Sun was a billion years old --- in fact the Sun's activity up to that point may have played a VERY important part in that formation! In terms of stats --- all I can say is that there isn't any reason to believe that our solar system is "weird" for having planets. Individual stars, though seem to be quite unique when you look at them under scrutiny (spectroscopically); it is VERY hard for example to find a star that REALLY looks "just like" the Sun. One intriguing thing relating back to Visitor folklore, and adding in what (little) we do know about the solar neighborhood is that Zeta 1 and 2 Reticuli seem to be "interesting" in that they are G stars, appears to be about 6 billion years old (i.e. 20% older than the Sun), and though a binary are well-separated (400 AU --- the light from one star seen from the other would be about magnitude -9, 100x brighter than Venus, but less than the Full Moon --- you would cast a shadow from it though). Since that star system has cropped up untold times, I find it "neat" though still possibly coincidental. BBC Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!slxsys!ibmpcug!demon!news From: dingbat@cix.compulink.co.uk (Codesmiths) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Teachings by an alien visi Message-ID: <1991Sep14.181527.8568@demon.co.uk> Date: 14 Sep 91 18:15:27 GMT Sender: news@demon.co.uk (C-News Owner) Reply-To: Codesmiths Organization: Gated to News by demon.co.uk Lines: 22 In-Reply-To: pgd@compuram.bbt.se > We will now examine the different civilisations of the universe, and > in particular the higher evolved inhabitants. > > Class 1 planets: > This inhabitants of these planetary systems are to most advanced in > this universe. > > Maybe what would interest you most, are the humanoid inhabitants. > Although they are considered lower class, they are still completely > free persons. So theres still a need for Marxist dialectic out in the Pleiades then ? :-) Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!gvlf3.gvl.unisys.com!tredysvr!cellar!revpk From: revpk@cellar.UUCP (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Invitation for evidence Message-ID: <1e6083w164w@cellar.UUCP> Date: 14 Sep 91 20:00:11 GMT References: <35865@usc.edu> Sender: bbs@cellar.UUCP (The Cellar BBS) Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system Lines: 29 dyett@phad.hsc.usc.edu (Donald Yett) writes: [Lengthy proposal for solid TV show on UFOs.] I'm not going to flame any of your suggestions, but there are several points that should be addressed. My first question is whether to include skeptical analyses of the claims that would be presented in this TV special. For example, Philip Klass uncovered very persuasive evidence that the MJ-12 papers were hoaxed, and published his findings in the Skeptical Inquirer. I don't read a LOT of pro-UFO material-- I do keep up, though-- but I didn't see much discussion of Klass's findings beyond the 'Klass says this, but here's an argument against what Klass says, even though we won't say what Klass says' variety. (Lately, Jerome Clark has revised his story. He once wrote, in the "Fringes of Reason," that the MJ-12 papers have withstood scrutiny even after some "frantic" efforts by Klass. Recently, Clark wrote that the papers are probably a forgery, again without citing Klass's findings.) And, considering that many UFO believesr think that the debunkings of some UFO claims are part of the cover-up, I'd like to see how much of the skeptical viewpoint would be included on the program. I wouldn't mind seeing a balanced, pro-and-con examination myself. """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Brian Siano, Delaware Valley Skeptics Rev. Philosopher-King of The First Church of the Divine Otis Redding revpk@Cellar.UUCP "Ecrasez l'enfame!" - Voltaire """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Path: ns-mx!uunet!bonnie.concordia.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!bison!sys6626!gstimp From: gstimp@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (Gary Stimpson) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Owl memory Message-ID: Date: 14 Sep 91 19:42:43 GMT References: <1296@cronos.metaphor.com> Organization: system 6626 BBS, Winnipeg MB Lines: 50 eherrera@zinfandel.metaphor.com (Eric Herrera) scribbles: [deleted] > Since those days I have had several experiences like the following: > I wake up suddenly in the middle of the night. I am conscious, but > I can't move. I feel an unusual tingling sensation all over my body > and it makes me want to sleep immediately. The fear of being unable > to move makes me fight the urge to sleep, and I become fully awake. > Everything is quiet and in order. I can move my limbs. Eventually > I calm myself and am able to sleep (without the tingling sensation). > > Please let me know what you think. Thank you. > > Eric... eherrera@metaphor.com I've had the same experience (exactely like that) two times in the last year. The first time it happened I really freaked out, I was conscious but I couldn't move my body at all. I thought I was paralyzed, and I tryed to yell but I couldn't. It was scary, this may sound weird but I thought something was going to do something to me. I eventually pulled myself out of this state and I was FULLY awake. It scared me, but I asked my Mother about this and she said it's perfectly normal (not sure why!). Anyways, it happened to me again about 2 months or so later, and this time I didn't get scared. I just lay in my bed (eyes open) and said "Hey, it's happening again, but I'm not worried.". And that's about it! Gary PS: The other night I had a REAL weird dream. This guy in a grey space type suit was taking me down a corridor, and we went through a secret door (it looked like a wall), and he lead me into this huge room full of huge aquirirums, inside of them were all these strange creatures that I've never seen before. Some were real deformed and it looked like this was some kind of lab where strange experiments are performed. This guy turned to me and said "Have you ever dreamt about Aliens?" and I answered "YES".. so he took this kind of gun to the back of my neck and shot something into me! I walked into another room and there were all these people sitting at a table, and I noticed they had things in the back of their necks too! I started to panic and then the dream goes weird... and I escape somehow. Isn't that strange? BTW, don't nobody start saying I have one of those alien devices in me now, I checked my neck and I don't! Heh.. :) --- (Gary Stimpson) a user of sys6626, running waffle 1.64 E-mail: gstimp@sys6626.bison.mb.ca system 6626: 63 point west drive, winnipeg manitoba canada R3T 5G8 Path: ns-mx!uunet!bonnie.concordia.ca!ccu.umanitoba.ca!bison!sys6626!gstimp From: gstimp@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (Gary Stimpson) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Dreams.. Message-ID: Date: 14 Sep 91 19:47:16 GMT Organization: system 6626 BBS, Winnipeg MB Lines: 10 Well, you know when I said it was my friend who was having these dreams? Errr.. it was actually me, just wanted to think about it for awhile. Gary --- (Gary Stimpson) a user of sys6626, running waffle 1.64 E-mail: gstimp@sys6626.bison.mb.ca system 6626: 63 point west drive, winnipeg manitoba canada R3T 5G8 Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!usc!phad.hsc.usc.edu!dyett From: dyett@phad.hsc.usc.edu (Donald Yett) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Invitation for evidence Message-ID: <35890@usc.edu> Date: 15 Sep 91 02:41:56 GMT References: <35865@usc.edu> <1e6083w164w@cellar.UUCP> Sender: news@usc.edu Organization: University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA Lines: 92 Nntp-Posting-Host: phad.hsc.usc.edu In article <1e6083w164w@cellar.UUCP> revpk@cellar.UUCP (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano) writes: > I'm not going to flame any of your suggestions, but there are several >points that should be addressed. Thanks, at least you are a skeptic with an open mind. > My first question is whether to include skeptical analyses of the >claims that would be presented in this TV special. For example, Philip Klass >uncovered very persuasive evidence that the MJ-12 papers were hoaxed, and >published his findings in the Skeptical Inquirer. I don't read a LOT of >pro-UFO material-- I do keep up, though-- but I didn't see much discussion of >Klass's findings beyond the 'Klass says this, but here's an argument against >what Klass says, even though we won't say what Klass says' variety. (Lately, >Jerome Clark has revised his story. He once wrote, in the "Fringes of >Reason," that the MJ-12 papers have withstood scrutiny even after some >"frantic" efforts by Klass. Recently, Clark wrote that the papers are >probably a forgery, again without citing Klass's findings.) > > And, considering that many UFO believesr think that the debunkings of >some UFO claims are part of the cover-up, I'd like to see how much of the >skeptical viewpoint would be included on the program. > > I wouldn't mind seeing a balanced, pro-and-con examination myself. This is exactly the kind of stuff that would fit the idea. But any debunking should be done prior to the actual filming, etc.. The whole point here is to do more than just say "maybe they exist", it's to say either "yes, they exist", "no, it's a load of crap", or "there is not enough evidence to say one or the other".. This does not mean that I am interested in hearing from every loony on the street, I'm a tough judge of the facts myself. More ideas on the subject : How about if government officials can be convinced to appear (of course with total anonymity (faces obscured, voices post-processed)).. Recently there was a (possibly bogus) interview transcript with a retired general, and an active active-duty col., If the article was for real, the col. may be interested in showing up to such a filming.. After reading that one a few times, the gen would have obviously have been under survaillence if what had been said was in fact true, therefore it would be well known to those people who the col was that did the interview. Now if that case was true, the col should be really sweating it.. Maybe a little exposure can add a bit of an insurance policy. Any others out there who may have such data, objects, film, ships, beings, etc.. are invited to come forward, if the whole nation knows who you are, then how can anybody have you hit.. This assumes of course that there is some government involvement. Any government documents would of course have to be certified copies or originals, and be verifiable as such.. Government docs would also have to be as free as possible from ommissions and censorship.. If there is government involvement in any sort of cover-up (again assuming they exist, and that the government is involved) due to the length of such possible involvement, there would obviously be many people with access to some of this info.. Last of all, if one of these guys can land in my back yard, and do an interview it would really make things a lot easier! If they are reading this, they know who I am and where I am.. One word, what we are looking for is physical evidence, metaphysical will be looked at but not used. Remember SOLID pre-tested evidence! Going to the last suggestion above, if a multi-part show could be done, then we can have skeptics pick apart other stuff.. Possible scenario : Show 1 : Existing evidence for Show 2 : Existing evidence against Show 3 : Solid evidence (Whichever way it goes) This would be done with an open mind, and no pre-concieved conclusions. Everybody would have the chance to PROVE their point. If you have evidence, I WANT TO HEAR IT. EITHER WAY. If I can get enough participation in this sort of project, we can take it all the way.. The conclusions will be revealed at the end of the project to all funding parties. We will not play politics, everybody must be happy with the fact that it would be an objective study, and that one or more parties may not be satisfied with the conclusions on political terms because they can't shoot it down. The funding must come from within thhe UFO research community, the anti-UFO research community, and will help each according to the percentage of their contribution if profits are made. This discussion will be taken to EMAIL if there is anybody interested. -- +-------------------------+------------------------------------------------ | dyett@phad.hsc.usc.edu | I will not be punched, stamped, filed, indexed, | Just my opinions! | briefed, debriefed, or numbered! -The Prisoner +-------------------------+------------------------------------------------ Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Prophesy Message-ID: <75061.28D22A70@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 14 Sep 91 14:47:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - from time to time. The special thing about the one due in 1992 is that > it's the first one detected before it got anywhere near us. Normally we > only see them as they're going by or after they've passed. Can you tell me more about this one in 1992? Is that the same one that had a near-miss with us last year? Mike -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!ebraeden From: ebraeden@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Eric W Braeden) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Subject: Specific Pyramid Power book wanted Message-ID: <1991Sep16.011218.8606@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> Date: 16 Sep 91 01:12:18 GMT Sender: news@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Organization: The Ohio State University Lines: 14 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2031 alt.paranormal:3074 Originator: ebraeden@bottom.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Nntp-Posting-Host: bottom.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu I'm a collector of pyramid power books and am having trouble finding a particular one. The author was G. Patrick Flanagan and the name of the book was Beyond Pyramid Power. It was published by De Vross in Santa Monica, California some time between 1973 and 1975. As far as I know, it only came out in paperback and I think the cover was red or orange stripes. This was a follow-up to that author's original book, Pyramid Power. If one of you fine people out there has a copy of Beyond Pyramid Power in reasonably good shape and is willing to sell it, e-mail me, I'll pay any *reasonable* amount. Also, does anyone know whatever happened to Flanagan? ebraeden@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!psuvax1!psuvm!sml108 From: SML108@psuvm.psu.edu (Scott the Great) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Hologram Grey Message-ID: <91258.220650SML108@psuvm.psu.edu> Date: 16 Sep 91 02:06:50 GMT Organization: Penn State University Lines: 6 I was in Ithaca this weekend and I went to the hologram store 3D Light. There was a hologram of a woman which tore its face off to reveal a Grey underneath it as you walked by it. They're HERE! They've even got 'em on film! IN 3-D no less... Golly... Scott Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!udel!haven.umd.edu!uvaarpa!cv3.cv.nrao.edu!cv3.cv.nrao.edu!bgarwood From: bgarwood@sngldsh.cv.nrao.edu (Bob Garwood ) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: Dave and Doug's crop circle hoax Message-ID: Date: 16 Sep 91 03:37:11 GMT References: <91253.195627JPST55@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK> <1991Sep11.201717.25579@gtephx.UUCP> Sender: news@nrao.edu Organization: National Radio Astronomy Observatory Lines: 68 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2033 alt.paranormal:3075 sci.skeptic:15088 In-Reply-To: forda@gtephx.UUCP's message of 11 Sep 91 20: 17:17 GMT In article <1991Sep11.201717.25579@gtephx.UUCP> forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford) writes: Did ever occur to _any_ of you skeptics that D&D claimed to have put up a hoax because they just can't accept any other explanation? NOT that I believe, or ever did believe, that the circles were evidence of anything. Its just that a lot of you have been blasting "psi believers" because "we believe what we want to believe." I am just wondering if any skeptics have given any thought to the possibility that the hoax is a hoax? ---- Actually, it was the first thing that occured to me before I read the article. However: (1) They were observed making one crop "circle" (although, like most of these features in the crops, it wasn't a simple circle - is there a better word?). (2) Production of this circle was sufficiently fast to allow for it to have been easily produced in one evening by a very small number of people (2). (3) This circle clearly fooled someone known as a leading expert on the circles. There are several explanations for the formation of these features: (1) hoax, i.e. humans did it (2) natural/meteorological - i.e. humans didn't do it but there's no need to go beyond established science to explain them (although we will allow that perhaps the natural explanation may turn out to be something theoreticians previously thought impossible) (3) UFO or other explanation - not of this earth or science could never explain this one (perhaps this should be 2 sepearate classes, UFOS/extraterrestrials that if we only understood as much as they did we'ld view it as a natural phenomenon and PSI explanations) Of these 3 explanations: (1) has been shown to be a valid explanation in one case. This illustrates that it is possible to fool the experts. (2) I have heard mostly, I believe, anecdotal evidence that some weather/winds may produce circular patches in crops. Clearly, a simple meteoroligical explanation can not explain the extremely complex patterns observed. Therefore, for the bulk of these patterns, explanation (1) is preffered over explanation (2). A more complex explanation is necessesary plus either direct observation of a patter forming not via (1) or proof that a pattern could not have been formed via (1) [and, given that experts stated that the one case of a hoax could not have been a hoax, it will be more difficult to prove that other patterns could not be hoaxed]. (3) In order for this to be taken seriously at all, (1) some UFOS or some such weirdness not identified as natural are observed forming a pattern, or (2) similar to what I said above, proof that a pattern could not have been formed by humans. Clearly, the hoax hypothesis is by far the leading hypothesis to explain these crop patterns. (2) is a distant second, but only for the very simple patters and (3) is extremely unlikely. This ranking of explanations may change but it is clearly the current ranking. Bob Garwood, National Radio Astronomy Observatory bgarwood@nrao.edu Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!edcastle!aiai!aipna!cam From: cam@aipna.ed.ac.uk (Chris Malcolm) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: Dave and Doug's crop circle hoax Message-ID: <4675@aipna.ed.ac.uk> Date: 16 Sep 91 00:08:52 GMT References: <91253.195627JPST55@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK> <1991Sep11.201717.25579@gtephx.UUCP> Reply-To: cam@aipna.ed.ac.uk (Chris Malcolm) Organization: Dept of AI, Edinburgh University, UK. Lines: 11 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2034 alt.paranormal:3076 sci.skeptic:15093 In article <1991Sep11.201717.25579@gtephx.UUCP> forda@gtephx.UUCP (Andrew Ford) writes: >Now why would anyone want to get famous as the guys who fooled >the world?!?!?!? They are claiming the 30,000 pound reward for showing how the crop circles are made. -- Chris Malcolm cam@uk.ac.ed.aipna +44 (0)31 667 1011 x2550 Department of Artificial Intelligence, Edinburgh University 5 Forrest Hill, Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK DoD #205 Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!usc!apple!news.bbn.com!rochester!cornell!uw-beaver!milton!sumax!polari!rwing!eskimo!nanook From: nanook@eskimo.celestial.com (Robert Dinse) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Circle Hoaxers Summary: Belief Systems Message-ID: <1303@eskimo.celestial.com> Date: 16 Sep 91 02:24:57 GMT References: <1991Sep12.151102.5470@cadence.com> <1991Sep12.182014.27084@watdragon.waterloo.edu> Organization: ESKIMO NORTH (206) 367-3837 SEATTLE WA. Lines: 27 In article <1991Sep12.182014.27084@watdragon.waterloo.edu>, jsinclair@rose.waterloo.edu (Jack Sinclair) writes: > My roommate mentioned to me last night that the fellows were on a national > radio program up here in Canada. Reportedly, the vast number of circles > were explained by them as this: one (or both) of the men are artists, and > a few years back, they were at a party, mostly artist types... anyways, > a few beers, and a few laughs later, they shared their secret with some > of those at the party. They postulated that others implemented their > ideas on an independent basis, hence all the world-wide circle sightings. > Plausible? It's second hand info to me. If something does not fit in your belief system, you will find a plausible explanation for it's existance, whether it be two hoaxers that had to much beer or if that doesn't adequately explain it, a few dozen that attended a party, or if that still doesn't cut it, a few hundred who were all friends of the folks that attended the party where the hoaxers secret was shared. I don't know who or what created all of the circles. There is the possibility that they weren't all created by the same phenomena, some might be created by people, some by vortexes, some by aliens who enjoy watching earth people argue on computer nets over the origination of crop circles. I've got to figure, if it >IS< aliens, then sooner or later things will come to a head and it will be obvious. If it's hoaxers, they'll get bored and it will die out. In either event, history will play itself out and I am content to sit and wait rather than trying to rationalize it to death with zero real information. Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen From: Don_-_Showen@cup.portal.com Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts Message-ID: <47188@cup.portal.com> Date: 16 Sep 91 08:50:22 GMT References: <46869@cup.portal.com> Organization: The Portal System (TM) Lines: 105 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15095 alt.paranormal:3077 alt.alien.visitors:2036 talk.religion.newage:6819 >>The Pleiadians are a group of entities from our future being channeled by >>Barbra Marciniak. They have been coming through for over three years and >>are mainly on cassette tapes. A friend of mine went to the trouble of >>transcribing two evening worth of tapes. The transcripts present an >>entirely new concept of god(s) and of humans. I have found them to be >>inspiring and uplifting. (Thought provoking:-)) to say the least. For me >>they have given answers to many, many areas I could not find answers before. >>I offered to send them email to folks about four months ago and 35 net >>folks requested them. So now that we have our new fall crop of net folks >>I am again making the offer. They consist of six 30k files and a tape list. >>I highly recommend that people who are religious do not ask for them as they >>do not speak favorably towards religion. The Pleiadians say they are here >>to inspire us to the highest degree possible so we will wake up and start >>creating our own reality by doing this we will change our future and thereby >>change their reality. In answer to my post above I received the following questions email that I thought I would post my answers to. >1. What time period in our future are they from? They say they come from what we would call our future. They say some are from 1 million years, some from 500,000 years, some from a few hundred years in what we would call our future. Now I interpret that to mean maybe we as humans do not have a complete perspective on time. I think they could actually be a aspect of ourselves that is out of time ie. not in time as we think of it in the 3D reality we live in. >2. Do they exist now in our current time? By this I mean, are they created in the future and travel backwards or could we find some of their ancestors on Earth today? One metaphysical theory is that all time is simultaneous. They say there are earth humans who continually reincarnate on this planet and that there is the family of light who have come from the future to change this planet. The family of light has a holographically inserted past so they believe they have a past. I think that is why some like myself feel a real connection to the Pleiadians, while others think it is a bunch of bull. They often admit they are here to trick us, just as they have teachers who trick them. By trick I think they mean talk us out of our limiting beliefs about reality. For instance the religious concept of god is a good example. They say god(s) are much like going into a restaurant and ordering from a menu. That there are numerous quote gods. And unfortunately they are not all to be trusted. They use the concept of first cause and say that everything is derived or a spark from first cause even the gods. Now the problem is there are many who have forgotten their connection to first cause, even gods. And from my observation the primary purpose of religion is to convince individuals to forget their connection and empowerment from first cause and turn it over to an entity (god). >3. What are they ? eg. humans, apes or replites after x years of evolution. This brings up the idea that if it is not physical it does not exist, ie no body, no credibility. If there is one thing I would like to get across to people. It is that entities do exist in the non physical as energy. And they can be intelligent. In fact we each have non physical aspects of ourselves. One aspect survives death and reincarnates. I have observed this by assisting individuals to remember their past lives and as importantly to remember the time after a body died between lives. In all of the over 500 people I have worked with that remembered a past life they also related information that was between lives, when they were not in a body. So to me it makes a lot of since that intelligent entities can exist who are not currently in a body. As you will see from the transcript we are not evolved, we as humans were created fully evolved and some entities(gods) scrambled our DNA so we are actually using only 1/6 of our DNA the other 5/6 is idle. Hence the observation that we only use 1/10 of our brain. I feel that the exciting thing about the Pleiadian teachings is that we can fully activate our brain (DNA) and that we can do it in this lifetime. I think that the reason that our brain is 90% water is that it is mainly electromagnetic (water holds a charge). The electromagnetic part holds a template of what we think reality is. Being electrical is is possible to change it fairly easily if we choose to do so. But that does involve examining some of our most sacred beliefs. And unfortunately most people would rather die than change their beliefs. Included in the concept of sacred beliefs is facts, as I have said in a past posting facts are nothing but petrified beliefs. >4. Why do they want us to change the present ? Is it to their benefit or ours? Both! By changing our present they mean, taking back our power, our sovereignty, our connection to and empowerment from first cause. Now that is tremendously exciting. Because what they are saying is that we are each empowered by the same first cause energy that everything else is empowered by. Meaning we do and can create any reality we want to with exactly the same energy and power first cause uses in creating all that is. We are literally gods in bodies, nothing less, except what we believe ourselves down to be. So the Pleiadians say there is a probable future that has tyranny in it. Which noticing our current reality is not to hard to believe. I have noticed quite a bit of tyranny currently on this planet. :-) (To say the least). So it makes sense that it is going to continue into the future unless something is done about it. The truly exciting thing is that all each of us need to do is wake up to who we are, stop giving our power away and start creating the reality we want as sovereign entities. An affirmation or tip that the Pleiadians give is to repeat the following In joy, saftey, harmony and sexuality I step into the unknown. Don Showen PS I have had at least 12 requests for the transcripts bounce. Now I am not sure whether it is an email problem, my lack of understanding of email, or cranks sending me bad addresses. So if you have not received the transcripts try again. From now on before sending the seven files that may bounce back, I will send a confirmation email that you will have to acknowledge before I send the seven files. DS Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!willee.enet.dec.com!fretts From: fretts@willee.enet.dec.com (Carole Fretts) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Owl memory Message-ID: <27476@nntpd.lkg.dec.com> Date: 16 Sep 91 14:02:55 GMT Sender: news@nntpd.lkg.dec.com Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 18 In article , gstimp@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (Gary Stimpson) writes... >eherrera@zinfandel.metaphor.com (Eric Herrera) scribbles: > It *is* normal to have the experience of waking in the middle of the night and being paralyzed for a short period of time. This has happened to me once. My situation was that something was happening in a dream that I didn't like, so I pulled myself out of the dream and woke myself up only to find that I could not move or speak, but was fully awake! Very strange sensation! Turns out that, if a person wakes up during a certain segment of the sleep cycle, their bodies are still in this paralyzed state which is a normal occurrence during very deep sleep. It's a safety mechanism of sorts during sleep, but the conscious mind has a hard time dealing with it because it is rare to be conscious/awake during it. If you *do* wake up in that state, the body takes a little time to kick out of it. Carole Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!ukma!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!ysub!psuvm!cunyvm!rowhc From: ROWHC@CUNYVM.BITNET Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Wheat Circles and Confessors Message-ID: <91259.062000ROWHC@CUNYVM.BITNET> Date: 16 Sep 91 10:20:00 GMT References: Organization: City University of New York/ University Computer Center Lines: 24 I agree with the Chuckmeister when he says that the hoaxsters in UK who claim to be behind the crop circles are probably hoaxing. If they claim to be hoaxsters, why should anyone believe them? Also, there was a circle found not long ago in Kissena Park, which is a run-down lot in Flushing, Queens. Queens is a borough of NYC. I bet those two clowns never heard of Flushing. These circles have been spotted on many continents. By the way, this posting itself is a hoax. (just kidding...) Rob Walters Adventure Editor Spheric (CUNY Science Newspaper) 695 Park Ave. New York, NY 10021 (212) 772-4279 "A carrot is as close as a rabbit gets to a diamond" -Don Van Vliet Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!mixcom!jjwwjj From: jjwwjj@mixcom.COM (Robotic Systems) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: VAN HALEN SONG: ABOUT ALIENS? Message-ID: <1634@mixcom.COM> Date: 16 Sep 91 15:18:06 GMT Distribution: usa Organization: Milwaukee Information eXchange (Public access Usenet, Email) Lines: 16 I asked this a couple of days back, but got no reply. I hope no one minds that I ask it again: Does anyone know if the song "Love Comes Walking In" is a about aliens? I don't know if that is the real name of the song, but that is the most often repeated phrase. Anyway, I was listening to the words and a lot of the song seems to deal with aliens. What does Sammy Hagar know? Is Sammy Hagar a GREY with hair? -- =============================================================================== Clint Laskowski Post Office Box 552, Cudahy, Wisconsin 53110-0552 ROBOTIC SYSTEMS INTERNET: robots@mixcom.com VOICE: (414) 769-9332 =============================================================================== Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!hri.com!ukma!ra!cee1 From: cee1@ra.MsState.Edu (The Chuckmeister) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Wheat Circles and Confessors Message-ID: Date: 16 Sep 91 17:55:43 GMT References: <91259.062000ROWHC@CUNYVM.BITNET> Lines: 48 ROWHC@CUNYVM.BITNET hoaxes with: >I agree with the Chuckmeister when he says that the hoaxsters in UK >who claim to be behind the crop circles are probably hoaxing. >If they claim to be hoaxsters, why should anyone believe them? >Also, there was a circle found not long ago in Kissena Park, >which is a run-down lot in Flushing, Queens. >Queens is a borough of NYC. I bet those two clowns never heard of >Flushing. These circles have been spotted on many continents. >By the way, this posting itself is a hoax. >(just kidding...) Hmmm circles in a park..... hmmm is it just grass or something? I remember a previous post.. why is all these things happening in JUST wheat fields?? Why not corn, soybean, milo, beans, etc?? More unmarked black helicopters around the other night. Sheeez. The CHCKMEISTER >Rob Walters >Adventure Editor >Spheric (CUNY Science Newspaper) >695 Park Ave. >New York, NY 10021 >(212) 772-4279 >"A carrot is as close as a rabbit gets to a diamond" > -Don Van Vliet -- +------------------------------------------\\ ------------- | Internet: cee1@Ra.MsState.Edu \\ -------------------- | Bitnet: cee1@MSSTATE.BITNET >> Jesus Christ is Lord | Real Identity: Charles Edward Evans // -------------------- +------------------------------------------// -------------- "But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call HERESY, so worship I the God of my fathers, BELIEVING ALL THINGS which are WRITTEN in the law and in the prophets." -- Acts 24:14 Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!psuvax1!rutgers!cbmvax!amix!anuurn!ffoire From: ffoire@anuurn.UUCP (Jeff Orrok) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Research in space alien impact methods. Message-ID: <384@anuurn.UUCP> Date: 16 Sep 91 19:29:15 GMT References: <0cnxgbe00Uh7A4nCYw@andrew.cmu.edu> Organization: the Hani homeworld. (Wilmette, IL) Lines: 14 ms6i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Mark Francis Stramaglia) writes: > CC:samuel ward [...incoherent ramblings deleted...] Normally I wouldn't do this, but the post came from Carnegie Mellon, which I *thought* was a top-flight school. Mr. Stramaglia, get off the bennies and take a course in writing (and maybe english) before you post again. je -- "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" -- marx "From each according to his naivete, to each according to his greed" -- me --ffoire@anuurn.home.nwu.edu --ffoire@anuurn.chi.il.us Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!slxsys!ibmpcug!robobar!stl!stc!fsb From: fsb@tcom.stc.co.uk (Frank Stuart Brown) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Semjase and the Pleiadeans Message-ID: <1991Sep15.094530.11563@tcom.stc.co.uk> Date: 15 Sep 91 09:45:30 GMT References: <1991Sep7.101027.20300@tcom.stc.co.uk> <91256.151534IO10081@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> Sender: news@tcom.stc.co.uk (System Administration) Reply-To: fsb@tcom.stc.co.uk (Frank Stuart Brown) Organization: STC Telecomms, New Southgate, London, N11 1HB Lines: 18 In article <91256.151534IO10081@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> IO10081@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (The Xanadian) writes: >In article <1991Sep7.101027.20300@tcom.stc.co.uk>, fsb@tcom.stc.co.uk (Frank >Stuart Brown) says: >> >> >>Quel un croc du merde! >> > >..............mmmoooOOOOOOOoo!! pvfthffhthvfft! Sorry Quelle une crocke de la merde! -- Frank Stuart-Brown, Dept 31700, Customer Services, || !mcsun!ukc!stc!fsb fsb%antelope.tcom.stc.co.uk@cs.ucl.ac.uk Tel +44 81 945 2608 || +44 924 870838 Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!icdoc!ibmassc!rob From: rob@aixssc.ibm.co.uk (Robert Trevelyan) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Doug and Dave on hoaxes Message-ID: <1991Sep16.201907.25325@aixssc.ibm.co.uk> Date: 16 Sep 91 20:19:07 GMT Sender: rob@aixssc.ibm.co.uk (Robert Trevelyan) Organization: IBM AIX Systems Support Centre, UK. Lines: 137 In England the crop circle season is now over as just about all fields have been harvested. Recent events have brought about details of a ministerial meeting in London about a year ago when Margaret Thatcher was still PM.(though she was not present at the meeting).The purpose of the meeting was to discuss Crop Circles and three ministeries were involved in this namely Defence, Agriculture and Environment. It was agreed at this meeting that the cause of Crop Circles was completely unknown and and the meteological theory was *out of hand* and that all crop circles were *not* hoaxes although there had obviously been a fair few hoaxes. Responsibility for keeping a watch on crop circle developments was handed over to the Ministry of Defence whose brief was to take *appropriate action*. The MOD were to update the other two ministries but during this meeting the word "disinformation" was mentioned on several occasions.The above details were passed on by someone who attended the meeting. During the last few weeks it appears as if this disinformation campaign has actually started by the arrival of Dave and Doug. There is at present no way of finding out who is behind the disinformation campaign but it is certainly being seen to happen.The newspaper "Today" has now produced two gents in the 60's who claim to have been creating crop circles for the last 13 years.They can obviously only fool a few people with these claims as even if all crop circles were hoaxes two people of any age would not be able to create formations all over the English countryside let alone the world. The assertation by the Today newspaper, famous for quoting that the 1990 pictogram at Alton Barnes was a Sumarian warning to double your wells as there was going to be a drought,(could have been mistaken for oil wells in the Gulf that needed the warning), that this explains the crop circle phenomenon is absurd. The scam relied largely on catching one of the leading Circles experts in a trap which was carefully laid for him. This was undertaken by a informing Pat Delgado that a strange crop circle formation had appeared in a field in Sevenoaks, Kent, England, the paper said they believed it to be a hoax and that the farmer also was sure it was a hoax. They asked if Pat D would give a professional opinion. Pat Delgado agreed and travelled to Ightham near Sevenoaks and was taken to see the formation which, to his amazement, was an "insectogram" formation closely resembling the ones in the Hampshire in June and July of this year. All the features were present of the usual "insectogram" although imperfect but Pat D gave his unqualified blessing which was recorded on tape and he was filmed in the formation by a camera crew in a helicopter. The trap had closed in on him. The Today newspaper then waited until Sunday before bringing two alleged hoaxers, Dave and Doug to Pat Delgado's house.There they confronted him with a film taken of the two hoaxers making the formation in Kent that Pat D had said was genuine.They claimed to have been faking circles for 13 years near Winchester and so on..Pat Delgado had to then make any concessions that the Today newspaper demended of him. It is interesting to find that at a later stage of the confrontation Colin Andrews appeared and fought back by cross-questioning Doug and Dave. He soon found that they were unable to answer many questions and their minders withdrew them before their case was badly damaged. Obviously at the stage the irreparable damage had been done to Pat Delgado's reputation but nevertheless no concrete evidence had been presented that Dave and Doug had faked any other known circle or pictogram apart from the bogus one at Kent which has been conveniently removed in the meantime by harvesting. The two appeared on TV on Monday to demonstrate to the press and the TV how they create such a formation in a wheatfield in Chilgrove, Sussex.The dumb-bell formation which they produced was a pathetic mess and could be clearly seen on TV as such although the two hoaxers complained that was due to over-ripe wheat. The story in the Today Newspaper originated from a shadowy outfit called "MBF Services" who suplied the story to Today and have doubtlessly paid Dave and Doug, also indemnifying them against all lawsuits and claims of criminal damage from Hampshire farmers. MBF Services have been tracked down to an accomodation address in Shepton Mallet near Bristol, England and are registered clients of an expensive up-market firm of accountants, Barclay Jackson. All attempts to identify the people behind MBF Services have failed and the Today will either side-step or remain silent. The firm of accountants describe their clients as a "scientific research and development" company but obviously what or whoever is behind this front has a great deal of financial backing. Undoubtedly this is infact a well organised and long planned attempt to rubbish the crop circle phenomenon and may even turn out to be government-inspired but when the 1992 season brings its new crop then this fiasco will end. I have personally met both Dave and Doug about 2 years ago at the site of of a formation near Winchester. Dave is retired and has a hobby of recording bird songs on a portable tape machine. He told me,whilst at the side of the A272 main road that passes by Cheesefoot Head Winchester,that he had been wandering through some crop fields recording bird songs back in the 1970's when he came across a flattened swirled area of corn. A bit amazed he wandered around the formation trying to ascertain what it was and unknowingly left his tape recording. Basically when he played back the tape after he had been in the crop circle he heard voices on a tape which was a brand new tape previously, the voices were not heard whilst he was alone in the formation but nevertheless he claimed he recognised the voices as a converstion he had had 30 years previously. I am not sure how he knows this or even if I believe what he told me but it kinda shows he did not hoax crop circles back then and was very enthusiastic about the crop circle we were by at the time and could offer no explaination of how it had been created. Doug was the more genial of the two he said at the time, back in 1990, that he "could just imagine them [UFO's] darting between two clouds", that were at the time directly over Winchester, "and creating a crop circle" The day was very overcast and the clouds were the dark grey variety we get quite a bit in the UK but there was a bright gap between two of these. He definatley gave me the impression he was interested in UFO's and the like and said to have taken photographs of crop circles (plain circles) back as far as tha mid 70's but I never saw any of these. One thing that really struck me is that they were not very pleased with either Pat Delgado or Colin Andrews as they believe they (PD and CA) had not given Don Tuesley, one of the original crop circle researchers, any thanks for his help in the then current book "Circular Evidence". Dave and Doug believed that the fame had gone to both Pat Delgado's and Colin Andrews heads and that they did not give anyone else any credit for help they received. I know both Pat Delgado and Colin Andrews and totally disagree that this is the case as they go out of their way to credit any photos or information received from anyone. I have had the privilege of having a mention in their book "Crop Circles- The latest Evidence" for finding the first pictogram, although Pat D seems to call me Bob and adds an extra L. I am not alone in being credited with information or photos as one can see in their books. Sorry to waffle a bit but my opinion is that Dave and Doug are off their trolley and I do not believe all crop circles are hoaxes by "D+D hoaxes" or not. There is a genuine phenomenon and it is not a vortex, note that D+D never claimed to have created any formations in Wiltshire. PS. If you see a grey Nissan Sunny by the side of a field with two gents in their 60's in it thats Dave and Doug hoaxers extraordinaire. +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ | DISCLAIMER: | | The views expressed in this document are not a corporate view | | nor reflect the views of my employer by any means but are my | | own personal views on this subject . | | | | Robert Trevelyan UKnet: rob@aixssc.ibm.co.uk | | AIX Communications VNET: TREVELR at BASVM2 | | Voice: +44-(0)256-56144 | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+ Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!cronos!zinfandel!eherrera From: eherrera@zinfandel.metaphor.com (Eric Herrera) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: VAN HALEN SONG: ABOUT ALIENS? Message-ID: <1301@cronos.metaphor.com> Date: 16 Sep 91 21:40:32 GMT References: <1634@mixcom.COM> Sender: news@cronos.metaphor.com Distribution: usa Organization: Metaphor Computer Systems, Mountain View, CA Lines: 22 > >Does anyone know if the song "Love Comes Walking In" is a about aliens? I don't >know if that is the real name of the song, but that is the most often repeated >phrase. Anyway, I was listening to the words and a lot of the song seems to >deal with aliens. > I think the chorus to "Love Comes Walking In" goes something like: ...And then you sense a change And nothing seems the same Your life is re-arranged (?) Love comes walking in Some kind of alien Comes in and pulls a string (something I can't remember offhand) Love comes walking in... The second verse (I think) also mentions something like "bright lights above" (whatever), but I think it's purely a love song using the "alien" theme as a metaphor for the unexpectedness and transformation of love and yes Sammy Hagar is a grey (but he's wearing a wig). Eric P. Herrera... eherrera@metaphor.com Path: ns-mx!uunet!news.larc.nasa.gov!vab02.larc.nasa.gov!smd From: smd@vab02.larc.nasa.gov (Steve M. Dahmen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Owl memory Message-ID: Date: 17 Sep 91 01:28:13 GMT References: <1296@cronos.metaphor.com> Sender: news@news.larc.nasa.gov (USENET Network News) Organization: NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton, VA Lines: 58 In-Reply-To: gstimp@sys6626.bison.mb.ca's message of 14 Sep 91 19: 42:43 GMT In article gstimp@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (Gary Stimpson) writes: > eherrera@zinfandel.metaphor.com (Eric Herrera) scribbles: > > [deleted] > > > Since those days I have had several experiences like the following: > > I wake up suddenly in the middle of the night. I am conscious, but > > I can't move. I feel an unusual tingling sensation all over my body > > and it makes me want to sleep immediately. The fear of being unable > > to move makes me fight the urge to sleep, and I become fully awake. > > Everything is quiet and in order. I can move my limbs. Eventually > > I calm myself and am able to sleep (without the tingling sensation). > > > > Please let me know what you think. Thank you. > > > > Eric... eherrera@metaphor.com > > > I've had the same experience (exactely like that) two times in the last > year. The first time it happened I really freaked out, I was conscious > but I couldn't move my body at all. I thought I was paralyzed, and I > tryed to yell but I couldn't. It was scary, this may sound weird but I > thought something was going to do something to me. I eventually pulled > myself out of this state and I was FULLY awake. It scared me, but I > asked my Mother about this and she said it's perfectly normal (not sure > why!). Anyways, it happened to me again about 2 months or so later, and > this time I didn't get scared. I just lay in my bed (eyes open) and said > "Hey, it's happening again, but I'm not worried.". And that's about it! > Gary I think what you experienced was being only partway in your body... It's quite common. perhaps some small noise or body feeling pulled you back, but not "enough back" to gain motor control. It's natural to want to go back to sleep, because that's the easiest way to get back in the body "right". Or, you can, through your will, force it to happen like Eric did. You feel vulnerable mostly because you don't know what's going on. Another related phenomena is coming in "half way" into your body, where you feel just so sleepy and out of it (literally) all day long... coordination is difficult, thinking is difficult.... and all it takes is a half hour nap and BOING you're ready to roll. The half out experience happens to me when someone/thing wakes me very suddenly, or I nap at an unusual time. Hope this helps.... steve. -- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Steve Dahmen, Systems Analyst (804) 864-4519 (W) Vigyan Research, Inc .- NASA Langley Research Center Internet: smd@vab01.larc.nasa.gov Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!udel!gatech!emory!ra!tlb1 From: tlb1@ra.MsState.Edu (Spellweaver) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts Message-ID: <1669@ra.MsState.Edu> Date: 17 Sep 91 03:05:59 GMT References: <46869@cup.portal.com> <47188@cup.portal.com> Followup-To: sci.skeptic Organization: Mississippi State University Lines: 5 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15127 alt.paranormal:3082 alt.alien.visitors:2046 talk.religion.newage:6831 physically/unphysically to be? That info about beings not having to have a physical body, et cetera, was very nice and informative, but it didn't answer the question. I would assume from your answer that they are beings of energy, but I hate to make assumptions on tricky subjects. So, please re-answer. Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!uniwa!hartley From: hartley@maths.uwa.oz.au (Mike H) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Wheat Circles and Confessors Keywords: HOAX? Message-ID: <1991Sep17.035232.24328@uniwa.uwa.oz.au> Date: 17 Sep 91 03:52:32 GMT References: Sender: news@uniwa.uwa.oz.au (USENET News System) Organization: University of Western Australia Lines: 6 Nntp-Posting-Host: madvax.maths.uwa.oz.au According to the corn-circles article published in the West Australian Newspaper, the two chaps got the idea from the place they grew up in, in Queensland, Australia, where in the late '50s to early '60s the circles were done regularly as a joke. Frankly, I find this quite plausible. Yours, Mike H. Path: ns-mx!uunet!lll-winken!iggy.GW.Vitalink.COM!widener!gvlf3.gvl.unisys.com!tredysvr!cellar!revpk From: revpk@cellar.UUCP (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts Message-ID: <7Hae92w164w@cellar.UUCP> Date: 17 Sep 91 01:40:29 GMT References: <47188@cup.portal.com> Sender: bbs@cellar.UUCP (The Cellar BBS) Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system Lines: 52 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15130 alt.paranormal:3083 alt.alien.visitors:2048 talk.religion.newage:6832 Dan, I've read the transcripts you've posted, and I'm perfectly willing to believe that they come from a higher form of intelligence. However, I'm going to require proof. And I have a test that would be satisfactory proof. I'd like to ask the Pleidians if they can solve a small math problem for me. In a system of logic, one is required to evaluate a statement of number theory as True or False. (For example, 1+1=2 is True within the standard math we're all taught, but one can easily prove the statement 2+2=5 to be demonstrably False within this system.) Now, there are some statements of number theory that, as of yet, we have not been able to prove to be either True or False. Such if fermat's Last Theorem. Essentially, the statement is this: For integers x,y, and z, there exists no solution for the following equation if n > 2. The equation is (x^n) + (y^n) = (z^n). For example, if n=2, we can find whole numbers for x,y and z that mke a true statement of number theory, as follows: (3^2) + (4^2) = (5^2) 9 + 16 = 25 But, if n is gREATER than two, there are apparently no whole numbers we can plug into x,y or z that make the equation true. The problem is this; there's no existing proof for this. There may be integers we haven't tried yet that make the equation work. But we can't disprove that statement above either. My question is this: Can the Pleiadians either prove or disprove that, for integers x,y and z, there exists no soluton for the equation (x^n)+(y^n)=(z^n) where n>2? If they can provide a proof, they would be providing us with knowledge currently unknown by man... but knowledge that _can_ be verified empirically. And I'd be surprised if a higher intelligence could lower itself to perform symbolic logic. Solve it, and you've got a convert. (Maybe even a Nobel.) """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Brian Siano, Delaware Valley Skeptics Rev. Philosopher-King of The First Church of the Divine Otis Redding revpk@Cellar.UUCP "Ecrasez l'enfame!" - Voltaire """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!ibmchs!auschs!d75!awdprime!woofer.austin.ibm.com!craigb From: craigb@woofer.austin.ibm.com (Craig Becker) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Owl memory -> Sleep Paralysis Message-ID: <11124@awdprime.UUCP> Date: 16 Sep 91 17:41:00 GMT References: <1296@cronos.metaphor.com> Sender: news@awdprime.UUCP Reply-To: craigb@ot.austin.ibm.com Organization: IBM Object Technology Products Lines: 87 In article , gstimp@sys6626.bison.mb.ca (Gary Stimpson) writes: > eherrera@zinfandel.metaphor.com (Eric Herrera) scribbles: > > > Since those days I have had several experiences like the following: > > I wake up suddenly in the middle of the night. I am conscious, but > > I can't move. I feel an unusual tingling sensation all over my body > > I've had the same experience (exactely like that) two times in the last > year. The first time it happened I really freaked out, I was conscious > but I couldn't move my body at all. I thought I was paralyzed, and I > tryed to yell but I couldn't. It was scary, this may sound weird but I > thought something was going to do something to me. I eventually pulled > myself out of this state and I was FULLY awake. I believe that what you were both experiencing is a sleep disorder known prosaically as "Sleep Paralysis"...you can look it up in any decent book on sleep disorders. I had attacks of this nature for several years and eventually did some research on it (was happy to find that I didn't have some kinda weird brain tumor :-). Currently I'll have 2 or 3 episodes every 2 months or so. No real hard statistics exist, but it's believed that a fairly large percentage of people have experienced SP; not all of them remember it. Sleeping in an uncomfortable place or position seems somewhat conducive to bringing on the experience. Since I figured out what it was, I've encountered several people who have also had bouts with SP (they're usually surprised to hear about it, and happy to know that they're "normal"). What usually happens is that you are asleep and suddenly become conscious but unable to move. There is often a very harsh, loud, buzzing sound that seems to come from "inside the ear". Occasionally there will be tactile hallucinations, such as that of being touched. Often there will be visual hallucinations...a friend of mine claims that he saw his dead grandfather standing at the foot of his bed during a SP experience. Myself, I often have the feeling that I'm having an "out-of-body" experience...no, I don't think it's for real, just a consequence of being scared and wanting to move and I'll hallucinate for a brief period of time that I am indeed moving, walking around, etc. Then I'll suddenly snap back to being paralyzed and in bed again. All of this is usually accompanied by a very intense sensation of fear; the characterization above that "I thought something was going to do something to me" is a pretty good description. As a piece of trivia, SF/math writer Rudy Rucker has some experience with SP...his novel _White Light_ never mentions it explicitly but he told me that some of it was based on SP experiences he's had. Anyway, the (admittedly non-rigorous) scientific explanation of this phenomenon is that there is some kind of virtual "switch" that connects one's brain to one's body, and that when we sleep, this switch is "opened", thus keeping us from flopping around in bed while dreaming that we're running away from a pack of dill-pickle wielding fire lizards. Occasionally (for reasons as yet to be determined), we "awaken" without closing the switch. It's been awhile since I've looked any of this stuff up...if anyone has any better/more current information, I'd like to hear from them. :opinion on I often wonder if SP is responsible for what people call "out-of-body experiences"...it's hard to describe if you've never felt it, but if you ever have, you know what I mean. Also have my suspicions as to whether or not SP is responsible for any reported "ghost" sightings, such as my friend claims to have had. And there are some small similarities between SP and Elizabeth Kubler-Ross's (sp?) "near-death" experiences. :opinion off Anyway, hope this has proved to be interesting to some of you. Craig ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Craig Becker, Object Technology Products -- -- "As far back as I can remember, Internet: craigb@ot.vnet.ibm.com -- -- I always wanted to be a gangster." Austin: craigb@ot.austin.ibm.com -- -- - Henry Hill VNET: CRAIGB at AUSVM1 -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- off 808/1K-020 zip 3008 ph (512) 823-1756 tl 793-1756 hm (512) 346-5397 -- -- IBM Personal Systems Programming, 11400 Burnet Road, Austin, TX, 78759 -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: VAN HALEN SONG: ABOUT ALIENS? Message-ID: <1991Sep17.042737.6527@bilver.uucp> Date: 17 Sep 91 04:27:37 GMT References: <1634@mixcom.COM> Distribution: usa Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 31 In article <1634@mixcom.COM> jjwwjj@mixcom.COM (Robotic Systems) writes: >I asked this a couple of days back, but got no reply. I hope no one minds that >I ask it again: > >Does anyone know if the song "Love Comes Walking In" is a about aliens? I don't >know if that is the real name of the song, but that is the most often repeated >phrase. Anyway, I was listening to the words and a lot of the song seems to >deal with aliens. > >What does Sammy Hagar know? Is Sammy Hagar a GREY with hair? > > ROTF! Other than the "skeptics" explanations for the "crop circles", this was the BEST joke I've seen all week. :-) Sammy Hagar a Grey? Nahhhhh Right..."Could you please pass the GREY Poupon, Sammmy?" Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: The Continuum Message-ID: <75173.28D522DE@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 16 Sep 91 00:56:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - Date: 17 Sep 91 14:42:26 GMT Organization: system 6626 BBS, Winnipeg MB Lines: 10 Thanks for the info everybody (about Sleep Paralysis)! It was very interesting, now I can feel a bit more normal . I've only experienced this twice, and also have had 2 OBE experiences. All I can say is "AWESOME!". It was great.. but this has nothing to do with Aliens, so I'll stop. --- (Gary Stimpson) a user of sys6626, running waffle 1.64 E-mail: gstimp@sys6626.bison.mb.ca system 6626: 63 point west drive, winnipeg manitoba canada R3T 5G8 Path: ns-mx!uunet!infonode!ingr!b17a!brock From: brock@b17a.ingr.com (James Brock) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Pleiadian Transcripts Keywords: DON SHWEN Message-ID: <1991Sep17.200347.25238@b17a.ingr.com> Date: 17 Sep 91 20:03:47 GMT Organization: Intergraph Lines: 13 Would DON SHOWEN please send me the PLEIADIAN TRANSCRIPTS? I am unable to find your EMAIL address, but please send the material to me. THANKS, JAMES -- ################################################################ James A. Brock, Jr. Post office Box 859, Huntsville, AL 35804 "All opinions/facts are mine, belong to no other entity" Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!strath-cs!glasgow!degnans From: degnans@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk (Stephen Degnan) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: X the bodydigger is back, folks...SO WATCH OUT! Summary: Well.... Keywords: X, FROG, BELGUIM BEER, MOUSTACHE Message-ID: <1991Sep17.140230.28286@dcs.glasgow.ac.uk> Date: 17 Sep 91 14:02:30 GMT Organization: Glasgow University Computing Science Dept. Lines: 11 YESsurrreeeeFOLKS: I have it from my European sources, that X, the bodydigger is on his way back from France, via Belgium. (notices the similarity to NATIONAL LAMPOONS EUROPEAN VACATION?...did you also notices that it you play the works "Chevy Chase" backwards with a flanging effect you can almost hear the words "X the bodydigger"?) Anyway....he'll be back in Glasgow soon. So be careful out there, dudes. And remember. Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!jmilhoan From: jmilhoan@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Jason T Milhoan) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Owl memory -> Sleep Paralysis Message-ID: <1991Sep17.232703.25482@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu> Date: 17 Sep 91 23:27:03 GMT References: <1296@cronos.metaphor.com> <11124 Sender: news@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Organization: The Ohio State University Lines: 8 Nntp-Posting-Host: bottom.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu I have experienced sleep paralysis, but usually it occurs when I try to induce an out of body experience. In fact, they are very scary. I haven't been able to achieve an OBE due to the hallucinations (????) associated with SP for about 5 or 6 years. I dont thinkt it is an entirely mental thing, but probably some connections to "the dark side" :-) jmilhoan Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen From: Don_-_Showen@cup.portal.com Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic Subject: Mt. Shasta Pt.1 Message-ID: <47271@cup.portal.com> Date: 18 Sep 91 00:13:59 GMT Organization: The Portal System (TM) Lines: 13 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2056 sci.skeptic:15168 This information has been posted for John Winston by Don Showen. In my last trip to Phoenix for the UFO Conference I had the opportunity to tape an couple of people named Shield and Sharula Dux. They claim to be from a city underneath Mt. Shasta called Telos. This city has one and one half million people. They claim to have been there for the last l4 thousand years when they came from Lemuria in the Pacific after it sunk beneath the ocean. The man is from New England, in America but the lady was born in Telos. They do operate some of the space ships that are seen in our skies. The overall leader of their space fleet is called Ashtar and a command of one of their fleet called the Silver fleet is called Anton. I ll leave you with this saying; Anybody who s as sound as a dollar these days had better see a doctor. Standard Disclaimer. John. Path: ns-mx!uunet!van-bc!ubc-cs!unixg.ubc.ca!merlin.ucs.ubc.ca!westfall From: westfall@merlin.ucs.ubc.ca (Valerie Westfall) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Doug and Dave on hoaxes Message-ID: <1991Sep18.050005.2604@unixg.ubc.ca> Date: 18 Sep 91 05:00:05 GMT References: <1991Sep16.201907.25325@aixssc.ibm.co.uk> Sender: news@unixg.ubc.ca (Usenet News Maintenance) Reply-To: westfall@merlin.ucs.ubc.ca (Valerie Westfall) Organization: University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C., Canada Lines: 8 Nntp-Posting-Host: merlin.ucs.ubc.ca Yes, I too find it hard to imagine Doug and Dave travelling furiously around the world creating circles in foreign crops. Uh, like maybe other people have been trying to make crop circles too. :-) Maybe this explains why crop circles in other countries, for example Canada, are quite rough and even primitive in comparison to recent formations in England. Find me a complex formation (ie. an insectogram) in a country where no circles have previously appeared and THEN I'll be impressed. Maybe you should check Doug and Dave's passports while you're at it...(:-))2 Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: FILE: Circle Bibliography - MUFON file Message-ID: <1991Sep18.031424.24825@bilver.uucp> Date: 18 Sep 91 03:14:24 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 549 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2058 alt.conspiracy:7178 sci.skeptic:15179 With all the ruckus that has been stirred up lately by cries of "It's all a hoax!" in the crop circle threads in various newsgroups, I'm presenting this file so you can source the included publications and learn that there's more to this phenomenon that has been going on for over 400 years than just "2 old geezers with a board did it". -----begin included text ------------------------------------------- Circles of Note: Bibliography on the Crop Circles Updated June 9, 1991 Michael Chorost Bibliographies always look rather dry. However, a careful reader can learn much from this one, since many of the entries have parentheti- cal summaries attached to them. Also, a close look at the topics will reveal the diversity of the crop circles phenomenon and the responses it has gathered. Finally, the sections on books, magazines, and studies include price and ordering information, where known. I should note two sets of exclusions. First, I have not indexed articles from journals devoted to cerealogy. Much of the best information has been printed in their pages; back numbers can often be obtained by writing to the editors. Second, I have tended to include newspaper arti- cles only of particular interest or informativeness, such as ones reporting circles in detail, non-English circles, or noteworthy points of view. Inclusion in this bibliography does not imply endorsement. I am indebted to my contacts and colleagues in England, Canada, and the United States, who generously sent me many of the articles listed here. I would be grateful to receive any corrections and additions, which will be included in future updates. Contact me at: Michael Chorost North American Circle P.O. Box 61144 Durham, NC 27715-1144 All items listed alphabetically by author. Books Circular Evidence. Pat Delgado and Colin Andrews. London: Bloomsbury Press, 1989. 190 pp. US price $29.95 hardcover, $14.95 softcover. At least three sources: (1) Phanes Press, P.O. Box 6114, Grand Rapids, MI 49516, tel. (800) 678-0392. (2) Arcturus Book Services, P.O. Box 831383, Stone Mountain, Georgia, 30083-0023, tel. (404) 297-4624. (3) Trafalgar Square, Vermont, NY, tel. (802) 457-1911. Crop Circles: The Latest Evidence. Pat Delgado and Colin Andrews. London: Bloomsbury Press, 1990. 80 pp. UK L5.99, US $13.95. Ordering information as above. The Controversy of the Circles. Paul Fuller and Jenny Randles. UK L4.20. BUFORA, 103 Hove Avenue, Walthamstow, London. Crop Circles: A Mystery Solved. Paul Fuller and Jenny Randles. London: Robert Hale Ltd, 1990, 250 pp. UK L13.95, US $30.95 (from Arcturus Books, see entry for Circular Evidence above.) The UFO Report 1990. Edited by Timothy Good. Sidgwick & Jackson, 1990. See "The Celtic Cross", p. 91-94. The Circles Effect and Its Mysteries. George Terence Meaden. Bradford- on-Avon: Artetech Publishing Company, April 1990 (2nd ed.) 116 pp. UK L11.95. Order from Artetech, 54 Frome Road, Bradford-on-Avon, BA15 1LD; tel. 02216 2482. Proceedings of the First International Conference on the Circles Effect. Edited by George Terence Meaden and Derek Elsom. Copyright TORRO- CERES (Tornado and Storm Research Organization-Circles Effect Research Group). 134pp. Conference held at Oxford Polytechnic on June 23, 1990. Available from Artetech (see previous item) at UK L10. Circles From The Sky. Edited by George Terence Meaden. The expanded, hardcover edition of the Proceedings (see previous item.) 208 pp. UK L14.99 from Souvenir Press, 43 Great Russell Street, London WC1B 3PA. The Crop Circle Enigma. Edited by Ralph Noyes. Bath: Gateway Books, 1990. 192 pp. $29.95 (note price increase.) At least four sources: (1) The Great Tradition, 11270 Clayton Creek Road, P.O. Box 108, Lower Lake, CA 95457, tel. (707) 995-3906. (2) New Leaf Book Distributing Co, 5425 Tulane Drive SW, Atlanta, GA 30336-2323, tel. (404) 691-6996. (3) Inland Book Co, P.O. Box 261, East Haven, CT 06512, tel. (203) 467-4257. (4) Bookpeople, 2929 Fifth Street, Berkeley, CA 94710, tel. (415) 549-3030. Physical Traces Associated With UFO Sightings. Compiled by Ted Phillips, edited by Mimi Hynek. Northfield, Illinois: Center for UFO Studies, 1975. The Natural History of Stafford-shire. Robert Plott (spelled "Plot" on title page.) Oxford, 1686. (Pages 7-21 describe what may be 17th-century fairy rings or crop circles.) Passport to Magonia. Jacques Vallee. Chicago: Henry Regnery Co, 1969. (See "Rings In The Moonlight", pp. 31-39, on "UFO nests.") Periodicals Circles Phenomenon Research (CPR) Newsletter. Editor: Pat Delgado. 1- year subscription (4 issues) $24.00 (but price may be reduced; write for current information.) CPR Satellite Office, 117 Ashland Lane, Aurora, OH 44202. Make checks payable to D.S. Rulison. (Sympathetic to theories of non-human intelligence.) UFO Newsclipping Service. Editor: Lucius Farish. 1-year subscription (12 issues) $55. Route 1, Box 220, Plumerville, Arkansas 72127. (Excellent source for newspaper reports of crop circles worldwide.) The Crop Watcher. Editor: Paul Fuller. 1-year subscription (6 issues) UK L13.00 (overseas airmail price.) 3 Selborne Court, Tavistock Close, Romsey, Hampshire SO51 7TY, England. (Sympathetic to the meteorological theory.) The Circular. Editor: Bob Kingsley. 1-year subscription (4 issues) in- cluded with membership in CCCS (Centre for Crop Circle Studies.) Over- seas membership UK L15, US $33. Payable Visa/Access/Mastercard/Euro- card. Write to Specialist Knowledge Services, St. Aldhelm, 20 Paul Street, Frome, Somerset BA 11 1DX, U.K., or call (0373) 51777. Journal of Meteorology. Editor: George Terence Meaden. 1-year overseas subscription (10 issues) UK L55 surface, L65 airmail. 54 Frome Road, Bradford-on-Avon, Wiltshire, BA15 1LD, England. (The bastion of the meteorological theory.) The Cerealogist. Editor: John Michell. 1-year subscription (3 issues) L7.50, US $18.00. Payable Visa/Access/Mastercard/Eurocard. Write to Specialist Knowledge Services, St. Aldhelm, 20 Paul Street, Frome, Somerset BA 11 1DX, U.K., or call (0373) 51777. (Closely associated with the CCCS. Eclectic approach.) The Swamp Gas Journal. Editor: Chris Rutkowski. For subscription information, write to the editor at Box 1918, Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada R3C 3R2. (Loosely associated with NAICCR--see "Studies"; runs stories on Canadian crop circles.) Mufon UFO Journal. Editor: Dennis Stacy. 1-year subscription (12 issues) $25. 103 Oldtowne Road, Seguin, Texas 78155-4099. (Frequently runs articles on crop circles, particularly North American ones.) Articles "Midwest Crop Circles." Erich A. Aggen, Jr. Mufon UFO Journal, no. 272 (December 1990), pp. 15-16. (Irregular crop circles near Odessa, Missouri.) "Circular Evidence." Colin Andrews. Mufon UFO Journal, no. 243 (July 1988), pp. 11-13. (Discussion of several 1987 formations.) "Major Increase in Mystery Circles." Colin Andrews. Kindred Spirit (UK) vol 1 no. 5 (Winter 1988-89) pp. 27-28. "Crop Circles Appear in the U.S.S.R." Walt Andrus. Mufon UFO Journal, no. 270 (October 1990), p. 13. (Oval, 35 by 45 meters; Krasnodar region.) "The Thumb Prints of the Gods?" Anonymous. U.S. News & World Report, Sept. 11, 1989. (Short item.) "Prepare to Meet Thy Drought." Anonymous. Today, July 20, 1990. (Suggests the multiple pictograms resemble the Sumerian language or weather-map symbols.) "Mystery Circles in Fukuoka." Anonymous. Asahi Evening News (Tokyo), Sept. 28, 1990. (Two circles 12 km. E of Fukuoka City, Japan, found Sept. 17, 1990.) "More Circular Evidence." Richard Beaumont. Kindred Spirit, vol. 1, no. 8, pp. 25-28. (Interview with Colin Andrews. Discusses electrical, psy- chic, and historical events associated with the circles.) "Crop Circles: The Mystery Deepens." Richard Beaumont. Kindred Spirit, vol. 1, no. 12, pp. 32-37. (Summary of the key developments of the Summer 1990 season, with aerial photos.) "The English 'Circles' Mystery." Jon Erik Beckjord. UFO vol. 5, no. 6 (probably late 1990), pp. 9-13, 39. (Discusses personal visit to several formations.) "Possible Physical Mechanism for Producing Crop Circles." John Branden- burg. Mufon UFO Journal, no. 276 (April 1991), pp. 10-11. (Suggests microwave beams are responsible for flattening plants.) "UFO Report to Farmers." George Brandsberg. Farm Profit, July-August 1975. (Discusses scorched patches and long swathes of sliced-off corn.) "The Summer 1990 Crop Circles." Michael Chorost and Colin Andrews. Mufon UFO Journal, no. 272 (December 1990), pp. 3-14. (Layering of crops, EM effects, possibility of language. 10 photos, 3 diagrams.) "Circles of Note: A Continuing Bibliography." Michael Chorost. Mufon UFO Journal, no. 276 (April 1991), pp. 14-17. (This bibliography, as of April 1991.) "Theses for a Pre-Paradigm Science: Cereology." Michael Chorost. To be published in Mufon conference proceedings, July 1991. (Current state of cereology; further theorizing on language hypothesis.) "Erasmus Darwin on Cropfield Circles in 1789?: The Fairy-Ring Connection." Mark Chorvinsky. Strange Magazine no. 6 (date unknown; probably late 1990), p. 32. (Reprints Darwin's discussion of odd fairy- rings; it is quite similar to Plott's account--see "Books.") "UFO Mania Hits Odessa: Circles In Field Create Media Interest." Carol Conrow. The Odessan (Odessa, Missouri), September 20, 1990, pp. 2-3. (Discussion of Odessa crop circle in a field of sorghum.) "Circles in Lowe Fields Stir Interest Across Nation." Carol Conrow. The Odessan (Odessa, Missouri), September 27, 1990. "The Whippingham Ground Effects." Leonard G. Cramp. Flying Saucer Review, vol. 14, no. 3 (May/June 1968). (Extensive documentation of straight and circular plant flattenings correlated with a reported UFO sighting on July 10, 1967, near Newport, Isle of Wight.) "The Circles: England's Greatest Unsolved Mystery." Sean Devney. UFO Universe, July 1990, pp. 30-59. (Discussion of possible relationship to Stonehenge.) "Around and Around in Circles." Sally B. Donnelly. Time Magazine. Sept. 18, 1989, p.50. Letters of response in Oct. 9th issue, p. 14. (Overview of the phenomenon; three color pictures.) "Ever-Increasing Circles." Elisabeth Dunn. Telegraph Weekend Magazine (UK), July 8, 1989, pp. 24-28. (Basic overview; good photographs.) "Magical Mystery Tour." John Eccles. Sussex Express (UK), August 3, 1990. (Formation on Milton Street Farm, near Wilmington Priory.) "Logic Flattens 'Corn Circle' Theories." James Erlichmann. Guardian (UK), July 6, 1990, p. 24. (Reports Robert Cory's theory: "The phenomenon is caused by the old-fashioned circular irrigation machine.") "El Enigma Que Cayo Del Cielo." Hilary Evans. Ano Cero no. 2 (September 1990), pp. 50-55. "Mysterious Circles in British Fields Spook the Populace." Craig Forman. Wall Street Journal, Aug 28, 1989, p. A1. (Basic overview.) "Squaring The Circles of Alien Visitors." Nigel Fountain. Guardian (UK), August 1, 1990, p. 36. (Humor: "Stuff fluid dynamics, I want some aliens.") "Mystery Circles: Myth in the Making." Paul Fuller. International UFO Reporter, May/June 1988, p. 4-8. (Supports meteorological theory; presents two eyewitness cases of whirlwinds.) "Weird Circles Puzzle Britons." Jacqui Goddard. The High Plains Journal (Dodge City, Kansas), September 11, 1989, p. B1. (Basic overview.) "Circles Run Rings Around Experts." Timothy Good. Hampshire Chronicle (UK), Aug. 4, 1989. (Basic overview.) "Circles in the fields inspire talk of UFO's." Maria Goodavage. USA Today, November 15, 1990, p. 6A. (Short discussion of double-dumbbells.) "Daylight Close Encounter." Stan Gordon. MUFON UFO Journal, July 1989, pp. 18-21. (Discusses Pennsylvania UFO sighting and related circular landing trace.) "Retrospective Investigation of a Possible Trace at Mt. Garnet". Holly Goriss and Russell Boundy. UFO Research Australia Newsletter, March- April 1981 (Vol 2. No. 2) pp. 4-6. (Investigates a 1977 ground marking which looks like a crude quintuplet.) "Farmer's Amazing Find in Cornfield." Richard Green. Chase Post (Lich- field, UK), Aug. 9, 1990. (Chorley, Lichfield "cross" formation.) "Crop Circles Create Rounds of Confusion." Wendy Grossman. Skeptical Inquirer, vol. 14 no. 2 (Winter 1990), pp. 117-118. ("A genuine modern mystery.") "The Year of the Vajra." John Haddington. Link Up, Sept-Nov. 1990, p. 4-13. (Suggests dumbbells are Buddhist symbols; discussion of camera failures.) "If It Can't Be Explained, Women Ready To Listen." Bill Harlan. Rapid City Journal (South Dakota), March 10, 1991. (Report circles in area to Davina Ryszka of Custer, S.D., (605) 673-2818.) "Round and Round They Go: New Crop of Oddities Has British Going in Circles." Timothy Harper. The Detroit News, Oct. 2, 1989, p. 3A. (Basic overview.) "Going Round in Circles." Andrew Hewitt. Huddersfield Examiner (UK), August 7, 1990. (Supports vortex theory, dismisses hoax theory.) "Taking A Turn Around The Circles." George Hill. The Times (UK), July 27, 1990, p. 16. (Attack on uncritical media approaches to phenomenon.) "Beware of the Supernatural." Juliet Hughes. Wiltshire Gazette (UK), August 9, 1990. ("If the crop circles prove to be meteorological phenome- na, then all the more glory to God.") "England's Puzzling Crop Circles: The Shape of a Mystery." J. Antonio Huneeus. New York City Tribune, 2 parts: May 3 and 10, 1990 ("Science" section.) (Discusses history, and hoax and meteorological theories.) "A Sighting in Saskatchewan." J. Allen Hynek and Jacques Vallee, in The Edge of Reality (Appendix A). The Henry Regnery Co., 1975. (Discusses Canadian UFO sighting and related circular flattened areas.) "Experts Can't Square Explanations of Circles." Gregory Jensen. Wash- ington Times, July 27, 1990. Page A1. (Reports the Blackbird hoax inci- dent. Photo of one of the pictograms.) "Round and Round in Circles." Dianne Kenny. Global Link Up, December 1988/Feb. 1989, pp. 4-7. (Overview, theories.) "Corn Circles and an Artful Explanation." Miles Kington. The Independ- ent (UK), Sept. 5, 1990, p. 20. (Humor: "I would surmise that Wiltshire is a very out-of-town gallery for some galaxy.") "A Rare Circle for Skeptics." Marek Kohn. Weekend Guardian (UK), Aug. 18, 1990, p. 17. (Skeptical discussion of the phenomenon.) "The Corn Circles Riddle." Idina Le Geyt. Share International vol 9, no. 3 (April 1990), pp. 17-19. (Focuses on paranormal events associated with the circles.) "Spherical Sounds? Zounds!" Eugenia Macer-Story. Mufon UFO Journal, April 1991, pp. 12-13. "Strange Sighting at Silbury Hill." Richard Martin. Kindred Spirit (UK), vol 1 no. 5 (Winter 1988-89), pp. 26-27. (Glowing lights associated with circles.) "Mysterious Ring in Field Gets Plenty of Attention." Tom McCoag. Chronicle Herald (Halifax, Canada), April 22, 1991, p. A1. (Early 1991 formation in Amherst, Nova Scotia; 30-foot dia. ring, 12 inches wide.) "More Puzzling Circles Found in Fields." Donna McGuire and Eric Adler. Kansas City Star, September 21, 1990, p A1. (Map locates seven circles in Kansas City region; discusses microburst theory.) "Circles in the corn." Terence Meaden. New Scientist, June 23, 1990, 47- 9. (Argues for the plasma vortex theory.) "The Beckhampton 'Scroll-Type' Circles, The Beckhampton 'Triangle', and Strange Attractors." G. Terence Meaden, Journal of Meteorology (Trow- bridge, U.K.), October 1990, pp. 317-320. ("The triangle is nothing other than an imperfect circle." Useful for discussion of luminous tubes and diagram of a scroll.) "Crop Circles Explained???" Ernest P. Moyer. Insight, Sept. 24, 1990; reprinted in Focus, December 31, 1990, p. 16. (Translates one double- dumbbell to mean "Khawah", or "Eve, the life-giver.") "And Now...Cornfield Circles in Australia!" Paul Norman. Flying Saucer Review, vol. 35, no. 1 (March Quarter, 1990), pp. 7-8. (Briefly discusses nine 1980's crop circles in Beulah, Victoria, between 3 and 16 feet in diameter.) "And More Cornfield Circles in Canada." Paul Norman. Flying Saucer Review, vol. 35, no. 1 (March Quarter, 1990), pp. 8-9. (Briefly discusses 1989 circles between 6 and 24 meters in diameter in Manitoba; 2 photos.) "Crop Revolution 10 Years On." Ralph Noyes. Country Life, July 6, 1989, pp. 102-103. (Discusses White Crow, 1989's surveillance experiment.) "Circular Arguments." Ralph Noyes. Mufon UFO Journal no. 258 (October 1989), pp. 16-18. (Discusses books, meteorological theory.) "Farmers Fear Mysterious Vicious Circle." Nick Nuttall. The London Times, June 23, 1990, p. 4. (Oxford Polytechnic conference.) "L10,000 Reward." Terry O'Hanlon. Sunday Mirror (UK), July 22, 1990. (Mirror offers reward for solution of mystery.) "Mysterious Circles." Andrew Phillips. Macleans, Aug. 13, 1990, pp. 46-47. (Short overview.) "The Hertfordshire 'Mowing Devil' Woodcut: A 17th Century Circle Report?" Jenny Randles. UFO Times, no. 5 (January 1990), pp. 30-32. (Presents a 1678 woodcut showing a devil "mowing" a pattern which Randles suggests may be a crop circle.) "Shedding New Light on Mystery Crop Circles." Ross Reyburn. Birming- ham Post (UK), August 16, 1990. (Interview with Jenny Randles.) "Scientist Tells How He Squared A Corn Circle." Amit Roy. The Sunday Times (UK), July 1, 1990, p. 4. (Discussion of meteorological theory.) "Swirled Landing Trace?" Carol and Rex Salisberry. MUFON UFO Journal, no. 264 (April 1990), pp. 3-7. (A Gulf Breeze crop circle.) "Measuring the Circles." Michael T. Shoemaker. Strange Magazine no. 6 (date unknown; probably late 1990), pp. 34-35, 56-57. (Critical review of current theories.) "Did They Have Visitors?" Richard Simon. Fate, vol. 44, no. 2 (February 1991), pp. 66-69. (46-foot circle in shallow grass, Millersburg, Ohio.) "The Crop Circle Mystery." A. Robert Smith. Venture Inward, Jan/Feb 1991, pp. 12-16. "Unidentified Farm Object Shakes State." Wes Smith. Chicago Tribune, October 28, 1990, p.1. Reprinted as "Illinois Aflutter Over Unidentified Farm Object" in Austin American-Statesman (Austin, Texas), November 14, 1990, p. D10. (Discusses 1990 crop circle in Milan, Illinois.) "Field Of Dreams?" Dava Sobel. Omni, December 1990, pp. 59-67,121-128. (Extended overview, slanted toward meteorological theory; many photo- graphs.) "Graffiti of the Gods?" Dennis Stacy. New Age Journal, Jan/Feb. 1991, pp. 38-44, 103. (Extended overview, more balanced than Omni article; many photographs.) "River, Lake, and Creek." Michael Strainic. Mufon UFO Journal, March 1990, pp. 10-14. (Circles and UFO reports in British Columbia.) "Corn Circle Experts in Plea for Action." Chris Tate. Salisbury Journal (UK), July 27, 1989, p. 4. (British government not discussing the phe- nomenon.) "Hoping Some Furry Little Creatures Crop Up." Calvin Trillin. Syndicat- ed newspaper column, August 13, 1990. (A humorous look at the circles.) "Did a UFO Visit This Farm?" Lon Tonneson. Dakota Farmer, October 1990, p. 9. (Early Aug. 1990 "reversed question mark" in Leola, S.D.) "Anatomy of a Corny Hoax." Simon Trump and Bill Mouland. Today (UK), July 26, 1990, pp. 24-25. (Chronology of the Blackbird hoax.) "Proposed Physical Measurements of Crop Circles." Michael Wales. Mufon UFO Journal, March 1991, pp. 15, 23. (Suggestions for instrumented re- search.) Multiple stories, multiple authors, Fortean Times, issues 53 (Winter 1989/90) and 55 (sorry, date not known.) Issue 53 is entirely devoted to the phenomenon, with articles by Bob Skinner, John Michell, Ralph Noyes, G. Terence Meaden, Hilary Evans, and Bob Rickard. Issue 55 contains an update, pp. 7-13, on 1989-1990 formations outside of Wiltshire. "Das Ratsel im Roggen." Stern, #38 (Sept/Oct 1989), p. 250-1. "Ein Phanomen Zieht Kreise." Esotera, December 12, 1989, p. 52-57. "Los misteriosos y polemicos circulos aparecidos en los campos del Sur de Inglaterra." !Hola!, date ?, p. 134-140. Reviews "Crop Circles in North America: The NAICCR Report." Michael Chorost. Mufon UFO Journal, June 1991. "A Crop of Circles." Circular Evidence and The Circles Effect and its Mysteries. Derek Elsom. New Scientist, July 29, 1989, p. 58. "They Never Yet Could Find My Measure." The Crop Circle Enigma. Wendy Grossman. New Scientist, December 1, 1990, pp. 61-2. Crop Circles: The Latest Evidence. Jerrold R. Johnson. Mufon UFO Journal, March 1991, pp. 17-18, 23. The Circles Effect and Its Mysteries, Circular Evidence, and Controversy of the Circles. Ralph Noyes. Journal of the Society for Psychical Re- search, vol. 56, no. 820 (July 1990), pp. 235-237. The Crop Circle Enigma. Dennis Stacy. Mufon UFO Journal, March 1991, pp. 16-17. "Field Events." Circular Evidence. Alexander Urquhart. Times Literary Supplement, August 4, 1989, p. 845. Studies "Circles Investigation." Colin Andrews. Released 1986. 19 pp. Presents some data for the years 1975-1986, primarily dates and approximate loca- tions. Discusses hoax theory and circles' relationship to tramlines. Cir- cles Phenomenon Research, 57 Salisbury Road, Andover, Hampshire SP10 2LL, UK. "A Sample Survey of the Incidence of Geometrically-Shaped Crop Damage." Paul Fuller. Copyright 1988. 41 pp. Commissioned by BUFORA and TORRO. "North American Crop Circles and Related Physical Traces in 1990." Re- leased February 1991. 18pp. Conducted by NAICCR (North American Insti- tute for Crop Circle Research.) Presents data for 45 North American cases in 1990, about 30 of which appear to be English-style crop circles. NAICCR, 649 Silverstone Avenue, Winnipeg, Manitoba R3T 2V8, Canada. Television (My thanks to Richard Benham and Paul Hicks for this information.) Good Morning America--May 9, July 24, July 25, July 26 (all 1990). Cover- age of the Blackbird surveillance operation and the hoax of July 24, 1990. ABC Evening News--July 19, 1990. Coverage of double-dumbbells. CBS Evening News--July 25, 1990. Coverage of Blackbird hoax. Unsolved Mysteries--January 31, 1990. Overview of phenomenon and 1989 events. Reshown with update on September 12, 1990. A Current Affair--August 27 and September 14, 1990. Latter show dis- cusses Canadian crop circles and interviews Whitley Streiber about them. Inside Edition--March 5, 1990. 20/20--September 21, 1990; 10-minute segment. Miscellaneous The Skyland bulletin board (Asheville, N.C.) has inaugurated an NACIRCLE conference (#14.) Contains an online version of Mufon's December 1990 article by Chorost and Andrews, and a copy of this bibliography (which will be updated regularly.) Sysop: Michael Havelin. Telephone (704) 254- 7800. 2400 baud, N-8-1. No charge. "Out of the Prairie Comes Proof that a Higher Level of Communication Has Arrived." Advertisement for Procomm Plus 2.0 (Datastorm Technologies Inc.) Clever depiction of a crop circle shaped like a computer diskette. Designer: Stephen Monaco. Ran in computer magazines starting Feb-Mar. 1991. A recent Led Zeppelin album cover contains a photograph of the first Alton Barnes double-dumbbell with a zeppelin's shadow over it. The Koestler Foundation is offering a reward of L5000 for a documented explanation of the crop circles. For information, write to The Koestler Foundation, 484 King's Road, London SW10 OLF. Include a stamped ad- dressed envelope. CD-ROM bibliographic sources are beginning to index articles under "crop circles. EOF ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: FILE: A Thesis on the Crop Circles - Michael Chorost - MUFON Message-ID: <1991Sep18.032531.24946@bilver.uucp> Date: 18 Sep 91 03:25:31 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 784 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2059 alt.conspiracy:7179 sci.skeptic:15180 I had posted this a few months back. In light of the recent developments and discussions on various newsgroups on the crop circles and hoax explanations, media hype and general queries on the subject, I'm re-posting it again. -----begin included text -------------------------------------------- Thesis for a Pre-Paradigm Science: Cereology Michael Chorost Written March 1991; published July 1991 1. Cereology as a Pre-Paradigm Science 2. Non-Human Intelligence? 3. The Problem with "Intelligence" 4. A Guess: Are the Crop Circles A Symbol System? 5. About Unconvincing Guesses 6. The Future Looks Back on the Present: A Hopeful Guess Appendix: Colin Andrews' Catalog of Formations, with Annotations by Michael Chorost (not included in electronic version) I'm writing this paper in March 1991, well before the start of the next crop circles season. I anticipate that by July, there will be new developments I will want to talk about, instead of reading a paper written months before. Thus I have not designed this paper to be read aloud. However, since it is oriented toward grounding cereology as a theoretical discipline, I am likely to presume many of its points in my talk. I will be happy to entertain questions about it in Chicago. 1. Cereology as a Pre-Paradigm Science In this first of six sections, I want to talk about cereology as a discipline, and acquaint readers with some of its complexities and prob- lems. In the remaining sections, I will explore one particular problem in detail: are the circles a language? And if so, how might we figure it out? The crop circles phenomenon is much more complex than it appears at first glance, so it follows that cereology, the study of the phenomenon, needs to think ways which will encompass that complexity. So it is impor- tant to establish right off that the phenomenon has aspects which make naive "the aliens have started talking to us" theories difficult to uphold. The evidence leads in contradictory directions. For example, researchers (primarily meteorologists) have gathered eyewitness reports of circles from as far back as 1918, and have found written texts describing what may be crop circles from as far back as 1590. One 17th-century text describes an event in 1633, where a school curate saw, while walking at night in a Wiltshire field, "innumerable quantitie of pigmies or very small people dancing rounde and rounde, and singing and making all manner of small odd noyses." He heard "a sorte of quick humming noyse all the time" and "when the sun rose he found himself exactly in the midst of one of these faery dances."1 Such "quick humming noyses" have been heard in present-day crop circles,2 and have been captured on tape by the BBC and other observers. The curate's story seems to fit, because modern crop circles are believed to form very rapidly, as this one apparently did, and the "pigmies...dancing rounde" could have been a 17th-century observer's way of interpreting a spinning, possibly glowing force field. Another text, authored by Robert Plott in 1686, discusses an appar- ently similar event in 1590 and theorizes that such artifacts are made by lightning. An illustration theorizes that cone-shaped "lightning strikes" are responsible for the rings and, astonishingly, rings containing squares. David J. Reynolds notes that Plott describes "'imperfect segments', rings within rings, squares (?!), 'Semicircles, Quadrants and Sextants' being formed by combinations of multiple strokes, differing angles of descent and variations in lightning strength across a stroke" (p. 348, italics in originals.)3 Unfortunately, Plott does not give enough information to make it clear whether he is observing "fairy rings", which are fungal infections in the soil which blight plants in slowly spreading circular areas, or crop circles. In fact, much of his discussion points away from crop circles. Not once does he mention that the plants are flattened in spiral patterns, nor does he talk about the intricate braiding often seen in crop circles. And when he digs under one formation, he discovers that the soil "was much looser and dryer than ordinary, and the parts interspersed with a white hoar or vinew much like that in mouldy bread, of a musty rancid smell."4 This is a finding entirely consistent with fairy rings. And yet, as Reynolds notes, Plott is quite explicit about the existence of non-circu- lar formations like quadrants and hollow squares, going so far as to provide diagrams of them. To my knowledge, there is no such thing as a fairy square. Thus we cannot eliminate the possibility that Plott saw what we think of as crop circles. Of course, it's also possible that he saw something which was neither fairy rings nor crop circles, but something else altogether. Plott's discussion anticipates parts of the modern debate with remarkable fidelity. He devotes considerable attention to rumors of pos- sessed satanic dancers, but ultimately concludes that such "hoaxes" could only account for a particular subset of the phenomenon: "If I must needs allow [dancers] to cause some few of these Rings, I must also restrain them to those of the first kind, that are bare at many places like a path- way; for to both the others more natural causes may be probably as- signed" (14.) It appears that Plott anticipated the meteorological theory by roughly 300 years. These observations have to make any alien-intelligence theorist stop and think. Plott talks about events which happened in 1590. The curate's anomalous sighting happened a decade after the publication of Shakespeare's First Folio. If they are true crop circles, and if they're by aliens who have been trying to get our attention for four centuries, there is at least one species in the galaxy which is remarkably dumb (and it's not necessarily us.) The finders of these texts subscribe to the meteoro- logical theory, so they interpret the reports as evidence of a naturally occurring plasma-vortex phenomenon. The reader may not accept that theory, but whatever he or she does accept has to take these astonishing writings into account. The 17th-century texts are not the only example of fractious data. For every eyewitness report of a glowing object or alien spacecraft making a crop circle at night, there is another eyewitness report of a violent wind which flattens out a circle in broad daylight.5 And there are now numerous articles claiming that the phenomenon is generated by "earth energies" which determine the location and shape of each crop circle. The theory relies on dowsing results. Nonsense? Possibly; but Terence Meaden, the arch-enemy of intelligence-oriented theories, has begun using dowsing himself, theorizing that "the metal-rod movement of the dowser may be related to a reaction to the minor changes in the local magnetic field of the soil induced by the plasma vortices and their fast- spinning fields."6 Whatever the validity of such claims (and they need to be tested!), they add further complications to cereology. I hope these examples have served to shred the belief that all the evidence points in one direction. Hoax theorists point to the Bratton hoax, an embarrassing but quickly detected hoax perpetuated on one of 1990's surveillance groups; alien-intelligence theorists point to eyewitness reports and the humming noises; vortex theorists point to other eyewit- ness reports, and the humming noises; earth-energy theorists point to dowsing results, and the humming noises; and everyone points to every- one else as terrible examples of interpretation of data. So we have a complex situation. That's nothing new; it's life. But there is an illuminating way to describe the kind of complexity that reigns now. I borrow from Thomas Kuhn's well-known work The Structure of Scientific Revolutions7 in suggesting that cereology is a pre-paradigm science. Kuhn defines a "paradigm" as an "implicit body of intertwined theoretical and methodological belief that permits selection, evaluation, and criticism" (17). More briefly, a paradigm is a way of thinking which unifies a scientific discipline. So far, that's exactly what cereology lacks. It consists of a mass of disparate observations and a few theories, none of which explain very much. The absence of a paradigm is beautifully illustrated by two very different interpretations of what may be an eye- witness report of a quintuplet formation being made. On July 13, 1988, according to Circular Evidence, a woman saw "a large, golden, disc-shaped object within [a] cloud" which emitted "a bright white parallel beam...from the bottom of the disc at an angle of roughly 65o [which] shone across the sky towards Silbury Hill" (p. 115.) Delgado and Andrews imply that an alien spacecraft used an energy beam to inscribe the formation. Terence Meaden, on the other hand, writes, "On 13th July 1988, a lady was eyewitness to a hollow pencil-shaped tube (not a beam) of light which reached from cloud to ground for an observed period of a couple of minutes. A huge volume of the cloud, which was at 4000 feet, appeared electrified."8 One event, one witness; two interpreters, two "facts"; no paradigm. So how are cereologists to conduct pre-paradigm science? Kuhn writes, "In the absences of a paradigm or some candidate for a paradigm, all of the facts that could possibly pertain...are likely to seem equally relevant. As a result, fact-gathering is a far more nearly random activity than the one that subsequent scientific development makes familiar." (15) This accurately describes how matters stand as of this writing. The sensible thing to do is to repeat history, i.e. gather as many observations as possible, omnivorously, excluding nothing. There should be routine data collection with IR cameras, geiger counters, magnetometers, plant DNA assays, weather stations, and so on. Good photos and accurate measure- ments need to be taken; even dowsing results and unusual physical sensa- tions should be assiduously recorded. And everything should be pub- lished. Some sets of observations may not be deemed relevant in the future--that is the risk of pre-paradigm science--but we owe it to future researchers and historians to bequeath them as rich a storehouse of data as we can. We could be doing better on this score. As of this writing, meas- urements and positional data of both English and North American forma- tions are both scarce and of uneven quality. Instrumental experiments are rarely performed. In addition, poor organization and political battles impede the release of what data does exist. Michael Green is sadly right when he notes that "inordinate professional jealousy and commercial rival- ry...has unfortunately marked the study of the subject to date, and has led to a hoarding of essential information."9 For example, the meteorolo- gists are sitting on their data, partly because they're unwilling to let their opponents have it. The alien-intelligence theorists are also sitting on their data, partly because they feel reluctant to give away the product of many hours of hard work. Neither concern is justified. Researchers are responsible only for the quality of their data, not for what others do with it. It seems to me that anybody who thinks his data will help his opponents more than it will help him is in an unenviable position, as far as his theory is concerned. And to sit on data is effectively to waste the work that went into its collection. The CCCS (Centre for Crop Circle Studies) is trying to overcome these problems, and we should wish them the best of luck. Steady but polite pressure from Americans may help, too. Two things are necessary, over and above performing the research: a smoothly functioning network funneling data toward publication, and the attitude that information should be shared with the community to promote further research. Secrecy and mercantile considerations serve only to gum up the works, especially at this fragile stage. It would be best if history could record that information was freely and generously shared in these difficult early days. A 1991 report by Chris Rutkowski and other members of the NAICCR (North American Institute for Crop Circles Re- search) beautifully exemplifies this attitude. It lists 46 cases of ground markings in 1990, about thirty of which appear to be English-style crop circles. It provides formation types, lay rotations, dates, sizes, and approximate locations. (I am now writing a review of it, which I anticipate will appear in the May 1991 issue of the Mufon UFO Journal.) I hope other cereologists will consider its example well. After obtaining data, cereologists will just have to theorize as carefully and responsibly as they can, and dare to be wrong. Francis Bacon writes, "Truth emerges more readily from error than from confu- sion."10 This maxim strikes me with particular force when I contemplate the meteorologists' corpus of research. I think its basic thesis is in error, yet even the few the scraps of data the meteorologists publish are more useful than the typically haphazard observations offered by people whom I think are closer to the mark. Organized error can be re-organ- ized into truth. 2. Non-Human Intelligence? 2001: A Space Odyssey seems less science-fictional than it did in 1968, now that artificial constructions of an anomalous nature are appear- ing repeatedly around the world. Most of the major researchers in cere- ology are convinced that human beings are not making them, because they cannot figure out what human device, however sophisticated, could pro- duce all of the observed effects and remain undetected for so long. I am inclined to agree with them, though I would add that it is always risky to underestimate the ingenuity of our own species. I suspect that the possibility of a fabulously intricate hoax, however slight, keeps a lot of cereologists awake at nights. Perhaps worrying about the hoax theory is one way of worrying about the implications of the circles not being hoax- es. Some researchers, primarily the meteorologists, believe that the circles are produced by a natural phenomenon that we have only now begun to notice. Many people find this unconvincing. Nature can indeed produce fabulously intricate structures, like us, but I have never seen it do so both overnight and on such a vast scale. And I find it difficult to ascribe the rapidly increasing complexity of the shapes to natural forces, which typically change slowly when they change at all. By elimination, I have become sympathetic to non-human intelligence theories--as I suspect many of my readers will be also. There is some slight anecdotal evidence for such theories; NAICCR's report on ground markings notes, for instance, that 4 of its 46 listed cases have UFO sight- ings associated with them. Anecdotal evidence is notoriously difficult to use, however, so I will not appeal to it in my analysis. Let us suppose--it is still more or less an outright guess--that the crop circles are the products of a non-human intelligence, and explore the implications of that thesis. It will be fun to do so, if nothing else. The rest of this essay will be devoted to that undertaking. It is possible, as I have remarked elsewhere,11 that the formations are the visible side-effect of some deliberately directed physical process, the way tire tracks and footprints are. At present, there is virtually nothing that can be said about this important theory. Discussion only becomes possible when one hypothesizes that the formations are supposed to mean something, either to their creators or to ourselves. And it is to this possibility that I will devote most of my attention. If we want to try to decode the circles, we are faced with gigantic problems at the very outset. Typically, when we receive messages from human intelligences, we have some amount of shared background to draw upon in decoding them. Shared language is obviously the most useful background; but if that is absent, there are usually others, such as shared physical environment, shared needs, shared knowledge of history, shared interests, shared physiologies. Not knowing Arabic, I can still guess that an Arab with me in a souk is hungry if he looks at me and mimics the act of eating. But we may share nothing with an alien intelligence. At any rate, we can presume nothing.12 We cannot presume similar sensory equipment or physical needs; we cannot presume similar evolutionary conditions; we cannot even presume corporeal bodies or a sense of self. I could go on and on about the radical uncertainty involved. To cut a long discussion short, it comes down to this: we must guess, just plain guess, that they are like us in some ways, and proceed accordingly. In writing about decoding a hypothetical alien message, Lewis White Beck argues that "we must guess that it is a message, guess what it says, and then try to see if the signal can convey that message."13 For example, we could guess that the dimensions of the circles encode mathematical relationships such as pi and e, and search to see if such numbers can be found in a sys- tematic way. Or we could guess that certain logical relationships are being implied, and search for the most basic ones, such as transitivity and hierarchy. Or it could be posited that the spatial locations of the circles relative to each other are related to spatial distances elsewhere, such as between stars. The chances of picking the wrong message are high, but Bacon's dictum about truth still applies. 3. The Problem with "Intelligence" I will dare to be wrong later in this essay, but I want to make a remark about "intelligence" first. The debate over the crop circles can all too easily polarize into two camps, intelligent versus non-intelligent causation. But the entire debate could be off the mark. The phenomenon's cause may not be "blind nature", but it may not be intelli- gence the way we know it, either. If it's aliens, they might be far smart- er than us in some ways, but dumb as bricks in others. Or suppose the circlemaker is Gaia--an intelligence resulting from complex interactions in the biosphere of the planet? Or, the combined psychic interactions of the human race? Or a natural phenomenon which is being manipulated by such psychic interactions? Farfetched ideas, to be sure, but so is the phenomenon. As my colleague Dennis Stacy has repeatedly warned me in correspondence, thinking along rigid "p or not-p" lines can overlook fruitful areas of inquiry. An arrow flying in a straight line can still miss the target. Also, it is well to remember that all of the words denoting "intelli- gent beings" in English were designed to refer to exactly one species: Homo sapiens of Earth. All English words denoting "intelligent non-human beings" are negatives: "alien" is rooted in the Sanskrit antara, which means merely "other", and "extra-terrestrial" means "not from Earth." In terms of thinking about alien intelligence, our language is as limited as the counting system which calls all quantities above five "many." However, I will guess an intelligence not altogether different from ours, simply because it is the easiest for us to think about. It is as reasonable a place to start as any. Of course, the problem of decoding would still be daunting. To manage it, we can make more guesses: perhaps the circlemakers have already observed us and know something about us. They may have guessed that our minds will leap to certain guesses, and attempted to play to our predilections. (Such double-guessing could someday tell us quite a bit about them.) As Cipher A. Deavours points out, aliens ought to have some interest in developing codes designed to reveal rather than conceal information.14 Decoding could be orders of magnitude easier if the cir- clemakers have taken our ways of decoding into account. We may be seeing our humanness being filtered through alien consciousness and played back at us. Of course, the simplest way of communicating with us would have been to use our own symbols, or to use something readily comprehensible to us, like groups of circles corresponding to the prime numbers. The fact that we have not readily understood the circles suggests a number of possibilities: we have not really tried yet; there is no message; there is a message, but one whose content is not directed at us; the entities are so profoundly different from us that they cannot figure out what we would find easily accessible; they have more subtle motives than straightforward communication; they have decided to dispense with easy formalities and want us to think hard, perhaps with the implied lure that the reward will be worth the effort. I find the first the most preferable, since so little has been done by way of attempts at decoding. In any case, it's reason- able to guess that something complex and multileveled is either happening or being communicated. 4. A Guess: Are the Crop Circles A Symbol System? All this said, I will now risk being wrong in a major way. I will argue that we are indeed looking at a symbol system. The shapes seem to have a certain "symbolicity" (see Colin Andrews' catalog, Appendix I.) I don't necessarily mean that they are a phonetic alphabet like English; I mean something more like pictorial codes or schematics. However, I shall have to be rather vague about what I mean by the word "symbol." The most specific definition I can offer is "a mark which means something to a group of people, by convention." For there can be many different kinds of symbols. A symbol can be a mark with exactly one referent; for exam- ple, there is a certain schematic which signifies exactly one kind of tran- sistor. Or it can be a mark amenable to different interpretations, like the color red in the Soviet flag (it means revolutionary political possibilities to some, raw tyranny to others.) Or it can be a mark which functions in a language, meaning little in itself but contributing to a total meaning. For example, the physical mark "key" contributes in a certain way to the sentence "Where are my car keys?" and in a different way to "The key to the treasure is there." It seems to me that the circles could be symbols in any of these ways (and there are many more possible ways.) I tend to gravitate toward the third, language-oriented kind of symbolicity, but I don't wish to exclude the others. My intention is to spark a rich debate by opening up possibilities, not to truncate debate by closing them off. To a lot of people, the formations "feel" like a symbol system. And they do have broad structural elements in common with human symbol systems (which, it must be pointed out, may not be much of a basis for comparison.) Like many human symbol systems, they can be broken down into certain recurring basic shapes--the circle the line, the rectangle, the ring, the curved arc, and so on. These elements are their "strokes." If the formations are complex, they are complex by the accumulation of pre- existing elements, not the creation of new elements (though each summer does bring some new elements.) Like human symbol systems, the crop circles present enough variety to suggest the possibility of reference to a large number of objects or ideas. If we saw only three formations repeated over and over, we would probably be more inclined to think them artistic or cultural icons, or natural artifacts, rather than members of a linguistic or representational system. Like human symbols, their variety remains within limits; of 1990's numerous single and double dumbbells, no two are alike, but all are recognizably part of a class. It's a bit like the way the English letters b,d,p,q,c, and o form a recognizable class. The Egyptian hieroglyph for "bird" would stick out and look very strange in that class, and indeed it would not belong anywhere in the alphabet. As would the letter "b" look very odd, if claimed to be a Chinese ideogram. The "variety within limits" argument is important for another rea- son. The appearance of "scrolls", rectangles, and triangles suggests that there is no physical limitation to the kind of shapes that can be created. If a short rectangle can be made, so can long ones to form lines, and the scrolls suggest that irregular lines can be drawn "freehand", as it were. The fact that the formations seem to vary within boundaries seems to suggest a defined and ordered system. Of course, there are problems with the argument, such as that the formations bear little obvious spatial relationship to each other the way human symbols usually do. One is also hard-pressed to group the weirdly curvy "scroll" formations as belonging to the same system as the highly angular double-dumbbells; perhaps the scrolls really are mistakes or doodles. Or perhaps the only message being conveyed is "Watch this space, and be here next summer." Humorists have also suggested alien art galleries and alien advertising. My guesses may more wrong than I can imagine. But for all that, I think it is not crazy to guess that we are looking at a symbol system, not random squiggles. It just may be possible to start grouping 1990's new formations into classes. Such attempts are highly arbitrary by their nature, conditioned by the viewer's predispositions (as are readings of Rorschach inkblots), but the attempt is worth making. It would be interesting to see what groupings other people make. Colin Andrews' catalog (see Appendix A) lists 65 formation types (one is a known hoax, so I don't count it.) I can derive the following classes from studying Colin's catalogue: (Numbers refer to the formation number in the catalog) Single dumbbells (21, 22, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 33, 36, 55) Double-dumbbells (34, 35, 54) Thetas (40, 41, 49, 50) Plain circles with satellites (3, 5, 6, 17, 43, 52) Ringed circles (10, 19, 20, 23, 24, 25, 38, 64) Saturns (7, 8, 11, 32, 37, 46) Rings (44) Scrolls (45, 48, 65) Triangles (47, 63) Sports (unique formations, i.e. 26, 39, 53, 58, 59, 62) To explain my nomenclature: I call the "thetas" so because their split central circle reminds me of the Greek letter "O" (I imply no actual con- nection to Greek.) The "saturns" remind me of Saturn with its moons (again, no connection to the planet implied, though it's not impossible that there be one.) I take the name "scroll" from The Crop Circle Enigma (which shows pictures of them on p. 156.) I name the "sports" so be- cause a "sport" in biology is a unique object. Interestingly enough, it may be that the formation types are also roughly contiguous in space. The hand-drawn map reproduced in Issue 2 of The Cereologist (p. 3) shows that all three double-dumbbells appeared quite close to each other, in fact within an area five kilometers long and two kilometers wide, just north of Alton Barnes. At least six of the ten single dumbbells appeared in the Longwood Estate area, just southwest of Winchester. The four thetas may fall in a line (it will take much better data to verify this.) Two of the scrolls are quite close to each other, at Beckhampton. The spatial-relationships idea is being pursued vigorously by Harvey Lunenfeld of East Northport, New York. We've been trying to obtain positional data for as many of the formations as possible, in order to create a computerized database. Harvey and his son Randy are now configuring sophisticated mapping software which will facilitate the search for spatial relationships, and also for correlations with other types of data. So far we've been obtaining our positional data from thumbnail deduction from photographs and other available evidence. The job will become much easier once we gain access to satellite imagery good enough to show exactly where the formations are. Access to some of the English databases would also help greatly, of course. Allow me to call attention to the fact that certain elements recur in different contexts. The triangle's "F" is much like the shapes jutting out from all three double dumbbells. (Could it be significant that none of the single dumbbells have such shapes?) The other triangle's flanking shapes are very much like the double rectangles on many of the single dumbbells (and, note, none of the double dumbbells.) One simple circle has a three- fingered shape jutting out of it which looks almost exactly like the one attached to the Allington Down (more precisely, East Kennett) double dumbbell. Some of the single dumbbells and the theta formations have partial arcs as components. The saturns are a combination of plain circles with satellites and ringed circles. This evident combination and recombi- nation of elements makes it plausible to suppose that there is some form of "grammar" ruling their placement. It may be possible to work out the properties of the grammar without understanding the meaning of the symbols. One way to do this is to compare groups of symbols to each other, isolating consistent statistical similarities and differences. For example, if the ratios of the areas of the two circles in single dumbells compares in some consistent way to the ratios of the lengths of the forks to their circles, that might indicate a meaningful element of language. This particular example is mathematically oriented, but other strategies are feasible, too: one could compare the spatial orientation of the thetas to that of all of the other groups, or compare the length of formations to their compass orientations. It is an encouraging fact that cryptographers are frequently able to decode messages whose plaintext is written in a language they do not know very well. Deavours writes, It is of interest that codes can often be solved where the underlying language of the plaintext is not known for certain. One can also gain an immense knowledge of the structure and character of a communication without understanding a single thought expressed therein. For intergalactic communication, this offers much hope that we may succeed in deciphering what is received (203- 204.) As evidence that meaning is not crucial to decipherment, Deavours men- tions that the great French cryptanalyst, Georges Painvain, of World War I fame, solved many complex ciphers of the German General Staff but possessed so little knowledge of German that he was unable to translate the deci- phered text after solution (209). Not knowing the language need not impede understanding its shape and general characteristics. Such research could yield one great practical benefit down the road: upon receiving a Rosetta Stone, we would then be able to learn and read the language that much more quickly, perhaps well enough to begin using it ourselves. In the touchy and uncertain days immediately following alien contact, such an advantage might be very welcome indeed. This makes it all the more imperative to facilitate re- search with an effective network of data distribution. Figuring out what the grammar's shapes represent (if grammar it is, of course) will be tough, because the formations appear to lack all social context. There is no "Rosetta Stone" permitting them to be compared to a known symbol system; there are no objects helpfully put next to them to show what they depict or schematize; there are no appreciative alien enti- ties in view admiring them as art. Quite the contrary, they are placed wordlessly (so to speak) on this planet's largest equivalent of a blank, lined sheet of paper. But we should try. We can attempt to restore the context, or at least make one. Our guesses might be correct. But a worrying philosophical issue intrudes here. Let us say we guess a message--a meaning--and find out that the circles transmit it. Can we be sure that we have truly decoded the circles? Perhaps not. Humans are infinitely resourceful at seeing patterns that are not there. Edward R. Tufte, in his engaging book "Envisioning Information", reprints a picture of a rock in southern Massachusetts which is covered with ancient hieroglyphs.15 Next to the picture he reproduces ten hand-drawn sketches of the markings, made between 1680 and 1854. Not only are the sketches strikingly different, but different scholars have triumphantly adduced totally different origins for the glyphs: Scythian, Phoenician, Runic, Viking, and Algonquin, to name a few. Tufte cheerfully damns this as "scholarship of wishful thinking" (73). I am not sure if there is any way to solve the problem, other than asking the circlemakers what they mean (and even that might not help as much as we think it would.) My reaction is just to say, "Let us see what we can guess and find, then see which guess convinces the most people, and deal with the philosophical problems as they arise." The lack of context is significant in another way. It is a truism that symbols mean something only in a social context. If these shapes have a concrete and socially-based meaning to their creators, how are they changed by being engraved on fields on another planet? Suppose that the magnificent Fawley Down pictogram (a "theta" formation) refers to a Rigellian action which human physiologies cannot duplicate? If we know nothing of Rigellian physiology, we'll never figure that out, will we? And, more importantly, how does the meaning of the symbol change when it is stamped, without context or explanation, in a field of wheat near Winches- ter, England? What does the symbol mean at that particular place and time, if anything? Not, I feel sure, just to tell us what Rigellians do. What would a glowing Coca-Cola advertisement mean in a Brazilian rainfor- est where Coke is not available? Anything but "Buy Coke." Perhaps it would be (meant as, read as) an ironic statement on the extravagance of modern advertising. But if a picture of that advertisement in the rainfor- est was reproduced as an advertisement by Coke, the sign would again mean "Buy Coke"--but also something more, like "Coke is, or should be, available literally everywhere." Meaning is an event with multiple layers, most if not all of which are radically and subtly dependent on context. It is attractive to suppose that the formations are a sort of logical puzzle, like an IQ test. This would seem to make their context internal rather than external; the shapes would define their own context. But this argument is misleading. If one was presented with an IQ test without knowing what it was, or being shown how to work with the shapes pre- sented, it would be meaningless. The very idea of the logical puzzle is socially constructed. The Soviet psychologist A. R. Luria has shown that it is almost impossible to convey the idea of the syllogism to normally intelligent but nonliterate people. When Russian peasants were given the syllogistic puzzle In the Far North, where there is snow, all bears are white. Novaya Zembla is in the Far North and there is always snow there. What color are the bears?, a typical response was, "I don't know. I've seen a black bear. I've never seen any others. Each locality has its own animals." From their point of view, it was absurd to try to figure out the color of bears with logic, since bear coats are something you see, not deduce.16 The ideas of the logical puzzle and the transitive relationship are evidently learned, not inherent to human intelligence. If there is a logical pattern, it would be nothing simple to figure out, for the first thing we would have to do is figure out what has to be figured out. And that would almost certainly require the discovery of some external context, like an alien culture's way of thinking and reasoning. Unless, of course, the circlemakers have tried to use some human mode of reasoning. There are an enormous number of possibilities. A reading of the circles will not come easily. A lot will depend on the ability to make inspired guesses, and convince other people that they are right. The rest will depend on good data, good analytical tools, and vast amounts of hard work. But the potential payoff ought to make any linguist salivate. The field has ample room for the next Chompollon. 5. About Unconvincing Guesses Having put forward a guess (of a sort), let me say something about unconvincing guesses. I have seen quite a few articles purporting to decode individual formations to reveal some definite meaning, like "Kha- wah" ("life giver")17 or "This is a dangerous place to camp."18 The typical move in such guesses is to declare that the formation contains letters in an ancient language or elements from an obscure symbol system, and decode it by translating those letters/elements into English. I find these kinds of guesses uniformly unconvincing. If you compare the cir- cles to any language or symbol system, you'll score a number of hits. Compare them to English, and you'll find F's, O's, C's, Q's, I's, M's, and W's. Compare them to American traffic symbols, and you can find resem- blances to stoplights (i.e. three circles in a row), dashed lines on the road, and "no entry" signs. This second example is deliberately ludi- crous, but it illustrates the "Rorschach" quality of the phenomenon: one can see almost anything in it. Simple resemblance alone, let alone highly approximate resemblance, is a very shaky ground for decoding. It is also very common for such arguments to ignore the fact that the supposed "letters" and 'symbols" are stuck onto unrelated shapes, and otherwise distorted and garbled. It doesn't make sense to use an alphabet or symbol system by making it nearly unrecognizable. Finding a highly resemblant set of symbols could change the whole game, but to my knowledge, no one has accomplished this, not even Michael Green in his ambitious attempt to link the circles to designs on ancient Roman and Celtic stone carvings.19 Green finds several interesting similarities between ancient carvings and modern crop circles, but it's not enough to establish a meaningful link, since hundreds of formations have appeared in the last few years, and there are hundreds of Roman/Celtic shapes which look nothing like any known crop circle. More problematically, the Roman/Celtic shapes are typically combinations of circles, so the probabili- ty of a few rough matches by pure chance is very high. And, of course, even if the Celts were imitating crop circles seen thousands of years ago, their interpretations of them ("cosmic egg", "sun god", etc.) cannot be known to be the same as the intentions of the entities who generated them. They could be completely off the mark, as far as the circlemakers are concerned. The historical link would be exciting and valuable if Green could establish it more strongly, but it would be of little direct assistance in interpretative efforts. In sum, most would-be "decoders" look at a few formations, ignoring all the rest; they make no attempt to resolve diverse shapes into a sys- tem; they fail to consider disconfirming evidence. Instead, they Rorschach their theories into a small part of the phenomenon, and find exactly what they want to find. Of course, no one can avoid Rorschaching into the circles. I myself have read my hopes, beliefs, and professional biases into them. But one must at least try to consider the whole phenomenon and think about it systematically. Error may then be productive error. Anything else is only confusion. 6. The Future Looks Back on the Present: A Hopeful Guess There is far more that could be said, but I am probably pushing the limits of Mufon's printing budget with a paper of this size, and the patience of my readers as well. I will close, then, by offering a hopeful look at the present from the viewpoint of the future. Someday, there may be a paradigm which explains the crop circles to everybody's satisfaction. Then it will be difficult for people to see this strange and beautiful phenomenon any other way. But historians will be fascinated by the pre- paradigm writings of this era. To them our ways of seeing will look untutored and naive, but also fresh and new--the words of children seeing things for the first time. Despite their superior knowledge, they may envy us, we who have the extraordinary opportunity of first sight. Naivete is a rare gift. Let us use it well. Notes (1) R.M. Skinner, "A Seventeenth-Century Report of an Encounter with an Ionized Vortex?" Journal of Meteorology, November 1990, p. 346. The source is John Aubrey's Natural History of Wiltshire (publication date not given.) (2) John Haddington reports hearing and recording "a strange and beauti- ful trilling noise" in a circle at Bishops Canning, 1990. See his "The Wansdyke Watch", The Cereologist, issue 1 (Summer 1990), p. 15. (3) David J. Reynolds, "Possibility of a Crop Circle from 1590." Journal of Meteorology, November 1990, pp. 347-352. The text is Robert Plott's The Natural History of Stafford-shire, Oxford, 1686. (4) Plott, p. 15 (italics in original.) I am grateful to Carl Carpenter for sending me a xerox of the relevant chapter of the book, pages 7-21. (5) For examples of the former, see Delgado and Andrews' Circular Evidence (Bloomsbury Press, 1989), pp. 179-190. For examples of the latter, see Terence Meaden, The Circles Effect and its Mysteries (Artetech, 1989) especially chapter 2. (6) Proceedings of the First International Conference on the Circles Effect (held at Oxford Polytechnic, June 23, 1990), p. 50. This has been reprint- ed as Circles From the Sky. The April 1991 issue of the Mufon UFO Journal contains a large bibliography which includes ordering information for most of the books cited in this paper. (7) University of Chicago Press, 1962. (8) Proceedings, p. 39. The event is also discussed in The Circles Effect and its Mysteries, p. 55. (9) Michael Green, "The Rings of Time: The Symbolism of the Crop Circles." In The Crop Circle Enigma (Gateway Books, 1990, ed. Ralph Noyes) p. 139. (10) Quoted in Kuhn, p. 18. (11) Michael Chorost and Colin Andrews, "The Summer 1990 Crop Circles", Mufon UFO Journal, December 1990, pp. 3-14. (12) Some people have tried to define what we can presume. Gregory Benford: "The most extreme view one can take is to reject any category of knowledge of the alien, declaring them all to be inherently anthropomor- phic or anthropocentric, and flatly declare that the alien is fundamentally unknowable" (26). Benford later goes on to suggest, though, that we may be able to expand our categories to include alien ways of knowing: "We can make ourselves greater. We can ingest the alien" (27). ("Aliens and Unknowability: A Scientist's Perspective", in Starship, vol. 43, Winter- Spring 1982-3, pp. 25-27.) On the other hand, Marvin Minsky argues that alien intelligence is likely to resemble ours, because "every evolving intel- ligence will eventually encounter certain very special ideas--e.g. about arithmetic, causal reasoning, and economics--because these particular ideas are very much simpler than other ideas with similar uses" (127). (Byte, April 1985, pp. 127-138.) Speculation is useful for defining the problem, but it's rather like Robinson Crusoe trying to do sociology. (13) Lewis White Beck, "Extraterrestrial Intelligent Life." In Extraterrestri- als: Science and Alien Intelligence, edited by Edward Regis, Jr. Cam- bridge University Press, 1985. (14) Cipher A. Deavours, "Extraterrestrial Communication: A Cryptologic Perspective", in Extraterrestrials: Science and Alien Intelligence. pp. 201- 214. (Interestingly enough, the author's name is not a joke.) (15) Edward R. Tufte, Envisioning Information. Graphics Press, Cheshire, Connecticut, 1990. (16) Luria's finding is discussed in Walter J. Ong, Orality and Literacy: The Technologizing of the Word (New York: Methuen, 1982), pp. 52-53. (17) Letter by Ernest P. Moyer, reprinted in Focus (Dec. 31, 1990), p. 16. (18) Jon Erik Beckjord, broadside sheet, February 1991. (19) Michael Green, "The Rings of Time: The Symbolism of the Crop Circles." In The Crop Circles Enigma, Gateway Books, 1990, pp. 137-171. About the Author Michael Chorost was educated at Brown and the University of Texas at Austin, and is now at Duke, working toward his Ph.D. in Renaissance liter- ature and philosophy of language. His first article on the subject, "The Summer 1990 Crop Circles", was coauthored with Colin Andrews and was published in December 1990's Mufon UFO Journal. He has also authored a bibliography of the phenomenon. The author may be contacted at: North American Circle P.O. Box 61144 Durham, NC 27705-1144 EOF ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: File: Don Ecker/Lars Hansson expose on Cooper,Lear pt1 Message-ID: <1991Sep18.034643.25422@bilver.uucp> Date: 18 Sep 91 03:46:43 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 655 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2060 alt.conspiracy:7180 sci.skeptic:15181 The following are a compilation of message traffic that was introduced on the ASK_UFO echo on the ParaNet UFO network by contributing editor, Don Ecker of UFO MAGAZINE. This file is for anyone that has ever read any materials by Milton William Cooper or John Lear and made you _wonder_ about these individuals. Incidentally, Don Ecker did a 2 part series last year called "The Whistleblowers" that featured a thorough investigation of Bill Cooper and did a wonderful job, in my opinion. :-) This is part 1 of 2 parts. -------- Expose part 1 ---------------------------------------------- Message #7181 - ASK_UFO Date : 30-Aug-91 0:32 From : Don Ecker To : ALL Subject : EXPOSE The following message may seem a bit obtuse at first, but please read on for a moment and you will catch what is going on. In my job as Director of Research for UFO Magazine, I get to meet sometimes strange but also very interesting people. Also as Director, I oft times get documents, books, and papers for the mag that I can peruse before most of the public. Also, having been involved with ParaNet since the end of 1987 the beginning of 1988, I have seen a lot happen in the field and with ParaNet both good and bad. Late in 1987 Jim Speiser, the founder of ParaNet was at the helm as Director. I was Co-Sysop with the old ParaNet RHO, now no longer in service. In late December 1987, Jim Speiser received the now famous, or perhaps more to the point, infamous *LEAR.DOC* that set parts of the UFO field on fire. For any of you that were not around then, for months and finally years, and now even, people have read Lears paper, and the turmoil continued. Months later, after Lear "surfaced", another character hit the field. This guys name is now also famous, or more to the point, infamous ** Milton William Cooper. Cooper, now known for his attacks on most researchers, accusing them of being govt. agents, etc. was much more restrained in those days. After Lear had his paper posted, many of the then ParaNet users, had many questions for "Lear and Co." As time went on, Lear grew tired of people asking him about sources, etc. and more often than not would fire back. Cooper then began to ally himself with Lear. Cooper came on the seen with a report about having sighted a UFO while a crew member on a U. S. Sub, the TIRU. A short while later, after covertly sending a file to Speiser to be forwarded to Stanton Friedman, and then also sending a file to me to send to Friedman, ( without Speiser or me knowing about the other ) Cooper began to upload all kinds of wondrous files with some outrageous claims and documents. Of course he also came under some fire here because he could not prove one damn thing that he claimed either. AND, OF COURSE ONE HELL OF A LOT MORE HAPPENED. But we will leave that for another day. What is all of this, and why is it here? Well, one of Coopers big drawing cards at his $25.00 and $35.00 per head lectures has been the Kennedy Murder. Cooper has been showing a VERY POOR COPY of the famous Zapruder film that "looks as if" the driver of Kennedy's car turns around and shoots him with a pistol. The film was originally worked on by a Kennedy researcher by the name of Lars Hansson. For any of you that read my two parter on Cooper in UFO Magazine, in part two Hansson discussed this entire sorry episode. But you are still asking what is this about? Ok....... During all this business with Lear, Cooper, etc. Hansson was off and on in Las Vegas, and spent a great deal of time with Lear. Hansson lived for a while in Lears guest house, did odd jobs for Lear while working on his research, and Lears UFO stuff. Hansson was right in the middle of Lear, Cooper, Lazar, and many other things, and for a number of reasons, Hansson and Lear "fell out". Hansson also has been a very active researcher in illegal government covert operations, arms trade, Iran-Contra, etc., and has just finished an explosive expose entitled "UFOs, ALIENS, and `Ex'-intelligence Agents: Who's Fooling Whom?" The Inside Story of John Lear, Bill Cooper, and The Greatest Coverup in Human History. This is a 300 page AFFIDAVIT by Lars Hansson, and is available for $25.00 plus 3.00 postage and handling. If you are interested you can send for it at; Paragon Research & Publications P.O. Bx 981 Orlando, FL. 32802 I have gone through my files, and the next several messages go back to those days in 1988 and 1989. After I get those messages up, read them and then in a couple days I will upload sections from Hansson's book. If you are interested in the real story ( other than UFO Magazine of course ) of what went on with Lear, Cooper, the U.S. Govt. and what may have been behind Lear, et. al, this is one that you will not want to miss. Documents, phone calls, arms shipments, alleged involvement in the Marcos Gold shipments, Iran-Contra, CIA airlines, CIA pilots, folks like G. Gordon Liddy, Gordon Novel, they are all here and a part of the story. UFOs? Yep, they are here to. The inside story on what may have been going on at S-4, Lazar, etc. How Cooper took all these stories and wove his tale from whole cloth. Prostitutes, bad cops, the A.I.D.s virus, and a possible cure that had been discovered, the whole damn thing is incredible. At any rate, the book will give pause for thought. Ok, lets go on a short time trip back to 1988. Don Ecker PS It is late, so if parts of the above do not make much sense, remember, I knew what it was that I wanted to say........ :-( --- FD 1.99c * Origin: ParaNet Alpha-Delta The DATA Base (9:1012/3.0) Message #7182 - ASK_UFO Date : 30-Aug-91 0:34 From : Don Ecker To : All Subject : Expose II This is from October 1988 ******************************************************* The question is often asked, why don't more military UFO witnesses come forward publicly, and provide names, dates and places? Surely they aren't REALLY intimidated by such empty threats as JANAP 146-E, which provides for hefty fines and jail sentences for breaking silence on a military UFO sighting. Surely they realize the scien- tific import of their sighting transcends any nationalist or mili- tary considerations. If more military witnesses don't come forth publicly, isn't it possible that there aren't really as many as hardcore ufologists would have us believe? Its a question I've often asked myself. ParaNet is deeply indebted to, and a little honored by, user Bill Cooper of Fullerton, California, for this, the first known report of a multiple military witness sighting that occurred onboard the submarine USS Tiru in 1966. --Jim Speiser ------------------------------------------------------------- In 1966 during the month of the Rose Festival in the Pacific Northwest United States, the USS Tiru SS-416 left Pearl Harbor bound for Seattle Washington. The sub moored to a civilian pier near the downtown Seattle area and thousands of people toured the sub during its stay in Seattle. After its duty as "showboat" it proceeded to a back bay area where it underwent torpedo trials. I believe the area was called dabob bay [pronounced day-bob] but I am not sure of the spelling. I include the above information because it should be easy to research. During the cruise from Pearl to Seattle five of the crew had a very unusual experience. During one late afternoon the sub was cruising on the surface at approx. 10 knots when the port lookout reported a strange contact at a range of 2 miles bearing 315 degrees relative. The lookout refused to tell the OOD what it was that he had seen and instead insisted that the starboard lookout and the OOD both look at that area. The three men looked through their binoculars toward the area reported and were astounded to see a metal craft larger than a football field tumble from the clouds into the ocean. It actually tumbled end over end and when it hit the water and sank beneath the ocean huge geysers of water rose into the air. When the port lookout was sure that the others had seen it he then told the OOD that he had seen it tumble from the ocean up into the clouds. The OOD and the starboard lookout were speechless. Within a few minutes, however, they all became excited when it again rose from the water and tumbled up into the cloud layer. At about the same time a crew member below queried the bridge about a radar contact at the same range and bearing. Sonar also reported strange echos. The OOD called for the Captain to come to the bridge at that time. He also called for the camera to be sent to the bridge. The Captain arrived on the bridge within 2 minutes and the Chief Quartermaster was right behind him with the camera. At about the same time the object emerged from the clouds and fell down into the ocean. All five men witnessed this. The QMC took pictures as it rose up into the clouds and then back down into the ocean once again. The five men watched for quite a while longer but nothing else happened. Soon the sub had moved out of visual range and the Captain told all witnesses that they were never to discuss what they had seen with anyone under any circumstances. He stated that the incident was classified information. The Captain then went below and sent a radio msg. There was no doubt as to what we had seen. It was a metal craft with machinery on and around the outside of it. It appeared to have windows or lenses placed around its perimeter. It made no noise that we could hear. It did not disturb the subs electrical systems nor did it affect the gyro compass. It looked very much like a round flying "ship" as in sea going ship. It had the shape and form of a saucer with a bowl inverted in the saucer and it was huge. I will never forget it as long as I live. When I first saw this craft I believe that my heart literally stopped beating and I was terrified. The name of the OOD was Ensign Ball. The starboard lookout was an American Indian seaman that the crew called Geronimo. The port lookout was a new man who left the sub soon after the return to Pearl Harbor and his name was Cooper. I do not remember the Captain's name nor the Chief Quartermaster's name. This is the first time I have ever mentioned it since the moment that the Captain told me that it was classified. As far as I know it has never been reported to the public before this instant. It should be easy to verify the facts if you can get a copy of the log and/or contact the other witnesses. The names should not be too hard to find in the ships records/logs. I was the port lookout. I must say that I feel a great uneasyness in posting this, much like the way I felt in Vietnam when my life was in great danger. Press ENTER to continue: --- FD 1.99c * Origin: ParaNet Alpha-Delta The DATA Base (9:1012/3.0) Message #7183 - ASK_UFO Date : 30-Aug-91 0:35 From : Don Ecker To : All Subject : Expose III ALSO FROM OCT. 1988 ******************************************************************** -In light of some of the controversy surrounding Lear.txt, perhaps it would be helpful to refer to some statements attributed to John Lear's father, the late William P. Lear, pertaining to possible UFO technology. They are excerpted from the 1978 book entitled "The Cosmic Conspiracy". They are presented here merely as interesting anecdotes, which may also be helpful to an understanding of what has influenced John Lear. -Tom Mickus Excerpt #1 =========== "William P. Lear, inventor and chairman of the board of Lear, Inc., one of the nation's largest electronics firms specializing in aviation, for months has been going over new developments and theories relating to gravity with his chief scientists and engineers". "...He is convinced that it will be possible to create artificial electro- gravitational fields 'whose polarity can be controlled to cancel out gravity". "...'All the (mass) materials and human beings within these fields will be part of them. They will be adjustable so as to increase or decrease the weight of any object in its surroundings. They won't be affected by the earth's gravity or that of any celestial body". 'This means that if any person was in an anti-gravitational airplane or space ship that carried along its own gravitational field - no matter how fast you accelerated or changed course - your body wouldn't any more feel it than it now feels the speed of the earth' ". "...Eugene M. Gluhareff, president of Gluhareff Helicopter and Airplane Corp. of Manhattan Beach, Calif., has made several theoretical design studies of round or saucer-shaped 'vehicles' for travel into outer space..." It might also be of some interest to the reader that this author witnessed the late William P. Lear making another nationwide statement on a daytime, American television program in about 1969-70. This later statement was made in response to a question from the emcee who wanted to know what Mr. Lear envisioned the next twenty years producing in new technology. Mr. Lear told him that a person would be able to, say, walk into a New York "travel" booth - somewhat similar to a telephone box in shape; - deposit his fare; push a button; and walk out the other side of the booth in San Francisco - having been "teleported" across America in seconds! The studio audience automatically laughed at Mr. Lear - much to their uninformed discredit. Mr. Lear just gaped at their performance in utter amazement. How painfully sad and lonely he must have felt at that moment when he realized the great gulf that separated the viewing audience from the realities he had already witnessed in the laboratory... He was a kind and sincere man; and this author, for one, feels a great loss at Mr. Lear's recent death... Excerpt #2 =========== In his book of 1957, entitled, "The Flying Saucer Conspiracy", Donald Keyhoe also mentioned some rather indicting news on pages 200-201: "On 2nd February, while visiting Bogota, Columbia, William P. Lear manufacturer of aircraft and electronic equipment, told a news conference that the flying saucers are real". "When Lear's story was flashed to the United States by the AP, it was a hard blow for the UFO censors. But this was only the beginning. Within twenty-four hours Lear amplified his first statement: 'I feel the flying saucers are real', he said, 'because of four points'. First, he said, there have been numerous manifestations over long periods of time. Second, many observations have been made simultaneously by reliable observers. Third, there are great possibilities linked with the theory of gravitational fields. Fourth, there are now serious efforts in progress to prove the existence of anti-gravitational forces and to convert atomic energy directly to electricity". "This new AP story dismayed the Pentagon, for it could easily disclose our top-secret research to duplicate the UFO's propulsion. There had already been one hint despite Pentagon precautions. During a meeting of aviation leaders in New York, on the 25th of January, G.S. Trimble, vice- president of advance design for the Glenn L. Martin Aircraft Company, had made an amazing disclosure... "Unlimited power, freedom form gravitational attraction, and infinitely short travel time are now becoming feasible', he told the press. Then he added that eventually all commercial air transpor- tation would be in vehicles operating on these fantastic principles". --- FD 1.99c * Origin: ParaNet Alpha-Delta The DATA Base (9:1012/3.0) Message #7184 - ASK_UFO Date : 30-Aug-91 0:37 From : Don Ecker To : All Subject : EXPOSE IV From 1988 ******************************************************************** #: 154899 S10/Paranormal Issues 25-Oct-88 02:25:12 Sb: LEAR.TXT Fm: Sysop Jim Speiser 72135,424 To: All I'd like to clear up one issue that seems to be bubbling under the surface of some of these discussions. A lot of people have taken an interest in LEAR.TXT, because of its obvious spectacular nature, because of its somewhat famous author, and more recently, because to the inexperienced follower, some of what John has said would seem to have been born out by the recent TV special. I think a short chronology of events will put things in perspective. The two gentlemen you saw on UFO COVER-UP LIVE, Bill Moore and Jamie Shandera, have been working on the MJ-12 angle since the early part of this decade. Condor and Falcon are their alleged contacts. The MJ-12 documents were first hinted at in the fall of 1986, when they were shown to Lee Graham, who leaked them to CAUS, which published a two-part article on the documents in their Fall 1986 issue. The documents were first released in April of 1987, at which time Moore's Fair Witness Project sent them to several Ufologists, myself among them. As far as I know, ParaNet was the first place that the documents became publicly viewable. It was around this time that John Lear was beginning to make a name for himself in Ufology. He showed up at the MUFON symposium in Washington that June, where Moore, Friedman and Shandera made a splash with the Documents. They had already made a splash the previous month at the National UFO Conference in Burbank, where they had made the first of their oft-repeated promises of releasing more information in the future. From the start, "more information" included videotapes of government agents spilling their guts about the cover-up and telling of underground bases and secret deals. Press for next or type CHOICES !10 #: 154900 S10/Paranormal Issues 25-Oct-88 02:25:35 Sb: LEAR.TXT continued Fm: Sysop Jim Speiser 72135,424 To: All In late November or early December of 1987, John Lear went to Los Angeles to visit with Moore. He told me personally that Moore had shown him much of his information (whether that included the actual videotapes or not, I don't know). In late December of 1987, I received LEAR.TXT from John, and was asked to have it typed up and released through ParaNet. It was early January by the time I was able to comply. It wasn't clear from the actual LEAR.TXT document, but in a cover letter (which was not at first supplied to ParaNet), John had said that the contents constituted his "hypothesis," a sort of distillation of things he had come across from various sources, including Moore, Steinman's book "UFO Crash at Aztec," Len Stringfield's work, and information he had culled from several intelligence contacts. My point is this: I have no way of telling at this time whether the information presented by Moore, Shandera, Falcon or Condor is true, but there is no reason for people to point to the testimonials of Falcon and Condor and say that they tend to corroborate Lear's hypothesis, because there is no reason to believe they are not the SOURCE of Lear's hypothess, at least in large part. In other words, Lear happened to have an inside track before most of you had even heard of this stuff. I'm only posting this so that people's attention doesn't get misdirected from the true issues. Whether or not Moore-Shandera-Friedman have the real goods, the ball is in THEIR court and not Lear's. There will be a further statement on this forthcoming from MSF themselves. Watch for it here. Jim Press for next or type CHOICES ! --- FD 1.99c * Origin: ParaNet Alpha-Delta The DATA Base (9:1012/3.0) Message #7185 - ASK_UFO Date : 30-Aug-91 0:38 From : Don Ecker To : All Subject : EXPOSE V From 1988, but since this was uploaded, the author, Milton Cooper has changed it six or seven times. ******************************************************************** DISCLOSURE OF THIS INFORMATION IS AN ATTEMPT TO PROTECT AND PRESERVE THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. THE GROUP KNOWN AS MAJESTIC TWELVE HAS ENGAGED IN A VILE CONSPIRACY THAT HAS IGNORED THE LAW OF THE LAND AND THE PRINCIPLES OF FREEDOM THAT THE UNITED STATES WAS FOUNDED UPON. THEY HAVE TAKEN IT UPON THEMSELVES TO INSTITUTE UNLAWFUL AND DANGEROUS PROJECTS WHICH HAS ENDANGERED THE NATION AND THE HUMAN RACE. THE DISCLOSURE GROUP CONSISTS OF INDIVIDUALS WHO HAVE SWORN TO UPHOLD AND PROTECT T E CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES. WE HOPE AND PRAY THAT THIS DISCLOSURE WILL ENCOURAGE OTHERS CONNECTED WITH THIS CONSPIRACY TO MAKE SIMILAR DISCLOSURES. WE ASK THAT THIS STATEMENT REMAIN ATTACHED TO THIS INFORMATION. WE SEEK NO REWARD OR PUBLIC ACCLAIM. WE ONLY SEEK TO EXPOSE THIS ACT AS A CRIMINAL ASSUALT UPON THE UNITED STATES AND THE HUMAN RACE. MAJESTIC TWELVE (PROWORD) MAJIC MAJESTIC TWELVE, MAJESTIC 12, MAJESTIC-12, MJ-12, MAJIC, are all forms of the code name for the control group authorized by President Truman on 09/24/47. The Director of the Central Intelligenge Agency (CIA) is the Director of Majestic Twelve, MJ-1. The control group was formed to oversee a TOP SECRET Research and Development & Intelligence Operation and was responsible only to the President. The need for this group was dictated by the finding of a downed FLYING SAUCER scattered over 2 sites near the town of Roswell New Mexico in July 1947. The dead bodys of 4 very small human like ALIENS were also found. MAJESTIC TWELVE is the most highly classified secret in the United States and its existance has never been divulged to Congress. The funds for MJ-12 and Aquarius are CIA confidential (non-appropriated). DOCUMENTS MAJESTIC TWELVE documents can be identified by the following; TOP SECRET/MAJIC/RESTRICTED DATA EYES ONLY COPY___OF___ TOP SECRET/MAJIC/RESTRICTED EYES ONLY COPY___OF___ TOP SECRET/MAJIC EYES ONLY COPY___OF___ One of the above will appear both at the top and bottom of each page. You will never see one version in a document along with any other version. Also on each page will appear; T52-EXEMPT (E) or just EXEMPT. T52 is the publication outlining procedures for automatic downgrade of all security classifications and the time period for declassification of each security level. This information is never to be declassified. Each page of each document will be numbered consecutively and the number of pages will appear upon the cover sheet. Copys of MAJESTIC TWELVE beyond the original number are forbidden. PROJECTS under MAJESTIC TWELVE The operations listed here were current as late as 1976 with absolute certainty and are still operational to the best of our knowledge. The names of the original operations were changed several times over the years and eventually evolved into those listed. PROJECT SIGN (PROWORD) MAJIC The first project under MAJESTIC TWELVE. The mission of project sign was essentially the same as that which PROJECT AQUARIUS evolved into. PROJECT SIGN referred to aliens as Extraterrestrial Biological Entities. The reasons for the absorbtion of PROJECT SIGN by PROJECT AQUARIUS were mainly of a political and security nature. PROJECT AQUARIUS stripped the Air Force and Army Generals of their historic control of the UFO/IAC projects and placed most of it under the Intelligence umbrella. PROJECT AQUARIUS (PROWORD) MAJIC Established in 1953 by President Eisenhower under control of MJ-12 and PROJECT SIGN. The Project contains all information collected by the United States since it began investigating UFO's (Unidentified Flying Objects) and IAC's (Identified Alien Craft). At the time we saw this information it existed in approximately 15 or 16 volumes. This project became an independent project when PROJECT SIGN was eliminated in 1960. PROJECT AQUARIUS referred to aliens as Alien Life Forms. The mission of PROJECT AQUARIUS was to gather all scientific, technological, medical, and intelligence information from UFO & IAC sightings and contacts with Alien Life Forms. The information was to be used in the space program. PROJECT SIGMA (PROWORD) AQUARIUS Established in 1954 as part of PROJECT SIGN. The mission of PROJECT SIGMA was to establish communication with the aliens. First communication was established in 1959 through binary computer language. On April 25, 1964 a USAF (OSI) officer met with aliens at a prearranged desert location in New Mexico. Information was exchanged and a basic understanding was reached after several hours. It was learned through this effort that several species of alien life existed. Communication was eventually established with all of them. Through communications it was determined that 3 catagorys existed. The three catagorys are MALEVOLENT (DANGEROUS), BENEVOLENT (GOOD-HELPFUL), and NEUTRAL (OBSERVERS ONLY) The project has been extremely successful. PROJECT PLATO (PROWORD) AQUARIUS Established in 1960 after the United States established communications with the aliens. The mission of PROJECT PLATO was to establ ish diplomatic re lations with the aliens. Project Plato made agreements in order to prevent hostilitys between the United States and the aliens. An agreement was made with the MALEVOLENT aliens whereby they could abduct humans. The purpose of these abductions were to provide blood and other biological fluids as food for the aliens. The aliens agreed to furnish a list periodically to MJ-12 of the names of those abducted. PROJECT PLATO took whatever steps neccessary to prevent public disclosure. * PROJECT PLUTO (PROWORD) AQUARIUS Established in 1947 after the Roswell incident. The mission of PROJECT PLUTO was to recover all crashed or downed alien craft, to recover all evidence of alien presence or technology, and to recover all alien bodies (alive or dead). PROJECT PLUTO developed cover stories to satisfy press and civilian curiosity. PROJECT PLUTO was authorized use of deadly force and/or relocation to insure secrecy. PROJECT PLUTO was responsible for and biological intelligence of the Alien Life Forms. PROJECT POUNCE (PROWORD) AQUARIUS Established in 1968. The mission of PROJECT POUNCE was to evaluate all UFO/IAC information pertaining to space technology. The goal was to duplicate the technology and/or improve upon it. Ultimate use of the technology would establish the United States as the dominate world power and close the gap in any confrontation with the aliens. PROJECT REDLIGHT (PROWORD) AQUARIUS Established in 1954. The mission REDLIGHT was to test a recovered alien craft. The mission was accomplished in part only. PROJECT REDLIGHT was terminated in 1963 after every (flyable) recovered craft exploded during test flights. There were no survivors among the human test pilots. PROJECT SNOWBIRD (PROWORD) AQUARIUS Established in 1972. The mission of PROJECT SNOWBIRD was to test fly a recovered alien craft. The project was on going the last time I saw this information. PROJECT ???????? (PROWORD) AQUARIUS (NOTE...We are recall the name of this project nor have we been able to get response from anyone on it. At the time we saw the information the project was ongoing. It cannot be determined if this project is still in existence.) The mission of this project was to develop a low frequency pulsed sound generator. The energy produced from this generator was to be concentrated so that it could be aimed and used as a weapon in order to destroy the alien craft and beam weapons. The alien beam weapons were described as ange but able to incapacitate or destroy any weapons system known to date (1972). The aliens also possess a beam weapon which is described as being able to paralyse any human within range. Tests were described as having shown that the alien craft and weapons were extremely sensitive to low frequency pulsed sound waves. This weapon was to be used to incapacitate the alien defenses in order to allow PROJECT EXCALIBUR to succeed in its mission. The initial technology used in this project was capture the Germans during WW- II. The German sound generators were described as being able to knock down reinforced concrete buildings and shatter 4" thick armour from a great range. This technology is believed to further substantiate that Germany had recovered alien craft and had possibly had some dealings with the aliens prior to or during WW-II. Documents captured during and after WW-II indicated that an alien craft had been recovered by Germany in 1939. A German built flying saucer was captured dur last few months of WW-II. PROJECT EXCALIBUR (PROWORD) AQUARIUS Established in 1972. The mission of PROJECT EXCALIBUR is to develop a weapons system capable of destroying the alien underground base after the alien beam weapons have been incapacitated or destroyed. The alien underground base is located beneath an indian reservation near the small town of Dulce, New Mexico. The device must be capable of penetrating 1,000 meters of tufa / hard pack soil and sustain no operational damage. This typ is commonly found in New Mexico where the alien base is located. Missile apogee must not exceed 30,000 feet AGL. Impact deviation will now exceed 50 meters. The device will carry a 1 megaton warhead. PROJECT BLUE BOOK A U.S. Air Force project establiahed to determine whether UFO's pose a threat to the security of the United States and to determine whether UFO's exhibit any unique scientific information or advanced technology which could contribute to scientific or technical research. PROJECT was successful in its primary mission outlined above. PROJECT BLUE BOOK was not quite so successful in its secondary mission which was to publicly explain away the UFO phenomenon as natural or known phenomenon in order to eleminate public interest. To completely fulfill the secondary mission it was decided that an outside commission of distinguished scientists would be convened in order to permanantly lay the issue to rest. After this 'study' was completed (Condon Commission) the Air Force state the continuation of Project Blue Book cannot be justified, either on the ground of national security or in the interest of science. PROJECT BLUE BOOK was abandoned and its mission and information was consolidated under PROJECT AQUARIUS in 1969. SCIENTIFIC STUDY OF UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECTS Contracted to the University of Colorado in 1966 and Chaired by Dr. Edward U. Condon. The results of the panel were dictated before the first meeting. Despite objections of the other panel members, Dr. Cond le to fulfill the mission. The general conclusion was that "nothing has come from the study of UFOs in the past 21 years that has added to scientific knowledge." A panel from the National Academy of Sciences agreed. The press and the public were satisfied. Except for a hard core element of UFO believers the issue died in the public forum. OPERATION UFO (NSA OPERATION IN SUPPORT OF PROJECT PLUTO) The mission of Operation UFO was to form intelligence teams versed in all of the knowledge learned which would be the first on scene of any UFO crash site in order to secure the technology and prevent it from falling into foreign hands. Several teams existed over the world. The United States was specifically concerned that it did not fall into Soviet hands. This mission was to be accomplished no matter the country of occurrance. Many subsequent ALIEN CRAFT recoverys would occur in foreign countrys as well as the United States. UFO was also used to recover downed space hardware (especially So d to recover nuclear weapons which became lost (usually by accident). OPERATION MOONDUST (SUPPORTED SPACE PROGRAM & UFO) The mission of Operation Moondust was to provide a cover which would neutralize public curiosity while recovery of an ALIEN CRAFT was being conducted. The teams that made up the compliment of Moondust were the same teams that made up UFO. Moondust was made public and its mission (to the public) was to identify and recover United States space hardware which might fall to earth. s a bonified mission when circumstances dictated. OPERATION BLUEFLY (SUPPORTED UFO & MOONDUST) The mission of operation Bluefly was to provide QUICK REACTION COMBAT TEAMS known as ALPHA teams (fight for technology if neccessary), mechanical and technological support in recovery, rapid and secure transport to secure storage and examination areas. There are several of these storage and examination areas in order to limit distance traveled and thus limit the possible chance of an accident that cou e cargo to public knowledge. Several teams existed over the world. Recovery and transport of both EBEs (dead or alive) and Alien craft were accomplished. Bluefly was also utilized in event of recovery of space objects (of terrestrial origin), and event of recovery of lost nuclear weapons (usually due to accident). NOTE....This account of the history and current status of MAJESTIC TWELVE and the Alien Life Forms has been kept brief. We believe that the intent, however, has been served with th on provided. The whole story would fill several hundred volumes. We realize that even with the combined effort of several memorys we have probably made some mistakes. We have tried to minimize the mistakes and feel that what is represented is true and correct to the best of our combined knowledge. --- FD 1.99c * Origin: ParaNet Alpha-Delta The DATA Base (9:1012/3.0) -------- Continued in Expose Part 2 ------------------------------------------ Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: FILE: Don Ecker/Lars Hansson expose on Cooper,Lear pt2 Message-ID: <1991Sep18.034838.25490@bilver.uucp> Date: 18 Sep 91 03:48:38 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 457 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2061 alt.conspiracy:7181 sci.skeptic:15182 ------- Expose part 2 (conclusion) ------------------------------------- Message #7186 - ASK_UFO Date : 30-Aug-91 0:40 From : Don Ecker To : All Subject : EXPOSE VI From 1988 ******************************************************************* LEAR AND COOPER: AN EXPLANATION (But Not an Apology) Jim Speiser 10/26/88 Ordinarily, I don't feel I have to explain my actions regarding this board or this network. I think I've developed a pretty good reputa- tion for reliability and fairness. I certainly owe nothing in the way of an explanation to Messrs. Cooper and Lear. However, I can see where some confusion may have arisen regarding my actions, especial- ly on the part of Don Ecker, whom I have a great deal of respect for, and on the part of other users who have discreetly inquired as to my reasons. These things always seem to come best in the form of chronologies, and so, a brief chronology follows. Bill Cooper first contacted this board with a story of a sighting he had on board a submarine in 1966. The story (TIRU-1.UFO) was forward- ed to Vickie Cooper for inclusion in a possible story in UFO Maga- zine. It was also sent to Stan Friedman for verification. This was back in August. I learned from Vickie Cooper that Bill (no relation) had had a con- versation with her in which the Majestic-12 documents had come up. When she mentioned the "proword" "MAJIC", he claimed to have seen that word on several documents back in his days with CINCPACFLT (Commander in Chief, Pacific Fleet). About a week later, I received the first of many files from Cooper, in which he implied that he had firsthand contact with or knowledge of individuals connected with MJ- 12. (see GUIDANCE.DOC). He further implied that anyone possessing this knowledge was in great danger. I forwarded this file to both Stanton Friedman and Jamie Shandera, to see whether any of the in- formation in it checked out. I later found out that it did not. In the meantime, Cooper took a more active role in the public mes- sage base. He claimed publicly that he had lost his $75,000/year job as a marketing director, two days after having spoken with Stan Friedman. He stated that he would not be providing any more info for this reason. In the meantime, several more documents written by Cooper filtered through the ParaNet system, by way of our Ft. Smith board. They were uploaded anonymously, but were written by Cooper. They each contained the same preamble, which claimed that the info was for myself and for Stanton Friedman only, and that we were in great danger for possessing the info contained therein. (DANGER.DOC, MUGGER.DOC, PICNIC2.DOC). At around this time, a user named Jeff Felix began using the board, and asked via chat for a private meeting between him and myself. We set up a meet at the Jerry's on Scottsdale Road in Tempe (the same one at which the Phoenix Skeptics hold their monthly meetings.) At this meeting, Felix, who is all of about 24, told a bizarre tale of having been an NSA cryptology technician, of having been "fooling around" on the NSA computer, trying to come up with an encryption program, and had "stumbled across" the Majestic file, the Aquarius file, the whole ball of wax. "Its all true," he told us, "the under- ground bases, the aliens, the crashed saucers, etc." He claimed that with a modified modem, he could get back in to the files. Naturally, I was extremely skeptical, and a few days later when I asked Felix a few questions on the phone, testing his knowledge of the most basic intelligence terminology, I became flat-out incredulous when he failed the test. What was even more revealing was that Bill Cooper had provided me with some of the questions I asked Felix, and I have a captured chat session with Cooper in which he expressed his doubts of Felix's veracity. In my last online chat with Felix, he mentioned something called Project X-calibur (his spelling). He said he had discussed it with Cooper on the phone before he had called me. Cooper later told me that no, Felix had not mentioned it. He told me he had heard of it, but that it was VERY Top Secret, above his level. He said he didn't know anything more about it. Much to my surprise, Cooper later called to tell me that Project Excalibur is real, that his sources told him it was a project by MJ- 12 to extract technology from the aliens. He told me that it was important I get in touch with Felix, that if "the kid knows about [Excalibur], he's for real." Felix, in the meantime, would give me no information about Excalibur, except that a friend of his who had done the same thing he had (broken into the NSA's Cray-3 computer, the most advanced and secure supercomputer in the world), had "stum- bled across" the Excalibur file. My thinking on Cooper and Felix at this time began to center on the thought that the two of them were scamming me behind my back, and I had visions of having ParaNet become a home for unwed paranoids. When John LEar returned from his long absence, and began to join with Cooper in a series of mutual admiration sessions, I saw things getting out of control. I knew by now that Cooper was either engaging in fantasy role-play- ing, or something more sinister. The word "disinformation" has been bandied about quite freely during this entire MJ-12 mess. Now, please consider: Cooper's credentials as a Naval NCO with a back- ground in intelligence seem to check out. His information is self- contradicting and paranoid, and does NOT check out, at least with the several intelligence sources I have contacted. After the UFO COVER-UP broadcast, Cooper sent ANOTHER file by way of ParaNet RHO in BOISE, called his 10-15-88 Position Paper. In it he completely contradicts his entire previous thesis, and claims that the MJ-12 scenario as painted by Moore's group (and implicitly, by himself) is a hoax. Further, he claims to be in full agreement with John Lear (which agreement seems to be mutual, based on Lear's support of Cooper). Now I ask you, if agents of disinformation are at work to discredit the field of Ufology, who is the more likely suspect? Moore/Shandera/Friedman, who claimed from the beginning to have videotapes of bona fide government agents, and produced them for live TV, or Cooper/Lear, who seemingly plagiarized the Moore docu- ments, gave them a slightly different spin, then turned around and contradicted themselves the moment it became public knowledge, and can't even seem to agree with each other, yet support each other publicly? My locking out of Cooper was actually on the advice of Cooper himself, who accused William Pitts and the New Project Blue Book of being a military intelligence cover operation, and ParaNet of being an unwitting disinformation pipeline. To avoid becoming such a pipeline, which I'm sure no one here wants, I simply got rid of the most likely suspect. As to Lear, I don't think any self-respecting Sysop would stand for being accused of borderline treason on his public board, especially from a man who proudly displays in his office enlarged telephoto- graphs of the installation at Groom Lake, the country's most secret tactical aircraft development area, obtained by himself after at- tempting to enter the area illegally. His unqualified support for Cooper, which seems to be based solely on Cooper's unqualified support for him, I found distasteful and somehow disturbing, in light of the fact that Cooper has contradicted Lear's information. And consider: John Lear entered Ufology in early 1987, when it be- came known to a few that Moore was going to release MJ-12. Lear is known to have been a CIA operative in the past. He wears his patriot- ism on his office walls, in the form of autographed pictures of him- self standing with G. Gordon Liddy. Again, if disinformation is taking place, I ask you, who is the more likely source? And is it working? Well, consider. What if Moore/Shandera/Friedman DO have the real goods? If so, isn't it a shame that so many intelligent people, people such as Don Ecker, watched UFO COVER-UP LIVE, and instead of asking if MSF were for real, began asking if Lear and Cooper were for real? This, despite the obvious contra- dictions and obfuscations listed below: "The documents you are looking for are for the most part labeled TOP SECRET MAJIC-RESTRICTED DATA" -- Bill Cooper, 22 August "EVERY DOCUMENT YOU SEE WHICH USES...`MAJIC' IS A FRAUD!" -- Bill Cooper, 15 October "The documents produced by Mr. Moore et al are photographic copies of genuine documents which were procured at great risk." -- Bill Cooper, 22 August "I CAN PROVE BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT TO ANYONE THAT MOST OF THE INFORMATION RELEASED BY WILLIAM MOORE, ET AL...ARE OBVIOUS AND DELIBERATE FORGERIES." -- Bill Cooper, 15 October "Hmmm...let me think on that one for a while." -- Bill Cooper, when I told him that the Aquarius Telex contained a compartmentalized routing code at the top that indicated to anyone trained in military communications/intelligence that the document was either fraudulent or to be ignored for some reason. Phone conversation, 11 October "The code is ZNY." -- Bill Cooper, phone conversation, 12 October. "I got it, Jim, I just remembered after I hung up with you, its NOT ZNY, that means something else, but its _________" (my deletion). -- Bill Cooper, phone conversation, 12 October "There is a code at the head of the AQUARIUS TELEX that tells me that the information contained within it is not to be acted upon nor in any way believed...________ on the telex net informs all stations that the message CANNOT BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY...The code is really a type of slang/graffiti that was used by a lot of enlisted men, and sometimes by officers. I had a lot of fun with a couple of Ufologists on that one. THEY STILL BELIEVE THAT THEY WERE TESTING ME." -- Bill Cooper, 15 October ----- Emphasis and deletions above are in the originals except where indicated. --- FD 1.99c * Origin: ParaNet Alpha-Delta The DATA Base (9:1012/3.0) Message #8540 - ASK_UFO Date : 05-Sep-91 13:19 From : Don Ecker To : All Subject : UFOs, Aliens, & Ex-Spooks! To All ParaNet readers; As promised, here is selected sections from the just published book "UFOs, Aliens, and "Ex"-intelligence Agents" by researcher and author Lars Hansson. Hansson gave me permission to upload sections from his book to the ParaNet readership. If you are interested in buying this 300 page interesting release of facts, figures, etc. you can write Hansson at; Paragon Research & Publications P.O. Box 981 Orlando, Florida 32802 The book is $25.00 U.S. with $3.00 for postage and handling. From the new book: ** UFOs, Aliens, and "Ex"-intelligence Agents: Who's Fooling Whom? `The inside story of John Lear, Bill Cooper and "The Greatest Cover-Up in Human History' ** Part One: LEAR AND LOATHING IN LAS VEGAS (with apologies to Dr. Hunter S. Thompson) Although I knew it would somehow be inevitable, I have been very reluctant to commit what follows to hard copy for a number of reasons. Throughout years of uncovering all manner of lies, treachery, deceit and betrayal by criminal elements within the government of our country and its client regimes around the world, I have subscribed to an unspoken code of "honor among thieves" -- that is, to respect and protect the identity of sources who have finally chosen to "come clean," often at great peril to themselves or their families. What has been held reluctantly in confidence emerges now only after the repeated blatant and sniggering violation of that code by John Lear himself. Despite Lear's cultivated image as a swashbuckling pilot and serious UFO researcher, he is, in my opinion, and others', an irresponsible, self-centered, loutish thrill-seeker who truly has no business in the latter field, and questionable competence in the former, given his record of hard-drinking and womanizing, at least during the time I associated with him from 1988-1990. Lest I be accused of self-righteousness in this regard, I have never pretended to sanctity, but have certainly interacted with Lear and the others mentioned herein with utmost integrity, while he has not hesitated to portray me publicly in a much different light. Because of the magnitude of the issues he has succeeded in forcing before the world's attention, I believe that it is long past the time when the public should know more of the truth about Lear which he has so desperately been attempting to conceal. I sincerely regret that I waited this long to bring it to their attention myself. For someone who has made such an effort to "wake up the masses" to the looming peril of takeover by "grey aliens from Zeta Reticuli," which he has claimed are ensconced in underground havens in the Nevada desert, the man has accomplished an even more masterful cover-up of the looming peril of martial law under the fascist masters he has willingly served for over two decades. The only reason I have reluctantly chosen not to publicize Lear's involvement in the activities I am about to disclose until now was that I had little doubt that his family would almost certainly suffer severe negative repercussions, particularly considering some of the principals involved. --- FD 1.99c * Origin: ParaNet Alpha-Delta The DATA Base (9:1012/3.0) Message #8541 - ASK_UFO Date : 05-Sep-91 13:20 From : Don Ecker To : All Subject : Part II "Spooks" Continued from last message. UFOs, Aliens and "Ex"-intelligence Agents Part II While a few concerned citizens are still asking "Where was George?" on October 19 and 20, 1980 when a shameful deal was being made in Paris with the Iranians to keep the American hostages until the precise moment Ronald Reagan was inaugurated, I am compelled by conscience to inform them more fully on those who handled the actual payoff. This payoff has been estimated by those in the know to ultimately total upwards of $82 billion in illegal weapons transfers over a period of nearly a decade. On a more personal level, I am also intent on making it clear to all concerned that I am aware of the threats Lear has been making -- including his obsession with having me killed, according to one mutual acquaintance. Since I made his threats public, he has claimed that I am a "Walter Mitty" who would like to flatter myself that someone cared enough to feel threatened by my disclosures. I believe, however, that Lear's fear has been genuine for some time that I will expose his complete fraudulence on the UFO issue, and his participation in such treasonous and criminal flight operations over a number of years. In this regard, it is almost a given that Lear might already have quietly made calls to his cronies in the "trade" to whine and snivel about the numerous secrets he bragged about to me. Have no doubt whatsoever, that any of these people would kill unhesitatingly to continue covering up many of the things Lear bantered about openly to me, though he was fully aware of my professional and political orientation from the very outset of our contact with each other. Continued Next. --- FD 1.99c * Origin: ParaNet Alpha-Delta The DATA Base (9:1012/3.0) Message #8542 - ASK_UFO Date : 05-Sep-91 13:21 From : Don Ecker To : All Subject : Part III "Spooks" Continued from last; ************************************************************** I have little doubt, however, that exposure of Lear's involvement in the operations I am about to describe will ultimately surface direct connections all the way into the highest levels of the U.S. Intelligence Community and beyond. *************************************************************** I believe it is no coincidence at all that Lear emerged from the shadows to start beating the UFO drum in early 1987 just in time to distract public attention from the Iran/Contra scandal which was beginning to unravel *************************************************************** It is also well worth noting that Robert Gates, the former Deputy Director of the CIA, whom Bush is again pushing for directorship after he was forced to withdraw in 1987 because of his unsavory connections with Casey and the diversion of Iranian funds to the contras, is the scion of Gates/Firestone, the company which bought out John's father's company, Lear-Siegler, at that time one of the largest defense contractors in the world. **************************************************************** Whatever thought I might have had about Lear's largesse quickly evaporated when I learned he had been cut out of his father's will, his father being Bill Lear, inventor of the Lear Jet and the 8- track stereo, the "Stormy Genius" who would perhaps have rivaled Howard Hughes himself, but for his own peculiar distractions. The reasons why Bill made and lost several fortunes, wives and girlfriends, and was later moved to cut John out of his will are the stuff of legend already, though I have my own suspicions. The bottom line was that, contrary to public opinion, John Lear was living from paycheck to paycheck at the time I met him in mid-1988 and was merely tooting the UFO horn for intellectual stimulation and to supplement his income slightly -- or so he claimed. ***************************************************************** Continued next message. --- FD 1.99c * Origin: ParaNet Alpha-Delta The DATA Base (9:1012/3.0) Message #8543 - ASK_UFO Date : 05-Sep-91 13:22 From : Don Ecker To : All Subject : Part IV "Spooks" And now onto Milton Cooper. ****************************************************************** Cooper, in particular, has had no qualms about calling friends of mine to threaten their lives over the phone in the middle of the night. They will verify that this took place, and you can actually obtain an audiotape of 10 such calls he made to two individuals who were attempting to help promote him -- I've included the ad in this report. According to mutual acquaintances, Lear has forged threatening notes and my signature on my letter to him, placed several messages on his answering machine offering my phone messages to him for sale, and most recently has discussed his obsession with luring me back to Las Vegas to kill me. ***************************************************************** THE TRUTH BETRAYED Cooper, meanwhile, has devoted nearly four pages of his recently released book to one lie after another about me concerning a rough, preliminary videotape I made three years ago concerning an aspect of the Kennedy assassination which he obtained from John Lear without my permission. He also claims that Lear fingered me as a CIA agent, and himself links me with best-selling authors Robert Groden and David Lifton as "agents of the Secret Government." ******************************************************************* The resulting 7th-generation video was intended to serve only as a preliminary research tool to spur potential investors to underwrite a thorough professional investigation into the theory that the driver of the presidential limousine, William Greer, actually turned around and fired the fatal shot at JFK with a handgun. As startling as this allegation might seem on first hearing, the two separate JFK researchers who first brought it to my attention -- Perry Adams and David Evans -- had each spent over 15 years in attempts to prove the charge. Adams and his research associate, Fred Newcomb, had actually written a 500-page manuscript entitled Murder From Within, documenting the theory in exhaustive detail. Evans had combed the entire 26-volumes of the Warren Commission and countless other sources to locate any potential references or supporting evidence, particularly photographic, to prove Greer's culpability. Although I no longer agree with them, I have nothing but respect for their selfless, dedicated and painstakingly thorough efforts to verify this crucial detail. Bill Cooper, on the other hand, is a Johnny-come-lately to the debate with the investigation skills of a P.T. Barnum and the scruples of a Vidkun Quisling. ***************************************************************** Without my knowledge, however, and completely contrary to our agreement that it would be kept private, Lear showed the tape numerous times publicly and gave a copy to Cooper, Nippon TV and God knows who else. I later learned from him and Don Ecker, a writer for UFO Magazine who attended the meeting, that when he had showed it (without permission, of course) to a meeting of former intelligence officers in Las Vegas in November 1988, four of them raised their hands when he asked if any of them would have killed John Kennedy if they had been so ordered! ***************************************************************** As I delve further into Hanssons book, I will excerpt further sections from the book for uploading. Don --- FD 1.99c * Origin: ParaNet Alpha-Delta The DATA Base (9:1012/3.0) EOF ------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Vedic writings and request for comments - Forwarded mail Message-ID: <1991Sep18.035718.25573@bilver.uucp> Date: 18 Sep 91 03:57:18 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 89 I was asked to forward this to the newsgroup as Keith does not have direct access here. Please email *all* your comments,feedback etc to him at the bottom of this message. Thanks. -----begin forwarded message ---------------------------------------- Dear UFO newsgroup (alt.alien.visitors) - I have been reading this newsgroup for about three months now and with the assistance of Don A. in Florida I can post this opinion of UFOS. I was in spiritual life for about as year (1 year) after college and studied the Vedas from India, which was written thousands of years by great sages like Sankaracharya, Ramanacharya and Lord Kapila (the father of Indian philosophy). One large segment of the Vedic writings details exactly how God goes about creating the physical universe and the range of planetary su systems that exist. Lord Kapila explains that there are three levels of planetary systems- heavenly (Indraloka, Bramaloka, Satyaloka, etc.) where "demigods" or great souls take birth and live for hundreds of thousands of "earth" years. A soul goes there after great yogic and or humanitarian sacrifice as a human. These beings are not gods, but sould souls like you and I who have lived pious lives, concerned about important matters and have sacrificed for them. The middle planetary system (eg earth) has over1,000 different human-type species or races. These beings are moderate in their taste for spiritual or metaphysical matters and also enjoy materialistic activities - that is the reason they take birth in this planetary range. The lifespan is about 100 years (by our standards) Finally, the hellish planetary system is populated by impious beings that are purely materialistic. Absolutely no interest in spiritual matters or metaphysics. These beings - according to Vedic tradition and writings - have been seen visiting the earth for thousands of years because they see "materiaistic" opportunity for themselves in the midddle planets. They don't necessarily want to destroy anythings, but rather exploit physical resources for their own sense enjoyment or sense gratification. I am posting this to get reaction from people who see a parallel bew between the Vedic writings of Lord Kapila from tens of thousands of years ago - and see the relation of current UFO phenomena. Apparently, this UFO phenomena, by spiritual standards, is no big deal because the enlightened sages acknowledge their presc3n presence - demigods and demons - to be a reality and not fiction. According to Vedic tradition, earth is a surprisingly attractive planet for beth demigods and demons because "heavenly" enjoyment and hellish suffering are minimal and the soul can better meditate on God or self-realization and become liberated from the cycle of samsara, or repeated birth and death. Apparently, when Krishna was on earth in Vrindaban, the heavenly planet entities (demigods) used to visit earth in "lotus" ships made of astral/etheral substance, simply to watch Krishna dance the "er rasa" DANCE WITH the Gopis, or cowheard damsals. That is why Krishna is called "the most attractive one" becuase of his dance. But, back to the UFO business, interplanetary travel is a reality that Basic Indian scripture (Vedic traditon) recognized bask back in the ancient days of mankind. In many ways, we need not require physical evidence to ascertain the presence of interplanetary visitors, but rather consult some ancient writings that earmark developments in their own civilizations as a result of visitors in their time. I was wondering if anyone else can site (cite) scriptural references to UFOs is other traditions than simply the Vedas?? Please email your commments to me in Bston, thanks./ Keith Johnson j kjohnson@media-lab.media.mit.edu --+-------------------------------------------------------------------+-- End of forwarded message -- Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!agate!linus!linus!maestro!gpivar From: gpivar@maestro.mitre.org (Greg Pivarnik) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Doug and Dave on hoaxes Message-ID: <1991Sep18.105104.25610@linus.mitre.org> Date: 18 Sep 91 10:51:04 GMT References: <1991Sep16.201907.25325@aixssc.ibm.co.uk> <1991Sep18.050005.2604@unixg.ubc.ca> Sender: news@linus.mitre.org (News Service) Reply-To: gpivar@mitre.org Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean, Va Lines: 18 Nntp-Posting-Host: maestro.mitre.org In article <1991Sep18.050005.2604@unixg.ubc.ca>, westfall@merlin.ucs.ubc.ca (Valerie Westfall) writes: |> Yes, I too find it hard to imagine Doug and Dave travelling furiously around |> the world creating circles in foreign crops. Uh, like maybe other people have |> been trying to make crop circles too. :-) Maybe this explains why crop |> circles in other countries, for example Canada, are quite rough and even |> primitive in comparison to recent formations in England. Find me a complex |> formation (ie. an insectogram) in a country where no circles have previously |> appeared and THEN I'll be impressed. Maybe you should check Doug and Dave's |> passports while you're at it...(:-))2 May-be Doug & Dave had their alien buddies fly them around to these locations in their spacecraft so they could help them with their hoax?...sorry that was uncalled for, I agree the real hoax is Doug &Dave! -- "Lizzy Borden was misunderstood" ACME Hatchet Co. -- Mitre disclaims dogma declaimated which decimates directives. -- Greg Path: ns-mx!uunet!ibism!ibism.UUCP!ghica From: ghica@ibism.UUCP (Renato Ghica) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts Message-ID: <12892@ibism.uucp> Date: 18 Sep 91 14:21:33 GMT References: <47188@cup.portal.com> <7Hae92w164w@cellar.UUCP> Sender: news@ibism.uucp Organization: Citibank IBISM Lines: 28 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15186 alt.paranormal:3093 alt.alien.visitors:2064 talk.religion.newage:6846 In article <7Hae92w164w@cellar.UUCP>, revpk@cellar.UUCP (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano) writes: |> |> Dan, I've read the transcripts you've posted, and I'm perfectly |> willing to believe that they come from a higher form of intelligence. |> However, I'm going to require proof. And I have a test that would be |> satisfactory proof. |> |> I'd like to ask the Pleidians if they can solve a small math problem |> for me. |> .. NP stuff here |> |> Solve it, and you've got a convert. (Maybe even a Nobel.) |> I'd be happy with any S&P 500 quote between tomorrow and the year 2000 (assuming that the math problem is not solved in the future). :-) -rg -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - No disclaimer necessary - No claim made. Renato Ghica Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!samsung!dali.cs.montana.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!dh4j+ From: dh4j+@andrew.cmu.edu (David O Hunt) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Mt. Shasta Pt.1 Message-ID: <0cpqxai00Uh_E25WYV@andrew.cmu.edu> Date: 18 Sep 91 15:23:18 GMT References: <47271@cup.portal.com> Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 12 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15188 alt.alien.visitors:2065 In-Reply-To: <47271@cup.portal.com> One wonders how much they get in fees/royalties for saying this...if they get ANYTHING then their credibility is shot. If there really is a civilization under Mt. Shasta, they must not be very good geologists...that whole area is active (geologically speaking) as Mt. St. Helens showed. Crater Lake is showing some signs of thermal venting (see this month's Discover), and Mt. Hood has had micro-tremors for a while (according to my not-infallible memory). Trust a truly "advanced" civilization to build itself underneath a potentially active volcano! Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!munnari.oz.au!uniwa!bilby.cs.uwa.oz.au!kultarr!richmo_c From: richmo_c@cs.uwa.oz.au (Craig Richmond) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Hey, Don Allen. Summary: Just a quick question Keywords: smirk Message-ID: Date: 18 Sep 91 19:31:39 GMT Sender: usenet@bilby.cs.uwa.oz.au Organization: Dept. Computer Science, University of Western Australia. Lines: 9 Nntp-Posting-Host: kultarr Let me take a stab in the dark here. Your site doesn't charge you per kilobyte posted does it :-) But aside from that, some of the things are interesting and I think its great you go to the time to do it. Craig Richmond richmo_c@kultarr.cs.uwa.oz.au Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!mixcom!jjwwjj From: jjwwjj@mixcom.COM (Robotic Systems) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: MASS INTELLIGENCE Message-ID: <1653@mixcom.COM> Date: 18 Sep 91 18:27:57 GMT Organization: Milwaukee Information eXchange (Public access Usenet, Email) Lines: 29 Just two ideas about crop circles: 1) I read somewhere that the atmosphere of Jupiter is considered one of the most likely places we might find life in our solar system. This got me thinking: maybe our atmosphere is not only alive (with bacteria, etc...) but also intelligent and organized! Maybe it is trying to communicate with us (ie. "Stop Polluting!"). Is Jupiter's (and Saturn & Uranus') Red Spot another type of crop circle? 2) Also along the lines of mass, organized intelligence, is it possible the whole human race is sub-conciensously trying to communicate as a whole? I know this sounds far out, but I think something like this was part of the "Ghost Busters" movie... when everyone in NYC had to think good thoughts to kill the evil spirits (or something like that). Maybe collectively we are the "alien" intelligence causing the crop circles! As crazy as these ideas sound, I am interested in any replys. Please post for all to read. Finally, does anyone know anymore about the giant objects found under- ground in Ogden, Utah? -- =============================================================================== Clint Laskowski Post Office Box 552, Cudahy, Wisconsin 53110-0552 ROBOTIC SYSTEMS INTERNET: robots@mixcom.com VOICE: (414) 769-9332 =============================================================================== Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!bruce!trlluna!titan!medici!jbm From: jbm@medici.trl.oz.au (Jacques Guy) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: MASS INTELLIGENCE Message-ID: <1991Sep19.004911.17271@trl.oz.au> Date: 19 Sep 91 00:49:11 GMT References: <1653@mixcom.COM> Sender: news@trl.oz.au (USENET News System) Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne, Australia Lines: 8 No, no, no, no! You've got it inside out! It's wheat that, after millions of years of natural selection and centuries of man-induced selection, has become intelligent and is trying to communicate with us. *** MAKING BREAD IS MURDER *** Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: Implant story Off MUFONET "Contact" echo Message-ID: <1991Sep19.010300.2146@bilver.uucp> Date: 19 Sep 91 01:03:00 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 54 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2069 alt.conspiracy:7204 sci.skeptic:15221 I found this while reading the MUFONET "Contact" BBS UFO echo -------------------------------------------------------------- Message #6253 - CONTACT Date : 15-Sep-91 12:05 From : Steve Jones To : Sandy Barbre Subject : Thanks for the invitation Replies : -> #6255 Sandy- Thanks for the invitation to this echo. I am very pleased to gain access. As most of you know who have read my posts on the National UFO echo, I am a serious researcher of the phenomena. I am open-minded, over educated (grin)- I have degrees in Psychology and Cultural Anthropology, and I am a consumate reader on subjects related to the UFO phenomena. As I have mentioned on the National echo, I have personally viewed the x-rays of an implant person, who were sent up here to Sacramento to another physician for a second opinion. Fortunately, the son of the physician happens to be a friend who knew of my interest in the subject (we had just been talking about it the week before) and he gave me the x-ray to look at. I took it over to a life-long friend who is a OB/Gynocologist and he was really puzzled. The position of the implant is strange (it is in the lower back area, below the kidney) and corresponds to the one that was mentioned on the recent Joan Rivers show. Again, thanks. I have to go for now, but I will definitely be back. I have spoken to Dan Brown about the x-rays and will be showing it to him next week. ---Steve Jones --- QuickBBS 2.64/O (R) * Origin: The heart sings the silent song of being: (1:203/163) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Some background on the "Contact" echo...this is a specific area that MUFON provides for the sharing on Contact/Abduction experiences where people are encouraged to freely talk about their encounters _without_ the fear of ridicule,flaming and other all-too-human "traits". In fact, the echo policy is that *anyone* who flames another person's experience or otherwise ridicules the experiences of others is _gone_...poof! ParaNet has pretty much a similar area called "Abduct" and I suspect the same rules above also apply. Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: Implant story#1 - Off MUFONET "Contact" echo Message-ID: <1991Sep19.005014.2060@bilver.uucp> Date: 19 Sep 91 00:50:14 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 58 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2070 alt.conspiracy:7205 sci.skeptic:15222 I found this while reading the MUFONET "Contact" BBS UFO echo ------------------------------------------------------------- Message #7610 - CONTACT Date : 17-Sep-91 0:30 From : Bob Ross To : Sandy Barbre Subject : Re: Abductions Replies : #6282 <--> #7611 Sandy, Always good to hear from you! When I use the word abduction, I mean that they physically take me away. I am not sure if any experiments are being done on me. The only experiments that I know of to date is on my implants. My first implant was put up through my right nostril and I woke up for the next couple of days with a bloody nose. A couple of months ago I was implanted again but this time it was put through my left ear. I have no idea if the other implant was removed or not. I have not had a bloody nose since that abduction. For some reason I still can not remember my abductions except for being taken and being put back. Usually about 3 to 7 days after the abduction I start seeing images and remember some things. I can't remember of any experiments except for the implants. I do remember them takeing me to some planet (I think). It was a very dry and brown place with a very dark purple sky. I remember being taken by one or two "greys" to a dark grey or black pyramid shape structure. There were two greys guarding this structure. A grey approached the two that were takeing me and told them that I was not ready. I was able to talk and somehow convince them that I was ready to enter the structure. I think that the grey meant that I was not ready to enter the structure. It seemed to be of some significant importance to them. I remember going in room after room. I was quite startled when I saw a lot of human parts. I really started to get afraid. Finally I ended up into some far off room with a few greys, a human, and a blond hair-blue eyed female. She looked human but I really don't think that she was. She pulled out a black box from a shelf. I have no idea what this black box was but I have never been so afraid of something in my life. The next thing I know is that I am back in my bed sweating and afraid. I know that this sounds like a movie of some sort but It was a real experience. Can you offer any help and do you know of anyone with a similiar experience? Thank's for everything. Confused, Bob Ross --- QuickBBS 2.75 Ovr (Gamma-2) * Origin: Pegasus of Orion (719)630-0667 Ltd HRS:18:00-6:30 (MDT) (1:128/94) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: Info: Keith Basterfield report on recent UFO seminar in Sydney,Aus. Message-ID: <1991Sep19.010852.2217@bilver.uucp> Date: 19 Sep 91 01:08:52 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 122 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2071 alt.conspiracy:7206 sci.skeptic:15223 The following came off of the ParaNet UFO Network recently: ----------------------------------------------------------------- Message #4361 - INFO.PARANET Date : 11-Sep-91 16:19 From : Vladimir Godic To : ALL Subject : UFO Seminar The following is a report by Keith Basterfield after attending a recent UFO seminar in Sydney, New South Wales. The first Australian International UFO seminar was held on the 7-8 Sept 1991, in Sydney, New South Wales. The meeting was attended by about 300-350 people. Interestingly it was sponsored by a Japanese travel company, Imagine-A-Nation. It was an open to the public seminar. There were a diverse range of people attending ranging from the serious to the weird. It should be noted that it wasn't a UFO researchers' conference, but a public seminar. The speakers from overseas were: 1 - Jerry Clark, CUFOS, Chicago. 2 - Jenny Randles U.K. 3 - Brian O'Leary, ex astronaut from the US. Australian speakers were:- 1 - Bill Chalker. 2 - Keith Basterfield. 3 - Brian Crowley. 4 - Antony Drew. On Friday Sept 6, a media conference was held and attended by all speakers. During the subsequent 2 hours of interviewing the media concentrated on Jerry ideas of cover-up; Jenny's ideas on crop circles and Keith's x-ray re abductions. Other attendees received less attention. The resultant publicity from the media conference has been very wide spread. Topics covered were: Jenny Randles covered U.K. circles. She illustrated the progression of the phenomenon from simple to complex. Circles have been traced back for some 500 years. Jenny explored Meaden's vortices, saying that the theory didn't cover the entire phenomena, but feels it covers a percentage of simple circles. She explored the recent Japanese recreation of plasma phenomena in a modified microwave oven. Jenny showed a slide of the English policeman's green alien and discussed this sighting, saying that it holds up; they haven't been able to crack that case as anything other than genuine so far. Jenny also advised that with UK abduction cases BUFORA has stopped doing hypnotic regressions and feel that they should only be done by qualified professionals. Jerry Clark talked over the two days on the U.S.A. cover up legend, from Roswell in 1947 through to the present. Jerry believes that the 80s legends are disinformation from U.S. Air Force intelligence. He discussed the reasons for this- a) the USAF could have the crashed Roswell UFO, b) they could be just covering up secret aircraft research beyond stealth. At the present there are reliable US based reports of extraordinary aircraft flying in a manner characteristic of UFOs re speed, and manoeuvrability. Hudson Bay and Belgium reports talk of similar craft. Jerry outlined Bill Cooper's story as an example of paranoia going through U.S. UFOlogy. Because of audience response, it is very obvious that the Bill Cooper legend has taken off amongst some Australian UFOlogists. Brian O'Leary gave 2 talks mainly on the new age movement and his personal conversion through a psychic experience. On Sunday he demonstrated spoon bending. Basically explained his own experience from being an astronaut, through being a physicist, through now to tour guide operator to new age sites. A personal story of conversion. Brian Crowley was examining evidence for ET life in our solar system. He talked about the face on Mars and moon mysteries, illustrated with slides, some of which were blurred. There was almost no new information in the talk, all at least 5 years old. Antony Drew gave an illustrated talk covering Bruce Cathy style grid systems over Australia. Again, no new information in talk. Bill Chalker gave an illustrated talk covering the physical trace experience within Australia and overseas. Bill said these cases are amenable to scientific examination. He covered the Rosedale and early physical trace cases like Tully, slime mould on lawns, giving a broad cross section of illustrations. He stated that science has not taken a serious look at the phenomena across the board so far. Keith Basterfield reviewed the last 30 years of good UFO cases in Australia e.g. Rev Browning, Tasmania, 1960; Valentich; Rosedale; and Mundrabilla. Keith explored the Australian abduction experience and illustrated this with two South Australian cases, one of which involves possible evidence of an alien implant. See Keith's recent IUR article on this case. The weekend was an excellent opportunity for the exchange of ideas between serious Australian researchers and Jerry and Jenny and cemented relationship between UFORA and the two of them. UFORA was promoted by literature about the organisation and its publications. Steven Thorne, the publishers representative for UFORA's digitized book UFO RESEARCH IN AUSTRALIA AND N.Z. was present throughout the weekend. Steven told Keith that the book on disc attracted a large amount of attention. The publishers are considering making the book on disc available in a MacIntosh format. --- FD 1.99c * Origin: UFO Research Australia, Administrator, Adelaide - Aust. (9:1040/7) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: Info: MUFONET UFO Newswire - Argentina,ET's and NASA Message-ID: <1991Sep19.011254.2288@bilver.uucp> Date: 19 Sep 91 01:12:54 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 85 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2072 alt.conspiracy:7207 sci.skeptic:15224 The following is off of MUFONET: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #7683 - MUFONET Date : 17-Sep-91 21:54 From : JOHN KOMAR To : All Subject : UFO News-Wire MUFONET-BBS NETWORK - MUTUAL UFO NETWORK ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ UFO NEWS - WIRE ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ =START= XMT: 18:06 Tue Sep 17 EXP: 18:00 Wed Sep 18 EXTRA-TERRESTRIALS BOOST TOURISM IN ARGENTINA AND INTERESTS NASA BUENOS AIRES (SEPT. 17) EFE - Residents of the Argentine town of Victoria, accompanied by hundreds of tourists and officials from the U.S. National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA), are spending nights watching the skies in hopes of spotting unidentified flying objects. A television journalist said his camera crew had managed to film the mysterious phenomenon last July. "At first I thought it was a car or a tractor, but as we were in the middle of a field I have no doubt that it was a UFO," said Ramon Pereyra of Victoria's Channel 4 television network. Some 30,000 residents of the town, 320 km north of Buenos Aires, have reported seeing strange lights and objects in the sky. Two weeks ago, a family in the town said it saw nine small low-flying spaceships behind a larger vessel close to the nearby Del Pescado lake. The family said two human-looking shapes floated in the air over the lake before returning to the spaceships which then disappeared. Following the reports, NASA experts moved into an abbey near the town to observe the alleged extra-terrestrial activities. Hundreds of residents and tourists gather every weekend at night at a bathing spot on the Parana river in the town to try to spot the UFOs. And after keeping quiet for six years, local resident Gladys Rignoni confessed that she had seen two oval-shaped multi- colored spaceships with three legs hovering over her farm on the outskirts of Victoria. But local police chief Carlos Gongora raised his voice in skepticism. "Those who have a nose for business and sell souvenirs of Victoria are filling their pockets," he said. =END= Regards, John --- * Origin: Mutual UFO Network - MUFONET-BBS Network 901-785-4943 (1:123/26) --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!SuperDave From: SuperDave@cup.portal.com (David A Coleman) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: <47354@cup.portal.com> Date: 19 Sep 91 06:22:14 GMT References: <1991Sep05.215012.3207@pmafire.inel.gov> Organization: The Portal System (TM) Lines: 9 Hey, There have been many complaints about the lack of evidence in the postings, but I don't see any evidence mentioned. Does anybody know of any untainted evidence? I am very interested in looking at _real_ evidence, and had hoped to find some here... Dave superdave@cup.portal.com Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!sgraziano From: sgraziano@cup.portal.com (Steve - Graziano) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts Message-ID: <47361@cup.portal.com> Date: 19 Sep 91 07:14:32 GMT References: <46869@cup.portal.com> <47188@cup.portal.com> <1669@ra.MsState.Edu> Distribution: usa Organization: The Portal System (TM) Lines: 14 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15226 alt.paranormal:3108 alt.alien.visitors:2074 talk.religion.newage:6852 I thought the transcripts were a good read. I stand on middle ground on whether I believe it or not. I am curious though about a couple things: 1. How do Alien beings from another world (another time,place) know of english words like "Shenanigans", "busters", and other slang terms when it usually takes several years for a foreign person to just 'grasp' the language much less learn the 'slang' terms for it? (I don't think just using Barbara's mind to do 'automatic' translations could do it, but I am open to any explanations. 2. On a more curious level, the transcripts talk about dracos, lizzies, etc. Is there anything that elaborates on this? (Just a personal curiousity thing) Steven Graziano, sgraziano@cup.portal.com Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley From: stanley@verga.enet.dec.com Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: MASS INTELLIGENCE Message-ID: <1991Sep19.144956.3101@engage.pko.dec.com> Date: 19 Sep 91 14:50:13 GMT Sender: newsdaemon@engage.pko.dec.com (USENET News Daemon) Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 27 In article <1653@mixcom.COM>, jjwwjj@mixcom.COM (Robotic Systems) writes... >Just two ideas about crop circles: > > : maybe our atmosphere is not only alive (with bacteria, etc...) > but also intelligent and organized! Maybe it is trying to communicate > with us > > Also along the lines of mass, organized intelligence, is it possible > the whole human race is sub-conciensously trying to communicate as a > whole? I believe you are correct. I've thought those very concepts for a long time. > >Finally, does anyone know anymore about the giant objects found under- >ground in Ogden, Utah? No.. I'd like to know more though. I seriously doubt that we are alone in all this. --- Mary Stanley (INTERNET,UUCP) stanley@verga.enet.dec.com (UUCP) ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley (INTERNET) stanley%verga.enet@decwrl.dec.com --- Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!engage.pko.dec.com!verga.enet.dec.com!stanley From: stanley@verga.enet.dec.com Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: MASS INTELLIGENCE Message-ID: <1991Sep19.145047.3174@engage.pko.dec.com> Date: 19 Sep 91 14:50:31 GMT Sender: newsdaemon@engage.pko.dec.com (USENET News Daemon) Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 20 In article <1991Sep19.004911.17271@trl.oz.au>, jbm@medici.trl.oz.au (Jacques Guy) writes... > > > >No, no, no, no! You've got it inside out! It's wheat that, after millions >of years of natural selection and centuries of man-induced selection, has >become intelligent and is trying to communicate with us. > >*** MAKING BREAD IS MURDER *** :-) ... good one :-) --- Mary Stanley (INTERNET,UUCP) stanley@verga.enet.dec.com (UUCP) ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley (INTERNET) stanley%verga.enet@decwrl.dec.com --- Path: ns-mx!uunet!rayssd!plw From: plw@sgfb.ssd.ray.com (Paul L. White) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Bentwater,UK on Unsolved Mysteries Message-ID: <468@sgfb.ssd.ray.com> Date: 19 Sep 91 13:50:20 GMT Sender: news@rayssd.ssd.ray.com Organization: Raytheon Company, Portsmouth RI Lines: 18 Watched Unsolved Mysteries last night (18 Sept) about the Air Force encounter with alleged UFO's. I was interested how the program would compare with the literature on the 1980 incident. One glaring departure in the tv program from the literature was the fact that several witnesses (the three airmen) reported that the UFO that landed, leaving the three 1.5"deep by 7" diameter circular depressions, was triangular in shape. The UFO shown on the program was circular. . .artistic license? There were other discrepancies that would either indicate poor research or a change in story after 11 years. ======================================================================= Paul plw@rayssdb My employer and I rarely share opinions ======================================================================= Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!mrccrc!sgamble From: sgamble@crc.ac.uk (Steve Gamble x3293) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Wheat Circles and Confessors Message-ID: <2254@carbon.crc.ac.uk> Date: 19 Sep 91 10:28:19 GMT References: <91259.062000ROWHC@CUNYVM.BITNET> Organization: MRC Human Genome Mapping Project Resource Centre, Harrow, U.K. Lines: 32 In article , cee1@ra.MsState.Edu (The Chuckmeister) writes: > [stuff deleted] > Hmmm circles in a park..... hmmm is it just grass or something? > > I remember a previous post.. why is all these things happening in > JUST wheat fields?? Why not corn, soybean, milo, beans, etc?? > > > More unmarked black helicopters around the other night. Sheeez. > > The CHCKMEISTER > Circles do not only appear in wheat. Working from memory, circles have been found in grass (Evenlode, Gloucestershire 1960; ?Tywell c1978), in Oil Seed Rape (known in the U.S., I believe, as swagnam grass or something similar) and a number of other crops. Paranet recently carried an extensive report by James Black on a circle from Iowa. I think this was in Corn (or Maize in the U.K.) [please confirm Mike or James] The (famous) Hertfordshire Mowing Devil report of 17-something is suspected of being a circle in grass. Steve. -- (Disclaimer: These are not my employer's opinions, they may not even be mine!) Steve Gamble, Computing Services, Clinical Research Centre, Watford Road, Harrow, Middlesex, HA1 3UJ, UK. Phone: 081 869 3293 JANET: s.gamble@uk.ac.crc INTERNET: s.gamble@crc.ac.uk Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!uknet!stl!stc!fsb From: fsb@tcom.stc.co.uk (Frank Stuart Brown) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: MASS INTELLIGENCE Message-ID: <1991Sep19.113146.13497@tcom.stc.co.uk> Date: 19 Sep 91 11:31:46 GMT References: <1653@mixcom.COM> Sender: news@tcom.stc.co.uk (System Administration) Reply-To: fsb@tcom.stc.co.uk (Frank Stuart Brown) Organization: STC Telecomms, New Southgate, London, N11 1HB Lines: 16 In article <1653@mixcom.COM> jjwwjj@mixcom.COM (Robotic Systems) writes: > >2) Also along the lines of mass, organized intelligence, is it possible > the whole human race is sub-conciensously trying to communicate as a > whole? I know this sounds far out, but I think something like this Try reading all the FOUNDATION books by ASIMOV then you will understand GAIA, which is what you are intimating. Yes I believe it exists but everyone will have to meditate as one.... Fat chance of that ever happening!! -- Frank Stuart-Brown, Dept 31700, Customer Services, || !mcsun!ukc!stc!fsb fsb%antelope.tcom.stc.co.uk@cs.ucl.ac.uk Tel +44 81 945 2608 || +44 924 870838 Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!tulane!uflorida!fnord From: fnord (Yes that's right) Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.slack,alt.cyberpunk Subject: MEBON Message-ID: <31249@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> Date: 19 Sep 91 16:45:05 GMT Sender: news@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU Reply-To: fnord! Organization: Radio Crash Test Dummies Lines: 9 Xref: ns-mx alt.conspiracy:7224 sci.skeptic:15236 alt.alien.visitors:2080 alt.slack:1268 alt.cyberpunk:5749 News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4 Since I don't know who would be most qualified to discuss this, so it is being crossposted in various places. (If you know nothing about this, please disregard it) Anyway, I'm wondering if anyone has an address or phone number or mail addr or any kind of information about MEBON, the Mutual Easter Bunny Observation Network (i think). Any information would be appreciated. Danke fnord Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!malgudi!caen!uwm.edu!src.honeywell.com!dienbienphu!gcary From: gcary@SRC.Honeywell.COM (Greg Cary) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Bentwater,UK on Unsolved Mysteries Message-ID: <1991Sep19.181433.12751@src.honeywell.com> Date: 19 Sep 91 18:14:33 GMT References: <468@sgfb.ssd.ray.com> Sender: news@src.honeywell.com (News interface) Organization: Honeywell Systems & Research Center Lines: 22 Nntp-Posting-Host: dienbienphu.src.honeywell.com Here are some comments I have about the Bentwater case on Unsolved Mysteries last night: What ever happened to the camera man? The Colonel asked for a camera man but I guess he never showed up. I wish they had done polygraph tests to add credibility. The chance that 4 people could all pass a polygraph test is pretty slim. They never did soil samples and never really said anything in detail about the radiation levels. As expected, the case was sensationalized in its presentation. In particular, I enjoyed the part where the UFO shines its light down and it makes noise. (I don't remember them saying anything about it making noise). All in all though, the case sounds pretty convincing. Greg -------------------------------------------------------- Greg Cary MN65-2500 gcary@src.honeywell.com Honeywell, Inc. office: (612)782-7683 Systems & Research Center FAX: (612)782-7438 3660 Technology Drive Minneapolis, MN 55418 Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!psuvax1!psuvm!sml108 From: SML108@psuvm.psu.edu (Scott the Great) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Bentwater,UK on Unsolved Mysteries Message-ID: <91262.133541SML108@psuvm.psu.edu> Date: 19 Sep 91 17:35:40 GMT References: <468@sgfb.ssd.ray.com> Organization: Penn State University Lines: 33 In article <468@sgfb.ssd.ray.com>, plw@sgfb.ssd.ray.com (Paul L. White) says: > >Watched Unsolved Mysteries last night (18 Sept) about the Air Force >encounter with alleged UFO's. I was interested how the program would >compare with the literature on the 1980 incident. > >One glaring departure in the tv program from the literature was the >fact that several witnesses (the three airmen) reported that the >UFO that landed, leaving the three 1.5"deep by 7" diameter circular >depressions, was triangular in shape. The UFO shown on the program was >circular. . .artistic license? > >There were other discrepancies that would either indicate poor research >or a change in story after 11 years. Many discrepancies... One of the biggest was something I saw presented on HBO many years ago. Colonel Halt's tape was played and the light from the nearby lighthouse was displayed at the same time. It was clear that his observations of lights in the sky basically corresponded EXACTLY with the period of the lighthouse. Weren't they also claiming that they were taken on board to repair the ship previously? Anyone out there remember the full body of evidence against this case. The one debunker they had on there was either paraphrased improperly (most likely) or just had no personality. >======================================================================= >Paul >plw@rayssdb My employer and I rarely > share opinions >======================================================================= Scott Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!pyrnj!pyramid!infmx!bruceb From: bruceb@informix.com (Bruce Barr) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts Message-ID: <1991Sep19.212154.18647@informix.com> Date: 19 Sep 91 21:21:54 GMT References: <47188@cup.portal.com> <7Hae92w164w@cellar.UUCP> Sender: news@informix.com (Usenet News) Organization: Informix Software, Inc. Lines: 29 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15251 alt.paranormal:3118 alt.alien.visitors:2083 talk.religion.newage:6863 Dan, I am interested in the transcripts. if you have problems with a return to this message (it should be forwarded to my regular mail box.) try the address included below. Sorry to waste bandwidth everyone, e-mail just bounces. Thanks, BB -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Questions? You can reach me at: | | Bruce Barr (913) 599-8709 voice | | International Product Planning (913) 599-7350 fax | | Informix Software, Lenexa Ks. or e-mail me at: | | | | Applelink:D0357 bruceb@informix.com | | Compuserve:70075,1262 ...{uunet || pyramid}!informix!bruceb | | | | It's a recession when your neighbor Statistics are like a bikini. | | loses his job; What they reveal is suggestive, | | It's a depression when you lose but what they conceal is vital. | | yours. Aaron Levenstein | | Harry S. Truman, 1958 | | I can't be a racist. I'm black - Rev. Al Sharpton | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!cherokee!teton!joe From: joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Doug and Dave on hoaxes Message-ID: <1991Sep19.225519.19616@cherokee.uswest.com> Date: 19 Sep 91 22:55:19 GMT References: <1991Sep16.201907.25325@aixssc.ibm.co.uk> <1991Sep18.050005.2604@unixg.ubc.ca> Sender: news@cherokee.uswest.com (Telegraph Row) Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies Lines: 24 Nntp-Posting-Host: teton.uswest.com In article <1991Sep18.050005.2604@unixg.ubc.ca> westfall@merlin.ucs.ubc.ca (Valerie Westfall) writes: >Yes, I too find it hard to imagine Doug and Dave travelling furiously around >the world creating circles in foreign crops. Uh, like maybe other people have >been trying to make crop circles too. :-) Maybe this explains why crop >circles in other countries, for example Canada, are quite rough and even >primitive in comparison to recent formations in England. Find me a complex >formation (ie. an insectogram) in a country where no circles have previously >appeared and THEN I'll be impressed. Maybe you should check Doug and Dave's >passports while you're at it...(:-))2 I am new to this group but I have 2 questions. 1) If the aliens don't want to be seen (i.e. I saw a show where the scientist's staked out a field for weeks, and found crop circles in the one behind them one day), why do they make impressions in the field. Why would they leave physical evidence of a disturbance? 2) Why do they always go to a wheat/corn field, why not a potatoe field or a meadow? Assuming they have a purpose to land in the wheat/corn field, couldn't they achieve what studies they wanted without so many landings (i.e. if they are studying wheat/corn)? Joe Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!bagate!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Kansas disappearances Message-ID: Date: 20 Sep 91 03:30:11 GMT Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 14 Can anyone fill me in on the disappearance of two women and two daughters of one of them in Russel County, Kansas? The only thing I've heard so far (just minutes ago on NBC) is that they were "studying" UFOs and rumors are rampant that the aliens have snatched them. The authorities aren't happy about all the fuss and say that they've recently gotten some solid leads but it's a bizarre case. My gut feeling is that when the truth is known it'll probably be a Messianic cult like the so-called "Gulf Breeze Six", but I'd be a lot more comfortable with better information. -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@amix.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen From: Don_-_Showen@cup.portal.com Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: <47424@cup.portal.com> Date: 20 Sep 91 07:53:51 GMT References: <1991Sep05.215012.3207@pmafire.inel.gov> Organization: The Portal System (TM) Lines: 80 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15262 alt.alien.visitors:2086 Steve Reiser comments >In the mid-1960s I had strong interest which I dropped because not one >shred of convincing evidence came forth to indicate that unidentified >flying objects were in fact the space craft of extraterrestrial beings. >To my knowledge this is still the current state of affairs on the subject. Okay, I have pulled myself down off the roof, I have counted to 20 a hundred times. I promise I am going to do my absolute best to stay calm. Have you studied at all the case of Billy Meier? How many of the over 500 photos have you seen? I want to quote Wendelle Stevens comments on the inside cover of the seventh book published on the most incredible and documented UFO case in history. MESSAGE FROM THE PLEIADES BOOK 2 The Contact Notes of Eduard Billy Meier For over a decade the most thorough investigation in the history of the UFO phenomenon has been centered around a Swiss farmer, his claims of extraterrestrial contacts and the physical documentation that supports his statements. Extensive research has been unable to detect any form of trickery or manipulation of the hard evidence supplied by the extraterrestrial visitors Proving or disproving is no longer an issue; it is now time to move into a previously untouched arena . . . What can be learned from these amazing experiences? Certainly the possibility of an alien culture visiting Earth would allow for differing, sometimes opposing, perspectives of values and ideals we incorporated into our social structure. This is not indicative that either point of view is true or false but, instead, presents information which helps us understand the beliefs, culture and history of a distant neighbor. After all, the strength of one's knowledge depends on the desire to discover. end quote Now for a list of documents on the Meier case Books U.F.O. ... Contact from the Pleiades Vol. 1 (now in its third printing) U.F.O. ... Contact from the Pleiades Priliminary Investigation Report U.F.O. ... Contact from the Pleiades Vol. 2 (out of print) Message From the Pleiades Vol 1 U.F.O. ... Contact from the Pleiades Supplementary Investigation Report Message From the Pleiades Vol 2 Light Years by Gary Kinder Videos Contact A docudrama on the case Beamship Trilogy including 3 videos The Investigation The Movie Footage The Metal The Videos are available from Genesis III Publishing P.O. Drawer JJ Munds Park, Az. 86017 Some of the books are available from UFO Photo Archives P.O. Box 17206 Tucson, Az. 86017 My name is mentioned in the acknowledgements at the end of the video Contact for the work I did with the investigators in 1979 and 1980. I am amazed that people are using the notion that it is to good to by true as a criteria for rejecting the case or not looking at the evidence. This contact is one of the most monumental events to happen on this planet, simply because it is so well documentated and investigated. I have heard the story of the witch doctor having to teach the mexican indians to SEE the spanish ships coming. Since the indians did not believe in the ships they could not see them. Okay, I will be a witch doctor and say that maybe since you don t believe that there can be any intelligence besides earth humans, that you may be keeping yourself from experiencing the ample evidence. What sacred beliefs is seeing the pictures going to upset? Don Showen Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Hey, Don Allen. Keywords: smirk Message-ID: <1991Sep20.061304.3689@bilver.uucp> Date: 20 Sep 91 06:13:04 GMT References: Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 34 In article richmo_c@cs.uwa.oz.au (Craig Richmond) writes: >Let me take a stab in the dark here. > >Your site doesn't charge you per kilobyte posted does it :-) > >But aside from that, some of the things are interesting and I think its >great you go to the time to do it. > >Craig Richmond >richmo_c@kultarr.cs.uwa.oz.au Thanks! It's a private system and I do try and space out the postings so I don't incur the wrath of the Sysadmin :-) I've compiled an extensive library over the last few years and just feel it needs to be shared and discussed with others. Maybe it will encourage some of you to look a bit deeper and do some investigation on your own. Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!watserv1!watmath!descartes!jsinclai From: jsinclai@descartes.waterloo.edu (Jack Sinclair) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Bentwater,UK on Unsolved Mysteries Message-ID: <1991Sep20.151839.2829@descartes.waterloo.edu> Date: 20 Sep 91 15:18:39 GMT References: <468@sgfb.ssd.ray.com> <91262.133541SML108@psuvm.psu.edu> Organization: University of Waterloo Lines: 26 In article <91262.133541SML108@psuvm.psu.edu> Scott the Great writes: >Many discrepancies... One of the biggest was something I saw presented on >HBO many years ago. Colonel Halt's tape was played and the light from the >nearby lighthouse was displayed at the same time. It was clear that his >observations of lights in the sky basically corresponded EXACTLY with the >period of the lighthouse. Weren't they also claiming that they were What is 'EXACTLY' ? >taken on board to repair the ship previously? Anyone out there remember >the full body of evidence against this case. The one debunker they had >on there was either paraphrased improperly (most likely) or just had >no personality. > > >Scott The debunker on the show shifted his eyes so fast, and so often, I kept wondering what he was trying to hide from us. All his body language said was 'do not believe me'. As for the lighthouse explanation: how could these people, having worked at this place countless times before, suddenly see a lighthouse beam as an alien device, and yet never again (except for the two other episodes)? Jack. Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!rutgers!cbmvax!amix!anuurn!ffoire From: ffoire@anuurn.UUCP (Jeff Orrok) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Kansas disappearances Message-ID: <387@anuurn.UUCP> Date: 20 Sep 91 16:34:53 GMT References: Organization: the Hani homeworld. (Wilmette, IL) Lines: 10 jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) writes: > it'll probably be a Messianic cult like the so-called "Gulf Breeze Six", Gulf Breeze Six? Is this related to the Gulf Breeze sightings? I haven't heard of this before. -- "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" -- marx "From each according to his naivete, to each according to his greed" -- me --ffoire@anuurn.home.nwu.edu --ffoire@anuurn.chi.il.us Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!sei.cmu.edu!fs7.ece.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!dh4j+ From: dh4j+@andrew.cmu.edu (David O Hunt) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: Date: 20 Sep 91 18:20:14 GMT References: <1991Sep05.215012.3207@pmafire.inel.gov> <47424@cup.portal.com> Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 36 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15276 alt.alien.visitors:2090 In-Reply-To: <47424@cup.portal.com> >I have heard the story of the witch doctor having to teach the mexican indians >to SEE the spanish ships coming. Since the indians did not believe in the >ships they could not see them. Okay, I will be a witch doctor and say that >maybe since you don t believe that there can be any intelligence besides earth >humans, that you may be keeping yourself from experiencing the ample evidence. >What sacred beliefs is seeing the pictures going to upset? I would say, and believe most would agree with me, that alien contact would be a marvelous thing. Imagine the counterpoints, the opinions, the culture, and the philosophy to be gained, not to mention additional technology. Why WOULD there be an interest in hiding these things????? As has been raised before, if aliens really are here, why not contact us in a way to really make us sit up and notice? It's kind-of like proof of a divine being...if one exists and wants to be knowm, _how hard could it be to do so?_ A large shaceship landing at Dulles Airport would do nicely. Perhaps leaflets distributed on a material that we humans couldn't make as yet. LOTS of ways to _unambiguously and clearly_ say "We are here." What's with this skulking about? Why NOT contact national leaders? Why NOT make a public appearance? Are they afraid of us? Surely aliens who can cross the gulf between stars have means of defending themselves against our weapons. What is to be gained by hiding if you want to make contact? And if they don't want to make contact, they shouldn't be seen in the first place. Imagine if we wanted to spy on a tribe of primitives in a jungle. With our technological advantages they'd have no WAY of knowing we were watching if we did it right. So where's the PROOF? Not photos, not anecdotes. Where is a room-temperature superconductor? Where is a material whose strength far exceeds anything we have today? Well? If they want to be known, WHERE IS THEIR PROOF THAT THEY ARE HERE????? David Hunt Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!psuvax1!psuvm!sml108 From: SML108@psuvm.psu.edu (Scott the Great) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: <91263.163931SML108@psuvm.psu.edu> Date: 20 Sep 91 20:39:31 GMT References: <1991Sep05.215012.3207@pmafire.inel.gov> <47424@cup.portal.com> Organization: Penn State University Lines: 57 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15283 alt.alien.visitors:2091 In article <47424@cup.portal.com>, Don_-_Showen@cup.portal.com says: > >Steve Reiser comments > >>In the mid-1960s I had strong interest which I dropped because not one >>shred of convincing evidence came forth to indicate that unidentified >>flying objects were in fact the space craft of extraterrestrial beings. >>To my knowledge this is still the current state of affairs on the subject. > >Okay, I have pulled myself down off the roof, I have counted to 20 a hundred >times. I promise I am going to do my absolute best to stay calm. Have you >studied at all the case of Billy Meier? How many of the over 500 photos have >you seen? If you want to raise a strong case for UFO's, stick to Bentwaters and the disappearance of that pilot in Australia. Billy Meier is a FOOL, period. He runs a cult. If you worship him, he will let you hear his pro-alien drivel. He once produced a sample of material that may have produced anomalous test results, but that same sample has mysteriously disappeared... I have read Light Years. Someone posted an EXCELLENT rebuttal of ALL of its points on sci.skeptic several years ago. I have seen his films. They don't impress me. I did better effects in High School with vintage 1960's Black and White video equipment and an ancient switcher. You couldn't see any wires in the movies I made either so I must have had contact with spacemen, right? They shot laser beams too, and it's impossible that it was simply a cheap rainbow effect off of an atari 800, isn't it? These were made roughly in the same time frame as Billy Meier's crap. And MY GOD, I had STUNNING footage of a near flyby of the moon! Ever see Billy Meier produce anything like that? All I ever see is what looks like a model with a gyroscope in it wobbling around a tree. >WOW<... Kneel before me! I am the Great ZONTAR! I have the SECRET KNOWLEDGE! Meanwhile back in reality, here are some other anecdotes... I suppose the models of UFOs found on his farm were simply dramatic recreations of the actual events of his life, and not at all evidence of forgery? And just where is that transmogrifier that Popi gave to him? If he can shoot trees with it (What an eco-terrorist!) why can't he produce it for inspection? Doesn't the cult on his farm raise your hackles even the eensiest bit? Can you say Jim Jones? Can you say Him and Her? Can you say Biosphere II? Admittedly, he's a bit less harmful than the above, but do you accept any outrageous claim about events as the actual truth unless you were actually there to disprove it? Overall, Billy Meier reminds me a lot of the dude who claimed he found an ancient device inside a geode and produced some nifty pictures of the geode itself, but never released it for examination by >ANYONE<. Wanna buy some land? The Atarian Federation will soon be landing there to create crop polyhedra in an effort to finally show that you CAN square the circle. Don't miss it! Send your money today! Scott Le Grand "I'm Popi the UFO man! BEEP! BEEP!" Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!sdd.hp.com!apollo!mcn From: mcn@apollo.hp.com (Michael McNulty) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Bentwater,UK on Unsolved Mysteries Message-ID: <1991Sep20.210726.25285@apollo.hp.com> Date: 20 Sep 91 21:07:26 GMT Sender: netnews@apollo.hp.com (USENET posting account) Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Apollo Division - Chelmsford, MA Lines: 43 Nntp-Posting-Host: roddy.ch.apollo.hp.com Having just finished watching the "Unsolved Mysteries" segment about the Bentwater case, I have a couple of comments and a couple of questions. I though that the presentation of the case was extremely poorly done. I'm not saying that the case isn't valid; I'm saying that the show presented it badly. They took 20 minutes to show what could have been shown in 5 minutes. I had a feeling that maybe they had bought new special effects' machines for this season, so they had to use them. I can't stand "dramatic re-enactments" anyway, and this was a good example of why. I thought that the soldiers and Col. Halt were good in their interviews. Why "re-enact" what they can tell you? I think that their testimony was much more dramatic than the staged stuff. Anyway, the poor quality of the show raised these questions for me: The Colonel mentioned that he brought a photographer out with him. What happned to him? Did he take any pictures? Did they come out? The guy with the Geiger counter (or whatever it was) was all over the place measuring everything, but only once could you hear him say anything about getting high readings. Were all of the other readings (the landing circles that made up a triangle, the trees, etc.) all normal? The show made a big deal about them coming upon a farm house while they were tracking the light. The house was described as glowing, as though it were on fire inside. The narrator seemed to indiacte that the soldiers were surprsied that they had come upon this house. How could soldiers on a base not know what was in the immediate vicinity of their camp? It wasn't a tiny lean-to or shack. It was shown as a two-story house. Also, why was there no mention of anyone exploring the house? Did they? Did anyone go in? Who lives there? What became of this? I can't imagine that nobody checked it out. Like I said, the show ended up annoying me by raising these questions and then not bothering to follow up on them. Do any of you know the answers to any of these questions? Thanks a lot, Mike Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!netcomsv!shoup From: shoup@netcom.COM (Richard Shoup) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Summary: conclusion jumping considered useless Message-ID: <1991Sep20.230724.22060shoup@netcom.COM> Date: 20 Sep 91 23:07:24 GMT References: <1991Sep05.215012.3207@pmafire.inel.gov> Followup-To: sci.skeptic Organization: netcom Lines: 33 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15289 alt.alien.visitors:2093 In article , dh4j+@andrew.cmu.edu (David O Hunt) writes: > > As has been raised before, if aliens really are here, why not contact us in a > way to really make us sit up and notice? It's kind-of like proof of a divine > being...if one exists and wants to be knowm, _how hard could it be to do so?_ > ... > What is to be gained by hiding if you want to make contact? > ... > And if they don't want to make contact, they shouldn't be seen in the first > place. > ... > So where's the PROOF? Not photos, not anecdotes. Where is a room-temperature > superconductor? Where is a material whose strength far exceeds anything we > have today? Well? If they want to be known, WHERE IS THEIR PROOF THAT > THEY ARE HERE????? > Answers to this FAQ are easy and have been speculated upon for a long time: If -- and I stress IF -- an alien civilization has been visiting, they realize that overt direct contact would cause widespread panic, or at least major disruptions on earth. Instead, they could be gradually making their presence known in more and more visible ways. Or, they may have other less-benign reasons... In any case, just because WE can't make sense of the behavior and interactions of a (presumably advanced) culture doesn't seem like a good reason to dismiss them, does it? Like it or not, this stuff is really happening. A lot of these reports are nonsense, but many are undeniable. We would all do well, I think, to avoid jumping to easy conclusions and try to think more deeply about what's going on here. I would recommend Jacque Vallee's books as a good starting point for this. Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!cherokee!teton!joe From: joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: <1991Sep20.231815.21106@cherokee.uswest.com> Date: 20 Sep 91 23:18:15 GMT References: <1991Sep05.215012.3207@pmafire.inel.gov> <47424@cup.portal.com> Sender: news@cherokee.uswest.com (Telegraph Row) Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies Lines: 33 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15290 alt.alien.visitors:2094 Nntp-Posting-Host: teton.uswest.com In article dh4j+@andrew.cmu.edu (David O Hunt) writes: > stuff deleted >I would say, and believe most would agree with me, that alien contact would be >a marvelous thing. Imagine the counterpoints, the opinions, the culture, and >the philosophy to be gained, not to mention additional technology. Why WOULD >there be an interest in hiding these things????? > stuff deleted >David Hunt Unfortunately I think humans need a large amount of time to incorprate new technologies, culture, and philosphy into their culture. Think of the technology shock we would experience with alien technologies, surely they wouldn't be used for only good purposes. I think a good example of this kind of shock is the American Indians. Before we encountered the different tribes of indians most had advanced cultures, but were technological infants. Then we introduced guns, horses, metal tools, etc. Their culture was almost destroyed, and they are still recovering. Not to say that this is the source of all of their problems, but it must have contributed greatly to them. Then there are the Nukes, we dropped them on Japan without knowing for sure what would happen during the explosion, much less after the explosion. However this didn't stop us from doing it. Unfortunately technology is a double sided sword, and it appears humans are not capable of dealing with both edges. Joe Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1!psuvm!sml108 From: SML108@psuvm.psu.edu (Scott the Great) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Bentwater,UK on Unsolved Mysteries Message-ID: <91264.005524SML108@psuvm.psu.edu> Date: 21 Sep 91 04:55:24 GMT References: <468@sgfb.ssd.ray.com> <91262.133541SML108@psuvm.psu.edu> <1991Sep20.151839.2829@descartes.waterloo.edu> Organization: Penn State University Lines: 52 In article <1991Sep20.151839.2829@descartes.waterloo.edu>, jsinclai@descartes.waterloo.edu (Jack Sinclair) says: > >In article <91262.133541SML108@psuvm.psu.edu> Scott the Great > writes: >>Many discrepancies... One of the biggest was something I saw presented on >>HBO many years ago. Colonel Halt's tape was played and the light from the >>nearby lighthouse was displayed at the same time. It was clear that his >>observations of lights in the sky basically corresponded EXACTLY with the >>period of the lighthouse. Weren't they also claiming that they were > >What is 'EXACTLY' ? They played the tape and showed the lighthouse light at the same time. They synchronized it such that whenever the light passed by, Colonel Halt's voice said "There it is again." This happened basically EVERY TIME the light went by. I agree that he is one of the more qualified witnesses for this kind of phenomena, but it was pretty convincing to me that he was mistken in this case. >>taken on board to repair the ship previously? Anyone out there remember >>the full body of evidence against this case. The one debunker they had >>on there was either paraphrased improperly (most likely) or just had >>no personality. >> >> >>Scott > >The debunker on the show shifted his eyes so fast, and so often, I kept >wondering what he was trying to hide from us. All his body language said >was 'do not believe me'. However, Unsolved Mysteries is not exactly an unbiased show. Just look at their treatment of the Gulf Breeze incident. Have they ever updated it and broadcast that models of UFOs just like the ones in the videotapes were found in the guy who filmed them's attic? Nah.... They're out for ratings, not the truth... >As for the lighthouse explanation: how could these people, having worked at >this place countless times before, suddenly see a lighthouse beam as an >alien device, and yet never again (except for the two other episodes)? This is the only mystery, but it's not impossible either. What happened to the photographer? What happened to the geiger counter readings? The impact marks are easily faked. There just isn't enough evidence to rate this anything beyond strange... > >Jack. Scott Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!gvlf3.gvl.unisys.com!tredysvr!cellar!revpk From: revpk@cellar.UUCP (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: Mt. Shasta Pt.1 Message-ID: Date: 20 Sep 91 22:55:09 GMT References: <47271@cup.portal.com> Sender: bbs@cellar.UUCP (The Cellar BBS) Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system Lines: 35 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2096 sci.skeptic:15297 Don_-_Showen@cup.portal.com writes: > > This information has been posted for John Winston by Don Showen. > In my last trip to Phoenix for the UFO Conference I had the opportunity > to tape an couple of people named Shield and Sharula Dux. They claim to be > from a city underneath Mt. Shasta called Telos. This city has one and one > half million people. They claim to have been there for the last l4 thousand > years when they came from Lemuria in the Pacific after it sunk beneath the > ocean. The man is from New England, in America but the lady was born in > Telos. They do operate some of the space ships that are seen in our skies. > The overall leader of their space fleet is called Ashtar and a command of on > of their fleet called the Silver fleet is called Anton. > I ll leave you with this saying; Anybody who s as sound as a dollar > these days had better see a doctor. Standard Disclaimer. John. You know, we oughta pay attention to this story. Why? I know a lot of locals who went to the Rainbow Gathering this summer, and nearly all of them came back, acid-fried, and gibbering about how aliens live in a city under Mount Shasta. One person told me, breathlessly, how the aliens moved the entire mountain TEN FEET TO THE LEFT to demonstrate their power. Another also talked at length about visiting power centers at the center of the Pyramid through astral projection. (When I asked, "Which Pyramid?" this person didn't know what I was talking about... and didn't believe me when I told him that there was more than _one_ Pyramid.) I get the feeling Mount Shasta's going to be the Next New Age Hilarity Source. This should be fun. """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Brian Siano, Delaware Valley Skeptics Rev. Philosopher-King of The First Church of the Divine Otis Redding revpk@Cellar.UUCP "Ecrasez l'enfame!" - Voltaire """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!mips!pacbell.com!pacbell!rtech!wrs!davidj From: davidj@wrs.com (David Jones) Newsgroups: sci.archaeology,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: High-tech artifacts near Ogden? Summary: High-tech artifacts near Ogden? Keywords: High-tech artifacts near Ogden? Message-ID: Date: 21 Sep 91 01:45:38 GMT Sender: usenet@wrs.com (News Manager) Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc. Lines: 37 Xref: ns-mx sci.archaeology:692 sci.skeptic:15299 alt.alien.visitors:2097 Nntp-Posting-Host: erra Re: <7758@ns-mx.uiowa.edu> > Hello everyone. We have just heard about an object found approximately > 640 feet under the earth while excavating for room to store radioactive > waste. The object is from 25 to 40 feet in height and there are > apparently 9 of them in a row on a north-south line. There are photos > of it which I have yet to see, but OMNI and several other news services > are doing their damndest to get the photos and/or more info. The site > is around Ogden, UTAH, so if anyone there knows about such an > excavation, please give us the details. The Ogden newspaper has not > knowledge of such activity or such a discovery. When we get the > photos, we will digitize them for those interested. I'll probably get > in trouble for mentioning even this little bit of data but we would > really like info if you know anything. The object has gears and > appears to be a machine or a part of one. One guy says it looked like > a gimbal to him though I have yet to see it to confirm. The story > and photos comes from a scientist working with the Super-Collider > through a mutual friend. That scientist was flown out to the site to > see what he thought the thing was. It is made of an unknown metal or > alloy and cannot be welded or cut. We question how they could take > such an enormouse object from 640 feet down to the surface since it > must weigh many tons. There is speculation that since it is such an > unknown metal, it might be lightweight like some of the fragments from > crashed UFOs are supposed to be. Guess I'm in hot water now but you > guys might furnish more detailed info....I will try to get the > pictures so everyone can see it.....Jerry Has anyone obtained any more information on this? If so, would you please be so kind as to email me at the below address? Thank you. ------------------- David W. Jones davidj@wrs.com OR uunet!wrs!davidj ------------------- Path: ns-mx!uunet!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!torsqnt!geac!maccs!physun!bunker From: bunker@physun.physics.mcmaster.ca (Alex Bunker) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.conspiracy,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Implant story#1 - Off MUFONET "Contact" echo Message-ID: <1991Sep20.171235.23618@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca> Date: 20 Sep 91 21:05:40 GMT References: <1991Sep19.005014.2060@bilver.uucp> Organization: Dept. of Physics, McMaster Univ., Hamilton, Ontario, CANADA Lines: 71 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15301 alt.conspiracy:7340 alt.alien.visitors:2098 In article <1991Sep19.005014.2060@bilver.uucp> dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) writes: > >I found this while reading the MUFONET "Contact" BBS UFO echo > >------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >Message #7610 - CONTACT > Date : 17-Sep-91 0:30 > From : Bob Ross > To : Sandy Barbre >Subject : Re: Abductions >Replies : #6282 <--> #7611 > >Sandy, > Always good to hear from you! When I use the word abduction, I mean that >they physically take me away. I am not sure if any experiments are being done >on me. The only experiments that I know of to date is on my implants. My first >implant was put up through my right nostril and I woke up for the next couple >of days with a bloody nose. A couple of months ago I was implanted again but >this time it was put through my left ear. I will believe you when you go to the doctor, have your implant removed and show it to an acreditted engineer, and have him publish an article on the technology involved in this implant and demonstrate that it comes from a civilization far more advanced than our own. > I have no idea if the other implant >was removed or not. I have not had a bloody nose since that abduction. For >some reason I still can not remember my abductions except for being taken and >being put back. Usually about 3 to 7 days after the abduction I start seeing >images and remember some things. I can't remember of any experiments except >for the implants. I do remember them takeing me to some planet (I think). It >was a very dry and brown place with a very dark purple sky. I remember being >taken by one or two "greys" to a dark grey or black pyramid shape structure. >There were two greys guarding this structure. A grey approached the two that >were takeing me and told them that I was not ready. I was able to talk and >somehow convince them that I was ready to enter the structure. I think that >the grey meant that I was not ready to enter the structure. It seemed to be of >some significant importance to them. I remember going in room after room. I >was quite startled when I saw a lot of human parts. I really started to get >afraid. Finally I ended up into some far off room with a few greys, a human, >and a blond hair-blue eyed female. She looked human but I really don't think >that she was. She pulled out a black box from a shelf. I have no idea what >this black box was but I have never been so afraid of something in my life. >The next thing I know is that I am back in my bed sweating and afraid. I know >that this sounds like a movie of some sort but It was a real experience. Can >you offer any help and do you know of anyone with a similiar experience? >Thank's for everything. > Confused, > Bob Ross see a psichiatrist you are either schizofrenic or a pathological liar or you have an implant to show me. One of the three which is it! >--- QuickBBS 2.75 Ovr (Gamma-2) > * Origin: Pegasus of Orion (719)630-0667 Ltd HRS:18:00-6:30 (MDT) (1:128/94) > >---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Don > > >-- >-* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. >USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) >UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! >UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? ALEX BUNKER Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!rtech!wrs!davidj From: davidj@wrs.com (David Jones) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Marrs & End of world in 1997? Summary: Marrs & End of world in 1997? Keywords: Marrs & End of world in 1997? Message-ID: Date: 21 Sep 91 01:41:30 GMT Sender: usenet@wrs.com (News Manager) Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc. Lines: 67 Nntp-Posting-Host: erra Re: <1991Aug29.020039.29782@netcom.COM> > A fellow at work told me of an author by the surname Marrs who says that > computers will become the device of the devil; that things bad will start > happening about 1997; that the devil will take the form of a human and do > miraculous things, then doublecross humankind and cause armageddon. > > Anyone know more about this? About books by Marrs? I am intrigued by all > this. I have not heard anything more about this. Anyone care to email me with more information? I have studied prophesy for the last 22 years. It all started with Edgar Cayce, went into Biblical, St. Malachi (there are only two popes left before the end), Mayan, Hindu, Buddhist, Nostradamus (they just found 100 new quantrains behind a brick wall in the basement of one of the houses he used to live in: He said that world war would be in full swing by mid 1997), and so on. The latest is Gordon-Michael Scallion. His current accuracy rate is 97%. He has several tapes and can be reached at: Matrix Institute RR1 Box 391 Westmoreland, NH 03467 Earth Changes Report Newsletter $59.95 (monthly) Tape I: Earth Changes America included with Newsletter subscription or 11.95 Tape II: Economic Survival America 11.95 Shipping & Handling 2.75 The tapes cover 1991-1997. Gordon-Michael Scallion says that the Hayward fault (in California) will cause the state of California to be the Isles of California and Pheonix will be a seaport. "Ocean-front property" in Arizona? Among many other things. Sun Bear says only invest in real estate that you can grow your own food on. This is, of course, if the real estate is in a "safe" place. Then, of course, there is this (supposedly) Meitraya character outside of London that is supposed to come on TV world-wide and proclaim himself the messiah .... Even Billy Meier (this IS the alt.alien.visitors newsgroup) received a book of information on prophesy from his physical contact with the Pleiadean cosmonaut Semjase. It is only in German. I have ordered a copy. I have a friend that will be with Billy in a few days. We have permission to translate and publish it (and any other of Billy`s German-only books) with Wildflower Press in Oregon if we can work something out. So, it will be interesting to see what the extraterrestrails say about our future. Remember, they took Billy back in time on several occaisions. The craft that they traded the Timmers for from the Daal universe (I have a photograph of it) also has the capacity to go into the future. So, if they've already been there .... ------------------- David W. Jones davidj@wrs.com OR uunet!wrs!davidj ------------------- Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!rtech!wrs!davidj From: davidj@wrs.com (David Jones) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: ALIENS Summary: Re: ALIENS Keywords: Re: ALIENS Message-ID: Date: 21 Sep 91 01:42:25 GMT Sender: usenet@wrs.com (News Manager) Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc. Lines: 28 Nntp-Posting-Host: erra Re: <7608@ns-mx.uiowa.edu> <1094@cronos.metaphor.com> <45679@cup.portal.com> >Its funny how the greys have a similar look to the aliens of the movie >CLOSE ENCOUNTERS OF THE THIRD KIND. The Greys in this movie, as well as the tall insect-like creatures, were an exact replication of hundreds of eye-witness accounts prior to the time the movie was made. That's why they are there. The producer did his homework. Why didn`t you? >Why have we not heard anything about greys prior to this movie? hmmm? Try looking at the facts. There is direct evidence, including public photographs, since 1947. Most people that make rash comments like this are those that have not looked at the facts, reviewed the evidence or cared to do any research at all, but, unfortunetely for the public, and, fortunately for the Secret Government, they believe that which is not true. This reminds me of the people at NASA and JPL that bad mouth Hoagland in regards to the face on Mars without ever looking at any of the data that he has. If, after reveiwing the data, you wish to beleive it's crazy, fine. But don`t do it until after. ------------------- David W. Jones davidj@wrs.com OR uunet!wrs!davidj ------------------- Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!rtech!wrs!davidj From: davidj@wrs.com (David Jones) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Strange Dreams.. Summary: Strange Dreams.. Keywords: Strange Dreams.. Message-ID: Date: 21 Sep 91 01:43:06 GMT Sender: usenet@wrs.com (News Manager) Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc. Lines: 17 Nntp-Posting-Host: erra Re: <5Xiq81w164w@sys6626.bison.mb.ca> > Does it mean anything if you keep having strange dreams with Aliens/UFO's in > them? Or is just an over active imagination? Some investigators would say that you are having a "screen memory". Some people find the experience so intense that they can only remember it as a dream. Some people are hypnotized by the Greys and/or the United States Air Force to forget it all and if they do remember, it will be "only a dream". Then, of course, maybe it IS only a dream ... ------------------- David W. Jones davidj@wrs.com OR uunet!wrs!davidj ------------------- Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!rtech!wrs!davidj From: davidj@wrs.com (David Jones) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Who's seen a 'Grey' ? Summary: Who's seen a 'Grey' ? Keywords: Who's seen a 'Grey' ? Message-ID: Date: 21 Sep 91 01:43:59 GMT Sender: usenet@wrs.com (News Manager) Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc. Lines: 33 Nntp-Posting-Host: erra Re: <1991Aug20.054043.20345@cbnewse.cb.att.com> > Id be extremely skeptical of anyone who claimed to see one of these "people". This does, I assume, include the U.S. Secret Government? > First of all, admitting that you thought you saw one would be tantamount > to admitting insanity or lying. This statement is a testament to the success of the government`s "insane" cover-up of the truth by "lying" to the American public. This statement reminds me of the Catholic Church burning people at the stake for believing the world was round. > Second, I think that an overriding factor in such an experience, if we > are to believe the evidence already presented, is that you would > a) Not remember the experience > b) As the experience would fall so completely outside the realm of > normal existence, you would not believe it was "real" This appears to be true. > Maybe hypnosis helps here. Although, maybe all hypnosis does is to help > you believe your fantasies are real. Tell that to the police and courts that use hypnosis to convict criminals. ------------------- David W. Jones davidj@wrs.com OR uunet!wrs!davidj ------------------- Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!rtech!wrs!davidj From: davidj@wrs.com (David Jones) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Marrs & End of world in 1997? Summary: Marrs & End of world in 1997? Keywords: Marrs & End of world in 1997? Message-ID: Date: 21 Sep 91 01:44:51 GMT Sender: usenet@wrs.com (News Manager) Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc. Lines: 19 Nntp-Posting-Host: erra Re: <3946@shodha.enet.dec.com> > In other words nks get a life and take this discussion to > alt.bullshit. > > Steve Ah, another brainwashed American citizen. They are everywhere. I do not feel so bad about Bryan Woodworth's searching for an answer to the truth, or that Steve Timpson has his head in the sand, but that I have to live in a country that perpetuates dishonesty by intentionally lying to those that support it. I feel sad for this country when I read things like this. ------------------- David W. Jones davidj@wrs.com OR uunet!wrs!davidj ------------------- Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!rtech!wrs!davidj From: davidj@wrs.com (David Jones) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Pseudosurvey Summary: Pseudosurvey Keywords: Pseudosurvey Message-ID: Date: 21 Sep 91 01:46:24 GMT Sender: usenet@wrs.com (News Manager) Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc. Lines: 30 Nntp-Posting-Host: erra Re: <7089@tellab5.tellabs.com> > Having been "lurking" for a few weeks, I would really like to > know how many of you people posting these "grays" articles > actually believe that there's a govt-ET conspiracy to stop > valid data on this sort of stuff. Well, having spent some time with many investigators, I guess that Stanton sums it up best when he says that if it were a murder trial, the evidence would be so overwhelming that the only verdict would be guilty. > I don't mean to flame or > ridicule anyone, but you gotta admit some of this stuff is > way out there. Again, another American that has not reviewed the facts. If only people would get off their duffs and buy some books, go to some lectures, talk to abductees, etc., before making silly statements like the above, then, perhaps the so-called hundredth monkey syndrome would manifest and cause a shift in consciousness allowing the government to tell the truth and thereby balance the natural earth forces. Ah well, I guess I can dream .... ------------------- David W. Jones davidj@wrs.com OR uunet!wrs!davidj ------------------- Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!rtech!wrs!davidj From: davidj@wrs.com (David Jones) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Pseudosurvey Summary: Pseudosurvey Keywords: Pseudosurvey Message-ID: Date: 21 Sep 91 01:47:32 GMT Sender: usenet@wrs.com (News Manager) Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc. Lines: 47 Nntp-Posting-Host: erra Re: <1991Aug29.215649.29935@convex.com> > That stuff is so far > out, and it just sits there with all these outrageous claims and no real > support that I just read it and groan. If (emphasis on if) any one of these > files contained a grain of truth in it, there would be no way for us (sitting > each of us at our respective terminals) to be able to separate the one grain > of truth from all the paranoia and hype and various ramblings of emotionally > unstable individuals. Admittedly, there is a lot of nonsense out there. Unfortunately, it`s created by our own government. I reiterate again, here is another American that has not done his homework. I challenge you to go out review the facts before making bold statements of denial. > And all the bizarre stories that leak out are the horrible perversions of the > real truth. The real truth is not that we are being invaded, but that there > is something really weird living on the same planet as us (maybe always has > been here), but you can't grab it and hold it. It always has a way of > slipping away, like a leprechaun or something. The only "really weird" thing living here are those that have their head in the sand and, yup, you guessed it, the Secret Government. If only the SG would come clean, then we would not have to have these unknowledgeable postings. Perhaps your "leprechaun or something" is really a Grey? > There are so many military personnel who know about parts of the mystery that > it is getting harder and harder to keep it all secret. But what happens is > that a secret that gets whispered in dark places to paranoid people comes out > bearing little resemblance to the reality that it originally reflected. I couldn't agree more. Just remember JANAP 146, I`m sure they do. This is the governments way of blackmailing these people. If a military person signs the Joint Army Navy AirForce protocol and report publically a UFO or IAC, then they lose their military benefits, get a $10,000 fine and a not so honorable discharge. Who would YOU tell? I bet that some of these people are reading this now and they wish they could find a way to tell the people that pay them (us, their mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, aunts, uncles, friends) the truth. I suppose that if I advocated them telling secrets, that I may get a visit from an undesirable. So, even I am intimidated from advocating truth in government. Interesting, eh what? ------------------- David W. Jones davidj@wrs.com OR uunet!wrs!davidj ------------------- Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!noao!asuvax!anasaz!qip!billy From: billy@anasaz (Bill Moore) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Bentwater,UK on Unsolved Mysteries Message-ID: <1991Sep20.153646.14915@anasaz> Date: 20 Sep 91 15:36:46 GMT References: <468@sgfb.ssd.ray.com> <1991Sep19.181433.12751@src.honeywell.com> Organization: Anasazi, Inc. Phoenix, Az Lines: 38 In article <1991Sep19.181433.12751@src.honeywell.com> gcary@SRC.Honeywell.COM (Greg Cary) writes: ]>Here are some comments I have about the Bentwater case on Unsolved Mysteries ]>last night: ]> ]>What ever happened to the camera man? The Colonel asked for a camera man ]>but I guess he never showed up. ]>I wish they had done polygraph tests to add credibility. The chance that ]>4 people could all pass a polygraph test is pretty slim. ]>They never did soil samples and never really said anything in detail about ]>the radiation levels. ]>As expected, the case was sensationalized in its presentation. In particular, ]>I enjoyed the part where the UFO shines its light down and it makes noise. ]>(I don't remember them saying anything about it making noise). ]>All in all though, the case sounds pretty convincing. ]> Well, they left out a couple of things. It was foggy on the nights in question and there was a light house not far away. Many skeptics have pointed out that the cycle and duration of the"pulsing" lights seen were in sync with the beacon on the lighthouse. The "beams", according to the skeptics, were meteors. (The TV show pointed out there was a meteor shower that night) I've heard the tape but don't remember when or where. I'll check my library this weekend. CNN covered this event pretty extensively and I've got that on tape. Their recreation was a little less sensational and the light house theory is much easier to see. This presentation on Unsolved Mysteries did not match my understanding of what I had heard called the "Brentwood Landing." Is there another case at the same place at about the same time? I had heard some airmen had come forward to say they were part of a heavy security detail that surrounded an area in the woods where a UFO landed. The story is that one of the occupants came out and "communicated" with a high ranking military official. Does anyone know anything about that one? -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bill Moore billy%anasaz.UUCP@asuvax.eas.asu.edu (602) 395-1768 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!noao!asuvax!anasaz!qip!billy From: billy@anasaz (Bill Moore) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Bentwater,UK on Unsolved Mysteries Message-ID: <1991Sep20.154706.15485@anasaz> Date: 20 Sep 91 15:47:06 GMT References: <468@sgfb.ssd.ray.com> <91262.133541SML108@psuvm.psu.edu> Organization: Anasazi, Inc. Phoenix, Az Lines: 41 In article <91262.133541SML108@psuvm.psu.edu> SML108@psuvm.psu.edu (Scott the Great) writes: >In article <468@sgfb.ssd.ray.com>, plw@sgfb.ssd.ray.com (Paul L. White) says: ... stuff deleted ... ]>> ]>>One glaring departure in the tv program from the literature was the ]>>fact that several witnesses (the three airmen) reported that the ]>>UFO that landed, leaving the three 1.5"deep by 7" diameter circular ]>>depressions, was triangular in shape. The UFO shown on the program was ]>>circular. . .artistic license? ]>> ]>>There were other discrepancies that would either indicate poor research ]>>or a change in story after 11 years. ]> ]>Many discrepancies... One of the biggest was something I saw presented on ]>HBO many years ago. Colonel Halt's tape was played and the light from the ]>nearby lighthouse was displayed at the same time. It was clear that his ]>observations of lights in the sky basically corresponded EXACTLY with the ]>period of the lighthouse. Weren't they also claiming that they were ]>taken on board to repair the ship previously? Anyone out there remember ]>the full body of evidence against this case. The one debunker they had ]>on there was either paraphrased improperly (most likely) or just had ]>no personality. ]> Yeah, now I remember. I believe it was CNN, not HBO but I knew I had heard the tape. Their presentaion showing the lighthouse period over the Colonel's remarks was pretty convincing. Every time the beam swept around they started ooing and ahing and as it swept away, they thought the UFO was climbing away. On one occasion, as the beam swept landward, you could hear someone say "it's coming down again." And I remember reports about airman being taken aboard to help repair the UFO in addition to the "meeting" I mentioned in a previous post. I'm pretty convinced this was a light house sighting that has taken on some embellishments over the years. -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bill Moore billy%anasaz.UUCP@asuvax.eas.asu.edu (602) 395-1768 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Gulf Breeze Six [was Re: Kansas disappearances] Message-ID: Date: 21 Sep 91 05:07:37 GMT References: <387@anuurn.UUCP> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 44 In article <387@anuurn.UUCP> ffoire@anuurn.UUCP (Jeff Orrok) writes: >jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) writes: >> it'll probably be a Messianic cult like the so-called "Gulf Breeze Six", > >Gulf Breeze Six? Is this related to the Gulf Breeze sightings? I haven't >heard of this before. It's loosely related, and I never saw or heard anything in the non-digital media about it. (Lots of people did, lots of people didn't, and there were of course rumors that it was being covered up. Bill English, no less, said he had a friend in one of the wire services who told him that orders came from somewhere to kill the story.) Basically, six military intelligence types stationed in Augsburg (sp?) Germany went AWOL and suddenly turned up in Gulf Breeze. The story that circulated was that they were waiting to kill the Antichrist (who he was wasn't specified) and then meet Jesus in a UFO. If I remember rightly, they later denied it as something invented by someone other than themselves but did admit to leaving Germany because they were frightened of some paranormal phenomena there. (No specifics on the phenomena.) At least one of them also wanted to meet Bill Cooper because their religious ideas apparently matched his theories. Then some of the media in the area suddenly received copies of a few UFO pictures with parts cut out, and a message saying something like: "TO THE ARMY: FREE THE GULF BREEZE SIX! WE HAVE THE BOX OF 200 PLUS DOCUMENTS YOU WANT. NEXT WE SEND THE WHOLE PICTURES AND THEN EVERYTHING UNLESS YOU COMPLY." Unfortunately the last thing I heard was that they got off with much less than the normal punishment (could be just the Army attempting to disassociate themselves from them before people started asking how they got in in the first place etc.) and no more pictures appeared. This was all a year or two ago, I don't remember for sure. I'm sure I have the ParaNet traffic about it somewhere, but it's not worth finding right now. The only thing I can't remember is the exact date and the names of the personnel involved. -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@amix.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!ipso!runxtsa!jason From: jason@runx.oz.au (Jason Haines) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: MASS INTELLIGENCE Message-ID: <1991Sep22.043407.5587@runx.oz.au> Date: 22 Sep 91 04:34:07 GMT References: <1653@mixcom.COM> Organization: RUNX Un*x Timeshare. Sydney, Australia. Lines: 58 In article <1653@mixcom.COM> jjwwjj@mixcom.COM (Robotic Systems) writes: >Just two ideas about crop circles: > >1) I read somewhere that the atmosphere of Jupiter is considered one of the > most likely places we might find life in our solar system. This got me > thinking: maybe our atmosphere is not only alive (with bacteria, etc...) > but also intelligent and organized! Maybe it is trying to communicate > with us (ie. "Stop Polluting!"). Is Jupiter's (and Saturn & Uranus') Red > Spot another type of crop circle? The entire planet is a living organism with humans, other animals, plants, bacteria. The human body needs bacteria to aid digestion, and there are millions of lifeforms on and inside every human. The pictographic nature of the crop circles is clearly communication from another form of life, perhaps at a higher level of consciousness. As I see it, the life process that spawned on Earth is trying to reestablish balance with it's smaller lifeforms. Humans are going down the path of the dinosaurs that failed to understand. Humans are the necessary lifeforms for transporting the Earth life process across to another planet, Mars is a good candidate. Without a form of life capable of travelling to other planets, Earthly life cannot spread. If people can accept that Noah heard from God, why can't these same people understand that the Earth speaks to us? >2) Also along the lines of mass, organized intelligence, is it possible > the whole human race is sub-conciensously trying to communicate as a > whole? I know this sounds far out, but I think something like this > was part of the "Ghost Busters" movie... when everyone in NYC had > to think good thoughts to kill the evil spirits (or something like > that). Maybe collectively we are the "alien" intelligence causing > the crop circles! Has anyone transcribed these crop-circles and tried to decode them? >As crazy as these ideas sound, I am interested in any replys. Please >post for all to read. Your ideas are not crazy, I feel it too. >Finally, does anyone know anymore about the giant objects found under- >ground in Ogden, Utah? No, tell us what you know. >Clint Laskowski Post Office Box 552, Cudahy, Wisconsin 53110-0552 >ROBOTIC SYSTEMS INTERNET: robots@mixcom.com VOICE: (414) 769-9332 Jason -- Jason Haines, aka Baron INTERNET:jason@runxtsa.runx.oz.au UUCP: uunet!runxtsa.runx.oz.au!jason ACSNet: jason@runxtsa.runx.oz _______________________________________________________________________ Path: ns-mx!uunet!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!torsqnt!geac!maccs!physun!bunker From: bunker@physun.physics.mcmaster.ca (Alex Bunker) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: <1991Sep21.124045.24695@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca> Date: 21 Sep 91 16:26:22 GMT References: <47424@cup.portal.com> <1991Sep20.231815.21106@cherokee.uswest.com> Organization: Dept. of Physics, McMaster Univ., Hamilton, Ontario, CANADA Lines: 23 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15312 alt.alien.visitors:2110 In article <1991Sep20.231815.21106@cherokee.uswest.com> joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) writes: >In article dh4j+@andrew.cmu.edu (David O Hunt) writes: >>I would say, and believe most would agree with me, that alien contact would be >>a marvelous thing. Imagine the counterpoints, the opinions, the culture, and >>the philosophy to be gained, not to mention additional technology. Why WOULD >>there be an interest in hiding these things????? Aliens would probably find us however quite boring. The dominant activity of the human race is tribal warfare and we are still plagued with such ignorance pestilences as religious faith and nationalism. When there is no more dogma faith or bizarre feelings of belongings to arbitrary subgroups of humanity and we have a culturally mixed skeptical society with a moral fabric based on reason and compassion alone and the dominant activities of the human race are scientific searching and artistic creativity THEN the aliens will have something to talk to us about. unfortunately sci.skeptic and alt.atheism types are still outnumbered by silly UFO and PSI fairytalers mentally confined faith adherers and pathetic flag waving tribalistic patriots. ALEX BUNKER sorry just something that has been bothering me and I had to get it off my chest. Path: ns-mx!uunet!coplex!disk!unknown From: unknown@disk.uucp (unknown) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Why bother? Keywords: huh? whuh? hey-uhhh? Message-ID: <1991Sep22.023144.7314@disk.uucp> Date: 22 Sep 91 02:31:44 GMT Organization: Digital Information Systems of KY Lines: 48 What leaders do any of you know of that would be worthy of talking with another race of beings? Suppose you were these guys.. Would you want to muck around with our government. Almost all meaningful contact would end up being covered up and concealed from anyone who could really benifit. I'm sort of unique in that I study both physics (quantum mostly) and spiritual and unexplained phenomena.. Put together the ultimate weirdness of quantum physics, where just the presence of observation affects the simplest processes, and all that people have said about our abilities to filter out what we don't want to see, and you've got the perfect playground for the U F O s... Noone can be sure what they are.. They COULD be explainable by our present physics, but most people reading alt.alien.visitors probably doubt that.. They could be illusions or mental fatigue or disease or psycosis, but people who've "been there" say no. They could be the real mccoy, real "alien" visitors, but then again, maybe not. Whatever they are, odds are that their ranks are devided. There are so many stories of coverups and mutiliations on one side, and so many stories of personal encounters and good experiences on the other, that it would seem to make sense that there are actually two or more factions at work. Some say "greys" are good, others that they are bad. But we can't very well make judgement unless we have firsthand experience, can we? Think to yourselves. How effective would it be for them to change the world for the better by attending press conferences and meetings? Could they turn us around by letting themselves be caught on TV? NO!!!! If they do exist, and they are visiting individuals, then perhaps they are actually accomplishing SOMETHING... The situation can be compared to the computer world. You can spend all of your time trying to find someone who "runs" the net to implement your new ideas, or you can simply implement them yourselves and let it spread naturally. All they have to do is affect a few people, and eventually it'll spread. Their intent, good or bad, is most likely what they beleive is best. It's doubtful that they're going to stop what they're doing just so we feel comfortable. Look at the way we've been exploiting our wildlife for the past few hundred years. Have we ever stopped what we were doing and sat down and tried to learn to communicate with the animals? Not until recently have we begun to communicate with some of the higher forms of earth beings.. I just don't see George and Gorbi and some interesting space types chatting in front of the fire anytime soon.. Perhaps we'll find out that reality is alot less rigid than we thought. Maybe Douglas Adams is a prophet?!! :) -- _______________________________________________________________________________ Shawn Beltz :) :) :) The opinions expressed in this message are unknown@disk.UUCP the opinions expressed in this message are uunet!ukma!corpane!disk!unknown the opinions expressed in this message.... Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Bentwater,Uk On Unsolved Mysteries Message-ID: <75455.28DBE004@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 21 Sep 91 23:45:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - From: plw@sgfb.ssd.ray.com (Paul L. White) > Date: 19 Sep 91 13:50:20 GMT > Organization: Raytheon Company, Portsmouth RI > Message-ID: <468@sgfb.ssd.ray.com> > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors > > Watched Unsolved Mysteries last night (18 Sept) about the Air Force > encounter with alleged UFO's. I was interested how the program would > compare with the literature on the 1980 incident. > > One glaring departure in the tv program from the literature was the > fact that several witnesses (the three airmen) reported that the > UFO that landed, leaving the three 1.5"deep by 7" diameter circular > depressions, was triangular in shape. The UFO shown on the program was > circular. . .artistic license? > > There were other discrepancies that would either indicate poor research > or a change in story after 11 years. I would agree. I would be curious about what other things you found out of line? Thanks, Mike -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Kansas Disappearances Message-ID: <75457.28DBE008@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 21 Sep 91 23:53:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - Can anyone fill me in on the disappearance of two women and two > daughters > of one of them in Russel County, Kansas? The only thing I've heard so > far > (just minutes ago on NBC) is that they were "studying" UFOs and rumors > are > rampant that the aliens have snatched them. The authorities aren't > happy > about all the fuss and say that they've recently gotten some solid leads > but it's a bizarre case. My gut feeling is that when the truth is known > it'll probably be a Messianic cult like the so-called "Gulf Breeze Six", > but I'd be a lot more comfortable with better information. I used to have a correspondent in Russell, Kansas for the newspaper there. I will call her and see what details I can get. Also, send me netmail and let me know any other details about this. As you may remember, Russell was a hot bed of stuff concerning Dr. Scott Corder (Remember "The Four"?). Anyway, there were certain things going on that were very strange and "cultish" around that place and I would love to hear more details. I will post to you whatever I learn. Mike -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Wheat Circles And Confessors Message-ID: <75456.28DBE006@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 21 Sep 91 23:46:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - Paranet recently carried an extensive report by James Black on a > circle from Iowa. I think this was in Corn (or Maize in the U.K.) > [please confirm Mike or James] It was a corn field in Iowa Steve. Cheers! Mike -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!uwm.edu!convex.csd.uwm.edu!anthony From: anthony@convex.csd.uwm.edu (Anthony J Stieber) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Pseudosurvey Keywords: Pseudosurvey Message-ID: <1991Sep22.213816.15583@uwm.edu> Date: 22 Sep 91 21:38:16 GMT References: Sender: news@uwm.edu (USENET News System) Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee Lines: 18 In article davidj@wrs.com (David Jones) writes: > Again, another American that has not reviewed the facts. If > only people would get off their duffs and buy some books, go > to some lectures, talk to abductees, etc., before making One could do the same thing with any number of groups, such as channelers, crystal power people, psychics, ghost viewers, hollow earth believers, flat earth beleivers, people who say they have beleive in/seen/talked to God/Jesus/Virgin Mary, etc. The evidence and testimony would be as overwhelming. How do you propose that I seperate the wheat from the chaff? Forgive me if I tend to call it all chaff. From point of view, your own particular beliefs are no more or less plausible than the many other things that humans have believed in for thousands of years. -- <-:(= Anthony Stieber anthony@csd4.csd.uwm.edu uwm!uwmcsd4!anthony Path: ns-mx!uunet!iWarp.intel.com!ichips!intelhf!agora!krowell From: krowell@agora.uucp (Keith Rowell) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: <1991Sep22.163116.9665@agora.uucp> Date: 22 Sep 91 16:31:16 GMT References: <1991Sep05.215012.3207@pmafire.inel.gov> <47424@cup.portal.com> <91263.163931SML108@psuvm.psu.edu> Organization: Open Communications Forum Lines: 34 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15326 alt.alien.visitors:2116 In article <91263.163931SML108@psuvm.psu.edu> Scott the Great writes: About faking UFO films: I did better effects in High School with >vintage 1960's Black and White video equipment and an ancient switcher. >You couldn't see any wires in the movies I made either so I must have had >contact with spacemen, right? They shot laser beams too, and it's impossible >that it was simply a cheap rainbow effect off of an atari 800, isn't it? >These were made roughly in the same time frame as Billy Meier's crap. >And MY GOD, I had STUNNING footage of a near flyby of the moon! Ever >see Billy Meier produce anything like that? All I ever see is what looks >like a model with a gyroscope in it wobbling around a tree. >WOW<... Scott, I wonder if you could do ufology a small service? Would you care to send a good, clean copy of your best film faking UFOs to the Mutual UFO Network? We would love to have a certified hoax UFO film to study. Please certify it this way: (1) Typewrite a one or two page description of your intent in making the hoax and all the technical details you can remember of how you made the film. (2) Take this down to a notary public and have it notarized. (3) Send the entire package to this address: Walt Andrus, Mutual UFO Network, 103 Oldtowne Road, Seguin, TX 78155-4099. If you decide to do this for ufology, be sure to email me so I can give Walt a call and alert him that he will be receiving this package. It is of course very important to us MUFON investigators that we know the origin of potential UFO material. What do you think, Scott? Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!yoyo.aarnet.edu.au!sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au!ijameson From: ijameson@physics.adelaide.edu.au (Iain Jameson) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Implants, end of world, etc. Keywords: naive, gullible. Message-ID: <4657@sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au> Date: 23 Sep 91 00:47:13 GMT Sender: news@ucs.adelaide.edu.au Reply-To: ijameson@adelphi.oz.au (Iain Jameson) Organization: Department of Physics, University of Adelaide, South Australia Lines: 19 Nntp-Posting-Host: adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au Has anyone else noticed that the themes that continue to pop up on this group are also plots for a number of sci-fi/fantasy novels that came out about 10 years ago? The implant one I cannot remember, but it has to do with an ex nazi who is taking over the world by implanting everyone. This guy lives in the antarctic and is very old. Not a bad novel. The end of the world/computer theme comes form a Michael Crichton novel. Wish I could remember its title. A great book. Unless it is all a conspiricy by the secret US government. Got to go, the greys want to go shopping. Iain. Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!pa.dec.com!shodha.enet.dec.com!timpson From: timpson@shodha.enet.dec.com (Steve Timpson) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Marrs & End of world in 1997? Message-ID: <4180@shodha.enet.dec.com> Date: 23 Sep 91 14:01:05 GMT Sender: news@shodha.enet.dec.com Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 54 In article , davidj@wrs.com (David Jones) writes... >Re: <3946@shodha.enet.dec.com> > >> In other words nks get a life and take this discussion to >> alt.bullshit. >> >> Steve > >Ah, another brainwashed American citizen. They are everywhere. I do >not feel so bad about Bryan Woodworth's searching for an answer to the >truth, or that Steve Timpson has his head in the sand, but that I have to >live in a country that perpetuates dishonesty by intentionally lying >to those that support it. I feel sad for this country when I read things >like this. > >------------------- > David W. Jones > davidj@wrs.com OR > uunet!wrs!davidj >------------------- Dear Mr. Jones After reading some of your previous notes here you need to see a shrink. No doubt you believe every dooms dayer that comes along. I have a very open mind but when someone comes along and starts saying that a computer will take over in 1997 and start world war III and this prediction is based on the book of revelations I have to put this person and their book in the same classification as the book "88 Reason wy the Rapture will Happen in 1988" and it's follow up book (I forget the title) by the same author who said that his calculations were in error and that the rapture would happen in 1989. No doubt you were one of the fools that bought into this and was raptured out while I having my head in the sand was left behind during the rapture. I personally believe (this belief is based on observation) that most of the people that buy into this type of clap trap are people that are weak willed and weak minded people who need to be on drugs because they can't handle reality. Are you being lead around by the nose by every book that professes to be enligtened or are you the type that reads with a skeptic eye and then researchs things before acceptance. My guess is you buy into everything bassed upon your previous entries into this file. Yes I do believe in UFO's because I have seen one and was involved with a report of another while on a security detail in the Navy. I also have a very strong background in Metaphysics and a very deep belief in God but I do not believe every piece of shit that comes my way simply because some con man is trying to make a buck off those who are willing to believe whatever is printed. Get a life sport. My head may be in the sand but yours is experiencing a sever case of crainial rectumites. Steve Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!psuvax1!rutgers!rochester!pt.cs.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!netnews.srv.cs.cmu.edu!gerry From: gerry@cs.cmu.edu (Gerry Roston) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: Date: 23 Sep 91 17:06:35 GMT References: <1991Sep05.215012.3207@pmafire.inel.gov> <47424@cup.portal.com> <1991Sep20.231815.21106@cherokee.uswest.com> Reply-To: gerry@cs.cmu.edu (Gerry Roston) Organization: Field Robotics Center, CMU Lines: 50 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15343 alt.alien.visitors:2119 Nntp-Posting-Host: onion.frc.ri.cmu.edu In-Reply-To: joe@teton's message of 20 Sep 91 23:18:15 GMT In article <1991Sep20.231815.21106@cherokee.uswest.com> joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) writes: Unfortunately I think humans need a large amount of time to incorprate new technologies, culture, and philosphy into their culture. Think of the technology shock we would experience with alien technologies, surely they wouldn't be used for only good purposes. Yea, look how long it has taken us to incorporate computers into out day-to-day lives. All of 10 years, maybe? Your point is entirely wrong. We incorporate technology at such a high rate that within mere yeras prroducts go from research ideas to home appliances. I think a good example of this kind of shock is the American Indians. Before we encountered the different tribes of indians most had advanced cultures, but were technological infants. Then we introduced guns, horses, metal tools, etc. Their culture was almost destroyed, and they are still recovering. Not to say that this is the source of all of their problems, but it must have contributed greatly to them. The American Indian culture was extrememly retarded compared to the European culture. They had not even advanced into the Bronze Age, farming and domestcation of animals was unknown, few towns had eveolved, etc. Then there are the Nukes, we dropped them on Japan without knowing for sure what would happen during the explosion, much less after the explosion. However this didn't stop us from doing it. We knew exactly what would happen when the bomb was dropped because we had previously dropped on at Los Alamos. Unfortunately technology is a double sided sword, and it appears humans are not capable of dealing with both edges. This is the only statement you have made which has a germ of truth to it. Yes, technology can be used or abused, but the tendancy now seems to use it. Furthermore, one can even make the case that technology which has been previously abused is now being used beneficially. For instance, one could claim that research into germ warfare can be used for learning about immunology, etc. -- Gerry Roston (gerry@cs.cmu.edu) | A man's ethical behavior should be based Field Robotics Center, | effectually on sympathy, education, and Carnegie Mellon University | social ties; no religious basis is Pittsburgh, PA, 15213 | necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor (412) 268-6557 | way if he had to be restrained by fear and | punshiment and hope of reward after death. | Albert Einstein Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!ukma!ra!cee1 From: cee1@ra.MsState.Edu (The Chuckmeister) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Bentwater,UK on Unsolved Mysteries Message-ID: Date: 23 Sep 91 18:38:30 GMT References: <468@sgfb.ssd.ray.com> Lines: 37 plw@sgfb.ssd.ray.com (Paul L. White) writes: >Watched Unsolved Mysteries last night (18 Sept) about the Air Force >encounter with alleged UFO's. I was interested how the program would >compare with the literature on the 1980 incident. >One glaring departure in the tv program from the literature was the >fact that several witnesses (the three airmen) reported that the >UFO that landed, leaving the three 1.5"deep by 7" diameter circular >depressions, was triangular in shape. The UFO shown on the program was >circular. . .artistic license? >There were other discrepancies that would either indicate poor research >or a change in story after 11 years. Ever heard of a tripod??? Chucke cee1@ra.msstate.edu >======================================================================= >Paul >plw@rayssdb My employer and I rarely > share opinions >======================================================================= -- +------------------------------------------\\ ------------- | Internet: cee1@Ra.MsState.Edu \\ -------------------- | Bitnet: cee1@MSSTATE.BITNET >> Jesus Christ is Lord | Real Identity: Charles Edward Evans // -------------------- +------------------------------------------// -------------- "But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call HERESY, so worship I the God of my fathers, BELIEVING ALL THINGS which are WRITTEN in the law and in the prophets." -- Acts 24:14 Path: ns-mx!uunet!bu.edu!dartvax!mars.caps.maine.edu!maine.maine.edu!io10781 From: IO10781@MAINE.MAINE.EDU (Nobody knows ...) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Glaucoma or close encounters? Message-ID: <91266.155831IO10781@MAINE.MAINE.EDU> Date: 23 Sep 91 19:58:31 GMT Organization: University of Maine System Lines: 24 Did anyone else see this? About a year ago (I could go look up the date, but I'd have to locate my journal first) in or around October (?), a friend and I were walking around outside my house when we saw a large greenish blue star in the sky. Having thought it was rather strange (never seen that one before *shrug*), we watched it for some time. As we watched, it grew in size to that of a dime held at an arm's length. The thing did grow larger to a small extent, but it became hard to see. It was like a group of stars that you can see better when you don't stare directly at them. I believe this was in the Southern sky relative to my house which is close to Augusta, Maine. After watching for quite a while, we decided to go in and warm up. It gets cold in Maine at midnight, especially around October. About an hour later, when we looked, it had dissipated completely and couln't be found. The entire episode taking nearly two hours. We thought it might have been a satelite releasing chemicals or something of that nature but we're really not sure. Nobody we spoke with about the incident had any better ideas either. Do you? I'd appreciate any responses I can get. Thanks You can E-mail me at Cpt_Ugh@maine.maine.edu or just re-post or followup. Captain Ugh Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!att!csn!cherokee!teton!joe From: joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: <1991Sep23.203723.17677@cherokee.uswest.com> Date: 23 Sep 91 20:37:23 GMT References: <1991Sep20.231815.21106@cherokee.uswest.com> Sender: news@cherokee.uswest.com (Telegraph Row) Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies Lines: 41 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15360 alt.alien.visitors:2122 Nntp-Posting-Host: teton.uswest.com In article gerry@cs.cmu.edu (Gerry Roston) writes: > >Yea, look how long it has taken us to incorporate computers into out >day-to-day lives. All of 10 years, maybe? Your point is entirely >wrong. We incorporate technology at such a high rate that within mere >yeras prroducts go from research ideas to home appliances. But yet we are still trying to define new laws to incorporate computer crimes into the exisiting legal stucture. Does your Grandmother/father or mother/father use a computer every day? The first computer was developed in the 1950's (at least 30 years ago), and yet today only 10-30% of households have a personal computer. It doesn't appear that the public has embraced computers to the extent that you have. > >The American Indian culture was extrememly retarded compared to the >European culture. They had not even advanced into the Bronze Age, >farming and domestcation of animals was unknown, few towns had >eveolved, etc. > The Indians had a different way of life. They had different values. Just because they weren't technlogically advanced doesn't mean their culture and traditions weren't. They had art, religon,family units, housing, leadership heirarchy in the tribe. Their view of the world was quite different than that of the Europeans, but this doesn't make their culture retarded. > >We knew exactly what would happen when the bomb was dropped because we >had previously dropped on at Los Alamos. So you are saying the U.S. had full knowledge of the long term effects of radiation. That they also had knowledge that 1000's of people would die, not from the initial blast, but from radiation? Japan is still counting the number of official victims of the blasts to this day. The only thing the US new about (cared about) the bomb at that time was that it was able to cause mass destruction quickly. Joe Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!mucs!mccuts!zzassgl From: zzassgl@uts.mcc.ac.uk (Geoff Lane) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Who's seen a 'Grey' ? Keywords: Who's seen a 'Grey' ? Message-ID: <3526@mccuts.uts.mcc.ac.uk> Date: 23 Sep 91 10:24:36 GMT References: Organization: Manchester Computing Centre, Manchester, England, M13 9PL Lines: 7 Are these Grey men in any way related to the "Men in Black" that used to be reported as following up peoples UFO reports and warning the orginators of the reports not to talk with the media? -- Geoff. Lane. Janet: zzassgl@uk.ac.mcc.uts UTS Sys Admin, Manchester Computing Centre, Oxford Rd, Manchester, M13 9PL Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!ysub!psuvm!sml108 From: SML108@psuvm.psu.edu (Scott the Great) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: <91266.225002SML108@psuvm.psu.edu> Date: 24 Sep 91 02:50:02 GMT References: <1991Sep05.215012.3207@pmafire.inel.gov> <47424@cup.portal.com> <91263.163931SML108@psuvm.psu.edu> <1991Sep22.163116.9665@agora.uucp> Organization: Penn State University Lines: 41 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15374 alt.alien.visitors:2124 In article <1991Sep22.163116.9665@agora.uucp>, krowell@agora.uucp (Keith Rowell) says: > >I wonder if you could do ufology a small service? Would you care >to send a good, clean copy of your best film faking UFOs to the >Mutual UFO Network? We would love to have a certified hoax UFO film >to study. Please certify it this way: (1) Typewrite a one or two page >description of your intent in making the hoax and all the technical >details you can remember of how you made the film. (2) Take this down >to a notary public and have it notarized. (3) Send the entire package to >this address: Walt Andrus, Mutual UFO Network, 103 Oldtowne Road, >Seguin, TX 78155-4099. If you decide to do this for ufology, be >sure to email me so I can give Walt a call and alert him that he will >be receiving this package. It is of course very important to us >MUFON investigators that we know the origin of potential UFO material. > >What do you think, Scott? > My footage was not made in any way as a hoax UFO film. It was simply the special effects to a comedy sketch I did on our High School TV channel. While I was making it, NBC aired a special which included some of Billy Meier's footage. A friend commented to me that my F/X looked a lot better than his, period. I have not made such footage since and I have never set out to make a hoax UFO film (Although I have thought about doing one along the lines of Project Alpha, but I just don't have the time for it anymore). MUFON has access to the Gulf Breeze videotapes, doesn't it? Given that a model which matched the guy's UFO was found in his attic, wouldn't one be justified to assume the footage is fake? I suggest a more useful examination of your ability to rate photographs. Get some graphics experts to generate 10 or so pictures of _real_ aircraft. Some proportion of these 10 will be fake, made using computer graphics or any other useful technique. Now your job is to determine how many and which of the 10 are the fakes and the real Mc Coys. I am completely willing to describe how I did my footage, but the tape was destroyed long ago by some of the less evolved examples of humanity. I still have some of the computer programs I used though... Scott Path: ns-mx!uunet!van-bc!ubc-cs!mprgate.mpr.ca!mprgate.mpr.ca!spani From: spani@mprgate.mpr.ca (Leonard Spani) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Bentwater,UK on Unsolved Mysteries Message-ID: <1991Sep23.224058.8198@mprgate.mpr.ca> Date: 23 Sep 91 22:40:58 GMT References: <468@sgfb.ssd.ray.com> <91262.133541SML108@psuvm.psu.edu> <91264.005524SML108@psuvm.psu.edu> Sender: news@mprgate.mpr.ca Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors Organization: MPR Teltech Ltd., Burnaby, B.C., Canada Lines: 34 In article <91264.005524SML108@psuvm.psu.edu>, Scott the Great writes: [stuff deleted] |> However, Unsolved Mysteries is not exactly an unbiased show. Just look |> at their treatment of the Gulf Breeze incident. Have they ever updated |> it and broadcast that models of UFOs just like the ones in the videotapes |> were found in the guy who filmed them's attic? Nah.... [stuff deleted] I really would appreciate some help here. I have heard that Ed Walters has been exposed because someone found UFO models in his attic. I have also heard that it was the fellow in Europe (Billy Mier(sp?)) who talks to Pliedians who was exposed because someone found models in *his* attic. Someone please help. Who was exposed? Did they both have UFO models in their respective attics? :-) Sorry to pounce but this has been driving me crazy for weeks. -- *********************************************************************** | Leonard E. Spani | //!?\\ | (disclaimer-p) | | spani@tartarus.mpr.ca | \\?!// | t | *********************************************************************** Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!zeus.ieee.org!dorm.rutgers.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Prophesy Message-ID: Date: 23 Sep 91 17:57:09 GMT References: <75061.28D22A70@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 11 In article <75061.28D22A70@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) writes: >Can you tell me more about this one in 1992? Is that the same one that had a >near-miss with us last year? I don't think so. -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@amix.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!zeus.ieee.org!dorm.rutgers.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Dave and Doug's crop circle hoax Message-ID: Date: 23 Sep 91 17:59:09 GMT References: <91253.195627JPST55@LIVERPOOL.AC.UK> <1991Sep11.201717.25579@gtephx.UUCP> <4675@aipna.ed.ac.uk> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 13 In article <4675@aipna.ed.ac.uk> cam@aipna.ed.ac.uk (Chris Malcolm) writes: > >They are claiming the 30,000 pound reward for showing how the crop >circles are made. Who offered this? I can't remember hearing anything about it. Besides, if it's true, it wasn't mentioned in any of the media over here! -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@amix.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!zeus.ieee.org!dorm.rutgers.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts Message-ID: Date: 23 Sep 91 18:12:25 GMT References: <46869@cup.portal.com> <47188@cup.portal.com> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 24 In article <47188@cup.portal.com> Don_-_Showen@cup.portal.com writes: >will see from the transcript we are not evolved, we as humans were created >fully evolved and some entities(gods) scrambled our DNA so we are actually >using only 1/6 of our DNA the other 5/6 is idle. Hence the observation that we >only use 1/10 of our brain. I feel that the exciting thing about the Pleiadian >teachings is that we can fully activate our brain (DNA) and that we can do it >in this lifetime. I think that the reason that our brain is 90% water is that Except for the part about entities tampering with us, this sounds a little like the eight-circuit model invented by Timothy Leary. He claims that there are eight major regions or modes of brain activity and at this stage in our evolution most of us are only using four of them by default. We're evolving as a species toward using more of them, and until then individuals can activate the higher four through various methods. The particularly interesting part is that the lower four circuits are all we need to lead a terrestrial, material life and the higher four are more suited to an extraterrestrial, spiritual life (and even transcendance of time and space.) -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@amix.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!sol1.gps.caltech.edu!CARL From: carl@sol1.gps.caltech.edu (Carl J Lydick) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: <1991Sep24.060836.14778@cco.caltech.edu> Date: 24 Sep 91 06:08:36 GMT References: <1991Sep20.231815.21106@cherokee.uswest.com> ,<1991Sep23.203723.17677@cherokee.uswest.com> Sender: news@cco.caltech.edu Reply-To: carl@sol1.gps.caltech.edu Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera Lines: 20 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15382 alt.alien.visitors:2129 Nntp-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu In article <1991Sep23.203723.17677@cherokee.uswest.com>, joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) writes: > But yet we are still trying to define new laws to incorporate computer > crimes into the exisiting legal stucture. Does your Grandmother/father > or mother/father use a computer every day? The first computer was > developed in the 1950's (at least 30 years ago), and yet today only 10-30% > of households have a personal computer. It doesn't appear that the > public has embraced computers to the extent that you have. Are you perhaps forgetting to include the personal computers sitting somewhere in their cars? In their microwave ovens? In their VCRs? In the gadgets that make VCRs easier to program? They are not only using computers, they are doing so without even thinking about the fact that they're using them. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL Disclaimer: Hey, I understand VAXes and VMS. That's what I get paid for. My understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below). So unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my organization responsible for it. If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it. Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!ipso!runxtsa!jason From: jason@runx.oz.au (Jason Haines) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: <1991Sep23.115225.1264@runx.oz.au> Date: 23 Sep 91 11:52:25 GMT References: <47424@cup.portal.com> <1991Sep20.231815.21106@cherokee.uswest.com> <1991Sep21.124045.24695@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca> Organization: RUNX Un*x Timeshare. Sydney, Australia. Lines: 41 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15388 alt.alien.visitors:2130 In article <1991Sep21.124045.24695@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca> bunker@physun.physics.mcmaster.ca (Alex Bunker) writes: >Aliens would probably find us however quite boring. The dominant activity of >the human race is tribal warfare and we are still plagued with such >ignorance pestilences as religious faith and nationalism. When there is no >more dogma faith or bizarre feelings of belongings to arbitrary subgroups of >humanity and we have a culturally mixed skeptical society with a moral fabric >based on reason and compassion alone and the dominant activities of the >human race are scientific searching and artistic creativity THEN the aliens >will have something to talk to us about. unfortunately sci.skeptic and >alt.atheism types are still outnumbered by silly UFO and PSI fairytalers >mentally confined faith adherers and pathetic flag waving tribalistic >patriots. > >ALEX BUNKER * tribal warfare is likely a problem elsewhere. It is natural for peoples to conflict, and war is one avenue employed to address differences. While I do not condone war, even the most advanced cultures sometimes resort to physical assertion to the extreme. * dogma is a necessity when there are limited resources to deal with all those enquiring minds. Sometimes it is necessary to say "that's just the way it is, son" * The opiate of the masses... Marx really screwed plenty of minds up.. Some people need to have faith in God, to make their everyday drudgery bearable. You have a faith in science being the panacea of all mankind... * I agree that Nationalism has it's distinct disadvantages, Yugoslavia is a case in point... However, Nationalism can help preserve certain unique aspects of a culture that your new world of homogeneous society would destroy. * We are all here to live our lives, try to avoid making others' lives difficult, and to make love... -- Jason Haines, aka Baron INTERNET:jason@runxtsa.runx.oz.au UUCP: uunet!runxtsa.runx.oz.au!jason ACSNet: jason@runxtsa.runx.oz _______________________________________________________________________ Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!ipso!runxtsa!jason From: jason@runx.oz.au (Jason Haines) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Implants, end of world, etc. Keywords: naive, gullible. Message-ID: <1991Sep23.115722.1385@runx.oz.au> Date: 23 Sep 91 11:57:22 GMT References: <4657@sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au> Organization: RUNX Un*x Timeshare. Sydney, Australia. Lines: 19 In article <4657@sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au> ijameson@adelphi.oz.au (Iain Jameson) writes: >Has anyone else noticed that the themes that >continue to pop up on this group are also >plots for a number of sci-fi/fantasy novels >that came out about 10 years ago? There was Greg Bear's Forge of God, Michael Creighton's Sphere... If the world comes to an end...... so be it... HOWEVER, a lot of the Illuminati, Knights of ...., etc. turkeys like playing the people like a violin over this end of the world mania that comes every so often... -- Jason Haines, aka Baron INTERNET:jason@runxtsa.runx.oz.au UUCP: uunet!runxtsa.runx.oz.au!jason ACSNet: jason@runxtsa.runx.oz _______________________________________________________________________ Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!cam-eng!pjh From: pjh@eng.cam.ac.uk (P.J. Hogben) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: <1991Sep24.102155.13362@eng.cam.ac.uk> Date: 24 Sep 91 10:21:55 GMT References: <47424@cup.portal.com> <1991Sep20.231815.21106@cherokee.uswest.com> <1991Sep21.124045.24695@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca> Sender: @eng.cam.ac.uk Organization: cam.eng Lines: 38 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15389 alt.alien.visitors:2132 Nntp-Posting-Host: tw103.eng.cam.ac.uk bunker@physun.physics.mcmaster.ca (Alex Bunker) writes: >In article <1991Sep20.231815.21106@cherokee.uswest.com> joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) writes: >>In article dh4j+@andrew.cmu.edu (David O Hunt) writes: >>>I would say, and believe most would agree with me, that alien contact would be >>>a marvelous thing. Imagine the counterpoints, the opinions, the culture, and >>>the philosophy to be gained, not to mention additional technology. Why WOULD >>>there be an interest in hiding these things????? >Aliens would probably find us however quite boring. The dominant activity of >the human race is tribal warfare and we are still plagued with such >ignorance pestilences as religious faith and nationalism. Why assume that any alien race either won't have "suffered" from any of these or will have managed to eliminate them from their lifestyle long enough ago to be bored by them? > When there is no >more dogma faith or bizarre feelings of belongings to arbitrary subgroups of >humanity and we have a culturally mixed skeptical society with a moral fabric >based on reason and compassion alone and the dominant activities of the >human race are scientific searching and artistic creativity THEN the aliens >will have something to talk to us about. >ALEX BUNKER >sorry just something that has been bothering me and I had to get it off my >chest. Also, if religion and patriotism _IS_ totally "alien" to any aliens we might meet, won't they find them facsinating? I would think it would be more boring to find that an alien race is like one's own race in every resoect. Philippa Hogben Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!ukc!cf-cm!paul From: paul@computing-maths.cardiff.ac.uk (Paul Alun Roach) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: <1991Sep24.142420.7271@cm.cf.ac.uk> Date: 24 Sep 91 14:24:20 GMT References: <1991Sep20.231815.21106@cherokee.uswest.com> Sender: news@cm.cf.ac.uk (USENET News System) Organization: University of Wales College at Cardiff Lines: 43 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15393 alt.alien.visitors:2133 In article gerry@cs.cmu.edu (Gerry Roston) writes: >In article <1991Sep20.231815.21106@cherokee.uswest.com> joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) writes: > > I think a good example of this kind of shock is the American Indians. Before > we encountered the different tribes of indians most had advanced cultures, > but were technological infants. Then we introduced guns, horses, > metal tools, etc. Their culture was almost destroyed, and they are still > recovering. Not to say that this is the source of all of their problems, > but it must have contributed greatly to them. > >The American Indian culture was extrememly retarded compared to the >European culture. They had not even advanced into the Bronze Age, >farming and domestcation of animals was unknown, few towns had >eveolved, etc. > > I know this is getting away from the issue here, but I must point out a big mistake in the above. You have confused 'culture' with 'technology'. It does not make sense to refer to a coherent and structured culture as retarded. Please be clearer about exactly what YOU mean by culture here. As for the original posting, I think the Aztecs would have made a better example, as their structure of civilisation and highly developed, well defined systems of law and religion may be compared more easily with the European equivalents at the time of the Conquistadors' arrival (the first 'meeting' of the respective cultures), and the inevitable consequences of the disparity of technologies. >-- >Gerry Roston (gerry@cs.cmu.edu) | A man's ethical behavior should be based >Field Robotics Center, | effectually on sympathy, education, and >Carnegie Mellon University | social ties; no religious basis is >Pittsburgh, PA, 15213 | necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor >(412) 268-6557 | way if he had to be restrained by fear and > | punshiment and hope of reward after death. > | Albert Einstein Paul Roach Department of Computing Mathematics University of Wales, College of Cardiff WALES Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!uofs!vulture.cs.uofs.edu!bill From: bill@vulture.cs.uofs.edu (Bill Gunshannon) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Bentwater,Uk On Unsolved Mysteries Message-ID: <10210@platypus.uofs.uofs.edu> Date: 24 Sep 91 14:11:31 GMT References: <75455.28DBE004@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Sender: news@uofs.uofs.edu Organization: Department of Computing Sciences Lines: 19 Nntp-Posting-Host: vulture.cs.uofs.edu In article <75455.28DBE004@paranet.FIDONET.ORG>, Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) writes: |> |> I would agree. I would be curious about what other things you found out of |> line? |> One other trivial point (but any inconsistency casts a shadow over the whole thing) was the comment made by one of the Security Police that they left their weapons behind as they were leaving the jurisdiction of the Air Base. I spent a number of years with the Army in Germany. There was no concept of juris- diction. Many is the time I walked the streets of Frankfurt with a loaded pistol in my holster. When your job involves bearing arms, you never leave them behind. bill -- Bill Gunshannon | If this statement wasn't here, bill@platypus.uofs.edu | This space would be left intentionally blank bill@tuatara.uofs.edu | #include Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!casbah.acns.nwu.edu!ils.nwu.edu!shafto From: shafto@ils.nwu.edu (Eric Shafto) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: <3297@anaxagoras.ils.nwu.edu> Date: 24 Sep 91 14:23:19 GMT References: Sender: news@ils.nwu.edu Organization: The Institute for the Learning Sciences Lines: 44 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15396 alt.alien.visitors:2135 gerry@cs.cmu.edu (Gerry Roston) writes: > In article <1991Sep20.231815.21106@cherokee.uswest.com> joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) writes: > I think a good example of this kind of shock is the American Indians. Before > we encountered the different tribes of indians most had advanced cultures, > but were technological infants. Then we introduced guns, horses, > metal tools, etc. Their culture was almost destroyed, and they are still > recovering. Not to say that this is the source of all of their problems, > but it must have contributed greatly to them. > The American Indian culture was extrememly retarded compared to the > European culture. They had not even advanced into the Bronze Age, > farming and domestcation of animals was unknown, few towns had > eveolved, etc. I think you are both nuts. Natives in New Jersey were smelting iron, and corn cannot be raised without cultivation. Furthermore, they did quite well with guns and horses. What destroyed so many cultures was the fact that we were shooting at them all the time. Not to mention little things like deliberately infecting them with diseases, cutting them off from water, destroying their sources of food, and so on. While it was technology that allowed us to do that to them, you can hardly argue that it was the technology itself that destroyed their cultures. It's not like they saw steel and horses and fell apart. > Then there are the Nukes, we dropped them on Japan without knowing for sure > what would happen during the explosion, much less after the explosion. > However this didn't stop us from doing it. > > We knew exactly what would happen when the bomb was dropped because we > had previously dropped on at Los Alamos. Joe's point remains, though. We weren't positive about what would happen when it was dropped at Los Alamos, and we dropped it anyway. On the other hand, we WERE pretty sure about what would happen. -- *Eric Shafto * How many loved your moments of glad grace, * *Institute for the * And loved your beauty with love false or true, * * Learning Sciences * But one man loved the pilgrim soul in you, * *Northwestern University * And loved the sorrows of your changing face; * Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!cronos!zinfandel!eherrera From: eherrera@zinfandel.metaphor.com (Eric Herrera) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Request for info Keywords: Periodicals, conferences Message-ID: <1343@cronos.metaphor.com> Date: 24 Sep 91 15:05:20 GMT Sender: news@cronos.metaphor.com Distribution: usa Organization: Metaphor Computer Systems, Mountain View, CA Lines: 11 Originator: eherrera@zinfandel Would someone please be so kind as to post the names, addresses and telephone numbers of some reputable magazines which deal with the UFO phenomenon? Also, I've seen posters refer to UFO conferences which they have attended. Where are these conferences advertised? I'm interested in attending one. Thank you very much in advance! Also, a word for the hard core doubters. Pick up a book called "Above Top Secret" by Timothy Good. I think its very illuminating on the subject of how the world's governments have been observing one thing but telling the public another. It includes copies of documents obtained via the Freedom of Information Act. Very convincing. Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!cherokee!teton!joe From: joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: <1991Sep24.150432.18592@cherokee.uswest.com> Date: 24 Sep 91 15:04:32 GMT References: <1991Sep23.203723.17677@cherokee.uswest.com> <1991Sep24.060836.14778@cco.caltech.edu> Sender: news@cherokee.uswest.com (Telegraph Row) Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies Lines: 29 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15398 alt.alien.visitors:2137 Nntp-Posting-Host: teton.uswest.com In article <1991Sep24.060836.14778@cco.caltech.edu> carl@sol1.gps.caltech.edu writes: >Are you perhaps forgetting to include the personal computers sitting somewhere >in their cars? In their microwave ovens? In their VCRs? In the gadgets that >make VCRs easier to program? They are not only using computers, they are doing >so without even thinking about the fact that they're using them. I think it is quite a stretch to consider a dedicated processor with less computational power than the original IBM PC, a personal computer. Especially when one compounds the fact that they don't have a storage medium capability (i.e. tape, disk drive, etc) and when the power goes off, everthing is lost except for instructions etched in silicon. And then there is the monitor, LCD or LED display, that's a stretch too, but I digress. Think about it, why would someone need to make a VCR easier to program? Could it be that the public doesn't understand the programming technology? A little piece of trivia: A town in Idaho has just replaced (within the last year) their handcranked telephone system, with a new system. I bet you could sell a lot of VCR programming gadgets to them ! Another piece of trivia: One of the earliest forms of storage medium for computers were card readers/writers. Yet today, many universities and corporations are finally retiring them (within the last 1-5 years). Why did it take so long with all the relatively advanced storage mediums and computers of today? Joe Joe Path: ns-mx!uunet!decwrl!sgi!shinobu!odin!valhalla.esd.sgi.com!bjorn From: bjorn@valhalla.esd.sgi.com (Bjorn Kristian Lindstrom) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Who's seen a 'Grey' ? Keywords: Who's seen a 'Grey' ? Message-ID: <1991Sep24.163353.12499@odin.corp.sgi.com> Date: 24 Sep 91 16:33:53 GMT References: <3526@mccuts.uts.mcc.ac.uk> Sender: news@odin.corp.sgi.com (Net News) Reply-To: bjorn-lindstrom@sgi.com Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc. Lines: 25 In article <3526@mccuts.uts.mcc.ac.uk>, zzassgl@uts.mcc.ac.uk (Geoff Lane) writes: |> |> Are these Grey men in any way related to the "Men in Black" that used |> to be reported as following up peoples UFO reports and warning the |> orginators of the reports not to talk with the media? |> -- |> Geoff. Lane. Janet: zzassgl@uk.ac.mcc.uts |> UTS Sys Admin, Manchester Computing Centre, Oxford Rd, Manchester, M13 9PL Perhaps I can shed some light on this... I believe you are referring to the "Man in black", more widely known as Johnny Cash. He is related to the Grey's, but he is only a second cousin, so he doesn't get as much press in this newsgroup as the Grey's do, who are a much more charismatic and popular bunch! Being an insanely jealous individual, he HATES it when they get more press than he does, which is quite often, so he spends quite a bit of time trying to downplay their success by trying to convince people that they aren't as great as they make themselves out to be. (8= (8= (8= (8= (8= (8= (8= (8= (8= (8= (8= (8= (8= (8= (8= (8= (8= (8= Sometimes I just can't help myself... (8= Bjorn "If you can't laugh, you might as well curl up and die... cause life is not worth living without a smile..." Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!cherokee!teton!joe From: joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: <1991Sep24.155119.19289@cherokee.uswest.com> Date: 24 Sep 91 15:51:19 GMT References: <1991Sep20.231815.21106@cherokee.uswest.com> <1991Sep24.142420.7271@cm.cf.ac.uk> Sender: news@cherokee.uswest.com (Telegraph Row) Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies Lines: 36 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15402 alt.alien.visitors:2139 Nntp-Posting-Host: teton.uswest.com In article <1991Sep24.142420.7271@cm.cf.ac.uk> paul@computing-maths.cardiff.ac.uk (Paul Alun Roach) writes: >In article gerry@cs.cmu.edu (Gerry Roston) writes: >>In article <1991Sep20.231815.21106@cherokee.uswest.com> joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) writes: >> >> I think a good example of this kind of shock is the American Indians. Before >> we encountered the different tribes of indians most had advanced cultures, >> but were technological infants. Then we introduced guns, horses, >> metal tools, etc. Their culture was almost destroyed, and they are still >> recovering. Not to say that this is the source of all of their problems, >> but it must have contributed greatly to them. >> >>The American Indian culture was extrememly retarded compared to the >>European culture. They had not even advanced into the Bronze Age, >>farming and domestcation of animals was unknown, few towns had >>eveolved, etc. >> >> > >I know this is getting away from the issue here, but I must point >out a big mistake in the above. You have confused 'culture' with >'technology'. It does not make sense to refer to a coherent and >structured culture as retarded. Please be clearer about exactly what >YOU mean by culture here. > >As for the original posting, I think the Aztecs would have made a better >example, as their structure of civilisation and highly developed, well >defined systems of law and religion may be compared more easily with the >European equivalents at the time of the Conquistadors' arrival (the >first 'meeting' of the respective cultures), and the inevitable consequences >of the disparity of technologies. > Excellent point (Aztec culture would be a better example than American Indian culture), I will remember it in future discussions of the subject. Joe Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!sol1.gps.caltech.edu!CARL From: carl@sol1.gps.caltech.edu (Carl J Lydick) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: <1991Sep24.174817.9073@cco.caltech.edu> Date: 24 Sep 91 17:48:17 GMT References: <1991Sep23.203723.17677@cherokee.uswest.com> <1991Sep24.060836.14778@cco.caltech.edu>,<1991Sep24.150432.18592@cherokee.uswest.com> Sender: news@cco.caltech.edu Reply-To: carl@sol1.gps.caltech.edu Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera Lines: 75 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15404 alt.alien.visitors:2140 Nntp-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu In article <1991Sep24.150432.18592@cherokee.uswest.com>, joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) writes: >In article <1991Sep24.060836.14778@cco.caltech.edu> carl@sol1.gps.caltech.edu writes: >>Are you perhaps forgetting to include the personal computers sitting somewhere >>in their cars? In their microwave ovens? In their VCRs? In the gadgets that >>make VCRs easier to program? They are not only using computers, they are doing >>so without even thinking about the fact that they're using them. > >I think it is quite a stretch to consider a dedicated processor with less >computational power than the original IBM PC, a personal computer. Especially >when one compounds the fact that they don't have a storage medium capability >(i.e. tape, disk drive, etc) and when the power goes off, everthing is lost >except for instructions etched in silicon. And then there is the monitor, >LCD or LED display, that's a stretch too, but I digress. I've used personal computers with a Z80 as a cpu. This certainly has less computational power than the original IBM PC. The fact that you're unwilling to consider these dedicated processors to be personal computers just shows how widespread the acceptance of computers IS. >Think about it, why would someone need to make a VCR easier to program? >Could it be that the public doesn't understand the programming technology? Because: 1) The interface sucks; 2) The documentation sucks. For example, there are lots of VCRs out there that are blinking 12:00 all day long. Why? Because the @@#@#$%^& instruction manual doesn't make it clear that if you push ANY button between the time you turn the VCR on and when you try to set the time, you can't set the time. Writing good documentation takes at least two people: 1) A person who fully understands what's being documented; and 2) A person who has absolutely no knowledge of what's being documented. The former provides the information about the system, the latter finds the weak points in the documentation. If you have more than a couple of iterations in the development of the documentation, then you need more people in category 2, as the first one will quickly learn enough about the system that he's no longer relying solely on the current version of the documentation and has effectively migrated into category 1. Far too few companies realize this, and instead leave documentation entirely to people in category 1. This phenomenon is not limited to computers. Toy manufactures fond of the phrase "some assembly required" are also notorious for this. >A little piece of trivia: >A town in Idaho has just replaced (within the last year) their handcranked >telephone system, with a new system. I bet you could sell a lot of >VCR programming gadgets to them ! Not necessarily. If the town is small enough that they don't have to hire extra operators to operate the board (i.e., their information operator[s] can also operate the board), then there's no great need to move to more modern technology. This doesn't necessarily indicate a lack of technological sophistication, just economics. >Another piece of trivia: >One of the earliest forms of storage medium for computers were card >readers/writers. Yet today, many universities and corporations are finally >retiring them (within the last 1-5 years). Why did it take so long with all >the relatively advanced storage mediums and computers of today? Again, in part for economic reasons. There were (and probably still are) a lot of seldom-used programs and data sets residing on punch-cards. As long as there's a card reader available, it's not worth the time of the owner of the cards nor the cost of media to move all this stuff to tape or other removable magnetic media. And while there's a substantial amount of stuff stored on cards, it's politically impossible for a computing center to retire the card reader. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL Disclaimer: Hey, I understand VAXes and VMS. That's what I get paid for. My understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below). So unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my organization responsible for it. If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it. Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!ampex!russest From: russest@ampex.com (Steve Russell) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: <1991Sep24.173142.6224@ampex.com> Date: 24 Sep 91 17:31:42 GMT References: <1991Sep20.231815.21106@cherokee.uswest.com> <1991Sep23.203723.17677@cherokee.uswest.com> Sender: steve russell, russest@ampex.com Organization: Ampex Corporation, Redwood City CA Lines: 48 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15405 alt.alien.visitors:2141 In article <1991Sep23.203723.17677@cherokee.uswest.com> joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) writes: >In article gerry@cs.cmu.edu (Gerry Roston) writes: >> >>Yea, look how long it has taken us to incorporate computers into out >>day-to-day lives. All of 10 years, maybe? Your point is entirely >>wrong. We incorporate technology at such a high rate that within mere >>yeras prroducts go from research ideas to home appliances. > > But yet we are still trying to define new laws to incorporate computer > crimes into the exisiting legal stucture. Does your Grandmother/father What does law and computer crime have to do with the above statement? > or mother/father use a computer every day? The first computer was > developed in the 1950's (at least 30 years ago), and yet today only 10-30% > of households have a personal computer. It doesn't appear that the > public has embraced computers to the extent that you have. The first computer was not exactly consider a "personal computer" and there wasn't enough money in the world for the average user to buy one. Besides, it didn't play games. > > >> >>We knew exactly what would happen when the bomb was dropped because we >>had previously dropped on at Los Alamos. > >So you are saying the U.S. had full knowledge of the long term effects >of radiation. That they also had knowledge that 1000's of people would >die, not from the initial blast, but from radiation? Japan is still >counting the number of official victims of the blasts to this day. The >only thing the US new about (cared about) the bomb at that time was that >it was able to cause mass destruction quickly. > >Joe Yes Joe, the U.S. did know of the effects of radiation exposure, re. Madam Curie, et al. We just didn't give a shit as long as it forced Japan to capitulate. The long term STUDY of the effects required an actual blast which Japan provided an excellent case study of. However this apparently wasn't enough for our government 'cause they spent a lot of time, money, and lives experimenting on our own citizens during the atom bomb tests after the war. -steve Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!cherokee!teton!joe From: joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: <1991Sep24.171313.20261@cherokee.uswest.com> Date: 24 Sep 91 17:13:13 GMT References: <3297@anaxagoras.ils.nwu.edu> Sender: news@cherokee.uswest.com (Telegraph Row) Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies Lines: 41 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15406 alt.alien.visitors:2142 Nntp-Posting-Host: teton.uswest.com In article <3297@anaxagoras.ils.nwu.edu> shafto@ils.nwu.edu (Eric Shafto) writes: >gerry@cs.cmu.edu (Gerry Roston) writes: >> In article <1991Sep20.231815.21106@cherokee.uswest.com> joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) writes: > >> I think a good example of this kind of shock is the American Indians. Before >> we encountered the different tribes of indians most had advanced cultures, >> but were technological infants. Then we introduced guns, horses, >> metal tools, etc. Their culture was almost destroyed, and they are still >> recovering. Not to say that this is the source of all of their problems, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> but it must have contributed greatly to them. > >> The American Indian culture was extrememly retarded compared to the >> European culture. They had not even advanced into the Bronze Age, >> farming and domestcation of animals was unknown, few towns had >> eveolved, etc. > >I think you are both nuts. Natives in New Jersey were smelting >iron, and corn cannot be raised without cultivation. Furthermore, >they did quite well with guns and horses. What destroyed so many >cultures was the fact that we were shooting at them all the time. >Not to mention little things like deliberately infecting them with >diseases, cutting them off from water, destroying their sources >of food, and so on. > >While it was technology that allowed us to do that to them, you >can hardly argue that it was the technology itself that destroyed ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >their cultures. It's not like they saw steel and horses and fell >apart. > I didn't write that, what I wrote was that technology contributed greatly to their problems. If the Europeans hadn't developed the technology to sail the ocean and arrive in America, I think the American Indians would be doing pretty well right now. Not only because they wouldn't have contact with us, but also they would have developed technology (if any at all) at a much slower pace. This would have allow their culture to absorb it, with out alot of destruction. Joe Path: ns-mx!uunet!olivea!oliveb!amdahl!JUTS!duts!dfs30 From: dfs30@duts.ccc.amdahl.com (Denise Solis) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: <96fz028I00gA01@JUTS.ccc.amdahl.com> Date: 24 Sep 91 17:39:15 GMT References: <47424@cup.portal.com> <1991Sep20.231815.21106@cherokee.uswest.com> <1991Sep21.124045.24695@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca> <1991Sep23.115225.1264@runx.oz.au> Sender: netnews@ccc.amdahl.com Reply-To: dfs30@DUTS.ccc.amdahl.com (Denise) Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA Lines: 28 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15411 alt.alien.visitors:2143 In article <1991Sep23.115225.1264@runx.oz.au> jason@runx.oz.au (Jason Haines) writes: >In article <1991Sep21.124045.24695@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca> bunker@physun.physics.mcmaster.ca (Alex Bunker) writes: >>Aliens would probably find us however quite boring. The dominant activity of >>the human race is tribal warfare .............................. Heres a thought. Maybe to an alien species we are simply to wild. If we were to go out into the wild and say, tag an animal we would be cautious because of it's ability to do us harm. We would understand it's fear but not know how to set it's mind at ease. Could it be that the alien being encountering us feel the same way? We have tamed oueselves enough to get alond fairly well most of the time but this is true of most animals. Many species live in families .... ...ie wolves, lions...ect.. They are tame to themselves but not to us. Many people claiming they were abducted say this is an ongoing thing usually starting in childhood. Maybe the strange methods of the abductors is to tame us. just a thought. -- ========================================================================= All poetry posted is Copyright protected, anything else is just talk. Denise Solis - Amdahl Corp. dfs30@DUTS.ccc.amdahl.com ========================================================================= Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!sarah!cs.albany.edu!psinntp!uupsi!bony1!billg From: billg@bony1.bony.com (Bill Gripp) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Mt. Shasta Pt.1 Message-ID: <1991Sep23.192201.2642@bony1.bony.com> Date: 23 Sep 91 19:22:01 GMT References: <47271@cup.portal.com> <0cpqxai00Uh_E25WYV@andrew.cmu.edu> Organization: The Bank of New York Lines: 16 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15414 alt.alien.visitors:2144 In article <0cpqxai00Uh_E25WYV@andrew.cmu.edu> dh4j+@andrew.cmu.edu (David O Hunt) writes: >One wonders how much they get in fees/royalties for saying this...if they get >ANYTHING then their credibility is shot. > >If there really is a civilization under Mt. Shasta, they must not be very good >geologists...that whole area is active (geologically speaking) as Mt. >St. Helens >showed. Crater Lake is showing some signs of thermal venting (see this month's >Discover), and Mt. Hood has had micro-tremors for a while (according to my >not-infallible memory). > >Trust a truly "advanced" civilization to build itself underneath a potentially >active volcano! Ah, but it's not active. These signs are all artificial, created by the sub-Shataites to keep nosey, busibuddies away! =8^). Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!watserv1!watdragon!watyew!jdnicoll From: jdnicoll@watyew.uwaterloo.ca (James Davis Nicoll) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: America with No European Contact (was Re: UFOs and Abductees) Message-ID: <1991Sep24.214105.8604@watdragon.waterloo.edu> Date: 24 Sep 91 21:41:05 GMT References: <3297@anaxagoras.ils.nwu.edu> <1991Sep24.171313.20261@cherokee.uswest.com> Sender: news@watdragon.waterloo.edu (USENET News System) Organization: University of Waterloo Lines: 28 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15415 alt.alien.visitors:2145 In article <1991Sep24.171313.20261@cherokee.uswest.com> joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) writes: > >I didn't write that, what I wrote was that technology contributed >greatly to their problems. If the Europeans hadn't developed the >technology to sail the ocean and arrive in America, I think the >American Indians would be doing pretty well right now. Not only >because they wouldn't have contact with us, but also they would have >developed technology (if any at all) at a much slower pace. This would >have allow their culture to absorb it, with out alot of destruction. > >Joe That might have just changed who got to punt on the nomadic cultures. The South and Central American cultures (Mayans, Inca, and Aztecs) might have decided to expand northward, and they do appear to have had a technological and sociological edge on many North American cultures. Granted, I really don't think the Incas and Mayans could have gotten around the rather large roadblock north of them, but didn't the Aztecs trade and war with cultures north of them? I've always thought the Mississippi was extraordinarily well-suited to provide a 'road' through-out the interior of North America. If we had never exploited it thus, *someone* eventually would have set up a culture which *did* (And probably did. How far south did the Mandans trade? Did they get as far south as the northern Mississippi?). A very well-designed river system, indeed :) James Nicoll Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!cherokee!teton!joe From: joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: <1991Sep24.223046.26178@cherokee.uswest.com> Date: 24 Sep 91 22:30:46 GMT References: <1991Sep23.203723.17677@cherokee.uswest.com> <1991Sep24.173142.6224@ampex.com> Sender: news@cherokee.uswest.com (Telegraph Row) Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies Lines: 41 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15417 alt.alien.visitors:2146 Nntp-Posting-Host: teton.uswest.com In article <1991Sep24.173142.6224@ampex.com> russest@ampex.com (Steve Russell) writes: >In article <1991Sep23.203723.17677@cherokee.uswest.com> joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) writes: >>In article gerry@cs.cmu.edu (Gerry Roston) writes: >>> >>> >>>We knew exactly what would happen when the bomb was dropped because we >>>had previously dropped on at Los Alamos. >> >>So you are saying the U.S. had full knowledge of the long term effects >>of radiation. That they also had knowledge that 1000's of people would >>die, not from the initial blast, but from radiation? Japan is still >>counting the number of official victims of the blasts to this day. The >>only thing the US new about (cared about) the bomb at that time was that >>it was able to cause mass destruction quickly. >> >>Joe > >Yes Joe, the U.S. did know of the effects of radiation exposure, re. Madam >Curie, et al. We just didn't give a shit as long as it forced Japan to >capitulate. > >The long term STUDY of the effects required an actual blast >which Japan provided an excellent case study of. However this apparently >wasn't enough for our government 'cause they spent a lot of time, money, and >lives experimenting on our own citizens during the atom bomb tests after >the war. > >-steve Have you viewed the film clips of the "Desenitizing troops to Nuclear warfare"? They are really scary. In one you see a bomb go off in the distance, troops a hiding in trenches, you see a rush of air, dust etc. Then the troops get out of their trenches and begin moving toward the blast. Very scary. Or the one where a mission to fly through a Nuclear blast cloud? I do think that some people in the US new there would be adverse affects associated with radiation, however the people who ordered the blasts didn't or just didn't care. In other words I agree with you steve. Joe Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!cherokee!teton!joe From: joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: <1991Sep24.225124.27195@cherokee.uswest.com> Date: 24 Sep 91 22:51:24 GMT References: <1991Sep24.060836.14778@cco.caltech.edu> <1991Sep24.150432.18592@cherokee.uswest.com> <1991Sep24.174817.9073@cco.caltech.edu> Sender: news@cherokee.uswest.com (Telegraph Row) Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies Lines: 84 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15418 alt.alien.visitors:2147 Nntp-Posting-Host: teton.uswest.com In article <1991Sep24.174817.9073@cco.caltech.edu> carl@sol1.gps.caltech.edu writes: >In article <1991Sep24.150432.18592@cherokee.uswest.com>, joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) writes: >>In article <1991Sep24.060836.14778@cco.caltech.edu> carl@sol1.gps.caltech.edu writes: >>>Are you perhaps forgetting to include the personal computers sitting somewhere >>>in their cars? In their microwave ovens? In their VCRs? In the gadgets that >>>make VCRs easier to program? They are not only using computers, they are doing >>>so without even thinking about the fact that they're using them. >> >>I think it is quite a stretch to consider a dedicated processor with less >>computational power than the original IBM PC, a personal computer. Especially >>when one compounds the fact that they don't have a storage medium capability >>(i.e. tape, disk drive, etc) and when the power goes off, everthing is lost >>except for instructions etched in silicon. And then there is the monitor, >>LCD or LED display, that's a stretch too, but I digress. > >I've used personal computers with a Z80 as a cpu. This certainly has less >computational power than the original IBM PC. The fact that you're unwilling >to consider these dedicated processors to be personal computers just shows how >widespread the acceptance of computers IS. > >>Think about it, why would someone need to make a VCR easier to program? >>Could it be that the public doesn't understand the programming technology? > >Because: > 1) The interface sucks; > 2) The documentation sucks. >For example, there are lots of VCRs out there that are blinking 12:00 all day >long. Why? Because the @@#@#$%^& instruction manual doesn't make it clear >that if you push ANY button between the time you turn the VCR on and when you >try to set the time, you can't set the time. Writing good documentation takes >at least two people: > 1) A person who fully understands what's being documented; and > 2) A person who has absolutely no knowledge of what's being > documented. >The former provides the information about the system, the latter finds the weak >points in the documentation. If you have more than a couple of iterations in >the development of the documentation, then you need more people in category 2, >as the first one will quickly learn enough about the system that he's no longer >relying solely on the current version of the documentation and has effectively >migrated into category 1. Far too few companies realize this, and instead >leave documentation entirely to people in category 1. This phenomenon is not >limited to computers. Toy manufactures fond of the phrase "some assembly >required" are also notorious for this. > >>A little piece of trivia: >>A town in Idaho has just replaced (within the last year) their handcranked >>telephone system, with a new system. I bet you could sell a lot of >>VCR programming gadgets to them ! > >Not necessarily. If the town is small enough that they don't have to hire >extra operators to operate the board (i.e., their information operator[s] can >also operate the board), then there's no great need to move to more modern >technology. This doesn't necessarily indicate a lack of technological >sophistication, just economics. > >>Another piece of trivia: >>One of the earliest forms of storage medium for computers were card >>readers/writers. Yet today, many universities and corporations are finally >>retiring them (within the last 1-5 years). Why did it take so long with all >>the relatively advanced storage mediums and computers of today? > >Again, in part for economic reasons. There were (and probably still are) a lot >of seldom-used programs and data sets residing on punch-cards. As long as >there's a card reader available, it's not worth the time of the owner of the >cards nor the cost of media to move all this stuff to tape or other removable >magnetic media. And while there's a substantial amount of stuff stored on >cards, it's politically impossible for a computing center to retire the card >reader. I don't know if you realize it or not, but you have just basically agreed with my initial thought: Humans need a large amount of time to incorporate new technologies culture, and philosopy into their lives & culture. Whether the delay is because of economics, religion, or plain stupidity (i.e. VCR interface & manuals) from what you have just said it holds true. Joe P.S. A co-worker of mine just suggested that you should rent the movie, the Gods Must be Crazy, I think it would explain alot of what you don't appear to be grasping in our correspondence. Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!bruce!monu0.cc.monash.edu.au!monu6!minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au!rxxgre From: rxxgre@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au (Geof Rey Evans) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: <1991Sep23.234035.2204@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au> Date: 23 Sep 91 23:40:35 GMT References: <1991Sep05.215012.3207@pmafire.inel.gov> <47424@cup.portal.com> Organization: RMIT Computer Centre, Melbourne Australia. Lines: 22 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15427 alt.alien.visitors:2148 dh4j+@andrew.cmu.edu (David O Hunt) writes: >A large shaceship landing at Dulles Airport would do nicely. Perhaps leaflets >distributed on a material that we humans couldn't make as yet. LOTS of ways >to _unambiguously and clearly_ say "We are here." What's with this skulking >about? Why NOT contact national leaders? Why NOT make a public appearance? >Are they afraid of us? Surely aliens who can cross the gulf between stars have >means of defending themselves against our weapons. What is to be gained by >hiding if you want to make contact? * Why all this skulking about ? Are they afraid of us ?? Are you for real ??? If you relate your questions back to the *human* experience (to date) and then put yourself in their (alien) shoes...are you still at all surprised ? I suggest that at this point in time the one who wants to make contact is *you*..... -- ___________________________________________________________________ || Geof Evans | DOMAIN: rxxgre@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au || || Melbourne,Australia 3000 | Tel: +61 3 663 3663 || || If they *really* wanna know...tell 'em God was drunk. || Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!samsung!news.cs.indiana.edu!lynx!cie.uoregon.edu!christ From: christ@cie.uoregon.edu (Christian G. Smith) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Request for info Keywords: Periodicals, conferences Message-ID: <9+kc1jb@lynx.unm.edu> Date: 25 Sep 91 05:42:23 GMT References: <1343@cronos.metaphor.com> Distribution: usa Organization: Campus Information Exchange, University of Oregon Lines: 30 In article <1343@cronos.metaphor.com> eherrera@zinfandel.metaphor.com (Eric Herrera) writes: >Would someone please be so kind as to post the names, addresses and >telephone numbers of some reputable magazines which deal with the UFO >phenomenon? Also, I've seen posters refer to UFO conferences which >they have attended. Where are these conferences advertised? I'm >interested in attending one. Thank you very much in advance! I can give you only one: UFO (published bimonthly by California UFO) 1536 S. Robertson Blvd. L.A. CA 90035 A one-year subscription is $21. The copy I have read very objectively, and it's definately worth sending off for an issue. > >Also, a word for the hard core doubters. Pick up a book called "Above >Top Secret" by Timothy Good. I think its very illuminating on the >subject of how the world's governments have been observing one thing >but telling the public another. It includes copies of documents >obtained via the Freedom of Information Act. Very convincing. Amen. VERY good book. Are there any others of it's caliber and if so, what are they? -- WAR IS PEACE FREEDOM IS SLAVERY IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH christ@cie.uoregon.edu Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!ucselx!crash!benno From: benno@crash.cts.com (Benno Eichmann) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts Message-ID: <1991Sep25.055033.18097@crash.cts.com> Date: 25 Sep 91 05:50:33 GMT References: <46869@cup.portal.com> <47188@cup.portal.com> <1669@ra.MsState.Edu> <47361@cup.portal.com> Distribution: usa Organization: Crash TimeSharing, El Cajon, CA Lines: 13 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15430 alt.paranormal:3156 alt.alien.visitors:2150 talk.religion.newage:6925 Steven, Matrix II by a Valdamar Valerian was a very extensive and interesting collection of details, and if even partly true it is a big dam buster expose! I think Nevada Aerial Research, POB 81407, Las Vegas, NV 89180-1407 may have details. It was published in 1990, July. Don Allen may know something about it in his files? Ben : Path: ns-mx!uunet!rayssd!plw From: plw@sgfb.ssd.ray.com (Paul L. White) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Above Top Secret Message-ID: <475@sgfb.ssd.ray.com> Date: 25 Sep 91 12:09:08 GMT Sender: news@rayssd.ssd.ray.com Organization: Raytheon Company, Portsmouth RI Lines: 25 The literary source for my comparison of the Unsolved Mysteries version of the Bentwater incident to the UFO literature was Tim Good's Above Top Secret. I have noted several postings with acclaim for the book's veracity. Perhaps I would go along with thoroughness; Good seems to have included quite a bit of UFO lore that did not result from FOIA sources. A casual view of the books footnotes and bibliography contain not a few references to bastions of accurate journalism such as the National Enquirer. While generally interesting and seemingly complete, Above Top Secret did not impress me with the claims of Armstrong's discovery of UFOs on the moon. The title of another book based on FOIA sources, A Clear Intent, seemed to be less sensational and the information less slippery. In other words, a person with interest, funding, and time could verify the book's claims. Lately I find the more casual research I do into the subject (UFOs), the more I find the waters completely muddied and turgid. While it would be tempting to blame the environment on efforts at "disinformation," or that UFOs simply do not exist, the real situation is a challenging filtering of signal-to-noise. And there IS a lot of noise. ========================================================================== Paul White plw@rayssdb My employer and I rarely share opinions ========================================================================== Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wupost!psuvax1!rutgers!aramis.rutgers.edu!porthos.rutgers.edu!mcgrew From: mcgrew@porthos.rutgers.edu (Charles Mcgrew) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Request for info Keywords: Periodicals, conferences Message-ID: Date: 25 Sep 91 14:04:03 GMT References: <1343@cronos.metaphor.com> <9+kc1jb@lynx.unm.edu> Distribution: usa Organization: Rutgers Univ., New Brunswick, N.J. Lines: 45 Hi, Here's a couple more: Mutual UFO Network (MUFON) 103 Oldtowne Rd. Seguin, TX 78155 Publishes the MUFON Journal ($25/year, monthly). Highly readable. MUFON has a yearly UFO Symbposium (1991's was in July at Chicago), with proceedings available. MUFON also has a Ham-radio network (which I haven't tuned into yet). (J. Allen Hynek) Center for UFO Studies (CUFOS) 2457 W. Peterson Ave. Chicago, Ill. 60658 Publishes the "International UFO Reporter", $25/year. In my opinion CUFOS tends to take itself a bit too seriously. They seem to be extremely interested in things their own people do, and heap scorn on what everybody else does. On the other hand, they do seem to do good work. They have the NICAP archives. (BTW, anyone know what happened to the late, lamented APRO's material?) FSR Publications, Ltd. P.O. Box 162 High Wycombe Bucks England HP13 5DZ Publshes the most-respected "Flying Saucer Review" - $35/year (4 issues), plus $10 for airmail, or $9 for a single issue. Northern UFO Network (NUFON) 37 Heathbank Road Cheadle Heath Stockport, Cheshire England SK3 OUP Publishes "Northern UFO News", $20/year (6 issues). Charles Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!unixhub!slacvm!doctorj From: DOCTORJ@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Jon J Thaler) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: <91268.065446DOCTORJ@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> Date: 25 Sep 91 14:54:46 GMT Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center Lines: 25 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15441 alt.alien.visitors:2153 rxxgre@minyos.xx.rmit.oz.au (Geof Rey Evans) says: >dh4j+@andrew.cmu.edu (David O Hunt) writes: >> A large shaceship landing at Dulles Airport would do nicely. Perhaps >> leaflets distributed on a material that we humans couldn't make as yet. >> LOTS of ways to _unambiguously and clearly_ say "We are here." What's >> with this skulking about? Why NOT contact national leaders? Why NOT make >> a public appearance? Are they afraid of us? Surely aliens who can cross >> the gulf between stars have means of defending themselves against our >> weapons. What is to be gained by hiding if you want to make contact? > >* Why all this skulking about ? Are they afraid of us ?? Are you for > real ??? If you relate your questions back to the *human* experience > (to date) and then put yourself in their (alien) shoes...are you still > at all surprised ? I suggest that at this point in time the one who > wants to make contact is *you*..... You're both missing a golden opportunity for novel exo-anthropological research. Just think how much we can learn about the civilization, habits, and philosophy of an alien civilization which travels vast distances just to shove implants up some bozo's nose and ear and to flatten some poor farmer's crops. Myself, I think they are the galactic version of juvenile delinquents. Does anyone here remember a movie (starring Jerry Lewis, I think) called "Visitor to a Small Planet?" Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!cherokee!teton!joe From: joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: <1991Sep25.155759.27126@cherokee.uswest.com> Date: 25 Sep 91 15:57:59 GMT References: <91268.065446DOCTORJ@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> Sender: news@cherokee.uswest.com (Telegraph Row) Organization: U S WEST Advanced Technologies Lines: 74 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15451 alt.alien.visitors:2154 Nntp-Posting-Host: teton.uswest.com Gerry Roston's Responses so far have been: >Yea, look how long it has taken us to incorporate computers into out >day-to-day lives. All of 10 years, maybe? Your point is entirely >wrong. We incorporate technology at such a high rate that within mere >yeras prroducts go from research ideas to home appliances. No, as we all know the first computer was produced in the 1950's, over 30 years ago. >The American Indian culture was extrememly retarded compared to the >European culture. They had not even advanced into the Bronze Age, >farming and domestcation of animals was unknown, few towns had >eveolved, etc. No, as we all know you cannot consider a culture "retarded", just because they are not technically advanced and/or have different values/customs. >We knew exactly what would happen when the bomb was dropped because we >had previously dropped on at Los Alamos. No, we all know that the US didn't drop a bomb at Los Alamos, it was 200 miles away from there (White Sands I believe). Also there were many theories of what would happen, one of which was spontaneous combustion of the earth's atmosphere. Now he writes: >Joe, >You are quite naive. Why should the American Indian have developed >any technology at all in a period of a few hundred years, when it took >the rest of the civilizations thousands? Since the Indians (I am >talking about the Western Indians) were primarily nomadic, they would >have NEVER developed any technology at all. >Gerry Roston (gerry@cs.cmu.edu) | II - A well regulated Militia, being >Field Robotics Center, | necessary to the security of a free State, >Carnegie Mellon University | the right of the people to keep and bear >Pittsburgh, PA, 15213 | Arms, shall not be infringed. >(412) 268-6557 | You are wrong again ! Here is the definition of technology for Mr. Rostons benefit. Technology - applied science - a technical method of achieving a pratical purpose As we all know the indians did have shelter (teepee), they had to build these didn't they? We all know they had spears/arrows, they also had to build these didn't they. They also had Kiva's (sp?), they had to dig to create these didn't they (southwestern indians), and then make the roof? And the list goes on, and on... No Mr. Roston, I don't think that I am the one who is naive. You really need to take some classes at CMU, my I suggest: 1) Native American history/culture 2) History of Science 3) Anthropolgy courses 4) Vocabulary In any case, I do find your inane messages tedious and arrogant, hence I am discontinuing contributions to this thread. Besides this thread is off the subject/purpose of this news group anyway. Joe Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!usc!apple!fernwood!cronos!zinfandel!eherrera From: eherrera@zinfandel.metaphor.com (Eric Herrera) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Above Top Secret Summary: The goverment IS interested Keywords: Tabloids vs. truth, etc. Message-ID: <1354@cronos.metaphor.com> Date: 25 Sep 91 19:49:26 GMT References: <475@sgfb.ssd.ray.com> Sender: news@cronos.metaphor.com Organization: Metaphor Computer Systems, Mountain View, CA Lines: 34 In article <475@sgfb.ssd.ray.com> plw@sgfb.ssd.ray.com (Paul L. White) writes: >The literary source for my comparison of the Unsolved Mysteries version >of the Bentwater incident to the UFO literature was Tim Good's Above >Top Secret. I have noted several postings with acclaim for the book's >veracity. Perhaps I would go along with thoroughness; Good seems to >have included quite a bit of UFO lore that did not result from FOIA sources. >A casual view of the books footnotes and bibliography contain not a few >references to bastions of accurate journalism such as the National Enquirer. > [deletions] >========================================================================== >Paul White >plw@rayssdb My employer and I rarely share opinions >========================================================================== I was not vouching for the book's veracity. I have never met Timothy Good nor any of his sources. I simply said that the book was convincing. As to the significance of Good citing the National Enquirer, I think this is a good example of how official ridicule of the subject has relegated it to those pages. We all know that the Enquirer (and television shows like Unexplained Mysteries for that matter) use sensationalism to sell their products. That doesn't, however, lead us to a logical conclusion that these stories are untrue (at least not *all* of them). For example, we all heard about that Texan mother who tried to put a "hit" on a neighbor whose daughter was her daughter's rival for the local cheerleading squad. The tabloids and infotainment "news" shows jumped all over that story. But is was true. Now I don't believe that Elvis is a DEA agent (or whatever), and I don't believe everything Timothy Good says just because it's published. But I do think that Good did a good job of convincing me of this: US and other worldwide security and defense organizations have a keen interest in the UFO phenomenon, but don't want us to know that they do, or why. That's all. Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!mips!pacbell.com!iggy.GW.Vitalink.COM!widener!gvlf3.gvl.unisys.com!tredysvr!cellar!revpk From: revpk@cellar.UUCP (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: <160T98w164w@cellar.UUCP> Date: 25 Sep 91 16:54:47 GMT References: Sender: bbs@cellar.UUCP (The Cellar BBS) Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system Lines: 49 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15458 alt.alien.visitors:2156 gerry@cs.cmu.edu (Gerry Roston) writes: > In article <1991Sep20.231815.21106@cherokee.uswest.com> joe@teton ( Joe Thiel > I think a good example of this kind of shock is the American Indians. Bef > we encountered the different tribes of indians most had advanced cultures, > but were technological infants. Then we introduced guns, horses, > metal tools, etc. Their culture was almost destroyed, and they are still > recovering. Not to say that this is the source of all of their problems, > but it must have contributed greatly to them. > > The American Indian culture was extrememly retarded compared to the > European culture. They had not even advanced into the Bronze Age, > farming and domestcation of animals was unknown, few towns had > eveolved, etc. Gerry, I wuish you hadn't used that somewhat loaded word 'retarded.' Actually, among many Native American tribes, farming was established, although not on the scale and with the methods that man developed in Northern Africa and Mesopotamia. And yes, they did domesticate dogs, although they weren't adverse to using them for meat on occasion. In terms of politics, family and social structure, Native American tribes were genuinely sophisticated. > Then there are the Nukes, we dropped them on Japan without knowing for sur > what would happen during the explosion, much less after the explosion. > However this didn't stop us from doing it. > > We knew exactly what would happen when the bomb was dropped because we > had previously dropped on at Los Alamos. Correct, though in pretty horrible ways. The firestorm bombings devised by Curtis LeMay in WWII provided an ample picture of what would happen to human beings, and medical surveys performed by Americans after the bombing or Hiroshima and Nagasaki for the most part confirmed the estimates compiled prior to the actual bombing. """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Brian Siano, Delaware Valley Skeptics Rev. Philosopher-King of The First Church of the Divine Otis Redding revpk@Cellar.UUCP "Ecrasez l'enfame!" - Voltaire """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!srhqla!venus!kdq From: kdq@3D.com (Kevin D. Quitt) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: <1991Sep25.205724.15530@3D.com> Date: 25 Sep 91 20:57:24 GMT References: <1991Sep23.203723.17677@cherokee.uswest.com> <1991Sep24.060836.14778@cco.caltech.edu> <1991Sep24.150432.18592@cherokee.uswest.com> Organization: 3D systems, inc. Valencia CA Lines: 17 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15460 alt.alien.visitors:2157 In article <1991Sep24.150432.18592@cherokee.uswest.com> joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) writes: >One of the earliest forms of storage medium for computers were card >readers/writers. Yet today, many universities and corporations are finally >retiring them (within the last 1-5 years). Why did it take so long with all >the relatively advanced storage mediums and computers of today? Because to eliminate technology while it still serves its initial purpose, simply because that technology is not state-of-the-art is stupid. -- _ Kevin D. Quitt srhqla!venus!kdq kdq%venus@sr.com 3D systems, inc. 26081 Avenue Hall Valencia, CA 91355 VOICE (805) 295-5600 x430 FAX (805) 257-1200 96.37% of all statistics are made up. Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!uwm.edu!convex.csd.uwm.edu!anthony From: anthony@convex.csd.uwm.edu (Anthony J Stieber) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: <1991Sep25.233622.4430@uwm.edu> Date: 25 Sep 91 23:36:22 GMT References: <1991Sep20.231815.21106@cherokee.uswest.com> Sender: news@uwm.edu (USENET News System) Followup-To: alt.flame Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee Lines: 27 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15468 alt.alien.visitors:2158 In article gerry@cs.cmu.edu (Gerry Roston) writes: [...] >Yea, look how long it has taken us to incorporate computers into out >day-to-day lives. All of 10 years, maybe? Your point is entirely >wrong. We incorporate technology at such a high rate that within mere >yeras prroducts go from research ideas to home appliances. Most of the people I deal with (mechanical and electrical engineers) can't cope with computers without some help in their day to day lives. The president of the United States doesn't know how to use a computer or to set the clock on his VCR. >The American Indian culture was extrememly retarded compared to the >European culture. They had not even advanced into the Bronze Age, >farming and domestcation of animals was unknown, few towns had >eveolved, etc. Farming and domestication of animals was quite common among the various American Indian cultures. I don't know what particular culture you are thinking of, but most had domesticated dogs and later, horses. Some cultures simply didn't farm as they were nomadic herders or hunters. The American Indian cultures covered both continents of the Americas. Some of them built great cities (not just towns). Some people would find your use of the word "retarded" quite offensive. -- <-:(= Anthony Stieber anthony@csd4.csd.uwm.edu uwm!uwmcsd4!anthony Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!think.com!spdcc!dirtydog.ima.isc.com!ism.isc.com!gary From: gary@ism.isc.com (Gary Swift) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.native Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: <1991Sep25.234743.24587@ism.isc.com> Date: 25 Sep 91 23:47:43 GMT References: <91268.065446DOCTORJ@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> <1991Sep25.155759.27126@cherokee.uswest.com> Sender: usenet@ism.isc.com (Ism Usenet News) Organization: Interactive Systems Corporation, Santa Monica, CA Lines: 37 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15470 alt.alien.visitors:2159 alt.native:531 In article <1991Sep25.155759.27126@cherokee.uswest.com> joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) writes: > >Gerry Roston's Responses so far have been: > >>The American Indian culture was extrememly retarded compared to the >>European culture. They had not even advanced into the Bronze Age, >>farming and domestcation of animals was unknown, few towns had >>eveolved, etc. This betrays a considerable amount of ignorance (if not racism) with respect to the native north Americans. The fact is that many pre-Columbian N. American farming techniques were superior to those of the Europeans, including the use of sophisticated irrigation systems and fertilizer; the Anasazi had domesticated animals; and not only did some Indian cultures build towns, they constructed elaborate road systems between them. >Now he writes: > >>Joe, >>You are quite naive. Why should the American Indian have developed >>any technology at all in a period of a few hundred years, when it took This is a quite narrow view of technology. >>the rest of the civilizations thousands? Since the Indians (I am >>talking about the Western Indians) were primarily nomadic, they would >>have NEVER developed any technology at all. Some Indians became nomadic *after* the introduction of horses via the invading Europeans. Also some in the southwest adopted nomadic lifestyles only after local resources (like wood) were depleted and/or climate changes forced them to leave areas they had settled and farmed. Gary Swift, INTERACTIVE Systems Corp., Santa Monica, Ca., (213) 453 8649 internet: gary@ism.isc.com Path: ns-mx!uunet!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!torsqnt!geac!maccs!physun!bunker From: bunker@physun.physics.mcmaster.ca (Alex Bunker) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: <1991Sep24.120648.6497@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca> Date: 24 Sep 91 15:54:07 GMT References: <1991Sep20.231815.21106@cherokee.uswest.com> <1991Sep21.124045.24695@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca> <1991Sep23.115225.1264@runx.oz.au> Organization: Dept. of Physics, McMaster Univ., Hamilton, Ontario, CANADA Lines: 65 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15472 alt.alien.visitors:2160 In article <1991Sep23.115225.1264@runx.oz.au> jason@runx.oz.au (Jason Haines) writes: >In article <1991Sep21.124045.24695@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca> bunker@physun.physics.mcmaster.ca (Alex Bunker) writes: >>Aliens would probably find us however quite boring. The dominant activity of >>the human race is tribal warfare and we are still plagued with such >>ignorance pestilences as religious faith and nationalism. When there is no >>more dogma faith or bizarre feelings of belongings to arbitrary subgroups of >>humanity and we have a culturally mixed skeptical society with a moral fabric >>based on reason and compassion alone and the dominant activities of the >>human race are scientific searching and artistic creativity THEN the aliens >>will have something to talk to us about. unfortunately sci.skeptic and >>alt.atheism types are still outnumbered by silly UFO and PSI fairytalers >>mentally confined faith adherers and pathetic flag waving tribalistic >>patriots. >> >>ALEX BUNKER > >* tribal warfare is likely a problem elsewhere. It is natural for peoples >to conflict, and war is one avenue employed to address differences. While >I do not condone war, even the most advanced cultures sometimes resort to >physical assertion to the extreme. Here I see you can not see the forest for the trees. You seem stuck in your own tribalistic mindset. You seem unable to imagine a society where there is an in without an outside. Too bad. >* dogma is a necessity when there are limited resources to deal with all >those enquiring minds. Sometimes it is necessary to say "that's just the >way it is, son" NO WAY NEVER EVER will I ever accept any dogma! A government says that to me and I immediately start civil disobedience! I did not accept it from my parents as a child and I will not accept it from my university government etc.. >* The opiate of the masses... Marx really screwed plenty of minds up.. Some >people need to have faith in God, to make their everyday drudgery bearable. >You have a faith in science being the panacea of all mankind... NO! I KNOW that reason and compassionate ethics require no faith. faith in god is a ball and chain around the intellect that holds societies and peoples back form their full potential. When Marx said religeon was the opiate of the masses he was BANG ON! he jsut however had no understanding of greed and individualism and THAT screwed a lot of people up >* I agree that Nationalism has it's distinct disadvantages, Yugoslavia is a case >in point... However, Nationalism can help preserve certain unique aspects of >a culture that your new world of homogeneous society would destroy. no It would preserve it all un a peaceful intellectual mosaic >* We are all here to live our lives, try to avoid making others' lives >difficult, and to make love... with greater challenge comes improvement! I do not accept humanity in the chains of its own insecurity. > >-- >Jason Haines, aka Baron >INTERNET:jason@runxtsa.runx.oz.au UUCP: uunet!runxtsa.runx.oz.au!jason >ACSNet: jason@runxtsa.runx.oz >_______________________________________________________________________ ALEX BUNKER Path: ns-mx!uunet!iWarp.intel.com!ichips!intelhf!agora!krowell From: krowell@agora.uucp (Keith Rowell) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Request for info Keywords: Periodicals, conferences Message-ID: <1991Sep25.174936.10465@agora.uucp> Date: 25 Sep 91 17:49:36 GMT References: <1343@cronos.metaphor.com> <9+kc1jb@lynx.unm.edu> Distribution: usa Organization: Open Communications Forum Lines: 395 In article <9+kc1jb@lynx.unm.edu> christ@cie.uoregon.edu (Christian G. Smith) writes: >In article <1343@cronos.metaphor.com> eherrera@zinfandel.metaphor.com (Eric Herrera) writes: >>Would someone please be so kind as to post the names, addresses and >>telephone numbers of some reputable magazines which deal with the UFO >>phenomenon? MUFON UFO Journal MUFON 103 Oldtowne Rd. Seguin, TX 78155 $25/year International UFO Reporter J. Allen Hynek Center for UFO Studies 2457 West Peterson Avenue Chicago, IL 60659 $25/year About Timothy Good's Above Top Secret: The Worldwide UFO Cover-up: > Amen. VERY good book. Are there any others of it's caliber and if so, what >are they? > UFO Books -- The Serious Literature Compiled by Keith Rowell [Please pass this list along intact to anyone who wants a copy.] This list is a quick guide to the best of the wide range of UFO books. The literature varies from naive believers to fanatic debunkers. This list, however, features the people in the middle: the UFO researchers. They believe genuine UFOs are a mystery needing a solution. Unlike UFO researchers, the naive believers and debunkers think alike since they both believe the mystery is solved. Naive believers "know" genuine UFOs are flying saucers piloted by space beings. Debunkers "know" it is all just psychology or perhaps some as yet undiscovered physical phenomenon. However, when mainstream scholars and scientists finally accept the challenge of the UFO mystery (which they haven't for 40 years now), the naive believers will probably be closer to the truth than the debunkers. In order to join the debate about the reality of the saucers, you need to read at least half of these books. If you haven't, you haven't done the first thing that any scholar or scientist does -- a literature search and perusal (peruse means to read carefully, don't forget!). Remember, your opinion is worth no more than the depth of your understanding of a topic. The UFO, strange as it may seem to some of you, has a serious literature devoted it. Yes, it's true, this literature is definitely not scientific or scholarly in the strict sense of the word, but that is simply because enough scientists and scholars are not aware of the problem of the UFO yet. Every year, especially in the eighties and nineties, more and more scientists and scholars are turning a serious eye to the problem. This is happening despite the orchestration of negative opinion promoted over the years by the intelligence establishment of the US. Sad to say, US intelligence is part and parcel of the UFO problem. Anyone who ignores this is just plain naive. Berlitz, Charles and William L. Moore. The Roswell Incident. New York: Grosset & Dunlap, 1980. 168pp. ISBN 0-448-21199-8. The facts about the crash of a saucer in the summer of 1947 in New Mexico and how the US government covered it up. See Randle and Schmitt, too. Bowen, Charles, ed. The Humanoids. Chicago: Henry Regnery, 1969. 256pp. LC 77-126142. Good summary of the evidence compiled from material published in the British Flying Saucer Review magazine. Blum, Howard. Out There: The Government's Secret Quest for Extraterrestrials. New York: Simon and Schuster, 1990. 300pp. ISBN 0-671-66260-0. An important book since it is written by a former NY Times reporter who has written two other influential books -- one about Nazi intelligence officers brought to America illegally after WWII and the other about the Walker spy case. However, Blum's UFO book was apparently hastily done and, thus, somewhat of a disappointment in the UFO research community. Bullard, Thomas Edward. UFO Abductions: The Measure of a Mystery. Vol. 1: Comparative Study of Abduction Reports. (Bloomington, IND): Fund for UFO Research, 1987. 402pp. This study by a PhD folklorist is must reading for anyone wanting to understand the depth and breadth of the abduction enigma. Bullard concludes UFO abduction stories are much too internally consistent down to small details to be classed as traditional folklore or typical dream material. Butler, Brenda, Dot Street, and Jenny Randles. Sky Crash: A Cosmic Conspiracy. Sudbury, Great Britain: Neville Spearman, 1984. 283pp. ISBN 85435-155-8. Review and analysis of the facts in the British Bentwaters-Rendlesham RAFB case. Clark, Jerome. The UFO Encyclopedia, Volume 1: UFOs in the 1980s. Detroit, MI: Apogee Books, 1990. 234pp. ISBN 1-55888-301-0. This encyclopedia is mostly the author's tour de force, but still delivers valuable information not easily available elsewhere. Libraries should have this. Condon, Edward U. and Daniel S. Gillmor (ed.). Final Report of the Scientific Study of Unidentified Flying Objects (Conducted by the University of Colorado Under Contract to the United States Air Force). New York: Bantam Books, 1968. 965pp. After close, competent study of over 100 UFO sighting reports, 30% couldn't be identified! Read Condon's prejudiced introduction only after you have looked through the rest of the study. The National Academy of Sciences rubber-stamped Condon's recommendations that no public funds be devoted to the study of UFOs. Conroy, Ed. Report on Communion: An Independent Investigation of and Commentary on Whitley Strieber's Communion. New York: Morrow, 1989. 427pp. ISBN 0-688-08864-3. This journalist was a boyhood acquaintance of Strieber. When Strieber published Communion, Conroy decided to see if his story would hold up under an investigative journalist's scrutiny. Conroy says yes. Curran, Douglas. In Advance of the Landing: Folk Concepts of Outer Space. New York: Abbeville Press, 1985. 132pp. ISBN 0-89659-523-4. Interesting photographic presentation of UFO folklore. Deardorff, James W. Celestial Teachings: The Emergence of the True Testament of Jmmanuel (Jesus). Tigard, OR: Wild Flower Press, 1990. 323pp. ISBN 0-926524-11-9. An analysis of some of the collateral material from the extensive Billy Meier contact case. Delgado, Pat and Colin Andrews. Circular Evidence: A Detailed Investigation of the Flattened Swirled Crops Phenomenon. London: Bloomsbury, 1989. 190pp. ISBN 0-7475-0357-5. The first of the picture books about crop "circles". It's a very good presentation of the facts and their investigative methods. Some investigators believe UFOs may produce the "circles". Druffel, Ann and D. Scott Rogo. The Tujunga Canyon Contacts. Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice-Hall, 1980. 264pp. ISBN 0-13-932541-7. Good book about abduction/contact experiences. Eberhart, George M. UFOs and the Extraterrestrial Contact Movement: a bibliography. Metuchen, NJ: Scarecrow Press, 1986. 1298pp. ISBN 0-8108-1919-8. An outstanding listing of books, articles, movies, TV appearances, dissertations, conferences, etc., about UFOs and related phenomena. No library in America should be without it. Ask your public library to get a copy today!! Emenegger, Robert. UFO's: Past, Present and Future. New York: Ballantine Books, 1974. 180pp. ISBN 345-24189-4-150. Good general book. Emenegger produced a film documentary of the same name. The US government hinted that it would give him some "real" flying saucer footage for inclusion in his film. This didn't happen. Evans, Hilary and John Spencer (eds.). UFOs: 1947-1987 -- The 40-Year Search for an Explanation. London: Fortean Tomes, 1987. 384pp. ISBN 1-870021-02-9. Similar to the other book by Spencer and Evans, but more extensive. A must read for dedicated ufologists. Fawcett, Lawrence and Barry J. Greenwood. Clear Intent: The Government Coverup of the UFO Experience. Englewood Cliffs, N.J.: Prentice-Hall, 1984. 259pp. ISBN 0-13-136656-4. Very important book summarizing what ufologists know from studying the thousands of FOIA-released government UFO documents. Everything but proof of crashed flying saucers is here, and it's all from FOIA-released documents! Flammonde, Paris. UFO Exist! New York: Putnam, 1976. 406pp. ISBN 399-11538-2. Fine history of the subject from a radio producer/journalist. The book details the US government's involvement. Fowler, Raymond E. The Andreasson Affair. Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice-Hall, 1979. 239pp. ISBN 0-13-036608-0. First book about a now famous abductee, Betty Andreasson Luca. Good, Timothy. Above Top Secret: The Worldwide UFO Cover-Up. New York: William Morrow, 1988. 592pp. ISBN 0-688-07860-5. The most important book about the on-going government cover-up. Haines, Richard F., ed. UFO Phenomena and the Behavioral Scientist. Metuchen, N.J.: The Scarecrow Press, 1979. 450pp. ISBN 0-8108-1228-2. Scholarly book of papers on how eye witnesses report UFOs and what cultural factors influence UFO reports. Haines, Richard F. Advanced Aerial Devices Reported During the Korean War. Los Altos, CA: LDA Press, 1990. 75pp. ISBN 0-9618082-1-7. An important study of early military UFO sightings. Haines, Richard F. Melbourne Episode: Case Study of a Missing Pilot. Los Altos, CA: L. D. A. Press, 1987. 275pp. ISBN 0-88229-540-3. Detailed review and analysis of the Australian Valentich airplane abduction case. Haines, Richard F. Observing UFOs: An Investigative Handbook. Chicago: Nelson-Hall, 1980. 300pp. ISBN 0-88229-540-3. Exceedingly cautious scientific study of mostly night lights and daylight discs categories of UFOs. Hall, Richard. Uninvited Guests: A Documented History of UFO Sightings, Alien Encounters & Coverups. Santa Fe, NM: Aurora Press, 1988. 381pp. ISBN 0-943358-32-9. A very good summary of the whole field of ufology. Highly recommended as a place to start. Hendry, Allan. The UFO Handbook: A Guide to Investigating, Evaluating, and Reporting UFO Sightings. Garden City, NY: Doubleday (Dolphin), 1979. 297pp. ISBN 0-385-14348-6. The best study of the subject. About 1300 UFO reports, all happening within the year of the study's duration, are dissected. 8.6% fall into the genuine UFOs category, that is, flying saucers, whatever they are! Hopkins, Budd. Intruders: The Incredible Visitations at Copley Woods. New York: Random House, 1987. 223pp. ISBN 0-394-56076-0. Hopkins' second book. He says it is likely that aliens are mixing our genes with theirs, and this is a major purpose of the abductions. Hopkins, Budd. Missing Time: A Documented Study of UFO Abductions. New York: Richard Marek, 1981. 258pp. ISBN 0-399-90102-7. Hopkins' first book about abductions. Howe, Linda Moulton. An Alien Harvest: Further Evidence Linking Animal Mutilations and Human Abductions to Alien Life Forms. Littleton, CO: Linda Moulton Howe Productions, 1989. 455pp. ISBN 0-9620570-1-0. Best book of surprisingly few considering the 25 year history of animal mutilations. Holroyd, Stuart. Alien Intelligence. New York: Everest House, 1979. 231pp. ISBN 0-89696-040-4. An excellent book by a student of the paranormal that compares the different kinds of intelligence, including ET intelligence and "disembodied" intelligence. Hynek, J. Allen, Philip J. Imbrogno, and Bob Pratt. Night Siege: The Hudson Valley UFO Sightings. New York: Ballantine Books, 1987. 208pp. ISBN 0-345-34213-5. About the early 1980s boomerang UFO flap involving thousands of sightings. Hynek, J. Allen. The UFO Experience: A Scientific Inquiry. New York: Ballantine Books, 1972. 309pp. ISBN 345-23953-9-150. The father of modern ufology writes a solid book about the subject. Jacobs, David Michael. The UFO Controversy in America. Bloomington, IN: Indiana University Press, 1975. 362pp. ISBN 0-253-19006-1. A historian's review of ufology up to the date of publication. Keyhoe, Donald E. Aliens from Space: The Real Story of Unidentified Flying Objects. Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1973. 322pp. Keyhoe says the US government has crashed saucers and alien bodies. He's probably right. The last of Keyhoe's five books about UFOs. Kinder, Gary. Light Years: An Investigation into the Extraterrestrial Experiences of Eduard Meier. New York: Atlantic Monthly Press, 1987. 265pp. ISBN 0-87113-139-0. Easy introduction to the complex Billy Meier case. The case is noted for outstanding photos and film of UFOs and extensive contact notes. Knight, David C. UFOs: A Pictorial History From Antiquity to the Present. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1979. 192pp. ISBN 0-07-035103-1. UFO photos galore. Lorenzen, Coral and Jim Lorenzen. Flying Saucer Occupants. New York: New American Library (Signet), 1967. 215pp. One of many important books by longtime UFO researchers and directors of the UFO investigative organization, APRO. Both deceased today, but not forgotten for their lasting contribution to ufology. McCambell, James M. UFOLOGY: A Major Breakthrough in the Scientific Understanding of Unidentified Flying Objects. Millbrae, CA: Celestial Arts, 1976. 184pp. ISBN 0-89087-144-2. Straightforward analysis of probable physics of UFO phenomena. Noyes, Ralph, ed. The Crop Circle Enigma: Grounding the Phenomenon in Science, Culture and Metaphysics. Bath, UK: Gateway Books, 1990. 192pp. ISBN 0-946551-66-9. More facts and speculation about the "agriglyphs". Randle, Kevin D. and Donald R. Schmitt. UFO Crash at Roswell. New York: Avon, 1991. 327pp. ISBN 0-380-76196-3. The authors don't back down. They say they have proved beyond a reasonable doubt that a flying saucer -- not a UFO -- crashed in NM in the summer of 1947. Get off your duff. Prove them wrong! Randles, Jenny. Abduction: Over 200 Documented UFO Kidnappings Investigated. London: Robert Hale, 1988. 240pp. ISBN 0-7090-3276-5. A British UFO researcher does a book about abductions. It is important for showing that abductions are not just a North (or South) American phenomenon. Randles, Jenny. The UFO Conspiracy: The First Forty Years. New York: Blanford Press, 1987. 224pp. ISBN 0-7137-1972-9. Excellent summary of the worldwide coverup of UFO information. Randles, Jenny. UFO Reality: A Critical Look at the Physical Evidence. London: Robert Hale, 1983. 248pp. ISBN 0-7090-1080-X. Very good presentation of the range of evidence for genuine UFO reality. Randles, Jenny and Peter Warrington. Science and the UFOs. Oxford, U.K.: Basil Blackwell, 1985. 215pp. ISBN 0-631-13563-4. Why the science establishment doesn't recognize and study UFOs. Ruppelt, Edward J. The Report of Unidentified Flying Objects. Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1956. 277pp. Written by a former head of the AF's Project Blue Book public relations UFO effort. "Brand New Enlarged Edition Latest, Up-to-the-minute Facts on UFO!" on dust jacket. No indication whatsoever inside the new edition that it differs from the earlier edition by the addition of three extra (debunking) chapters. Without the dust jacket you would never know there are two distinct editions of this classic UFO book. Some UFO researchers speculate that the Air Force/CIA was displeased enough with Ruppelt's pro-UFO first edition that they made him include the last three chapters in the "new edition"! Sagan, Carl and Thorton Page, eds. UFO's -- A Scientific Debate. New York: Norton, 1972. 310pp. ISBN 0-393-00739-1. Appeared shortly after the Condon Committee Report said once again that saucers don't exist so they won't be studied by science. UFO proponents, debunkers, and honest skeptics have their say here. Salisbury, Frank B. The Utah UFO Display: A Biologist's Report. Old Greenwich, CN: Devin-Adair, 1974. 286pp. ISBN 0-8159-7000-5. Straightforward recounting of UFO events in Utah 1966-1973 with some intelligent speculation about what it might mean. Saunders, David R. and R. Roger Harkins. UFOs? Yes! Where the Condon Committee Went Wrong. New York: World Publishing, 1968. 256pp. LC 68-59202. This book was written by a scientist (Saunders) fired by Condon when he leaked a confidential department memo that made it clear that the Condon UFO Study was a sham. Schwarz, Berthold E. UFO Dynamics: Psychiatric and Psychic Aspects of the UFO Syndrome. Moore Haven, FL: Rainbow Books, 1988. 560pp. ISBN 0-935834-64-8. A psychiatrist deals with the psychic components of the UFO phenomena. Scully, Frank. Behind the Flying Saucers. New York: Henry Holt, 1950. 230pp. The first book in English about UFOs. Hollywood reporter talks about crashed discs that have only become plausible to mainstream investigators again in the 1980s. Sitchin, Zecharia. The 12th Planet. New York: Avon, 1978. 436pp. ISBN 0-380-39362-X. This lay scholar/journalist presents the best documented ancient astronaut evidence in his series of books -- this being the first one. Spencer, John and Hilary Evans, eds. Phenomenon: Forty Years of Flying Saucers. New York: Avon Books, 1988. 413pp. ISBN 0-380-70654-7. Essays about ufology from prominent ufologists in America and Europe. Good for seeing that UFOs are a worldwide phenomenon. Story, Ronald, ed. The Encyclopedia of UFOs. Garden City, NY: Doubleday (Dolphin Books), 1980. 440pp. ISBN 0-385-11681-0. The best of the encyclopedic books on UFOs. Don't miss this. Get your local library to buy a copy. Strieber, Whitley. Communion: A True Story. New York: William Morrow, 1987. 299pp. ISBN 0-688-07086-8. Bestselling book by previously bestselling author. It's about his probable abductions. Vallee, Jacques. Confrontations: A Scientist's Search for Alien Contact. New York: Ballantine Books, 1990. 263pp. ISBN 0-345-36453-8. Vallee is back to presenting "hard evidence" again instead of speculation. Some Brazilian peasants were killed in apparent encounters with UFOs. Vallee, Jacques. Dimensions: A Casebook of Alien Contact. New York: Contemporary Books, 1988. 304pp. ISBN 0-8092-4586-8. The best statement of Vallee's thesis -- UFOs are a manifestation of a time immemorial alien control system. Vallee, Jacques. Messengers of Deception: UFO Contacts and Cults. Berkeley, CA: And/Or Press, 1979. 243pp. ISBN 0-915904-38-1. Vallee, Jacques. Passport to Magonia: From Folklore to Flying Saucers. Chicago: Henry Regnery, 1969. 372pp. ISBN 0-8092-8330-1. A study of the surprising parallels between fairy lore and modern accounts of UFO beings. Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!news.cs.indiana.edu!nstn.ns.ca!ac.dal.ca!ogre From: ogre@ac.dal.ca Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: mood music Message-ID: <1991Sep25.230619.1417@ac.dal.ca> Date: 26 Sep 91 02:06:19 GMT Organization: Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada Lines: 4 speaking of ufo's, everyone should listen to the pixies while on this newsgroup. fits the atmosphere, honest! o. Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Who's seen a 'Grey' ? Message-ID: Date: 25 Sep 91 17:12:19 GMT References: <3526@mccuts.uts.mcc.ac.uk> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 14 In article <3526@mccuts.uts.mcc.ac.uk> zzassgl@uts.mcc.ac.uk (Geoff Lane) writes: >Are these Grey men in any way related to the "Men in Black" that used >to be reported as following up peoples UFO reports and warning the >orginators of the reports not to talk with the media? "Grey" is the common name for the short grey aliens commonly reported by abductees. Who (or what) the Men In Black are, and who they work for, is anyone's guess. -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@amix.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!uwm.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Implants, end of world, etc. Message-ID: Date: 25 Sep 91 17:36:19 GMT References: <4657@sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 18 In article <4657@sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au> ijameson@physics.adelaide.edu.au (Iain Jameson) writes: > >Unless it is all a conspiricy by the secret US government. I suspect that the government is up to a lot of things it's not telling us about, but I can't even begin to speculate on whether the aliens are one of them. >Got to go, the greys want to go shopping. Well don't forget the strawberry ice cream! Last time that happened to me, I had to call in Delta Force to get the situation under control. -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@amix.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: Date: 25 Sep 91 17:19:17 GMT References: <47424@cup.portal.com> <1991Sep20.231815.21106@cherokee.uswest.com> <1991Sep21.124045.24695@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 20 In article <1991Sep21.124045.24695@maccs.dcss.mcmaster.ca> bunker@physun.physics.mcmaster.ca (Alex Bunker) writes: >will have something to talk to us about. unfortunately sci.skeptic and >alt.atheism types are still outnumbered by silly UFO and PSI fairytalers >mentally confined faith adherers and pathetic flag waving tribalistic >patriots. Although I tend to agree with you on some points, I would advise you to read some of Jacques Vallee's books (I just finished "Confrontations", and recommend it highly) before lumping everything that doesn't fit your current worldview into the category of "silly UFO and PSI fairytalers." Sure there's a lot of ridiculous stuff out there, but as Vallee shows, there are also a lot of highly credible reports of ships and entities that defy classification by those who would prefer to believe in flesh-and-blood ETs and nuts-and-bolts saucers or nothing at all. -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@amix.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Implants, end of world, etc. Message-ID: Date: 25 Sep 91 17:32:48 GMT References: <4657@sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 24 In article <4657@sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au> ijameson@physics.adelaide.edu.au (Iain Jameson) writes: >Has anyone else noticed that the themes that >continue to pop up on this group are also >plots for a number of sci-fi/fantasy novels >that came out about 10 years ago? Such themes go back a lot further than 10 years. Bertrand Meheust (see "Confrontations" by Jacques Vallee) has found science-fiction stories from before WW II (and sometimes before WW I) which resemble modern UFO reports. Unfortunately these do very little to discredit the phenomenon. It's possible that they point toward a complex psychological explanation for the phenomenon, except for the fact that there are cases in which the UFOs leave evidence of their existence -- including, as Vallee found, beam wounds. His theory seems to be that the UFOs and the "aliens" are part of a multidimensional reality, because there are a lot of undeniable reports of them doing things that simply don't make sense if you assume that they're ordinary living beings traveling to Earth from ordinary extrasolar planets. -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@amix.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!hp4nl!and!jos From: jos@and.nl (Jos Horsmeier) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.native Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: <1558@baby.and.nl> Date: 26 Sep 91 16:09:26 GMT References: <91268.065446DOCTORJ@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> <1991Sep25.155759.27126@cherokee.uswest.com> <1991Sep25.234743.24587@ism.isc.com> Followup-To: sci.skeptic Organization: AND Software BV Rotterdam Lines: 40 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15501 alt.alien.visitors:2167 alt.native:532 In article <1991Sep25.234743.24587@ism.isc.com> gary@ism.isc.com (Gary Swift) writes: |In article <1991Sep25.155759.27126@cherokee.uswest.com> joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) writes: |> |>Gerry Roston's Responses so far have been: |> |>>The American Indian culture was extrememly retarded compared to the |>>European culture. They had not even advanced into the Bronze Age, |>>farming and domestcation of animals was unknown, few towns had |>>eveolved, etc. | |This betrays a considerable amount of ignorance (if not racism) |with respect to the native north Americans. The fact is that |many pre-Columbian N. American farming techniques were superior |to those of the Europeans, including the use of sophisticated |irrigation systems and fertilizer; the Anasazi had domesticated |animals; and not only did some Indian cultures build towns, they |constructed elaborate road systems between them. | [ Another bunch of racist remarks and excellent responses deleted ] If Mr. Roston's definition of `civilization' and `culture' includes the phrase: `and ruins it's own habitat within a few centuries' I must agree with him. Otherwise, I don't find Indian culture `retarded'. One must actually be very clever to realise, that living in some sort of balance with your surroundings, without destroying it completely, gives you more chance to survive in a pleasant way for millennia! And our european (or american) `civilizations' (note the quotes) are not far enough evolved yet, to realise that! BTW Ever heared of the Incas, the Aztecs, the Mayas, the great old Indian civilizations (like the Vedians) where there roots of the American Indians are. We (us western civilized people) destroyed it completely. Were we jealous or something. Boy, I'd better stop, Mr. Roston's type make me puke! Calling people primitive, he should have lived in the seventeenth century! Yuch! Jos (jos@and.nl) Path: ns-mx!uunet!van-bc!ubc-cs!mprgate.mpr.ca!mprgate.mpr.ca!spani From: spani@mprgate.mpr.ca (Leonard Spani) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Uncritical thinking about the Lazar material Message-ID: <1991Sep26.224105.19400@mprgate.mpr.ca> Date: 26 Sep 91 22:41:05 GMT Sender: news@mprgate.mpr.ca Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors Organization: MPR Teltech Ltd., Burnaby, B.C., Canada Lines: 127 I have been thinking recently about the Robert Lazar material relating to the element-115 antimatter reactors that he claimed to work on at "S-4" near Groom Lake, Nevada (Dreamland?) The antimatter reactors were alleged to be the drive source for some of the alien craft studied in a secret U.S. government base. While I was tossing the information around in my head assessing it's validity, I decided to think about some of the possible implications if it *were* true. For the moment, I considered the information as valid and tried to see where it would take me. It was an exercise in uncritical thinking, and I am well aware that it doesn't prove anything. I'm not trying to sell it to anyone and I don't mind seeing it ripped to shreds, but it is *fun*, and there is always the chance that something valid could come about as a result. What I am most interested in is feedback on the ideas and any current information on the Lazar material itself. Sorry in advance for the blatantly anthropomorphic stuff. Here is some of Lazar's claims (gleaned from net postings and Timothy Good's book "Alien Liaison"): - the U.S. government possesses at least 9 different alien space craft and some 500 lb (kg?) of element-115. 225 grams of element-115 are sufficient to power a reactor. - the U.S. government has had "relations" with extraterrestrials who have cooperated at least partially in the U.S. attempt to use alien technology, either by providing it or by allowing us to keep what we recovered. - the reactors produced a gravity wave when protons were fired at element-115. The gravity wave was then amplified and used to propel the "UFO" around the universe. - one method of propulsion was to focus the gravity waves at a distant point in space and "pull" that point towards the ship together by bending space. When the gravity was turned off, space would "snap" back into position and the ship would be in the new position. A new position that may be very, very far from the original position. - Lazar claimed that ships using this drive mechanism could travel *much* faster than the speed of light. (Although technically they wouldn't actually *travel* from A to B, they would instantaneously "snap" from A to B and their effective speed (distance/time) would be many times the speed of light.) - the element-115 that all of this is supposed to be dependent on is claimed to be a naturally occurring (very heavy) element, but one that doesn't naturally occur around our particular point in the immediate universe. Wild assumptions based on (temporarily) accepting the Lazar material: (I am also temporarily accepting that there are several other intelligent civilizations in the universe. The Lazar material hints at this but doesn't explicitly state it as far as I remember.) - the speed of light is not a barrier to the effective exploration of space, it is feasible to travel across galaxies quickly and efficiently. - human scientists at Lazar's S-4 are capable of understanding the basic operations of the reactors which are based on an extension of currently known physics. - If gravity *can* be used in this way, how long from now would we discover it, perhaps 100 years (when the electromagnetic, strong, and weak forces are unified with gravity? :-) - it seems likely that a given civilization would "discover" the new physics necessary to design similar craft at a stage of development perhaps only a hundred or so years in "advance" of our own. Earlier if they were given examples to play with. - if the aliens allowed *us* to keep these craft, they probably allow other civilizations on other planets to retain and analyze similar craft. - other civilizations could even develop the technology at a point earlier in their development than us if they had the element-115 occurring naturally on their planet (imagine if our 1890's physicists had a chunk of the stuff.) The alien civilization could be traveling in space before they have developed other technologies. Yeah, but does it explain anything? Gross speculation based on wild assumptions generated by temporarily accepting highly suspect material: - maybe the little grey buggers really *don't* have a clue about proper medical procedures. They may not have progressed that far in the medical department. Maybe they thought hypnotic memory suppression was a good idea at the time. Maybe they don't mind needles up *their* noses (so why would we?) - perhaps the variety of (humanoid) alien body shapes reported over the years (fairies/gnomes as well) is the result of the huge number of different alien civilizations all traveling around the universe at the same time. (The ammonia-sucking jellyfish would presumably travel to ammonia rich planets, leaving the humanoid's to visit "humanoid-friendly" planets :-) - perhaps some of the aliens are not advanced enough to avoid crashing their saucers. - the aliens may not be advanced enough to avoid contradicting themselves. ("Pictures are forbidden" - "Hey come here, get your camera") - different groups of aliens could have very different motives, good and bad. Imagine what the CIA would do 100 years from now if we had mastered interstellar travel. Would our motives, methods, morals, ethics, and nature change that drastically in 100 years. The insignias and uniforms witnessed on UFO occupants could be their equivalent of the CIA. - maybe the observed cultural tracking of UFO shapes takes place because they are still coming out with newer, more advanced models. Maybe even borrowing from our technology (or attempting to blend in.) - with so many alien civilizations capable of flying around the universe, there could be some kind of cosmic "police force" that enforces universal laws against interfering with "primitive" cultures ala "Star Trek". Any aliens we see or contact would therefore be rebels. - SETI may not have found evidence of extraterrestrial life because the aliens have arrived several million years before their radio signals. - the *really* advanced civilizations probably *don't* get caught. I better quit before I lose all sense of reality. Hey - maybe this is how the National Enquirer comes up with their stuff :-) -- *********************************************************************** | Leonard E. Spani | //!?\\ | (disclaimer-p) | | spani@tartarus.mpr.ca | \\?!// | t | *********************************************************************** Path: ns-mx!uunet!ogicse!ucsd!dog.ee.lbl.gov!csa1.lbl.gov!jtchew From: jtchew@csa1.lbl.gov (JOSEPH T CHEW) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: <17865@dog.ee.lbl.gov> Date: 26 Sep 91 22:16:48 GMT References: <3297@anaxagoras.ils.nwu.edu> Reply-To: jtchew@csa1.lbl.gov Organization: Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory - Berkeley, CA, USA Lines: 28 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15516 alt.alien.visitors:2169 News-Software: VAX/VMS VNEWS 1.3-4 X-Local-Date: Tue, 24 Sep 91 09:06:53 PDT >> We knew exactly what would happen when the bomb was dropped because we >> had previously dropped on at Los Alamos. Here's a minor quibble not especially related to our topic of whether flying saucers exist and if so whether they give rides. I don't think all that much was known in detail about A-bomb effects after the test at Trinity Site (a good 150 miles from Los Alamos, which is still there, by the way). They knew that it would make a shock wave similar to that of several thousand tons of TNT, and that there would be plenty of neutrons and X-rays and a thermal pulse, and radioactive schmutz flying around -- and that a lot of people would get killed if you let one off over a city. The difference in effects between an air burst and a near-ground burst like the Trinity test could probably be guessed at decently. But a _great_ deal of work remained to be done in the late 40s and early 50s, in addition to much poring over the remains of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, to characterize weapons effects quantitatively and in detail. For an idea of what was known versus what was merely speculated upon in the mid- 40s, I refer you to the various Project Y histories -- especially the number of "experts" who were wrong, some low and some high, about the size of the blast. Tom Clancy, of all people, said it best: it's not magic, it's just a bigger bomb with some interesting additional effects. --Joe "Just another personal opinion from the People's Republic of Berkeley" Path: ns-mx!uunet!van-bc!ubc-cs!mprgate.mpr.ca!mprgate.mpr.ca!spani From: spani@mprgate.mpr.ca (Leonard Spani) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic Subject: Who was exposed? Message-ID: <1991Sep26.232121.20058@mprgate.mpr.ca> Date: 26 Sep 91 23:21:21 GMT Sender: news@mprgate.mpr.ca Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic Organization: MPR Teltech Ltd., Burnaby, B.C., Canada Lines: 31 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2170 sci.skeptic:15521 I have read on the net about *Ed Walters* being exposed as a (probable) fraud because someone found models of Flying Saucers just like the ones he photographed in the attic of the house he recently moved out of. I have also read on the net that *Billy Meier* has been exposed as a (probable) fraud because someone found models of Flying Saucers just like the ones he photographed in the attic of the house he recently moved out of. I would appreciate it if someone could tell me if either one (or both) of these exposures is true. It seems too much of a coincidence that the same thing could happen to both of them, but it does seem likely that the same exposure could accidentally be applied to the wrong UFO photographer(s). I just want to get my facts straight. Any evidence and additional information would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. Leonard. -- *********************************************************************** | Leonard E. Spani | //!?\\ | (disclaimer-p) | | spani@tartarus.mpr.ca | \\?!// | t | *********************************************************************** Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!seagoon.newcastle.edu.au!cc.newcastle.edu.au!ccasm From: ccasm@cc.newcastle.edu.au Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Alien Evidence, Beam Wounds, etc. Message-ID: <1991Sep27.091759.10748@cc.newcastle.edu.au> Date: 26 Sep 91 23:17:59 GMT References: <4657@sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au> Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA Lines: 12 In article , jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) writes: Stuff deleted.... >..... except for the fact that there are cases in which the UFOs > leave evidence of their existence -- including, as Vallee found, beam > wounds. BEAM WOUNDS ? Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Meier and Walters [was: Re: Bentwater,UK on Unsolved Mysteries] Message-ID: Date: 26 Sep 91 15:32:18 GMT References: <468@sgfb.ssd.ray.com> <91262.133541SML108@psuvm.psu.edu> <91264.005524SML108@psuvm.psu.edu> <1991Sep23.224058.8198@mprgate.mpr.ca> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 21 In article <1991Sep23.224058.8198@mprgate.mpr.ca> spani@mprgate.mpr.ca (Leonard Spani) writes: >I have heard that Ed Walters has been exposed because someone found >UFO models in his attic. I have also heard that it was the fellow in Europe >(Billy Mier(sp?)) who talks to Pliedians who was exposed because someone >found models in *his* attic. > >Did they both have UFO models in their respective attics? :-) Someone found a model in the attic of Ed's old house. Ed is apparently claiming that it was put there to discredit him. I never paid much attention to the Meier case, but I think the attempted explanation for the models found in his barn is that he made them *after* he took the pictures. You'll have to get the details from someone else -- and I'm sure there are a few people here who will offer them :-) -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@amix.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!mtiame!iconix!ajm From: ajm@titanic.iconix.oz.au (Andrew Mack,Iconix,x222) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic Subject: Alien names Message-ID: <1991Sep26.072018.12792@iconix.oz.au> Date: 26 Sep 91 07:20:18 GMT References: <47271@cup.portal.com> Sender: news@iconix.oz.au (USENET) Organization: Iconix Pty Ltd (World Headquarters) Lines: 13 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2173 sci.skeptic:15534 Originator: ajm@titanic Nntp-Posting-Host: titanic From article <47271@cup.portal.com>, by Don_-_Showen@cup.portal.com: > In my last trip to Phoenix for the UFO Conference I had the opportunity > to tape an couple of people named Shield and Sharula Dux. They claim to be > from a city underneath Mt. Shasta called Telos. This city has one and one >... > Telos. They do operate some of the space ships that are seen in our skies. > The overall leader of their space fleet is called Ashtar and a command of one > of their fleet called the Silver fleet is called Anton. Why do these UFO-type people and places usually have names like Telos and Ashtar? Why are they never called things like Zonko or Dorko or Klong? "Hi, I'm Donko from the planet Ning-Nong." Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!ut-emx!ibmchs!auschs!d75!awdprime!woofer.austin.ibm.com!craigb From: craigb@woofer.austin.ibm.com (Craig Becker) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: America with No European Contact (was Re: UFOs and Abductees) Message-ID: <11439@awdprime.UUCP> Date: 25 Sep 91 14:58:17 GMT References: <1991Sep24.214105.8604@watdragon.waterloo.edu> <3297@anaxagoras.ils.nwu.edu> <1991Sep24.171313.20261@cherokee.uswest.com> Sender: news@awdprime.UUCP Reply-To: craigb@ot.austin.ibm.com Followup-To: sci.skeptic Organization: IBM Object Technology Products Lines: 43 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15538 alt.alien.visitors:2174 In article <1991Sep24.214105.8604@watdragon.waterloo.edu>, jdnicoll@watyew.uwaterloo.ca (James Davis Nicoll) writes: > In article <1991Sep24.171313.20261@cherokee.uswest.com> joe@teton ( Joe Thielan #250 x5870 ) writes: ... > >greatly to their problems. If the Europeans hadn't developed the > >technology to sail the ocean and arrive in America, I think the > >American Indians would be doing pretty well right now. ... > That might have just changed who got to punt on the nomadic cultures. > The South and Central American cultures (Mayans, Inca, and Aztecs) might have > decided to expand northward, and they do appear to have had a technological > and sociological edge on many North American cultures. Granted, I really don't > think the Incas and Mayans could have gotten around the rather large roadblock > north of them, but didn't the Aztecs trade and war with cultures north of > them? > > I've always thought the Mississippi was extraordinarily well-suited > to provide a 'road' through-out the interior of North America. If we had never > exploited it thus, *someone* eventually would have set up a culture which > *did* (And probably did. How far south did the Mandans trade? Did they get > as far south as the northern Mississippi?). A very well-designed river > system, indeed :) For an interesting treatment of this idea, check out Harold Waldrop's _Roll Them Bones_. Also, Mick Farren's _Necrom_ touches briefly on an Aztec culture that developed nuclear weapons in the early 17th century and bombed the bejeezus outta Europe before they could colonize the Americas. Craig ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Craig Becker, Object Technology Products -- -- "As far back as I can remember, Internet: craigb@ot.austin.ibm.com -- -- I always wanted to be a gangster." Austin: craigb@ot.austin.ibm.com -- -- - Henry Hill VNET: CRAIGB at AUSVM1 -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- off 808/1K-020 zip 3008 ph (512) 823-1756 tl 793-1756 hm (512) 346-5397 -- -- IBM Personal Systems Programming, 11400 Burnet Road, Austin, TX, 78759 -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!samsung!nstar!caen!ldoering From: ldoering@engin.umich.edu (Laurence Doering) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Request for info Summary: Condon and the USAF study Keywords: Periodicals, conferences Message-ID: Date: 27 Sep 91 06:08:36 GMT References: <1343@cronos.metaphor.com> <9+kc1jb@lynx.unm.edu> <1991Sep25.174936.10465@agora.uucp> Distribution: usa Organization: University of Michigan Engineering, Ann Arbor Lines: 65 In article <1991Sep25.174936.10465@agora.uucp> krowell@agora.uucp (Keith Rowell) writes: >[in his bibliography of UFO literature] > >Condon, Edward U. and Daniel S. Gillmor (ed.). Final Report of >the Scientific Study of Unidentified Flying Objects (Conducted by >the University of Colorado Under Contract to the United States >Air Force). New York: Bantam Books, 1968. 965pp. After close, >competent study of over 100 UFO sighting reports, 30% couldn't be >identified! Read Condon's prejudiced introduction only after you >have looked through the rest of the study. The National Academy >of Sciences rubber-stamped Condon's recommendations that no >public funds be devoted to the study of UFOs. > (Disclaimer: I don't have a copy of this book with me, so my comments are based on my having read it several years ago.) You're correct that Condon et al. were proceeding from the initial assumption that the great majority of UFO reports could be explained as ordinary (or unusual) events that were not understood by the observers. (I assume this is what you mean when you refer to the "prejudiced" introduction.) The main point of the book is that UFOs are just that - unidentified flying objects, and that most people don't have the experience or knowledge to identify things they see in the sky. While it's true that the investigators were unable to explain around 30% of the reports, the book clearly states that the cases they were unable to assign a cause to were cases where there was little evidence (typically one or two people driving at night, reporting that they saw a bright light over the road that approached their car, causing it to stall or something.) In these cases, there was no independent confirmation, no physical evidence, etc. so the investigators concluded that they couldn't say one way or another what the witnesses had seen. The explained cases are interesting though, and say a great deal about the reliability (or lack thereof) of eyewitness testimony. Two that I remember were: The investigators found some college students who had released several balloons constructed from dry-cleaning bags and birthday candles at night. They were able to find and interview a number of people who had seen the balloons. Most reported seeing 3 or 4 flame-colored lights "traveling in formation" that moved across the sky for 10 minutes or so and then disappeared. One observer, though, reported seeing a 75-foot long transparent blimp-shaped object with a ring of lights underneath. The investigators found two pilots who had gone flying at night in a small twin-engined plane equipped with a searchlight with the intention of "scaring up some UFO reports." The pilots saw the flashlights of a party of people on the ground who were out raccoon hunting, and circled the area for a while at low altitude, playing with the searchlight. Members of the hunting party who were interviewed all agreed that a flying object had approached them, making no noise, and had blinked a light at them "as if it was trying to signal to them." Each witness had a different description of the object and the lights on it. Only one witness said the "UFO" had red, green, and white lights. There's a long chapter devoted to "anomalous propagation" and its effect on radar systems (basically atmospheric ducting and reflecting surfaces on the ground) that can cause weird things to show up on radar. There's another chapter that describes things (including a Soviet rocket booster) seen in orbit by the Gemini astronauts. Anyway, this book is an interesting look at the skeptical side of things - it shows that most people, even experienced pilots, radar operators, and astronauts, can easily misinterpret relatively ordinary phenomena. Larry Doering ldoering@caen.engin.umich.edu -or- doering@erim.org Path: ns-mx!uunet!sun-barr!apple!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen From: Don_-_Showen@cup.portal.com Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts Message-ID: <47838@cup.portal.com> Date: 27 Sep 91 05:41:56 GMT References: <46869@cup.portal.com> <47188@cup.portal.com> Organization: The Portal System (TM) Lines: 38 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15541 alt.paranormal:3180 alt.alien.visitors:2176 talk.religion.newage:6962 Brian Siano comments > Dan, I've read the transcripts you've posted, and I'm perfectly >willing to believe that they come from a higher form of intelligence. >However, I'm going to require proof. And I have a test that would be >satisfactory proof. > I'd like to ask the Pleidians if they can solve a small math problem >for me. > ... more stating the problem > If they can provide a proof, they would be providing us with >knowledge currently unknown by man... but knowledge that _can_ be verified >empirically. And I'd be surprised if a higher intelligence could lower itself >to perform symbolic logic. >Solve it, and you've got a convert. (Maybe even a Nobel.) First neither I nor them are looking for converts. Converts give their power away to their converter. So Brian, do you honestly think there is a solution to that problem? Would you be willing to believe that you come from higher intelligence? Would you let yourself prove it by accessing your higher intelligence and solving the problem if you believe there is a solution? This is the whole point of bringing all of this up. It is basically that we all can be channels of higher intelligence in whatever area we wish (intend) to. I feel that there are lots of individuals on this net that are closing their connection to higher intelligence by limiting beliefs they hold about themselves and reality. What if you proved that you were connected to infinite intelligence, first cause, prime creator and you could use that in whatever way you wanted? So Brian if you believe there is a solution why don t you pretend that the higher intelligences are in your head trying to tell you the solution. Then get very relaxed and listen very carefully and hear it or maybe sit down at your terminal and autotype it out. And if you did that you could even say you did it yourself and get your Nobel. The higher intelligences give away information freely. One other pointer, Tesla used to hyperventilate to improve his powers of visualization. He would design, build, and run a motor for a period of time, dismantel it and see where the parts were worn, all in his head. He actually acknowledged the assistance he was getting from higher intelligence. Don Showen Path: ns-mx!uunet!sun-barr!apple!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen From: Don_-_Showen@cup.portal.com Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts Message-ID: <47837@cup.portal.com> Date: 27 Sep 91 05:40:45 GMT References: <46869@cup.portal.com> <47188@cup.portal.com> Organization: The Portal System (TM) Lines: 57 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15542 alt.paranormal:3181 alt.alien.visitors:2177 talk.religion.newage:6963 Steve - Graziano comments and asks >1. How do Alien beings from another world (another time,place) know of >english words like "Shenanigans", "busters", and other slang terms when it >usually takes several years for a foreign person to just 'grasp' the language >much less learn the 'slang' terms for it? (I don't think just using Barbara's >mind to do 'automatic' translations could do it, but I am open to any >explanations. They do seem to perceive a lot through Barbra's perceptions and mind and the minds whose energy they read. They also mentioned they wanted Barbara to learn some math mainly in the area of geometry as they have often mentioned the language of light or sacred geometry. And I suspect that if Barbara would learn some geometry that they could go into more detail. I worked with another channel who could bring through entities of choice. She brought through Tesla and Einstein, they both commented that she ( the channel) would have to learn some technical vocabulary before they could go into the juicy technical stuff. Now this is one of my personal motives for putting all of this on the net. Instead of teaching a none technical person technical stuff, why not encourage technical people to channel. >2. On a more curious level, the transcripts talk about dracos, lizzies, etc. >Is there anything that elaborates on this? By anything that elaborates on this, I am not sure whether you mean from the Pleiadians or else where. Unfortunately most of the UFO information is on these areas. What I call the negative aspects of alien intelligence. There are lots of hair raising stories about the dracos, lizzies, greys, etc. Lots of those at the talk that the transcript came from were friends of mine, we are into understanding the whole picture. The lizzies are short for reptilians. There is a reptilian portion of our brain stem (primal brain). The reptiles think they own the planet, I think it is because they were here as dinosaurs for so long. Anyway it is fairly common knowledge that we are being prepared as a culture to be introduced to the lizzies. That is part of the purpose of the series V, the Ninja turtles, a lot of cartoons, movies, etc. It is said the the lizzies and/or greys have had treaties with governments and that soon they will make themselves known, openly. One reason for the govt. cover up of ufos is that part of the treaty is that the govt. will not expose them. There is much ufo literature on the lizzies, dracos, greys. I guess the most important point is that they are highly intelligent with no feeling center. And they thrive on the emotion of fear, it is actually a food for them. So being afraid of lizzies is actually feeding them. They are said to be behind religion, thus the term the fear of god , ie religions were created so humans would resonate in fear to provide food for their god. Not all lizzies are bad in fact the Pleiadians mentioned there were three in non physical form at one of their evenings on the tapes. They were attending to learn about us humans. They even mention that we have a multidimensional aspect of ourselves that is lizzie and we will have to come to gripes with as we go for full enlightenment and integration. There is lots of folklore about lizzies like the snake that tempted eve. The Pleiadians do not use the term good and bad, they instead refer to the white shirts and the black shirts. They further say that earth was created to be a galactic information exchange for all life. So maybe the bar scene in Star Wars is really how our planet will be in the future. We thought we had interracial problems, just wait to see what kind of interspecie problems we are going to have. Don Showen Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!udel!haven.umd.edu!umd5!cs.jhu.edu!arromdee From: arromdee@cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts Message-ID: <50038@cs.jhu.edu> Date: 27 Sep 91 13:20:48 GMT References: <47838@cup.portal.com> Reply-To: arromdee@cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) Organization: Johns Hopkins University CS Dept. Lines: 41 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15548 alt.paranormal:3182 alt.alien.visitors:2178 In article <47838@cup.portal.com> Don_-_Showen@cup.portal.com writes: >> I'd like to ask the Pleidians if they can solve a small math problem >>for me. >First neither I nor them are looking for converts. Converts give their power >away to their converter. So Brian, do you honestly think there is a solution >to that problem? Mathematicians are certainly trying to find one. >So Brian if you believe there is a solution why >don t you pretend that the higher intelligences are in your head trying to >tell you the solution. Then get very relaxed and listen very carefully and >hear it or maybe sit down at your terminal and autotype it out. And if you >did that you could even say you did it yourself and get your Nobel. Because there is a difference between a math problem like Fermat's Last Theorem and the type of information you claim the Pleiadeans give. If I only believe I am channelling an entity but it's not really there, I can still talk about lizards, give the names of the nonexistent entities, and lots of other things. I can pick at vague thoughts that seem to come from aliens, and "realize" what they "mean" when in fact everything is coming from my own mind. But I _can't_ do this if it's a math problem. You can't give a solution to such a problem without actually being able to solve it. If I just thought I was channeling aliens and everything really came from my own head, I'd be able to tell you as much as I wanted about the aliens and their plans, while the "aliens" couldn't solve math problems. I think most people, even on alt.paranormal, don't believe in your Pleideans. But this is important other times: whenever there's some paranormal event where some effects can be attributed to just people and some can't, it seems only the former effects happen. Yeah, it's always _possible_ that the effects you are unwilling/unable to create just _happen_ to be the same events that you can't get in a non-paranormal way, but you can't really blame me for being skeptical.... -- "Halvah? What kind of fish is that?" --grocer, to my grandfather, many years ago.... Kenneth Arromdee (UUCP: ....!jhunix!arromdee; BITNET: arromdee@jhuvm; INTERNET: arromdee@cs.jhu.edu) Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!news.cs.indiana.edu!lynx!triton.unm.edu!cfaehl From: cfaehl@triton.unm.edu (Chris Faehl CIRT) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: Date: 27 Sep 91 14:27:34 GMT References: <1991Sep20.231815.21106@cherokee.uswest.com> Organization: University of New Mexico, Albuquerque Lines: 16 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15550 alt.alien.visitors:2179 In article gerry@cs.cmu.edu (Gerry Roston) writes: >We knew exactly what would happen when the bomb was dropped because we >had previously dropped on at Los Alamos. ^^^^^^^^^^ Whoa. Halt. Back-up. Erase. Nuclear Weapons were never dropped upon Los Alamos, although they were developed there. Further, even at Trinity Site, they were never 'dropped'. FYI, Los Alamos is perhaps 12-15 miles straight line distance from Santa Fe, and 45-55 miles straight line from Albuquerque. Now, if *you* were trying to develop a nuclear device in complete secrecy, would *you* want to light up the skies like that? Sorry, this didn't really have anything to do with anything. It's just it's so easy to get Anal Retentive on Usenet... CF Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!lanl!cochiti.lanl.gov!jlg From: jlg@cochiti.lanl.gov (Jim Giles) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: <1991Sep27.170601.4319@beta.lanl.gov> Date: 27 Sep 91 17:06:01 GMT References: <1991Sep20.231815.21106@cherokee.uswest.com> Sender: news@beta.lanl.gov (Usenet News) Organization: Los Alamos National Laboratory Lines: 18 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15563 alt.alien.visitors:2180 In article , cfaehl@triton.unm.edu (Chris Faehl CIRT) writes: |> [...] |> Nuclear Weapons were never dropped upon Los Alamos, [...] Or ... _were_ they? :-) (Swelling of Twilight Zone music ... fade to black.) |> [...] Further, even at Trinity Site, they were never 'dropped'. |> FYI, Los Alamos is perhaps 12-15 miles straight line distance from Santa Fe, |> and 45-55 miles straight line from Albuquerque. Now, if *you* were trying to |> develop a nuclear device in complete secrecy, would *you* want to light up |> the skies like that? Actually, a lot of people saw the Trinity test from Albuquerque. Both my mom and my grandfather were awakened by the flash. The southern horizon remained illuminated for a few minutes. The government gave out some story about an accidental explosion at an ammunition dump. J. Giles Path: ns-mx!uunet!iWarp.intel.com!ichips!intelhf!agora!krowell From: krowell@agora.uucp (Keith Rowell) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Request for info Keywords: Periodicals, conferences Message-ID: <1991Sep27.192442.17085@agora.uucp> Date: 27 Sep 91 19:24:42 GMT References: <9+kc1jb@lynx.unm.edu> <1991Sep25.174936.10465@agora.uucp> Distribution: usa Organization: Open Communications Forum Lines: 139 In article ldoering@engin.umich.edu (Laurence Doering) writes: >In article <1991Sep25.174936.10465@agora.uucp> krowell@agora.uucp (Keith Rowell) writes: >>[in his bibliography of UFO literature] >> >>Condon, Edward U. and Daniel S. Gillmor (ed.). Final Report of >>the Scientific Study of Unidentified Flying Objects (Conducted by >>the University of Colorado Under Contract to the United States >>Air Force). New York: Bantam Books, 1968. 965pp. After close, >>competent study of over 100 UFO sighting reports, 30% couldn't be >>identified! Read Condon's prejudiced introduction only after you >>have looked through the rest of the study. The National Academy >>of Sciences rubber-stamped Condon's recommendations that no >>public funds be devoted to the study of UFOs. >> >(Disclaimer: I don't have a copy of this book with me, so my comments >are based on my having read it several years ago.) > >You're correct that Condon et al. were proceeding from the initial >assumption that the great majority of UFO reports could be explained >as ordinary (or unusual) events that were not understood by the observers. >(I assume this is what you mean when you refer to the "prejudiced" >introduction.) No, Condon's "Conclusions and Recommendations" and "Summary of the Study" don't accurately reflect the contents of the study. The reason for this is that Condon was grossly prejudiced against giving the UFO a fair and complete examination. See the book by David Saunders for documentation of this. A letter to the editor of the pro-UFO International UFO Reporter of the Center for UFO Studies by Dr. Thornton Page documents further prejudice against honest treatment of the UFO by Condon. Page is *not* a pro-UFO scientist or researcher. He said, "I have just read Richard Sigismond's 'Confrontation with Dr. Condon' in the Sept.-Oct. issue of the International UFO Reporter. I would like to submit the following addendum: two more confrontations. Like Condon, I started with the conviction that UFOs were 'nonsense' when I served on the CIA Robertson Committee in 1953. But after that I came to see that a small fraction of UFO reports were very difficult to explain. At Wesleyan University in Connecticut, I offered a course on UFOs which attracted many undergraduates, and taught them some astronomy. Then, in 1968, Carl Sagan and I organized the AAAS Symposium on UFOs to be held in Boston December, 1969. Condon did everything he could to prevent this meeting... Somewhat later, I was asked to write the article on UFOs for the Encyclopedia Britannica. After preparing a draft, I phoned Condon to check whether I had fully covered the data collected by his committee. This was the final confrontation. He shouted at me that he should write the article; then there was a bang, and silence...." >The main point of the book is that UFOs are just that - >unidentified flying objects, and that most people don't have the experience >or knowledge to identify things they see in the sky. This conclusion was well known at the time by UFO "enthusiasts" and the few scientists like James McDonald who decided to risk their reputations by vociferously advocating a serious, longterm look at the UFO problem. The fuss is all about the 5 to 10 percent of very difficult to identify sightings as Thorton Page (quoted above) realized. Allan Hendry's book, published ten years later, amply documents the fact that there has always been a stubborn 5 to 10 percent of UFO reports that could not be identified *even though there was plenty of high quality data.* Stanton Friedman constantly tries to make the point that the better the data, the more the 5 to 10 percent remains unknown. It's very curious the Colorado team ended up with a whopping 30% unexplained; perhaps it was due to their lack of experience. A quote from Dr. Peter Sturrock's evaluation may explain why. From SUIPR Report No. 599 (Stanford University Institute for Plasma Research) "Evaluation of the Condon Report on the Colorado UFO Project" October 1974: From the Abstract: "The 'Condon Report', presenting the findings of the Colorado Project on a scientific study of unidentified flying objects, has been the most influential document concerning the scientific status of this problem. The present evaluation of this Report contains an overview, an analysis of evidence by categories, and a discussion of scientific methodology. The overview shows that most case studies were conducted by junior staff; the senior staff took little part and the Director took no part in these investigations. The analysis of evidence by categories shows that there are substantial and significant differences between the findings of the Project staff and those which the Director attributes to the Project. Although both the Director and the staff are cautious in stating conclusions, the staff tend to emphasize challenging cases and unanswered questions, whereas the Director emphasizes the difficulty of further study and the probability that there is no scientific knowledge to be reaped...." >While it's true that the investigators were unable to explain around 30% >of the reports, the book clearly states that the cases they were unable >to assign a cause to were cases where there was little evidence (typically >one or two people driving at night, reporting that they saw a bright light >over the road that approached their car, causing it to stall or something.) >In these cases, there was no independent confirmation, no physical evidence, >etc. so the investigators concluded that they couldn't say one way or another >what the witnesses had seen. I found some mention of this alleged lack of good data as a reason for the unexplained reports in Condon's Summary of the Study in the section titled Explaining UFO Reports, but I couldn't find this conclusion elsewhere. Might you remember where? >The explained cases are interesting though, and say a great deal about >the reliability (or lack thereof) of eyewitness testimony. Let me emphasize once again that UFO "believer" investigator/researchers fully acknowledge that people are wrong about seeing true UFOs or flying saucers 90% of the time. (In a true UFO, the person reserves judgment -- many people do this -- and don't "leap to the conclusion" that they saw a flying saucer; they just leave it as simply an UNindentified object. Other folks go ahead and say to themselves, "Well, I must have seen a flying saucer since it fit my idea (that I got from popular culture) of what a flying saucer is supposed to look like and behave like.) Let me reiterate, PEOPLE ARE MISTAKEN 90 PERCENT OF THE TIME ABOUT SEEING TRUE UFOS. What they actually have seen is an IFO, which is discovered by close, competent investigation by UFO investigators like me. (A fellow MUFON investigator here in Oregon recently established beyond a reasonable doubt that a photographic UFO hoax was perpetrated on an unsuspecting Dalles, OR, newspaper editor. Incidentally, hoaxes are the explanation for less than 1% of all UFO reports.) >Anyway, this book is an interesting look at the skeptical side of things - >it shows that most people, even experienced pilots, radar operators, and >astronauts, can easily misinterpret relatively ordinary phenomena. Don't get carried away with the idea that debunkers like Phil Klass, the deceased Donald Menzel, and Robert Sheaffer would like you to believe that our sensory apparatus becomes grossly unreliable when transient phenomena are being observed. Genuine or true UFOs (see Allan Hendry's study for a definition of these) are experienced on average for greater than 1 minute NOT less than 20 or 30 seconds. Actually, Hendry's study of 1307 UFO reports showed that the peak of his genuine UFOs was between 3 and 10 minutes duration. The problem with the study of the UFO evidence is political; it does not lie with the nature of the evidence itself. That the evidence is especially difficult to interpret is a great UNtruth that debunkers affiliated with CSICOP and some academicians (Carl Sagan), mainstream newspaper editors (at the NY Times), and TV producers (at the major networks) would like you to believe. Please note that the study I quoted, the letter I quoted, and Hendry's book are all somewhat difficult to obtain. The opinions, studies, etc., of the poeple who spend the most time looking at the UFO are routinely ignored in the mainstream media -- except for Unsolved Mysteries, and the tabloid TV shows at the moment. Getting the word out is the problem -- not lack of evidence or any special difficulties in interpreting the evidence. Path: ns-mx!uunet!stanford.edu!agate!typhoon.Berkeley.EDU!sfd From: sfd@typhoon.Berkeley.EDU (Scott Drellishak) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts Message-ID: <1991Sep28.032426.10086@agate.berkeley.edu> Date: 28 Sep 91 03:24:26 GMT References: <46869@cup.portal.com> <47188@cup.portal.com> <47838@cup.portal.com> Sender: usenet@agate.berkeley.edu (USENET Administrator) Organization: ucb Lines: 88 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15590 alt.paranormal:3184 alt.alien.visitors:2182 talk.religion.newage:6977 In article <47838@cup.portal.com> Don_-_Showen@cup.portal.com writes: >Brian Siano comments > >> Dan, I've read the transcripts you've posted, and I'm perfectly >>willing to believe that they come from a higher form of intelligence. >>However, I'm going to require proof. And I have a test that would be >>satisfactory proof. >> I'd like to ask the Pleidians if they can solve a small math problem >>for me. >> ... more stating the problem Which "problem" was Fermat's Conjecture, a famous unproved theorem in mathematics, which Don apparently didn't recognize. Brian isn't asking you to do his homework here, Don, he's asking you to provide proof that the Pleiadians know something we don't. >> If they can provide a proof, they would be providing us with >>knowledge currently unknown by man... but knowledge that _can_ be verified >>empirically. And I'd be surprised if a higher intelligence could lower >>itself to perform symbolic logic. >>Solve it, and you've got a convert. (Maybe even a Nobel.) > >First neither I nor them are looking for converts. Converts give their power >away to their converter. No, actually a convert is someone who changes his/her mind. Brian, being open-minded, was willing to accept the existence of these Pleiadians if they could provide proof that they were, in fact inhabiting the body of a human. Surely such advanced beings did not reach their pinnacle of knowledge by listening to everyone. They admit (I've read the transcripts all the way through -- scary thought, huh?) that there are evil forces in the world, so obviously some statements are lies. Suppose the beings that claim to be our benefactors are in fact lying? Suppose the woman who claims to be channelling them is lying? Clearly, we must resolve these doubts. Brian's challenge should be childishly simple for the Pleiadians to meet ... and yet they don't. I wonder why? > So Brian, do you honestly think there is a solution >to that problem? Would you be willing to believe that you come from higher >intelligence? Would you let yourself prove it by accessing your higher >intelligence and solving the problem if you believe there is a solution? This >is the whole point of bringing all of this up. It is basically that we all >can be channels of higher intelligence in whatever area we wish (intend) to. I >feel that there are lots of individuals on this net that are closing their >connection to higher intelligence by limiting beliefs they hold about >themselves and reality. What if you proved that you were connected to >infinite intelligence, first cause, prime creator and you could use that in >whatever way you wanted? So Brian if you believe there is a solution why >don t you pretend that the higher intelligences are in your head trying to >tell you the solution. Then get very relaxed and listen very carefully and >hear it or maybe sit down at your terminal and autotype it out. And if you >did that you could even say you did it yourself and get your Nobel. The >higher intelligences give away information freely. I just relaxed and tried to listen to the "higher" intelligences, but I heard nothing. What does this mean, Don? Did I not listen carefully enough? Clearly, I'm not skilled in this matter. Don, would you do all of us who are interested in furthering humanity's knowledge and improving out lives try it for us? Since you are more experienced in listening to voices in your head, I assume that you can produce the proof that Brian requested. Thank you. > One other pointer, Tesla >used to hyperventilate to improve his powers of visualization. He would >design, build, and run a motor for a period of time, dismantel it and see >where the parts were worn, all in his head. He actually acknowledged the >assistance he was getting from higher intelligence. > >Don Showen [FLAMES] When I'm reading the Pleiadian Transcripts, or Don's postings, I like to do this, and you can do it with me. Clench your teeth (not too tightly) and open your mouth. Between your thumb and forefinger (pinching horizontally), grab the flesh of your cheek about halfway between the corner of your mouth and the muscle which closes your jaw. Now, with a frequecy of about 5 Hertz, pull the flesh of your cheek away from your teeth, and push it back. This is the sound of a bonehead newage-rhymes-with-sewage dupe engaging in intellectual masturbation. Thank you for your attention. Flames by email, please. Scott Drellishak, SFOP Path: ns-mx!uunet!ulowell!m2c!wpi.WPI.EDU!drwho From: drwho@wpi.WPI.EDU (Eric Ant Von Laudermann) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts Message-ID: <1991Sep28.050155.29763@wpi.WPI.EDU> Date: 28 Sep 91 05:01:55 GMT References: <46869@cup.portal.com> <47188@cup.portal.com> <47837@cup.portal.com> Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute Lines: 29 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15598 alt.paranormal:3185 alt.alien.visitors:2183 talk.religion.newage:6978 I wasn't going to touch this topic with a ten foot pole, but... In article <47837@cup.portal.com> Don_-_Showen@cup.portal.com writes: >Steve - Graziano comments and asks > >>2. On a more curious level, the transcripts talk about dracos, lizzies, etc. >>Is there anything that elaborates on this? > >There is a reptilian portion of our brain stem (primal brain). NNNNnnnnnooooo..... I thought we were mammals. Or does being a "reptile" imply something besides being cold-blooded and laying eggs? >Anyway it is fairly common knowledge that we are being >prepared as a culture to be introduced to the lizzies. First I've heard of it. >That is part of the >purpose of the series V, the Ninja turtles, a lot of cartoons, movies, etc. The purpose of Ninja Turtles is that two starving artists sat around doodling one night, and ended up with a parody of "grim-n-gritty" comic books, with an intentionally stupid-sounding title. The purpose of V was to make money. --E.V.L. (drwho@wpi.wpi.edu) # "At last! The Pen of the Gods is mine! Disclaimer: "It's all absolutely # I have the power of the printed word, the devastatingly true, except the bits # most powerful force in the Universe, that are lies." --Douglas Adams # in my grasp! NOTHING CAN STOP ME NOW!!! # Uh, anybody got a piece of paper?" Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!gvlf3.gvl.unisys.com!tredysvr!cellar!revpk From: revpk@cellar.UUCP (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: Who was exposed? Message-ID: Date: 28 Sep 91 01:53:16 GMT References: <1991Sep26.232121.20058@mprgate.mpr.ca> Sender: bbs@cellar.UUCP (The Cellar BBS) Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system Lines: 32 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2184 sci.skeptic:15599 spani@mprgate.mpr.ca (Leonard Spani) writes: > > I have read on the net about *Ed Walters* being exposed as a (probable) > fraud because someone found models of Flying Saucers just like the ones > he photographed in the attic of the house he recently moved out of. > > I have also read on the net that *Billy Meier* has been exposed as a > (probable) fraud because someone found models of Flying Saucers just like > the ones he photographed in the attic of the house he recently moved out of. > > I would appreciate it if someone could tell me if either one (or both) of > these exposures is true. It seems too much of a coincidence that the same > thing could happen to both of them, but it does seem likely that the same > exposure could accidentally be applied to the wrong UFO photographer(s). > > I just want to get my facts straight. Any evidence and additional information > would be greatly appreciated. > > > Thanks in advance. > > > Leonard. It happened to Ed Walters. """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Brian Siano, Delaware Valley Skeptics Rev. Philosopher-King of The First Church of the Divine Otis Redding revpk@Cellar.UUCP "Ecrasez l'enfame!" - Voltaire """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!gvlf3.gvl.unisys.com!tredysvr!cellar!revpk From: revpk@cellar.UUCP (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts Message-ID: Date: 28 Sep 91 02:06:22 GMT References: <47838@cup.portal.com> Sender: bbs@cellar.UUCP (The Cellar BBS) Organization: The Cellar BBS and public access system Lines: 45 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15600 alt.paranormal:3186 alt.alien.visitors:2185 talk.religion.newage:6979 Don_-_Showen@cup.portal.com writes: > First neither I nor them are looking for converts. Converts give their power > away to their converter. So Brian, do you honestly think there is a solution > to that problem? Would you be willing to believe that you come from higher > intelligence? Would you let yourself prove it by accessing your higher > intelligence and solving the problem if you believe there is a solution? Thi > is the whole point of bringing all of this up. It is basically that we all blah, blah blah, blah blah blah, blah, blah, blah, blah blah blah > So Brian if you believe there is a solution why > don t you pretend that the higher intelligences are in your head trying to > tell you the solution. Then get very relaxed and listen very carefully and > hear it or maybe sit down at your terminal and autotype it out. And if you > did that you could even say you did it yourself and get your Nobel. The > higher intelligences give away information freely. Don, you're avoiding my question. First of all, you posted that Pleiaidian stuff for the express purpose of cinvincingsome of us that these 'higher intelligences' are out there, and your friend is in contact with them. Regardless of your reply, yes, 'converts' are more or less what you want. After all, you wouldn't have posted the material. All I want is proof. Why should I expend my time and energy before I get a good reason to do so? Your friend claimed to be in contact with higher intelligences-- before I make _any_ commitments, I'd like to see some proof that your friend is genuine. (Either he's genuine, or deranged.) The problem may or may not be solvable. All I want is either a solution, or a lagically supported reason why it's not solvable. Until I get that, the 'Plieaidian transcripts' are about as useful as line noise. So, whaddya say? Why don't you do the autotyping and convince me, if it's so simple? One good logical proof. (And saying "It's notsolable because our logic/philosophy/science/minds are too limited" is a cop-out. So there.) """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Brian Siano, Delaware Valley Skeptics Rev. Philosopher-King of The First Church of the Divine Otis Redding revpk@Cellar.UUCP "Ecrasez l'enfame!" - Voltaire """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!pacbell.com!att!ucbvax!mtxinu!rtech!wrs!davidj From: davidj@wrs.com (David Jones) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: UFO Events Calendar Summary: UFO Events Calendar Keywords: UFO Events Calendar Message-ID: Date: 26 Sep 91 02:12:05 GMT Sender: usenet@wrs.com (News Manager) Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc. Lines: 93 Nntp-Posting-Host: erra ************************************************************************* * The following are some upcoming events that will focus on UFOs. I * * share this with you in the hopes that the more people that know the * * truth, that the truth will be known by more people. I am in no * * way involved with any of these events and share this for information * * purposes only. If you know of other UFO-type events, I welcome email * * in this regards. Enjoy. * ************************************************************************* Sept. 28 UFORUM - West L. A. Every last Saturday of the month Speakers on all aspects of UFOs Felicia Mahood Center, 11338 Santa Monica Blvd. West Los Angeles, CA info: A.R.C. 11012 Ventura Blvd., #134, Studio City, CA 91604 213 874-8185 Sept 29 NH MUFON UFO Conference Yokens Convention Center, Portsmouth, New Hampshire Oct. 3-6 International UFO Congress European UFO Network, Belgium Oct. 12-13 The UFO Experience Holiday Inn, North Haven, Conn. Oct 12-13 Fourth Symposium of Ufology and Exobiology Sao Palo, Brazil Oct 19 Show-Me UFO Conference III Holiday Inn Airport-West Bridgeton, Missouri (near St. Louis Airport) Oct 26 UFORUM - West L. A. Every last Saturday of the month Speakers on all aspects of UFOs Felicia Mahood Center, 11338 Santa Monica Blvd. West Los Angeles, CA info: A.R.C. 11012 Ventura Blvd., #134, Studio City, CA 91604 213 874-8185 Nov 15 - 18 Fri - Mon Whole Life Expo Los Angeles Airport Hilton Convention Center 5711 W. Century Blvd. 213 369-7090 POB 1317 Venice, CA 90291 Marina Popovich, Brad Steiger among others will be speaking. Nov sometime CUFOS Santa Barbara Center for Humanistic Studies Santa Barbara, CA 93190-1611 Dec 8 - 13 Vegas International UFO Congress (This follows closely on the heels of the Tucson Conference, both put on by Wendelle Stevens) UFO's and Official Authorities Riviera Hotel, Las Vegas, NV Office: 4266 Broadway, Oakland CA 510 428-0202 FAX 510 654-7802 Tickets $290.00 (if obtained in advance) List of speakers: J.J Benitez, Spain, Spanish Government files Joel Mesnard, France, UFO Abductions Mario Luis Bracamonte, Argentina, Heads C.O.R. Group Zetha Rodriguez, Mexico, Prof. H. Abduction Prof. Darush Bagheri, Iran, UFOs in East Mythology Prof. Sun Shi-Li, Rep. of China, China UFO Update Bob Ewing, Rep. of S. Africa, Air Traffic and UFOs Capt. Rui Avila Castel, Portugal, UFOs and Airliners Capt. Guy Kirkwood, USA, UFO Intercepts Bob Oeschler, USA, NASA and UFOs Sgt. Clifford Stone, U.S. Army, Contactee Treatment Dr. Richard Haines, UAS, Pilot Reports on UFOs Jorge Martin, Puerto Rico, UFO Aircraft Capture Alejandro Agostinelli, Argentina, UFO Photographs Marco Petit de Castro, Brazil, UFO Photographs Guido Moosbrugger, Austria, Inside the Meier Case Michael Hessmann, Germany, Latest German UFOs Vladimir Terziski, Bulgaria, UFO Technology Lembit Rannu, Estonia, UFO Abductions Ulimas Lipende, Finland, UFO Abductions Hakkan Blomqvist, Sweden, THe Helge Case Tales Schonia, Georgia USSR, Tbilisi Landings Col. R. O. Dean, USA, SHAPE UFO Commission Sept 1992 (tentative) Belgian International UFO Conference (Put on by Wendelle Stevens. This will be his 3rd) 1993 sometime (probably) New York International UFO Conference (Put on by Wendelle Stevens. This will be his 4th) cc`ed to Paranet ------------------- David W. Jones davidj@wrs.com OR uunet!wrs!davidj ------------------- Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!cs.umn.edu!lynx!unmvax!bbx!yenta!karenm From: karenm@yenta.alb.nm.us (Karen Millar) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts Message-ID: <1991Sep28.164534.7111@yenta.alb.nm.us> Date: 28 Sep 91 16:45:34 GMT References: <47838@cup.portal.com> <50038@cs.jhu.edu> Organization: yenta unix pc, rio rancho, nm Lines: 37 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15612 alt.paranormal:3192 alt.alien.visitors:2187 arromdee@cs.jhu.edu (Ken Arromdee) writes: >In article <47838@cup.portal.com> Don_-_Showen@cup.portal.com writes: >>> I'd like to ask the Pleidians if they can solve a small math problem >>>for me. >>First neither I nor them are looking for converts. Converts give their power >>away to their converter. So Brian, do you honestly think there is a solution >>to that problem? >>So Brian if you believe there is a solution why >>don t you pretend that the higher intelligences are in your head trying to >>tell you the solution. Then get very relaxed and listen very carefully and >>hear it or maybe sit down at your terminal and autotype it out. And if you >>did that you could even say you did it yourself and get your Nobel. >Because there is a difference between a math problem like Fermat's Last Theorem >and the type of information you claim the Pleiadeans give. In my understanding, you have missed the point entirely, Brian. You *are* yourself hooked up to something that may be referred to as higher power, or collective unconscious, or god, (not necessarily aliens). All you have to do is get in tune with that hp by forgetting about your self-imposed limitations, and solve that problem of yours. It's not an easy task, but it is do-able... the information you desire is free for the taking, if you can but unlock your consciousnes, as Einstein and many many others have done. It is getting in tune with how the universe works, and we *are* capable of doing this. The main issue that the Pleiadians are trying to get across our thick sculls is that IT IS TIME TO WAKE UP! -- Love is the answer... Communication Facilities Designer Freelance in the Land of Enchantment Albuquerque, NM karenm@yenta.alb.nm.us (505) 292-3445 Path: ns-mx!uunet!caen!uwm.edu!convex.csd.uwm.edu!anthony From: anthony@convex.csd.uwm.edu (Anthony J Stieber) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts Message-ID: <1991Sep28.232335.1810@uwm.edu> Date: 28 Sep 91 23:23:35 GMT References: <47838@cup.portal.com> <50038@cs.jhu.edu> <1991Sep28.164534.7111@yenta.alb.nm.us> Sender: news@uwm.edu (USENET News System) Organization: University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee Lines: 27 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15616 alt.paranormal:3194 alt.alien.visitors:2188 In article <1991Sep28.164534.7111@yenta.alb.nm.us> karenm@yenta.alb.nm.us (Karen Millar) writes: > In my understanding, you have missed the point entirely, Brian. >You *are* yourself hooked up to something that may be referred to as >higher power, or collective unconscious, or god, (not necessarily aliens). >All you have to do is get in tune with that hp by forgetting about your >self-imposed limitations, and solve that problem of yours. It's not an Hmm, you seem to have missed the point as well. What Brian is interested in is also what mathmaticians have been interested in for the past 350+ years. They haven't found the general proof to Fermat's Last Theorem, it seems the Pleiadeans haven't either. While mathmaticians have found many other proofs, the Pleiadeans haven't found much of anything, except how to get some humans to think they exist on really flimsy evidence. Any study of general beliefs and religion of humans will reveal that humans will beleive just about anything. The newage movement is merely the contemporary example. So, you imply that you are "in tune with that hp" (personally I have a Psion not a Hewlett-Packard). Have you come up with anything that a few hundred years of mathmatics (or any other discipline) hasn't? If not, has anyone else? The Pleiadeans should put up or shut up. -- <-:(= Anthony Stieber anthony@csd4.csd.uwm.edu uwm!uwmcsd4!anthony Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Alien Evidence, Beam Wounds, etc. Message-ID: Date: 29 Sep 91 02:54:11 GMT References: <4657@sirius.ucs.adelaide.edu.au> <1991Sep27.091759.10748@cc.newcastle.edu.au> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 43 In article <1991Sep27.091759.10748@cc.newcastle.edu.au> ccasm@cc.newcastle.edu.au writes: >In article , jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) writes: >>..... except for the fact that there are cases in which the UFOs >> leave evidence of their existence -- including, as Vallee found, beam >> wounds. > >BEAM WOUNDS ? (We're talking about Vallee's "Confrontations", for anyone who came in late.) Read the book if you can find a copy. It's out in paperback now, and I think it only came out last year in hardback. What Vallee found is that in certain remote areas of Brazil, there are frequent sightings of small box-like UFOs (they've been described as looking like iceboxes or refrigerators, and they even hum.) They fly around at night with a light on the bottom and a light on one end (or side, I can't remember which), shining the bottom light on the ground. Stories about encounters with them vary slightly, but you've got to remember that one of Vallee's points against them (UFOs in general) being simple, rational, extraterrestrial spacecraft is that most of them act capriciously. It's unclear whether they attack people intentionally (if they do, they do it very inefficiently), but they may chase you if they find you. If you get caught in the beam, you immediately become very sick, and develop sore, reddened patches of skin later. Some people have died, but possibly from conditions (such as heart trouble) aggravated by the attack. The immediate effects of the beam are suggestive (to those who know about such things) of high-power pulses of microwaves. The Brazilian government once sent a team to study the phenomenon but not get involved in treating the victims. Pictures of the objects were taken and published in Brazilian newspapers, but the negatives have all been bought by an unidentified American company and so are not available for study. -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@amix.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: not in Kansas anymore! Message-ID: Date: 29 Sep 91 02:58:01 GMT Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 10 The four people who "disappeared" from Russell, Kansas recently are alive and well and on their way to Israel with Scott Corder, who apparently made a name for himself a few years ago by getting his medical license revoked for believing in a connection between UFOs and biblical prophecy. -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@amix.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!emory!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg From: jtg@cbnewsc.cb.att.com (Redheaded Goddess) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Note to Don Allen on the Deardorff book.... Message-ID: <1991Sep29.163015.25865@cbnewsc.cb.att.com> Date: 29 Sep 91 16:30:15 GMT Distribution: usa Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties Lines: 15 I do not frequently read this newsgroup, but a friend sent me something by you (Don Allen, I think)-- Could you please try emailing me privately? I am not sure my machine can get to yours...I am interested in what Deardorff has to say and also the other book that Wild Flower Press puts out. I feel we have *not* been told the truth about a lot of things in organized religions, and it is up to our own personal quests and pursuits to sift off the false from the true. So if you are out there, Don Allen, will you email me? Kathy Path: ns-mx!uunet!boulder!tigger!schiffd From: schiffd@cs.Colorado.EDU (David M. Schiff) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: More on Crop Circles Message-ID: <1991Sep29.191917.20581@colorado.edu> Date: 29 Sep 91 19:19:17 GMT Sender: news@colorado.edu (The Daily Planet) Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder, Department of Computer Science Lines: 48 Originator: schiffd@tigger Nntp-Posting-Host: tigger.cs.colorado.edu I recently attended a presentation on the crop circle phenomenon put on by two locals who became interested and conducted their own research by travelling to England, seeing the circles themselves and talking to researchers there. They also obtained many amazing photographs which formed the core of the presentaion. Among the things they said: 1) Concerning Doug and Dave -- The original story only claimed they had faked about 200 circles, not all of them. The news service that supplied the story is a fake and the town given is supposedly used by MI5 to plant disinformation stories. There was also supposedly a meeting of the National Security Council on the circles. Nobody knows what went on at the meeting. Yeah, I know, there's a conspiracy behind every rock - I'm just reporting:-) 2a) There's a loss of phototropism in the plants inside a real circle. Actually she (Kit) said last year the plants would stay bent over and continue to grow whereas this year the original stem would stay bent but a new shoot would grow skyward. Nevertheless it seems it should be a simple matter to separate the fakes from the "real" circles by merely observing them over some time interval to see if the stems try to right themselves or not. She said this was in fact observed. 2b) The seed heads of the plants inside the circles don't contain any seeds!! 3) Some sort of crystallographic analysis was done on cross-sections of plants taken from both inside & outside a circle. They displayed slides which showed very marked differences. exactly what was done or how, or how many samples were examined, etc. was not mentioned and I don't think they knew. Interestingly, she said that while there were many physical scientists over there weren't any biologists involved. It would seem to me that biological analysis of the plants could be very important. 4) This past summer, Japanese researchers cordoned off a field with burglar detection equipment over night. The next morning when the fog lifted there was a "circle" in the field. Infrared detectors didn't detect any bodies in the field. 5) They had a slide of one pictogram which was supposedly verified as being a perfect Mandelbrot set. I don't know anything about Mandelbrot sets but one gentleman in the audience did and was very impressed. I must say I take all this with a very large grain of salt, but nevertheless found the photographic evidence to be quite impressive. If hoaxers are doing it I take my hat off to them. Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac!unixhub!ditka!mv!summa4!admin From: admin@summa4.mv.com (Scott Babb) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts Message-ID: <1991Sep29.204656.10708@summa4.mv.com> Date: 29 Sep 91 20:46:56 GMT References: <46869@cup.portal.com> <47188@cup.portal.com> <47838@cup.portal.com> Organization: Summa Four Inc. Lines: 10 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15646 alt.paranormal:3196 alt.alien.visitors:2193 talk.religion.newage:6986 I hate to be a skeptic ;-), but has anyone mentioned that the Pleiadians claim to be from a star system whose age is measured in thousands of years (well, tens of thousands, maybe) while we lesser-advanced beings have taken millions of years to evolve to our current level? Perhaps living on plasma planets is more conducive to rapid intellectual evolution? -- These are solely the opinions of: Scott L. Babb - admin@summa4.mv.com "We didn't inherit the Earth from our parents, we are borrowing it from our children." Path: ns-mx!uunet!hoptoad!wet!charlie From: charlie@wet.UUCP (Charlie Galvin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Summary: Maybe they're NOT good at hiding Message-ID: <2973@wet.UUCP> Date: 30 Sep 91 05:25:29 GMT References: <1991Sep05.215012.3207@pmafire.inel.gov> <47424@cup.portal.com> Organization: Wetware Diversions, San Francisco Lines: 26 In article David O Hunt writes: >And if they don't want to make contact, they shouldn't be seen in the first >place. Imagine if we wanted to spy on a tribe of primitives in a jungle. >With our technological advantages they'd have no WAY of knowing we were >watching if we did it right. I rather think not. Primitive peoples generally discover explorers before explorers discover them. They're experinced in moving quietly, they know the terrain, etc. etc. I suspect it is overconfident to suppose that technology would in all cases prevent an observer from being seen or eliminate all telltale signs (unless you've got a cloaking device up your sleeve or something). And since an observer wouldn't necessarily know what we might consider as "something out of place", they would be almost certain to slip up SOMEwhere. Assuming, arguendo, that we are/have been visited by people from somewhere else, I think it would be highly likely that there would be SOME evidence of such a visit, despite all efforts to leave none. Something would be overlooked, and some local would spot it. Charles E. ("Cxarli") GALVIN, Jr. | H: +1 (415) 821-9783 [UTC 1400-0600] Vicdelegito k Fakdelegito (Junularo) | ucsfcca!wet!charlie Universala Esperanto-Asocio | San-francisco, Kalifornio, Usono | "Mi ne parolas la anglan!" Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!think.com!rpi!masscomp!peora!tous!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: INFO: Washington State UFO Sightings reports Message-ID: <1991Sep28.190452.11818@bilver.uucp> Date: 28 Sep 91 19:04:52 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 663 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2195 alt.conspiracy:7682 sci.skeptic:15651 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This information is presented for your persusal and is a continuation of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-) As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups exclusively, comments to me should be directed to dona@bilver.uucp in mail. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 08-17-91 06:57 From: Larry Langner About 1952 or 53 I saw a UFO while at my Grandfather's house om Vashon Island(near Tacoma) Washington) it was just a spot of yellow light to the naked eye, but when seen through binoculars it was a tear-drop shaped gold colored object which seemed to have a smaller object d dangling from it. It was probably a mile or 2 away & 2 or 3000 ft. in the a It was stationary & visable for over an hour(it left when nobody was looking) & was observed by about 8 members of my family. My grandfather said at the time tha about 2 years before he had seen a formation of about 10 disks fly over his house & a couple of days later a police boat was bombarded with molton metal from a flying saucer. This was suposed to be in all of the local papers & on the radio(before TV) at the time. Does anyone here remember this case? I'd like to hear the details. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Report #: 5 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 10-21-1985 Subject: PORT ORCHARD, WA CASE TYPE: CE I - NL DATE: 16 OCTOBER 1985 TIME: 0143 HOURS CFN#: 0131 SOURCE: NAT'T UFO REPORTING CENTER --------------------------------------- A WITNESS REPORTED SIGHTING TWO FAST MOVING LIGHTS IN THE SKY. THE WITNESS SAID THAT THE LIGHTS APPEARED TO BE SHOOTING BEAMS OF LIGHT FROM THEM. THE WITNESS SAID THE LIGHTS SHOOTING FROM THE LIGHTS WERE YELLOW AND RED IN COLOR. THE WITNESS SAID ALSO THAT THE LIGHTS WERE MOVING AT A VERY - FAST RATE OF SPEED. HE ALSO SAID THE LIGHTS WERE ON A COURSE GOING SOUTH TO NORTH. THE DURATION OF THIS SIGHTING WAS ABOUT 30 SECONDS. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Report #: 196 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 12-01-1986 Subject: BURIEN, WA CASE TYPE: LRS - NL DATE: 30 NOVEMBER 1986 TIME: 0155 HOURS CFN#: 0318 DURATION: 30 - 45: SECONDS WITNESSES: TWO SOURCE: CUFON - UFO INFORMATION SERVICE ------------------------------------------- John Williams of KIRO television called CUFON - UFO Information Service with a report that he had received from a witness near Burien, WA. The witness reported seeing some kind of object in the southern sky coming at him with smoke coming out the back of it and appeared to break apart. There was one light and it then broke off in like 4-5 different off shoots with smoke on each one. The witness and his mom with several others said it appeared to be a parachute that went right over their heads, but it was moving very very quickly. The metal object with a parachute on it went over their heads and the other off shoot pieces went in different directions. What appeared to be a parachute the witness did not think was as it went over his head very very fast. John Williams also stated that after receiving the report he called the Sea-Tac duty officer at FAA and he said that it could have been in cloud lightning because there were no military aircraft in the area at that time. CUFON - UFO Information Service then called the witness to get his direct report. The witness stated that he was over at his parents when he saw a bright light coming out of the south. He thought it was one of the lights from a jet coming into the airport at first as they are right by the airport, but realized it couldn't be because the Sea-Tac Burien airport would be farther to the east. Then his mom came out and he pointed it out and her description of it was the best, she described it as a sparkler where you are looking at the center of it with smoke coming off it. As the bright light started dimming you could still see the smoke. It seemed to break up and he lost track of all the other pieces save one. It looked as if they had flown off it. The one big piece came sailing out and it looked like a parachute with something on the end of it heading from south to north slightly northeast over their heads at what seemed like an incredible velocity. It looked, shape wise, like a parachute. The fact that it seemed to be going so fast made him think it had to be some kind of space craft or something. He never saw it descend, it just shot across the sky. Observation was 30-45 seconds. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Report #: 200 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 12-10-1986 Subject: GRANDVIEW, WA CASE TYPE: LRS - NL DATE: 4 & 7 SEPTEMBER 1986 TIME: 0400, 2230 HOURS CFN#: 0322 DURATION: UNKNOWN WITNESSES: MANY SOURCE: HERALD, GRANDVIEW, WA --------------------------------- Grandview residents were among several people who reported seeing unidentified flying objects on Thursday morning and Sunday evening. On Thursday, a Wapato policeman was the first to spot a UFO, about 4 a.m. The object travelled slowly, and was last seen near Prosser about 6 a.m. It was described as large and changed colors. Although small in the night sky, it was larger than a star or planet. An object brighter than a planet was spotted over the Rattlesnake Hills, north of Grandview, on Sunday evening about 10:30 p.m. It changed colors rapidly. A witness described it as alternating red and green, and a ray of light seemed to be coming out the bottom. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Report #: 212 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 01-24-1987 Subject: GIGHARBOR, WA CASE TYPE: CE I DATE: 23 JANUARY 1987 TIME: 21:30 HOURS CFN#: 0334 DURATION: 3:MINUTES WITNESSES: THREE SOURCE: UFO INFORMATION SERVICE ---------------------------------------- At 9:45 P.M. the UFO Information Service in Seattle Washington received a report of a UFO sighting that took place at Gighorbor, which is in the State of Wash. Three Witnesses reported observing a UFO Unidentified Flying Object. They Stated that they first noticed the object hovering over some houses. The witnesses said the ufo or object was oval shaped and said the color of the object was blue. They stated when the ufo let the area it went straight up and out of sight from them. They also stated that there was "no sequel to any movement that the object made". This could be the same object that was reported in Arnold, city, PA case number CFN#:0333 because the object in both cases was oval shaped and in both cases the object was blue. Interesting also is the duration in both cases of 3 minutes. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ LOG # 890912 - Event 12/15/88 near Shelton, Washington. Investigator James Clarkson. From their secluded lakeside home, a family was attracted outside by a brilliant approaching light illuminating the trees below. They observed three black boomerangs, the first estimated variously from 75 feet at the base to "a football field", move very slowly overhead at treetop level. The latter two were identical in shape but much smaller. The wife attempted a flash photo, but neither prints nor negatives were returned. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mutual UFO Network Investigative Sighting Report ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ PRELIMINARY UFO REPORT DATE: March 5, 1988 TIME: Between 9:20 and 9:25 P.M. LOCATION: West Seattle, Washington DURATION: 1-3 minutes SOURCE OF SIGHTING: UFO Reporting Center 206-722-3000 INVESTIGATOR: Donald A. Johnson, Ph.D., MUFON While crossing the street on foot from a corner convenience store a man and a woman observed a huge, metallic spherical-shaped object surrounded by a corona of bright blue light over the West Seattle golf course. They described the object as "as wide as a football field is long" (300 feet). They heard a humming sound, and estimated the altitude to be only 300 yards above the golf course. They reported being nearly knocked down by a car because they were standing there in the middle of the street "kind of mesmerized" by the sight of such a strange object so close to the ground in a populated area. The driver of the car who stopped got out and also watched the object. Together they watched the object for a period of approximately 30-40 seconds. It moved very quickly right, then left--in a zig-zag fashion as it gained altitude--and then departed very quickly into the upper atmosphere. The woman is in her thirties and works as a transit operator for the regional transit system. The man, her boyfriend, is in his forties. After the sighting they discussed what they had seen with the other witness. The other witness suggested that they not report it to anyone and drove off without giving his name. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 10-23-90 23:56 From: Phil Barnett To: all Subj: sighting? EID:3e9c 1557bf10 Hi, I'm new to this echo and thought you might be interested in something I saw while living in Seattle around 1977. I was leaving my night shift at a bar (bartending) and was not driving. It was about 1am. The driver of the car commented that is sure is bright, must be a full moon. I looked around, and it was too bright. I leaned out the window, and looked up. I saw a large group of lights, ducked back in and said. "Dary, pull off onto a side street, now!". I think i scared him, 'cause he pulled a screecher. We were at the top of the hill, uphill from the university district, on 45th street. We both got out, and started watching this thing. It looked close, but made absolutely no sound. It was a totally calm night. The kind that would have transmitted sound very well. The lights were pulsating, in a rotating blinking pattern. We both decided it could only be a blimp, to hover silently like that. We watched it for about ten minutes as it headed east across the university district. It was about 2.5 miles away at around 2000 ft. by our estimation, when suddenly, it shot over the mountain range about 25-30 miles east and dissappeared in less that a blink. We never could explain what it was, but is was sure no blimp! There were no reports of anything in the paper the next day, or any day after that, although a few people leaving the bar that night said they saw the bright lights, no one saw it shoot off. We couldn't take our eyes off of it. Any ideas? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ MUFONET-BBS Network - Mutual UFO Network ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Investigative Sighting Report ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ UNUSUAL REPORT OF A UFO AND A GREEN-FACED ENTITY SEEN NEAR AN OLD U.S.A.F. NIKE MISSLE BASE DATE: June 24, 1988 TIME: Sometime between 12:30 and 2:00 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time LOCATION: Redmond, Washington DURATION: Estimates vary, around 7 minutes for sighting of UFO; about 45 minutes total duration including sighting of face, possibly longer SOURCE OF SIGHTING: UFO Information Service (Goudie) INVESTIGATORS: Donald A. Johnson, Ph.D., MUFON Don Olson, MUFON Rita Andreeva, MUFON Four 11-year-old girls who had attended a private Christian elementary school together were having a slumber party reunion at the home of one of the girls on Education Hill in Redmond, Washington. At a few minutes after either 12:30 AM or 1:30 AM they were looking out the window to see if they could find the girl's dog. They were downstairs in the TV room, while the parents and brother and sister of the host were asleep upstairs. They witnessed a craft-like UFO, described as either a domed-disc or two plates put together edge-to- edge, hovering in the night sky. It had white and red lights and possibly faint green lights around the rim of the object. Of the two girls interviewed, both thought right away that it was a UFO (i.e. "spacecraft"), and not an aircraft because it was similar to a picture they had once seen in a book. The UFO was hovering at about 30 degrees above the horizon when first sighted. It was described as smaller than a house in size, possibly 25 feet in diameter. The UFO moved to the right horizontally about 10 degrees, reversed direction abruptly and moved back in a straight line to the left 10 degrees, moved back to the right 5 degrees to a center position, and then moved really fast straight down. It moved down behind some tall evergreen trees and the girls thought that it probably came down in a clearing in Nike Park, about 3-4 blocks from the girl's home where they were staying. The UFO was reported to be visible through the window of the TV room for a total of between 2 and 7 minutes. Some time later, within 15 minutes to a half an hour, two of the girls witnessed a frightening face. The accounts of how the face appeared to them varies. In one account the girls thought they saw something like a shadow or a figure at the top of the stairs leading up to the kitchen. The became scared and hid in their sleeping bags; they zipped them over their heads and lay next to each other. They conversed through the bags and agreed to look at the same time, so that it would not be too scary. As they pulled the bags down from over their heads they saw a dark, mossy green face only about arm's length away. Really frightened, one of the girls pulled the sleeping bag over her head, and when she looked out again in a few minutes, the being was gone. The other girl's account said they were lying on their backs trying to get to sleep and staring up at the ceiling when all of a sudden they both saw this green face. She watched it for about 45 seconds, "and then it just, went away". Asked if it just vanished like it was a slide from a projector or something, she said, no, it wasn't like that. It was just like a real face, but it was green in color and it was looking at them. The second girl appears to be unclear about how the face appeared because she also reports she covered her head with the sleeping bag at one point but can't remember when. The face was described as greenish in hue, with red, glowing eyes. Interviewed separately, both of the girls said there was something like a dent in one of the cheeks. One girl said it looked like the "face on Mars" photograph she saw in the newspaper about a week later, while the other girl said it had pointy ears and bushy eyebrows. When asked a direct question later about the pointed ears, the second girl said she didn't remember any ears. If the face had indeed been attached to a body, one girl figures that the being must have been about 3 1/2 to 4 feet tall. About 10 to 15 minutes later the second girl, who lived there, saw a clump of rainbow colored lights slowly revolving in her kitchen and flashing light all over the ceiling and refrigerator. The first girl made a vague reference to lights in the kitchen but apparently did not see the rainbow-colored clump of lights hovering in the kitchen (the kitchen is partially visible from the TV room, up half a flight of stairs). The girls became noisy discussing what they had seen woke the mother. The mother came down and ordered them to go to sleep. Apparently nothing further happened that night. Of the other two girls, they are certain that one saw what they saw but would not consent to be interviewed by UFO investigators. They are unsure what the fourth girl saw. The second girl, the one at whose home the events occurred, reported that she had had a precognitive experience during that previous day, recalling during a croquet match that she had dreamed those exact events some weeks before. She also reports that since the UFO incident she is no longer subject to nose bleeds, which she reports have occurred to her chronically throughout her life and also occur with her father. She also said that a soccer injury to her knee no longer gave her any pain after the encounter, and she attributes the healing to the event. The neighborhood in which her home is located borders an old Air Force Nike Missle base. Part of the property is now a Washington State National Guard facility, part of it is deserted and belongs to the local school district, and part of it has been converted to a park. We talked to a staff sargent on the National Guard base who reported that he was sleeping at the base on the night in question and recalls nothing unusual. He reported that light aircraft tend to use the base as a landmark and so overflights are frequent, and, during the daytime hours, hot air balloons frequently come over the base from the Sammamish River valley to land in some clearings to the east. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- PRELIMINARY UFO REPORT DATE: March 5, 1988 TIME: Between 9:20 and 9:25 P.M. LOCATION: West Seattle, Washington DURATION: 1-3 minutes SOURCE OF SIGHTING: UFO Reporting Center 206-722-3000 INVESTIGATOR: Donald A. Johnson, Ph.D., MUFON While crossing the street on foot from a corner convenience store a man and a woman observed a huge, metallic spherical-shaped object surrounded by a corona of bright blue light over the West Seattle golf course. They described the object as "as wide as a football field is long" (300 feet). They heard a humming sound, and estimated the altitude to be only 300 yards above the golf course. They reported being nearly knocked down by a car because they were standing there in the middle of the street "kind of mesmerized" by the sight of such a strange object so close to the ground in a populated area. The driver of the car who stopped got out and also watched the object. Together they watched the object for a period of approximately 30-40 seconds. It moved very quickly right, then left--in a zig-zag fashion as it gained altitude--and then departed very quickly into the upper atmosphere. The woman is in her thirties and works as a transit operator for the regional transit system. The man, her boyfriend, is in his forties. After the sighting they discussed what they had seen with the other witness. The other witness suggested that they not report it to anyone and drove off without giving his name. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ West Seattle, Washington UFO Report Saturday, March 5, 1988 PART I: Narrative of principal witness, male, age 43 Transcribed from notes by Dr. Donald Johnson, March 13, 1988 At approximately 9:30 p.m. I left the ARCO convenience store at the southwest corner of Fauntleroy and SW Alaska St. and noticed the object while facing east. It was "sitting" [hovering] over towards the golf course and club house. I live on Fauntleroy and Dawson, about 4 blocks south of Fauntleroy and Alaska. I looked at it, then looked away then back for about 3 or 4 seconds. It wasn't sitting on the ground, but if it had it would have crushed the clubhouse, because it would have been right over it. [Later at the clubhouse he revised this comment to say that it was probably not over the clubhouse but in a clearing between the highway and the golf course to the right of the clubhouse--an area some 500 yards long and 100 yards wide. It is important to note that if the UFO had been near the ground in this area it would have been hidden from view to the south by trees, to the north by the West Seattle high school stadium, and from 35th S.W. by a hill.] It was huge--I don't know what a "mothership" is (we get our terminology from TV), but it was like a mothership, it was big. [Later at the intersection he described the size of the object as stretching from a rotating motel sign on the left to a tall evergreen tree on the right, a distance that would be covered by 3 inches of a ruler held at arm's length. His estimate on the report form that the apparent size of the object was as large as a 12" ruler held at arm's length was therefore an exaggeration.] I shouted back and called [his girlfriend's] attention to it. It moved to the left, then to the right, then it moved away and up until it was out of sight. While we were watching it we stood in the middle of the intersection and nearly got run over by two or three cars. One guy who almost hit me honked and said, "are you nuts?", and I said, "no man, look at that". He stopped and said "is someone hurt" and then he saw the object. He saw it while it was in motion. We watched it until the damn thing disappeared. The other witness--a guy 25 to 30 years old, heavy build with a blond mustache, 5'9 to 5'11, well dressed in sweater and slacks--said, "somebody's playing a joke, right?", and I said, "No, I've been watching it for about 30 seconds." I didn't hear anything like a hum or a buzz like you would get from an airplane. There was nothing. [When questioned about his note on the sketch made earlier that said "humming sound":] I heard a humming sound like the electric [cooling] fan on a car after the engine is turned off, but it was probably the car of the guy who stopped. I'm almost sure the sound didn't come from the object. The other guy said he was on his way to Jake O'Shaunnessy's Restaurant to meet someone and had to get going. I said I was going to go down to the golf course and check that out. I went down to the clubhouse parking lot, there were only two cars there, parked in front of the clubhouse. I didn't see anything more unusual there. The stadium lights were on at the West Seattle High stadium there at the park. The first thing I thought when I saw it was that it was a carbon arc [searchlight], and I was looking around first for a carbon-arc searchlight to see if there was some source of the light. I used to be a projectionist and used to work on the carbon arc. You could project the pictures on the clouds with one of those things if you wanted to. But it was definitely a physical object. [Asked about the weather conditions that night:] There was a full moon that night. The moon looked huge that night. It was clear, there were sparse clouds but not "en masse" so you couldn't see the sky. I hadn't been drinking and I don't do any drugs. [Asked about his line of work:] I run a shoe repair concession with two other men in the Nordstrom's Men Shoe department, and I'm a part-time musician (percussion and piano). [Asked about his familiarity with UFO literature:] We saw the Betty and Barney Hill movie, I used to watch a TV series in the '60s called Project Blue Book, one of my favorite movies is "The Day the Earth Stood Still", and I read Shirley MacLaine's book "Out on a Limb". [Asked about a description of the object:] The object was metallic blue color. It was shaped like this [makes an ellipse in the air with his two hands], but it wasn't flat like you would think a flying saucer should be. It had greenish yellow lights in a row--six of them the same size. There were three rings of rotating white light: the one on the left was rotating counter-clockwise and the one on the right was rotating clockwise and the one on the bottom was probably rotating clockwise. It had a blue thing on top like the radar detector on an AWAC aircraft. It may not have been attached. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- West Seattle, Washington UFO Report March 5, 1988 PART II: Narrative of second witness, female, age 33 Transcribed from notes by Dr. Donald Johnson, March 13, 1988 [The first three paragraphs are a narrative from a phone interview with this witness on Friday, March 11th:] While crossing the street with my boyfriend from a corner 24-hour convenience store we saw a huge, metallic spherical-shaped object surrounded by a bright blue light over the West Seattle golf course and Camp Long. The object was as wide as a football field is long. We heard a humming sound, and estimated it to be only 300 yards above the golf course. We were nearly knocked down by a car because we were standing there in the middle of the street kind of mesmerized by the sight of such a strange object so close to the ground. The driver of the car pulled over and stopped. We watched the object together for about 30-40 seconds. It moved very quickly right, then left--in sort of a zig-zag--and then it was gone. I'm in my thirties and I work as a transit operator for Metro [the regional bus system]. I've never seen anything like it despite driving buses late at night for many years. After the sighting we discussed the sighting with the other man and we decided not to report it. Later on I decided that we ought to report what we had seen to someone, and I looked up "UFO" in the white pages and found the number for the UFO Reporting Center and called it. I'm sorry now that the other witness drove away before we could get his name. We called to find out if anyone else had reported it and were surprised to hear that no one else had. [Narrative from March 13, 1988:] I was still in the store when he saw the object from the sidewalk. I don't know how long he'd seen it before he yelled at me. But when he got my attention he pointed over in the golf course direction. I saw it when it first started to move. When it moved up, it moved sort of away. I guess east. The more we talked about it the more we felt that we should call somebody. I called the UFO Reporting Center late on Monday morning. I wanted confirmation that "yes, we did see this strange object, because other people saw it, too". He went down to the golf course, I just went home. I have a two-and-a-half-year-old and he was asleep in the car and I didn't want to get too close. My parents are Jehovah's Witnesses and they have a religious interpretation for these things, they say that they are "spiritual manifestations" [Note: the notetaker missed some of what the parents' explanation was at this point, however, the gist of what she said was that she was skeptical of her parents' interpretation.] -------------------------------------------------------------------------- WHIDBEY ISLAND UFO REPORT CLASSIFIED AS AN "UNKNOWN" After a thorough investigation of all pertinent facts, the UFO sighting reported by Dan MacIndoe of Oak Harbor on January 21st, 1988 has been classified as a true "unknown". The Mutual UFO Network (MUFON)--a civilian organization of trained professionals that investigates UFO reports--has ruled out all possible conventional explanations for the object seen by Mr. MacIndoe, his wife, mother, mother-in-law and father-in-law, and three-year- old daughter. Dan MacIndoe, age 32, an ex-Navy lieutenant with seven years military service in the field of aviation supply--including work assignments with the Navy's prestigious Blue Angels squadron--was rated as an exceptionally credible witness by the MUFON organization. The UFO encounter began at 10:45 p.m. on the night of January 21st at the MacIndoe home not far from the Whidbey Island Naval Air Station. Flight operations at Whidbey NAS had by that time been over for 15 minutes, with the last plane reported "on the deck" at 10:30 p.m. The UFO was first observed by Cornelia MacIndoe, age 72, Dan MacIndoe's mother, who sighted a bright, orange-yellow stationary light in the southern sky when she went outside to smoke a cigarette. She called the entire family's attention to the object, and together they watched as the UFO shot straight up for approximately 3 degrees of arc from a position 25 degrees above the horizon in the direction of the Naval Air Station. The object then abruptly stopped, made a sharp right-angle turn in the horizontal direction and came straight towards them. According to MacIndoe's account, the object covered a distance of one and a half miles in approximately 3 seconds. As the UFO approached the house it seemed to slow, taking approximately 15 seconds to slowly drift directly over the heads of the five adult witnesses and child. It disappeared from view as it travelled in a straight path to the NNE, passing behind some tall fir trees behind the MacIndoe house. While the object was passing overhead Dan MacIndoe was able to observe the object through a 135 mm telephoto lens, and was also able to determine that there was no sound associated with its flight. Mr. MacIndoe described the shape of the underside of the object as that of "a perfect circle." "The lights were blueish-white in nature and I estimate 15 lights spanned the circumference of the circle. All remained on forming a circle of 'running lights'. The lights would pulse brighter in sequence, I believe going in a clockwise direction," Dan MacIndoe reported. He went on to say, "...during the event winds were calm, there were scattered clouds in the vicinity. We live in a rural area. There were no sounds. During the entire episode none of us heard the usual prop or jet noise associated with military aircraft using the airfield. At the time the object was directly overhead I asked my family for complete silence to listen for engine noise. There was absolute silence." According to Dr. Donald Johnson, Washington State Director for MUFON, a combination of factors were sufficient to rule out all mundane explanations for the sighting. "The fact that this overflight occurred in restricted military airspace, together with the testimony of multiple witnesses, the complete lack of sound, the observation of the unusual lighting pattern on the object seen through magnification, and the lack of wind combine to provide sufficient information to classify this case as an unknown." "In other words, there is little possibility that the object the MacIndoes and others reported seeing that night was a satellite, balloon, commercial or military airplane or helicopter, or astronomical body." The National Weather Service and Whidbey NAS were called to confirm that there were no weather balloons released at that time. Additionally, several of Mr. MacIndoe's Dugualla Bay neighbors and others from as far away as Lake Washington, Edmonds, and Bellingham called him to report that they had also witnessed unusual lights in the sky that evening. Dr. Johnson reports that the field investigation has been evaluated by the national headquarters as complete. The sighting was assigned a strangeness rating of four on a five-point scale--labelled as "strange, does not conform to known principles", and it also received a probability rating of four on a five point scale--"credible and sound". -EOF--- Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!think.com!rpi!masscomp!peora!tous!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: INFO: West NY UFO sightings part 1 Message-ID: <1991Sep28.192908.11939@bilver.uucp> Date: 28 Sep 91 19:29:08 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 600 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2196 alt.conspiracy:7683 sci.skeptic:15652 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This information is presented for your persusal and is a continuation of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-) As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups exclusively, comments to me should be directed to dona@bilver.uucp in mail. --------------------------------------------------------------------- THE WESTCHESTER WING -- A CLOSER LOOK BY R. Perry Collins From the spring of 1983 to the summer and fall of 1984, the counties of Westchester, New York and Fairfield, Conneticut were the focus of one of the largest UFO waves in history. An estimated 30,000 individuals in these areas witnessed an extremely large, obviously structured, triangular-shaped object cruising silently at altitudes of less than one thousand feet. It was most often described as a huge "V" shaped flying wing. During this same period, while groups of unidentified pilots had been flying light aircraft in V formations, police departments had been visited by federal agents offering "hang glider" and "light aircraft" flights as explanations for the lights in the sky. Several months after the beginning of these sightings, a popular television series began. The show is called "V" and portrays invaders from the stars, disguised as humans, who, in reality are alien reptiles bent on conquering the world. Can all this be coincidence? If more than 30,000 people have seen this thing, why haven't the major media groups been more interested? Why are federal agents covertly investigating and attempting to censor reports of these overflights? Why now, when unidentified aircraft can be rapidly detected, intercepted and even shot down, has this object apparently not been challenged? On August 21st, 1983, I personally witnessed the object. I grew up in the Air Force and now work as an aerospace engineer. What I saw was not an aircraft nor a group of light planes. As a result, I began an in-depth investigation of the phenomenon the next day. Prior to August 21st, I had followed reports of the object and spoken with several investigators who were attempting to determine its real nature. Then I began investigating the reports myself. I interviewed witnesses, spoke with local police officers and conferred with other investigators and with interested journalists. I found clear evidence of the existence of an aerial craft, approximately three times as large as the largest known conventional aircraft, which displayed characteristics beyond our current level of technology. I also found indications of a well-planned attempt to coverup the sightings, and covert investigations by federal agencies using FBI operatives and other federal agency personnel. The object got major notice on March 24th, 1983 when residents of Yorktown, New Castle, Mt. Kisco and other nearby towns in New York State reported it cruising slowly at low altitude. From that date to the present (last confirmed sighting Dec. 26th, 1984) the unknown object has been reported over Westchester, Putnam, Rockland and Duchess counties in New York and over Fairfield county in Conneticut. Professional investigators have interviewed more than 2000 witnesses, more than seventy media articles have appeared (primarily in local newspapers), and photographs and video tapes have recorded the presence of the "V" shaped UFO. Numerous police officers have seen it. These same officers have reported attempts by their police chiefs to censor their statements. Investigators of this phenomenon have been covertly watched and, on occasion, subjected to spurious interviews by FBI agents. All of this is documented; here, by the media, in the logs of investigators, on tapes of witness accounts and in signed statements by police officers. WHAT IS REALLY HAPPENING Before we can attempt any analysis we must take a long, hard look at the information available. Three men have been most active in investigating these reports: Lt. George Lesnick of the Fairfield, Conneticut police department, Philip Imbrogno of Greenwich, Conneticut, and myself. Phil and George have been more active in interviewing witnesses and relaying information that the Center for UFO Studies in Illinois. The head of CUFOS and 'dean' of UFO research, J. Allen Hynek, has personally visited the area several times to interview witnesses with George and Phil. He acknowledges this to be "one of the largest UFO waves in history." We cannot deal directly with the object, examine it and determine exactly what it is or where it is from. We can examine witness reports, drawings and photographs of the object. We can examine the reaction of the media, of local police and of federal agencies such as the FAA, the ANG (Air National Guard) and the FBI. Thousands of witness reports are on record. Drawings, photographs and reports of aircraft encounters are also available. (The media coverage is listed at the end of this article.) While the object has been seen primarily over the Westchester/Fairfield area there are reports from Pennsylvania to Maine of a UFO with similar characteristics. There are also scattered reports of this type of UFO seen during 1980, 1981 and 1982. The focus, however, seems to be on this 1983 and 1984 flap over New York and Conneticut. The first widely read media article to comment on this object was printed in the Port Chester (New York) Daily Item. Hundreds Claim to Have Seen UFO was the headline and, indeed, hundreds of reports of a large, "V" shaped UFO with multicolored lights were received by the police departments of Yorktown, Mt. Kisco, Carmel and nearby areas. This was on Thursday night, March 24, 1983. Police officers in these towns also reported seeing it. (For the record, however, one week earlier, on March 17th, residents of Kent, N.Y. and motorists on highway I-84 had reported an identical UFO.) The object was seen the next night, March 25th, and again the following night. Now the witnesses numbered in the thousands. Other newspapers began picking up the story. Again the object appeared on several nights in early April, this time in the area of Danbury, Conneticut and a story appeared in the Danbury News-Times. Then the Sunday New York Times on April 17th carried a lengthy article about the activity. The name Philip Imbrogno was seen often and rightly so; Phil is one of the most authoritative experts on aerial phenomena in the area. A Viet-Nam war medical corpsman veteran, he is a high school science teacher and a graduate astronomer. Phil is a man of many talents, with an exacting attitude as an investigator and almost limitless energy. He began pursuing the mystery of this UFO and, with the aid of Lt. Lesnick, an experienced police investigator, gathered reams of data. Verbal reports on tape, written and signed reports, occasional photographs, drawings, maps of flight routes and computer evaluations of patterns began accumulating as George and Phil continued their investigations. Obligingly, the UFO continued to reappear. Then, other aspects of the situation also began to occur. It was clear to Phil and George and to most of the witnesses that what was being seen was not a conventional aircraft nor a group of them. The object hovered, made little or no noise, performed unusual and abrupt turns, rotated on its own axis and displayed extremely rapid accelerations and decelerations. Often it was reported to blink off its lights, seeming to disappear, only to reappear seconds later, lights blazing, in a removed quadrant of the evening sky miles away. Official explanations began to proliferate. First they said it was hang gliders, then "ultra light" aircraft. These explanations were shown to be inaccurate, or at least, inadequate. Such very light aircraft would be hard pressed to stay aloft even with the weight of several hand flashlights, not to mention six to twenty bright, glowing lights. Other explanations came to the fore. Light aircraft in formation became the byword of authorities and explainers. It was, at this time, more than two months after the beginning of the sightings, that attention became focused upon a group of pilots flying out of Stormville airport in New York. These pilots flew close formations, most often in V or wedge- shaped patterns. Thus, the perfect explanation for the sightings was found and publicized. Reality, however, was more complex. Lt. Lesnick uncovered definite evidence of censorship attempts directed towards the witnesses who were police officers. These officers stated that the police chiefs of their departments had been visited by federal agents and that they had then been instructed to explain the UFOs as conventional aircraft activity. The officers were indignant about this, for they were convinced that what they saw was not normal aircraft activity. The Stormville pilots were very evasive and would not talk to investigators or newspaper reporters. Several times they avoided state and local police waiting in their cruisers at the landing strip by diverting themselves to other airports. More was going on then met the eye. Throughout the summer and into the late fall of 1983 the "V" shaped object continued to be seen. Media articles appeared, but less often, I found myself drawn to the activity, and spoke several times with George and Phil. They greatly impressed me. These men were very professional UFO investigators. Compared to them, I felt I was a hobbyist. At the beginning of this wave of activity I began to keep a log of all information coming my way that might pertain to this "object." My first guess was that it was some new type of military aircraft displayed in a strange attempt to gage public reaction to UFOs. After several talks with witnesses and aerospace engineers, this idea began to seem untenable. After August 21st, when the object circled and overflew my residence, the idea that it had been constructed using our present day technology was one I abandoned altogether. On August 21st, 1983, I watched the object at close range for several minutes. That same night witnesses reported it over New Haven, West Haven, Bridgeport, Monroe and Stratford, Conneticut. On September 23rd, 1983, the object was seen over Newton, Sandy Hook and along Highway I-84 in Conneticut. We shall examine these two nights in depth as an expanded reference to the larger range of reported incidents. In this way we may find some tentative answers or at least some closer descriptions of its appearances and activities. It is important that we draw no conclusions unless warranted by the data available. UFOs are unreal to most of us. We have not seen them. We see only the reports. For those people who saw this UFO, it suddenly becomes a reality which is open to various interpretations. Explanations, especially for those not directly exposed to the phenomenon, leaped forth. I saw it. I have a clear grasp of what I saw and how it interacted with me. I have also closely interviewed many of the witnesses of August 21st and September 23rd. Yet, I have no idea what it actually was -- I can only report on how it appeared and what it did. What it actually was or is will remain, for the most part, unknown until it lands or openly displays itself in daylight. Witnesses agree, no matter what may have been aloft, the object they saw was not a formation of light planes. Many witnesses have seen both the object and a group of light aircraft in formation over their areas (not at the same time). These witnesses, some being pilots themselves, agree that there was no confusing the two. Again, the object was huge, displayed multicolored lights (which changed color and intensity), flew below 1000 feet, hovered, moved at very low speeds, turned on its own axis, accelerated very rapidly, cast unusual light beams to the ground and interacted with witnesses as if it was aware of the witness participation in its appearance. No formation of light planes, or other conventional aircraft, can do all these things. A CLOSER LOOK Let us look at the nights of August 21st and September 23rd, 1983, in more detail. AUGUST 21st, 1983: At approximately 10:30 p.m. on the evening of August 21st, 1983, an unusual flying object with multicolored lights was reported to Louis Coveyduck at Tweed-New Haven Airport, Conneticut. The first calls came in from the Foxon/East Haven area, followed by calls from New Haven and then West Haven. Six witnesses reported more than unusual lights; their reports were of a huge lighted object seen at close range. Two men, Shawn Fricker and John Trendine, both from West Haven, reported seeing the object hovering low over the Yale Bowl stadium, just outside of New Haven. Security guards Jose Velasquez and Kenneth Rayon saw it directly over the Jackson Newspaper building. Police also received calls from numerous individuals such as Robert McBride, his wife and neighbors on Washington Avenue in New Haven. They consistently reported an extremely large, low-flying object seemingly studded with multicolored lights. At 10:40 p.m., three women reported a low flying "V" shaped object near Seaside Park in Bridgeport. These witnesses became somewhat agitated as the large display of lights seemed to follow them from the shore and through Bridgeport towards the North End of town. At 10:45 p.m., I, myself, saw a set of unusual lights low over the North End near St. Vincent's Hospital. As I watched, they seemed to be drifting slowly and then blinked out. Not really believing what I saw, and attempting to rationally explain it to myself mentally, I moved to a window facing west, over Main Street. As I looked out, the lights reappeared. They were stationary now, and much closer. There were three widely- spaced lights, approximately four city blocks away, about two or three hundred feet over the rooftops. I was on the third floor of a house on French Street. As I watched, I became convinced that the lights were unusual and that what I was seeing was a UFO. The lights, colored red, green and blue, began changing color. The green blinked out, then back on, then they all went out. At this point I moved to the north facing window. Upon looking out and up, I witnessed a huge display of wing shaped colored lights, moving silently and slowly eastward between me and the hospital. The hospital sits on a hill approximately half a mile away and a quarter of a mile up from my residence. Being a quality control engineer by profession, I computed the dimensions of the structure containing the lights to be at least 500 feet across and 300 feet long. I immediately called Lt. Lesnick and then went outdoors in an attempt to see the object again. Security guard Lopes of Sikorsky Field in Stratford reported that a very excited motorist had driven into the airport at approximately 10:55 p.m. to report having seen "a huge UFO" over Route 25 moments before. The motorist would have been seeing the object at the same time and in the same area as myself. At 11:06 p.m., the Monroe Police Department received a call from an electrical engineer living near a new golf course in the town. The engineer reported observing a set of unusual colored lights hovering over and behind his house. At 11:10 p.m., the Monroe police received another call from a man living less than three hundred yards from the engineer. Lee Lent, his wife and his eldest son all saw a very large, "V" shaped group of lights hovering at less than two hundred feet in front of their house. The lights, "blue, green and almost a pink color," hovered and then began moving directly towards the open fields of the golf course. Mr. Lent works as a financial director of a successful company and has often traveled by air, many times in light aircraft. "This was no plane," he stated emphatically. He and his family had watched it hovering silently for approximately five minutes before it began moving silently over his house. Shortly after this, another Monroe resident and her teenaged daughter saw the object moving slowly over their house back towards Bridgeport. At 11:45 p.m., I returned to my house and called the Bridgeport Police Department to report the UFO. At 11:50 p.m., a young woman in the vicinity of the General Electric plant near Boston and Seaview Avenues called the Bridgeport police to say that she and several friends were watching a huge lighted object either moving or hovering in the sky. Immediately afterwards, at 11:55 p.m., Stratford police received a call from Cliff Robertson, 58, who stated that he, his wife and several others were watching a "huge cluster of lights" in the air over Conners Lane near Huntington Road, in Stratford. Tracing the reports, we see that a huge, well-lighted, seemingly "V" shaped object was seen first over East Haven, then New Haven, then West Haven, then Bridgeport, then Monroe, back over Bridgeport and onto Stratford. The sightings occurred sequentially from approximately 10:30 p.m. to 11:50 p.m. The flight path was a consistent line over the closely clustered towns. There can be no doubt something was there. Phil Imbrogno has gathered many examples of this type of incident in 1983 and 1984 over Duchess, Putnam and Westchester counties of New York. At times of peak frequency, reports of this type of overflight occurred more than twice a week. George Lesnick has made inquiries at local police departments in these counties. He has spoken to police officers who saw the object. As mentioned, the New York State Police and local police chiefs at first attempted to officially explain the sightings as "ultra- light" aircraft. More recently the official explanations have stated that the sightings were due to a formation of light planes coming out of Stormville Airport in New York. An FAA inquiry was initiated and it came to light that a group of pilots, flying light aircraft, had often flown over the same areas in close formation. The light planes appeared flying at both high and low altitudes several times, and many people, including police officers, had seen both the planes and the "UFO" separately and reported that, again, there was no confusing the two. As early as April 23, 1983, both Phil Imbrogno and myself received reports of "very low flying Cessnas" from a police officer and from an amateur astronomer in the New Fairfield, Conneticut area. This formation of planes was readily identified as such by both witnesses and was not referred to as being a UFO. Surprisingly, some local police officers (who witnessed the UFO themselves) claim, somewhat angrily, that their superiors had instructed them to say it was an airplane or an ultra-light plane. Some officers reported that their chiefs had been approached by federal authorities who were attempting to "keep a lid" on the unusual activity. Investigations into the identities and motivations of the "formation flying" pilots have been clouded, perhaps deliberately, but one salient fact has emerged: these flights were never noticed until after the UFO reports of March and April, 1983. Since the characteristics of those UFO reports could not be duplicated by any regular aircraft formations, either the pilots are hoaxers trying to imitate the reported UFO or they are part of a well-conceived plan to present a "rational" explanation for the unusual activity. Such an explanation could help to keep the public calm in the face of the unknown. And, it could give defense analysts some breathing room. It is reported that UFOs have caused profound alarm at higher levels of military intelligence centers. They have interfered with the operation of long-range ballistic missile implacements. They have landed near military bases. Numerous unsuccessful interceptions have been attempted. These facts are very well documented in two books: Casebook of a UFO Investigator by Raymond Fowler and Clear Intent by Larry Fawcett and Barry Greenwood, both published by Prentice-Hall Inc. (Englewood Cliffs, N.J. 07632). A study of these two books should give anyone the foundation of an understanding of the UFO phenomenon. SEPTEMBER 23rd, 1983: At about 11:00 p.m. on the night of September 23rd, 1983, three girls and the mother of one left a dance at the Sandy Hook, Conneticut high school. As they proceeded through Sandy Hook and onto the Highway I-84 overpass, one of the girls saw a "UFO" almost directly over Sandy Hook. Excitedly, she told the others, while watching it from the rear window of the car. They began making fun of her until they, too, saw the object. The mother, driving the car, turned left onto Walnut Tree Hill Road. Suddenly they all began seeing the object off to their right, between the trees along the road. The mother stopped the car, but refused to allow the girls to get out. All four watched as the object silently flew almost directly overhead and back towards I-84. All agreed that it appeared to be very large, kite-like, with four steady, glowing lights (two red, two blue). The "leading point" of the object in flight was a red light, the two "tips" were blue and the "tail" was red. They were steady and did not blink. The lights were described as "too close together to be several planes in formation, but too far apart to be one single plane." As the object moved over to the left side of the car, the trailing red light went out. The witnesses estimate that the object was now over Highway I-84. It appeared to be a large triangle, with a red light at the apex and two blue lights at the "wingtips." The blue lights then went out, followed by the disappearance of the leading red light. At approximately this same time, a woman graduate student of the University of Conneticut, 33 years old, saw the object as she was driving on I-84. She reported three unusual lights (a red and two blues) to the Newton Police Department. She hurriedly exited the highway near the Grand Union store and as she did, she noticed the two blue lights go out and then the red light also went out. She felt as if "the thing" had disappeared. She noticed other people on the road slowing down, as if also watching it, and talked with another woman at the supermarket who had seen "it," too. The police dispatcher from nearby Newton told her that there had been two other sightings of a large unknown object in the past two weeks, but advised her to relax because whatever it was, the FAA was tracking it. Barbara Allen, a resident of Sandy Hook, her daughter and her son also saw the object at approximately the same time, while traveling eastbound on I-84 in the same area. The daughter, bright for her eleven years, wrote a most cogent report: "I was thinking about falling asleep. Then I saw a bright light above a hill and I thought it was a radar tower. As we drove along, it was going along the same way we were and it was very big or at least bigger than a large plane. We got off at Exit 10 and stopped to look at it. It was a triangular shape and had one red light and two blue lights. As we were watching it, the lights seemed to fade away. I know they (it) didn't go behind a cloud because it was a totally clear night." All agreed that what they saw was unusual and that it was unlike anything they had seen before. After stopping at the bottom of Exit 10, they watched as it hovered over them briefly and then moved slowly away. Barbara talked with a teenager standing on the opposite side of the road, who had also seen "it." The last report from the Sandy Hook area that night came from a self employed construction worker who, at age 28, runs his own concrete business. Paul Valliquette of Meriden, Conneticut was on his way home from a job when he saw it. Without fear, but with a lot of curiosity, Paul stopped his truck on I-84, got out and proceeded to get a very good look at the object at close range, with its lights on and after they went off. He gave a very concise report of an extremely large, metallic object. Using hand widths and angular measurements (he saw it hovering in front of a nearby hill), the dimensions of the object were computed by him to be approximately 800 feet across, 500 feet long, and approximately 50 to 100 feet in thickness. This seems ludicrously large, but almost every witness reported similar dimensions. "As large as a football field" was a common comparison. Paul watched the huge object for about five minutes. "It" had doused its lights, but in the moonlight he could see a "huge, grey metallic object." Suddenly its lights came back on and it "moved very swiftly" to the west at the same low altitude. Paul stated, "On a soft arc, it lifted up towards the stars and became the size of a pin head in a matter of five to ten seconds." The acceleration was short-lived, extremely rapid, and silent. It stopped abruptly, seemingly miles away, at about sixty degrees above the horizon over the area of Ridgefield, CT. At this point, Paul perceived it to be much like a star, giving off multicolored lights. The reports from each of the two nights are not isolated to the witnesses mentioned. Media articles appeared in the Bridgeport Post of August 22, 1983; in the Meridian Record Journal of August 24 and in the New Haven Journal Courier of August 23. Again in September, reports appeared in the New Haven Register on the 24th and in the Newton Bee on the 30th. Police departments received numerous calls about the object in all the towns mentioned. It is estimated that there were several hundred witnesses in August and somewhat less in September. These two nights are typical of many. Phil Imbrogno, the most persistent and perhaps most experienced investigator, has looked thoroughly into numerous sets of similar reports over Westchester, Putnam and Duchess counties of New York. The record of his investigations, along with photographs, taped testimony and police officer observations checked by Lt. Lesnick, leaves little room for "conventional explanations." My own investigations into the object's appearances included interviews of more than fifty witnesses, taped and written testimony, drawings and other records of reports. I met several times with Phil Imbrogno and George Lesnick and consulted with other investigators and journalists in gathering and comparing information. I also consulted with several experienced aerospace and astronautical engineers. They agreed, after reviewing the reports, that those describing a large, low-flying, structured object could not be explained by aircraft activity. One suggestion was that the object might be a very large, parawing surveillance craft, powered by newly developed brushless DC electric motors. Although an attractive concept, this proposal has several serious drawbacks. Such craft are still in the experimental stage and are being developed solely for the military. What would they be doing cruising low over the affluent suburbs of Westchester and Fairfield? Such surveillance drones are designed to be unobtrusive and cannot duplicate many of the reported maneuvers of the "Westchester Wing." Surveillance aircraft used at low altitudes are much smaller in size than the reported UFO. The general consensus is that a structured object of the reported size and characteristics of the "Westchester Wing" was beyond our present technological capabilities. Other aspects of the situation surfaced. On three separate occasions I encountered direct evidence of covert FBI interest in investigations into the sightings. One evening I found myself being interviewed by a person representing herself to be a MUFON investigator (MUFON is a UFO group based in Texas with branches throughout the U.S.). While we spoke, an FBI agent was sitting at the next table, listening intently. This was verified by local police officers who had an ongoing interest in the investigation and in the presence of the agent, but especially since he had not officially notified them of his presence and intent. Other agents were identified through license plate checks. The shadow cast by the presence of federal agencies interested in the UFO phenomenon has a definite outline, although the complete image is still unknown. SUMMARY It can be stated that many thousands of individuals in the New York/Conneticut area were witness to an unusual aerial object in 1983 and 1984. The object was consistently described as extremely large, structured, "V" shaped, silent and flying slowly at low altitudes. It also was seen to accelerate "very, very quickly," to rotate on its axis in flight, make abrupt right- angle turns, hover motionlessly and display variable lighting as well as "searchlight-like" beams extending to the ground. Within one month of the first of these reports, certain pilots began flying light aircraft out of Stormville and other small airports in formations over the same areas. They refused to identify themselves to civilian investigators and several times avoided state and local police waiting for them by diverting to land at other airports. Investigations into their identities, led by lawyer Peter Gersten, have linked them, it is said, with the CIA. Several researchers experienced covert attempts of being followed and falsely interviewed. Investigations into this activity showed these attempts to be the actions of FBI employees. Numerous police officers, themselves witnesses of the unknown object, reported attempted censorship by superiors. They also reported, in several separate townships, approaches to police chiefs by federal agents allegedly attempting to cover up and explain away reports. What were we experiencing? At this point we can only say that we were witnessing what appears to be a very large, structured vehicle which flew low over populated areas, displayed unusual lights perhaps to deliberately attract attention to it. What it was, where it was from and who was or is behind its activities is all still entirely unknown. Someone or something seemed to be trying to get our attention. Once attending, we found ourselves even further entranced with the implications of its appearance. We need to clearly separate what we know from what we may imagine. UFOs have somehow managed to consistently attract a low level of public attention for years. For some reason, this particular wave of activity seemed to be more open and intense. Too many witnesses had seen the object for it to be explained away as an "ultra-light aircraft." Too many witnesses, among them pilots and aeronautical engineers, had seen the unknown object display characteristics completely beyond the capabilities of "light aircraft formations." Whether one chooses to believe the explanations or to believe in UFOs is no longer a cogent approach. One does not "believe in" helicopters. One can only accept the evidence, all of the evidence, in showing UFO activity occurred on a surprisingly consistent and prolonged basis in 1983 and 1984 over the New York/Conneticut area. We cannot define completely the nature of this activity at this time. We can, however, closely examine the evidence gathered. And, thanks to the efforts of Philip Imbrogno, George Lesnick and others, that evidence is considerable. Using what we know are verified reports, we can make some reasonable statements and deductions about it. It seems clear that an unknown agency was displaying what we call a UFO to thousands of individuals in the densely populated New York/Conneticut area. The displays were consistent and presumably were attention seeking, particularly by the object turning its lights on and off. If it did not want to be seen, we may presume, it would not have illuminated itself at all. The object was seen only at night and seemed to have no clearly detectable purpose for flying low over populated areas except, perhaps, to demonstrate unusually high performance flight characteristics. The object was huge: one witness, Mr. Valiquette, compared it to the size of three jumbo jet 747 aircraft lined up in a row. The extreme size of the object and its unusual and unbelievable flight characteristics invite us to be in awe of its presence. At the same time, it did not display itself in daylight or, as far as we know, it never made contact with the ground; its presence did not create hysteria, rather it seems we were gently introduced, over a period of many months, to the reality of its existence. The UFO phenomenon has been following this modus operendi for many years. In New England the manifestations of this particular UFO showed a greater frequency, a greater consistency and a greater duration than previous UFO waves. We might deduce that the UFO phenomenon is accelerating its program. We might consider that our reaction to the phenomenon could be just as important as our realization of its actual nature. SPECULATION There are reports that: Minuteman missile systems have had their command and control computer systems crashed by the appearances of UFOs; UFOs have effortlessly destroyed antiaircraft missiles launched at them over Korea, over Belgium, over Moscow; jet fighters launched at them over the United States and the Soviet Union have been lost in interception attempts; electromagnetic communications and radar have been totally jammed at military bases for hours during UFO appearances; and UFOs have closely overflown and landed near military bases throughout the world. At the same time UFOs have made appearances to isolated individuals and have overflown towns and cities without displaying hostility. Perhaps we are being slowly and gently introduced to a superior culture which will not allow nuclear conflict on our planet. Our adolescence may be over. It may be that we shall resolve our international differences and go on to an eventual open and peaceful contact. It may also happen that we may be involved in a nuclear conflict. Such an event presumably could be stopped by the UFO "agency," since it has shown the capability for intervention. An intervention on this scale would be a tremendous shock to humanity. The Westchester overflights, the Exeter, NH sightings of the last decade, and the reports of UFO appearances in the past several decades may be designed to cushion that shock. Perhaps time will tell. ================================================================= Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!think.com!rpi!masscomp!peora!tous!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: INFO: West NY UFO sightings part 2 Message-ID: <1991Sep28.193155.12006@bilver.uucp> Date: 28 Sep 91 19:31:55 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 810 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2197 alt.conspiracy:7684 sci.skeptic:15653 -----Westchester/NY sightings part 2 ------------------------------ THE WESTCHESTER WING - PART II The wave of UFO activity characterized as the "Westchester Wing" has carried on into 1985, although the magnitude of the wave seems to have diminished. There have been several unusual incidents which serve to highlight covert federal interests not only in "coverup" attempts but also in active pursuit of the object(s). It has become increasingly obvious to investigators that the federal government not only is almost frantically attempting to explain away and deny the phenomenon, but also to tap the efforts of those less restricted (civilian) investigators. This has, at times, led to some humorous situations. At one point, in a conversation with Bob Girard about the implications of this surveillance, I jokingly said that I really had no problem with it, as I belonged to the "KSP." Bob asked what that was. I calmly replied that the KSP was the "Krypton Special Police," assigned to investigate the investigators of UFO investigators. Whoever was listening in overreacted as our line was immediately cut and I was left with a dead phone. Lt. Lesnick, tired of being followed whenever he went to interview witnesses, decided to get even. He had his followers tailed. For several weeks up to five cars played Keystone cops across the Conneticut and New York countryside. Phil Imbrogno, amazed, watched a helicopter slowly drifting over his residence as an individual inside pointed a camera at him. Quickly, Phil ran for a camera to point back at them. Heedless of this merriment, the "Wing" continued appearing, making friends among the populace and causing alarm to the establishment. The implications of all this, and the details of the actions of both the UFOs and the people involved with them provides us with a rich field of information. There is a great deal to learn here, not only about our "visitors," but about ourselves. When I say "making friends among the populace" I mean it literally. In many cases involving this "Westchester Wing," as with other UFO appearances over the years, there is evidence of what we call "psychic" interaction between the witnesses and the object. There have been many cases, some of which will be detailed here, where this interaction took place. For instance, the object has been noted to recede in distance when witnesses become fearful, come closer when they desired a better look, and respond to witness viewing positions with maneuvers and displays of lights. The object has hovered over residences of families who had noticed it slowly following them home. It has even hovered at less than 500 feet altitude a short distance from homes until whole families gathered to watch. Then, slowly cruising directly over, it displayed itself with breathtaking effects and beautiful lights. The wing shaped arrays of light are multicolored, strong but with a soft glow and are almost entrancing. These lights are turned on and off, again in direct correlation to the presence of witnesses. Someone, it seems, is saying hello. Someone is also paying very close attention to our nuclear weapons storage areas. Someone is providing periodic demonstrations of ability to quickly and easily nullify ballistic missile installations, antiaircraft missile launches and jet aircraft interception attempts. This activity has been going on for years but it is only recently that investigators have been able to get solid information about it and to make that information more available to the public. The wave of activity involving the "Westchester Wing" comes at just this time of growing public awareness. This UFO wave has been identified by J. Allen Hynek as one of the largest and most consistent displays in history. It has been centered over one of the most affluent and influential population centers in the nation. We must ask ourselves whether or not all this can be coincidental. There have been numerous appearances of the "Wing" in 1985, but, as stated, the reports have decreased in number. I shall concentrate on three specific events of note; a very dramatic incident over the Indian Point nuclear facility, a sighting over Meriden, Conneticut involving an untraceable military helicopter and an unusually well-planned example of efforts to divert attention from the real phenomenon. These cases will provide a focus for what seems to be the fading of this particular wave of UFO activity. As other investigators, particularly Jacques Vallee, have noted, UFOs generally seem to present themselves with periodic waves in both time and location. This wave may now have served its purpose: the reinforcement of the almost mythological reality of the UFO phenomenon. The three examples shall detail some reactions of established social groups, primarily those concerned with government and national security. Before going into depth with those examples, let's look more closely at the reactions of local groups and individuals, especially those individuals who observed the "Wing" at close range. The reactions of local police were touched on in the previous article. Many police officers who were witnesses to the low overflights of the UFO were adamant in their statements. They agreed that what they saw was not a plane or groups of planes. One officer reported a very large, structured craft which glided silently over his cruiser, stopped, rotated on its axis, and moved slowly over his position again. Many other patrolmen who had seen only the formations of planes were just as convinced that the whole thing could be explained as aircraft. In early 1983, when the UFO overflights began, the first explanation offered was that the sightings could be explained by the presence of ultralight aircraft. Just as this was being publicized as untenable (largely through the efforts of Phil Imbrogno), the formations of Cessna aircraft began to be noticed. It is important to note that these formations of aircraft had not been widely seen nor reported in the media until more than a month after the first reported UFO sightings over Yorktown, N.Y. Since that time there have been many reports, both of a very large, low, dark object variously illuminated and of close formations of light aircraft, flying at five to seven thousand feet, displaying non-regulation lights. Many witnesses, some of them pilots themselves, reported having seen both displays. They agreed that there was no confusing the two. While the majority of the population in the area where the highest number of reported sightings has seen nothing, a significantly large minority has viewed and reported definitely seeing an unusual object(s). Throughout the summer and fall of 1983 and well into 1984 the UFO wave gained momentum. Local media reports, witness reports and intensive investigation by Lesnick and Imbrogno became the talk of many social gatherings. It became fashionable to discuss the subject and debate the pros and cons of its real nature. Local newspapers did yeoman service in presenting many of the aspects of the situation. Independent radio and television stations followed the activity, often interviewing Lt. Lesnick and Imbrogno. The "V" shaped displays of lights continued. Those who saw them were often professional people whose articulate reports were difficult to discount. It became easier, as reports came in, to separate the planes from the UFO. Often the witnesses themselves knew the difference. The area where these reports were most concentrated included Westchester, Putnam and Duchess counties of New York and Fairfield County in Conneticut. These four counties are closely clustered around New York City. The media there receive much more national attention and were reluctant to get involved with the whole subject. City journalists who spoke to investigators said they frankly didn't know what to think. There were several times that major television networks mentioned the reports. These came after evenings where the witnesses numbered in the thousands. But these were isolated dates and the networks made no effort to follow up or clarify their brief airings. All but one of the major newspapers of the city made little or no effort to publish the numerous reports. The New York Times published two well written items discussing the activity. These appeared on April 17, 1983, near the beginning of the true UFO wave and on September 11, 1984, as the wave continued but as reports of the aircraft became more numerous. The reports of low overflights of the large, structured UFO often referred to strong thoughts and feelings by the individuals involved. Often the UFO seemed to respond to these thoughts and in some cases to initiate them. Many witnesses noticed more direct interaction than the obvious light displays and maneuvers. Bill Hele works as meteorologist for the National Weather Corporation at Westchester Airport. On the evening of March 24, 1983, he was driving along the Taconic State Parkway in Westchester County, N.Y. when he saw the object. "I've been around aircraft all my life and I can honestly say I've never seen anything like it," he stated. "I had the feeling of being stared at, analyzed and rejected. It wasn't a dangerous feeling, but I had the feeling of being examined head to toe. There was a series of lights, maybe a half a dozen in a row, with one or two hanging on the end like a pendant. They went out for 15 to 20 seconds and reappeared with no sound. There was no shadow, no silhouette, no nothing. Just lights, but they were changing multiprismatically. We're talking a magnitude of a quarter mile long or longer of lights...It caught me by total surprise." Hele's experience was mentioned in the September issue of Omni magazine and again in the Hartford Courant of August 16, 1984. As the sightings continued, there were no more people who noticed an almost "psychic" interaction with the object. Approximately ten percent of the witnesses reported definite correlations between their thoughts and the actions of the "Wing." On March 17, 1983, between 7 and 10 p.m., several hundred people in the area of Brewster, N.Y. watched as a large "V" shaped array of lights cruised low over the town and nearby Interstate 84. One witness, Dennis Sant, got an extremely good look at it. He and his family were coming home from church when they saw the object hovering near their home. As they got closer to the house, it seemed to disappear. Thinking that was all there was to see, they went inside. Soon Sant felt an impulse to go back outside and walked out his front door. As he glanced in the direction of nearby I-84, he was a large "boomerang" shaped object hovering silently less than 200 feet over the highway. It had red, white, blue and green lights on its "wings" and a large yellow light in the middle. People on the road were stopping, exiting their cars and staring at it. Sant remembers wishing he could get a better look. Immediately after his thought, the craft made a sharp turn and slowly moved directly towards him. It lost altitude until it was about thirty feet from him and less than 100 feet up. Now it stopped and resumed hovering for approximately one minute. Then it began slowly moving over his back yard, emitting a soft hum. Sant was able to jog almost directly under it and saw a dark, grey metallic structure. The object again stopped and hovered and Sant backed away from beneath it. As his family and neighbors watched, it suddenly shot down a brilliant beam, illuminating the entire yard for approximately thirty seconds. It then slowly moved away towards the north, gaining altitude. Many more such "interactive" cases could be presented here, but I prefer to discuss one with which I am most familiar -- my own. As described in my previous article, I too got a good look at the "Wing" in late August of 1983. Several hundred people saw the object that night over a cluster of Conneticut towns that included New Haven, Orange, Milford, Bridgeport, Monroe and Stratford. I interviewed many of them on tape. We all saw the same thing and many of us had similar reactions. I was home alone that night on the third floor of my residence in the north end of Bridgeport, near St. Vincent's Hospital. Strangely enough, just before I saw it, I was reviewing some notes I'd made after speaking with Lt. Lesnick about the wave of "Wing" reports. Deciding to take a break, I walked to my north window. Suddenly three lights appeared, seemingly low over the rooftops to the northwest. I told myself I was seeing a light plane, but immediately dismissed the idea as the lights were too widely spaced and were drifting very slowly to my left. Just as I became intensely curious, the lights went out. Hoping to see them again, I moved to my bedroom and the west window. As I looked out, directly over my neighbor's house, the lights reappeared. They were much closer now, stationary and about twenty to twenty-five degrees above the horizon. I was amazed. Here I was, a man whose hobby is UFOs, apparently seeing one. The lights sat there, the left one red, the middle one green, the right one blue. Abruptly, I began speaking aloud, "If you are what I think you are, tell me somehow that I'm not hallucinating." The lights seemed to react; the green slowly faded out, came back on and they all faded. Immediately I received a strong impression to move back to the north window. The impression was so abrupt and so clearly not my own thought that I started to resist it even as I began to move to the next window. Excitement and curiosity overcame me, however, and I quickly moved to the forward room and leaned out the open window. An immense, wing shaped array of lights greeted me. Later I calculated that the object supporting the lights must have moved sideways and forwards at least one-quarter-of-a-mile in the few seconds it took me to move from the west to the north window. It was now almost directly overhead, between myself and nearby St. Vincent's hospital. It was moving slowly, silently, apex forward, directly to the east. I had several reactions. I was conscious of a very focused and somehow logical presence, but my mind was only secondarily aware of this. I had worked as a quality control engineer and had grown up in an Air Force family. I first realized that this "wing," if that was what it was, could not be an airfoil. It was moving too slowly to hold itself up. I was also busily engaged trying to line up reference points, judge how many hand widths it took up, etc., so that I could later trigonometrically figure out its actual dimensions. It seemed very large and very low. For approximately 20 to 30 seconds it drifted over and then suddenly the lights dimmed and went out. I strained to see a shape or structure, but could not. In all the excitement, I hadn't thought to find a camera. I quickly walked to the phone, noting the time from the wall clock and called Lt. George Lesnick. After a brief talk, I walked outside and towards the area where it had "disappeared." I spent a long time, at least half an hour, standing in an open area, wondering, hoping it would come back. It had definitely impressed me, "psychically" and otherwise. As I previously mentioned, I spent a good deal of time on the phone that night, calling the local police and airports, finding that many others were also seeing it. There are numerous other examples of the interactive nature of this wave of UFO activity. In July of 1984 I interviewed a family of four living in the suburbs of Danbury, Conneticut. The husband had been leaving work later than usual and was moving out of the parking lot when he noticed some odd looking lights in the nearby sky. At first he paid little attention to them, thinking only that a plane was flying around at low altitude. As he drove home (a trip of several minutes) he began noticing that the lights seemed to be pacing him. Still he took little notice until he pulled into his driveway and got out of his car. He then could clearly see a huge array of colored lights drifting slowly towards his house. Calling his wife and children, they all gathered on the back porch just as the object came directly over them. It was clearly triangular in shape and as it moved overhead it executed an abrupt ninety degree turn without slowing or showing a turn radius. The husband described the turn, "The tip of the triangle was moving in the direction of flight when the thing seemed to slowly rotate on its central axis, so that the tip was finally pointing ninety degrees from where it started. Then, without any change in speed, just as the tip completed its rotation, the thing just moved off in a completely separate direction, back over the front of my house." The couple had spoken to only a few close friends about the incident and seemed relieved to hear that many other people were having similar experiences in the area. While this case doesn't necessarily show interaction of a "psychic" nature, there certainly appears to have been a specific display for a specific group of witnesses. The family felt no fear of the object and it displayed no hostility. Again we can say it seems someone, using a clearly unknown and very impressive technology, may be saying "hello" at such a level so as not to disturb society as a whole. The apparently immense craft has yet to land in the center of town in broad daylight. Human nature and our current cultural consensus could conceivably make such an event an unmanageable chaos. Whoever is "saying hello" presumably knows us well and seems to be showing great care in letting us get gradually and comfortably acquainted with it or them. We should attempt here a closer approximation to the actual structure of the object displaying the lights. "Westchester Wing" is a term I coined simply because most of the reports were coming from Westchester residents and most of the reports describing a wing or boomerang shaped display of lights. Only a relatively few reports refer to a structure. The most common descriptions of the structure itself are: huge, dark metallic grey, a grid or lattice underneath, tubular attachments and circular attachments. Descriptions vary as to the actual outline of the object or objects. Phil Imbrogno has deduced from computer studies of reported times, areas, durations and frequencies that we may be dealing with as many as three different UFOs, all with similar characteristics. One witness I interviewed gave some pertinent clues about the ambiguity of the actual shape or structure of the unknown object. The report came from a professional woman living near Goshen, Conneticut. Between 9:00 and 10:00 p.m., on September 17th, 1984, she was driving along a fairly deserted road outside of Goshen when she saw a long string of glowing white lights paralleling her car just over the treetops on the side of the road. She slowed to get a better look and as she did so the lights moved directly over her car, changing in shape to resemble a very large "horse shoe." They remained hovering like this for approximately two minutes. A pickup truck approached from the opposite lane and continued on down the road. As it disappeared, the lights seemed to "uncoil" and form a "V" shape, which then very rapidly moved away to the south. The woman was convinced that the lights were all attached to one object as their relative distance from one another never varied, only their configuration. Within an hour of her sighting, reports were received from several hundred people in the areas of Southington and Southbury, Conneticut, approximately thirty miles away. From all the available reports of these definitely unidentified objects, we can deduce only two possibilities. Either there are several structurally different UFOs or there is one very large UFO which appears to change shape using a variable lighting display. The first of the previously mentioned three incidents of 1985 on which we'll focus actually took place in the summer of 1984, but only came to public attention in January 1985. On January 12, 1985, two newspapers ran similar headlines. They were startling and controversial. "NUKE PLANT GUARDS REPORT HOVERING UFOS" appeared in the Journal-News of Nyack, NY "UFOS -- DID ALIENS BUZZ INDIAN POINT PLANT?" read the Reporter Dispatch of White Plains, New York. Again it was through the tireless efforts of Phil Imbrogno that these incidents came to light. both articles said basically the same thing. The stories were presented fairly, with both sides of the question aired. Plant authorities basically denied and downplayed the incident. Imbrogno stated that on July 24, 1984, a huge "V" shaped object slowly descended to within 300 yards of the nuclear plant. Guards became alarmed, shotguns were issued and nearby Fort Smith was alerted. John Branciforte, security coordinator at Indian Point, stated: He (Imbrogno) could possibly be making it up or he took what they (witnesses) gave him and stretched it out. I think people are going to publish stories on hysteria and misinformation. As far as I'm concerned, it's purely speculation." The real story, related by Lt. George Lesnick, sounds almost like science fiction. Lesnick was with Imbrogno when they investigated the incident. They interviewed six of the fifteen guards involved. They found more than twenty other witnesses in residences near the installation. And they found definite indications of a coverup, of jobs threatened, of an almost frantic effort to keep the real story from surfacing. Whether or not federal authorities were involved wasn't determined, but certainly responsible officials denied the known facts and even came close to slander. From all that I know of the case, it seems some of the officials, uninformed of the real nature of the events, simply tried to explain it away on the basis of their own preconceptions. As in many UFO cases, there seems to have been two types of coverup: official denial of the facts by those who should be aware of them and denial of the facts by those whose access to them was not direct. The second manifestation of our desire to create and maintain a comfortable cultural consensus, whereas the first is purposeful deception and is not so easily forgiven. George Lesnick had worked as a police officer for the town of Fairfield, Conneticut for twenty nine years, rising to the rank of Lieutenant before retiring in July of 1985. He is a healthy, robust, straightforward man who had received numerous commendations for his police work. He had been instrumental in saving lives, solving kidnap cases and generally serving his community as a dedicated and professional police officer. His comments and investigations on a case are those of a professional investigator. He does not "stretch facts." If George is not absolutely sure of his material, he does not speculate. It is with this in mind that I relate the events that actually led to the January headlines in those New York papers. I spoke with George several times to get the facts of the incident straight. In October of 1984, George, Phil Imbrogno and J. Allen Hynek were being interviewed on a late night radio show in New York. Lee Spiegel of NBC had all three men on a telephone hookup to discuss the now twenty month long wave of UFO activity involving the "Westchester Wing." After the show, the investigators received fifteen calls. One came from a man who George named "Deep Throat." He was a security officer at the Indian Point nuclear facility. He had something he wanted to talk about with the investigators. A time and a place were arranged for an interview. No one but Lesnick, Imbrogno and the guard knew of the meeting. The officer indicated he would have several other guards with him. George and Phil arrived at the meeting to find six guards from the plant and, surprisingly, lawyer Peter Gersten. Accompanying Gersten was the same woman who had interviewed me the year before, posing as a MUFON investigator. (As related in my previous article, she was accompanied at that time by an FBI agent, sitting quietly at the next table, unnoticed by myself but under surveillance by local plainclothes police. George later informed me that he, too, had been invited to that first meeting, but had declined>) As the two investigators entered the diner that had been set up as the rendezvous, they noticed Gersten and his friend, and somewhat surprised, began to talk with them. "Deep Throat" came over and introduced himself and indicated where the other five guards were sitting. At this point Gersten seemed to try to take over and manage the meeting, inviting everyone to sit at his previously reserved table. Lesnick interrupted and insisted on separating the witnesses, so as to get a clearer look at how their stories compared. He took three and Phil took three, leaving Gersten and his friend somewhat at a loss. The story that came forth was startling but not so unfamiliar to those aware of how authorities at higher levels react to the presence of UFOs at "sensitive" installations. To be fair I attempted to contact the woman involved. It took some time, but I found her Conneticut address, mailed her a letter and got no response. I drove to her house, dropped a note asking her to call me (along with a copy of my previous PURSUIT article). She did call, but quickly denied being aware of any FBI involvement and hung up before I could ask about her being at the Indian Point meeting. Maybe she's being set up, maybe she's actively involved, but certainly she pops up under unusual circumstances asking informed questions about UFOs. She is not an investigator for MUFON as she told me. This I confirmed through Marge Christensen, MUFON state coordinator for Massachusetts. Perhaps I am mistaken. Perhaps she has a sincere interest in UFOs. Having met her, I would say her interest is sincere, but then so is the interest of the FBI -- they just don't seem to be able to admit it. All six guards related the same basic story. Phil and George questioned them for nearly two hours. On the evening of July 24, 1984, a huge, V shaped object, displaying two rows of bright, glowing lights, slowly approached the nuclear plant. It descended to an altitude of less than 500 feet and approached the facility to within 100 yards. The second shift security officers at first could not believe it. The object then stopped and hovered over them, emitting a low humming noise. The men became nervous as the object continued to hover and someone gave the order to issue shotguns. Fifteen guards were involved and as the object remained stationary they became very nervous. Another order was issued to contact nearby Fort Smith. As the now thoroughly shaken guards watched, the object continued to hover almost directly overhead. After approximately 15 minutes the object slowly drifted away and then abruptly accelerated upwards and to the northwest. The security officers interviewed were all relieved that no one had ordered them to fire upon the craft, but admitted that they were keyed up enough that they would have, had it been deemed necessary. The two investigators made appointments with some of the witnesses to meet again, and "Deep Throat" called them several more times. In his last call he said he could no longer talk or meet with Lesnick or Imbrogno, as his job was in jeopardy. Neither of the investigators could reach any of those they had interviewed earlier. They were simply told by powerplant authorities that the men were unavailable for comment and could not come to the phone. When asked about possible films from the plant's security cameras, the same officials replied that the cameras had not been working that night due to a technical malfunction. Lesnick was told the cameras "weren't loaded" at the time. As a professional police officer, he found this explanation difficult to believe. Considering the current protests about nuclear power facilities, and the resultant activity of demonstrators that appear around such plants, a "malfunction of security cameras" is not likely. Security at sensitive installations has also been intensified due to ongoing threats of terrorist activity. The second incident of note took place over Meriden, Conneticut early in April of 1985. At the time I was working as a technical supervisor at an engineering company in Meriden. Many of my fellow employees knew of my interest in UFOs and would occasionally drop in to my office to discuss the subject. That morning, as I was walking towards my work area, a secretary approached me to relate a UFO sighting she, a friend and her friend's father had experienced less than nine hours before. As I briefly questioned her it became apparent that what she had seen fit the "V" shaped object category. The three witnesses had seen the object moving slowly, apex towards the ground, near the junction of the Merritt Parkway (Highway 15) and I-91 (Interstate Highway to Hartford). Since this was near our plant, I took the opportunity to drive over to the area at coffee break. As I looked around for powerlines or other features, I suddenly noticed a very low flying helicopter of unusual design. I am fairly familiar with aircraft but could not at first identify this one. It appeared to be a military aircraft of gunship design. Stopping my car, I got out and viewed the aircraft through binoculars. It seemed to be making a sweep of the area and was at less than 300 feet altitude. As it made a second pass near my position, I could clearly see it, indeed, was of a military gunship design, painted a dark blue and showing commercial NS numbers in red. I noted the numbers and returned to work as the helicopter slowly moved away to the north at the same low altitude. Back at the office, I had little time to really think about it, but I was almost sure that there was a connection between the UFO sighting of the previous evening and the appearance of the unusual aircraft. Around two that afternoon, an engineer coworker dropped by to tell me that he and his wife were sure they had seen a UFO early that morning. It turned out to have the same characteristics as the one seen by the secretary, but it was seen six hours after hers and was not moving slowly at all. In fact, the engineer and his wife were at first convinced they were watching a low flying delta winged bomber except that after very quickly traversing the Meriden area, it had stopped abruptly and hovered, again over the area of the highway junction. The helicopter had arrived no more than five hours after the sighting. This was too much for me to ignore, so I called the Bridgeport Air Registry Service and gave them the NS numbers I had noted. I asked who might be flying the craft that day over Meriden. After several minutes they replied that I must be mistaken because the only helicopter with that registry number was owned by an individual in Torrance, California. Now I really became curious. What was a very expensive military helicopter doing low over Meriden, Conneticut, flying a search pattern in exactly the same area as of a UFO report only hours old? What private individual could afford it, get clearance to buy it, ship it from coast to coast and then casually use it to seemingly track UFOs? This was too much. I didn't give up, but I eventually did find myself, basically, chasing my own tail. I called the Sikorsky Aircraft plant, the Army and Air National Guard in Hartford, the State Police, the Coast Guard at East Haven, the New Haven airport, the Hartford airport (all in Conneticut) and finally another investigator in Long Island. I got nowhere. Nobody had heard of, seen or had any record of such a helicopter. Finally I called Torrance, California and asked for the number of the man listed as the registered owner. There were two listings for that name. I called them both. The first man laughed and said he sure would like to own a helicopter, but he didn't think he could handle the payments. The second politely said no, he didn't fly and that I must be mistaken. I struck out. Whatever happened, three things stand out: the reported UFO apparently was our old friend, the "Wing;" the helicopter was almost as unusual as the UFO itself; the coincidence of the UFO and the gunship being in exactly the same area within hours of each other is difficult to explain. Almost as an afterthought, I might add that military helicopters of gunship design are not usually painted dark blue and they definitely do not display civilian registration numbers in bright red paint. You can draw your own conclusions! The third incident of note in 1985 really didn't involve the "Westchester Wing" directly, but it certainly gives a very clear example of the extreme efforts being made to dismiss and explain away this wave of UFO activity. It began in February of 1985. I was being interviewed by Jim Montavalli, managing editor of The Fairfield Advocate, about the UFO activity. I had contacted him, presented him with the evidence I had gathered, and asked if he was interested in an article for his paper. I found Jim to be an interested and unbiased man, and he ran an enthusiastic three page article on Feb. 20th. I impressed upon him the fact that the two most informed and active investigators of this UFO wave were Lt. Lesnick and Phil Imbrogno. Montavalli contacted them and arranged for an hour long television interview on his weekly program "What Do You Think?" The show was well advertised for a week in advance and was presented live on WUBC, Channel 12 from 8:00 to 9:00 p.m. on the evening of March 20th. Just as the show ended and everyone was leaving an apparently immense ring of slow moving lights came on directly over the Bridgeport studio. From Bridgeport the formation of unusual lights moved over New Haven and into central Conneticut, putting on a display seen by many hundreds of people. I saw them while on route 34 near New Haven and watched them carefully as they moved over New Haven and then inland. The display lasted approximately seven minutes from my position and very nearly caused several accidents as drivers pulled over to watch. Alas, it was not a UFO. It took me several minutes, bus as the formation turned over New Haven, I realized they must be aircraft. There were eight of them, and their precision was almost perfect until the turn. Then four of the planes drifted slightly apart from the other four before reforming. The next day headlines throughout Conneticut loudly condemned these formation flying fools for nearly causing accidents on highways throughout the state. Demands were made for an FAA investigation. The pilots were never found. The origin of the aircraft remains a mystery. That they were aircraft is certain. Paul Estefan, administrator of Danbury, Conneticut Municipal Airport, dispatched a plane to track the lights and the pilot tracked them to two airports in New York state. But Estefan refused to name the airports, saying that the pilots had not really broken any laws. Was it rally a coincidence that these planes put on a display that began just as the Channel 12 show ended? Was it really a coincidence that immediately after Lesnick and Imbrogno presented the evidence of two years of solid investigation, the perfect and easily accepted explanation causally flew over? Was it really a coincidence that this aircraft formation flew over the exact area where the TV show was being seen? From years of patient inquiry into the UFO phenomenon, I can assure you it was not. UFOs have profoundly alarmed those at high levels of national security in almost all of the countries of our planet. They have effortlessly rendered ICBM sites ineffective, easily evaded interception attempts by the most advanced aircraft of the United States and the Soviet Union, destroyed antiaircraft missiles launched at them with a technology far beyond our own. They have, at the same time, made a distinct and almost mythological impression on people throughout the world. They have not displayed overt hostility towards individuals, have not landed and disrupted our society and have shown no inclination to do so as yet. We may evolve into a unified world which peacefully moves out to explore our solar system, our universe. In such a case, UFOs may not make open and direct contact for hundreds of years. It may take that long for us to develop socially to the point where we would not be totally disturbed by such contact. We may also attempt to violently commit nuclear suicide, thereby poisoning our world, and killing all lifeforms on our planet. It would be a human decision. In such a case, somebody may come down and take our toys away, scolding us severely and imposing their own order upon us. In reaching these kinds of conclusions, I feel that the majority of people in this country presently do not have a firm grasp on the UFO reality. Most simply avoid the subject. The avoidance maneuvers are varied: scientists, in general, see the UFO scene as a can of worms, full of inconsistencies; the media, especially the national media, still treat the subject with tongue in cheek; various authorities, from local police to those up to and including the presidential personnel, simply deny UFOs or explain them away as misidentification of man made or natural phenomena. A significant portion of the population treat UFOs in a semi superstitious manner, in much the same way religious prophecies are treated. It is important to realize that these attitudes are not symptoms of a "planned coverup," at least for the most part. Habitual attitudes such as these are more the symptoms of the cultural consensus "reality" within which we all usually function. The realities of our world are largely our own creation. In trying to understand that concept, in trying to delineate its boundaries, we very often create that reality most comfortable to ourselves and those around us. This process leads to the cultural consensus "reality" which most of us share and support. UFOs, as yet, have not been fully accepted into that reality. People often ask me "Do you believe in UFOs?" My most consistent reply is "No! Do you believe in helicopters?" UFOs are a reality not subject to our belief systems, although it seems they have initiated numerous "beliefs," "mythologies" and even possibly "religions." UFOs exist. The evidence for that existence is now much too solid to deny. That evidence could be an underlying force behind our rapidly evolving military technology. Deep seated fears of what we label as the "unknown" may be a factor in our feverish arms race. It is even almost comforting to realize that now, as we peer off into the darkness of our self created position, we could, if unified, at least have some chance to "battle" those "dark forces of the unknown." Unfortunately, those "dark forces" are largely creations of our own imaginations. Alien invaders haven't yet arrived to enslave us. In fact, I should imagine any advanced life form would be hesitant to try. We are an aggressive and pugnacious species and would make very poor slaves. The human race is rapidly moving into an age where the nature of "reality" is changing every day. We need to understand that we create and maintain that "kind" of reality where we all pretty much agree on "how things are." The ultimate reality of our existence is still very much of a mystery, even to those scientists who specialize in exploring and defining it. We are part of a matter/energy universe which is only now beginning to be somewhat understood. Small particle physicists, those closest to what we might call the "ultimate" reality, readily admit that at this stage of the game, they can define our universe most closely with only one word: ineffable. Science and religion are now beginning to find that they may well be exploring the same ideas, the only difference being in their approaches. UFOs are representative of a "reality" which also seems to be "ineffable." The actual appearance of UFOs to witnesses, the evidence of UFO activity not only perceived by our senses but registered on our technological sensors, is overwhelming. It is best understood when viewed in a semantically clear fashion. They are here. They are seen, tracked on radar, photographed, acted upon, and display actions which are as yet poorly understood. The data available on UFOs indicates the presence of several groups or "groupings" of visitors from other worlds. There are several broad common denominators of these groupings. One of the most consistent of these seems to be a gradual and periodically reinforced series of appearances, labeled "UFO waves." These appearances do not take place on a grand scale; likewise, landings and flyovers generally do not occur at the capital cities of the world. We are not yet prepared to face a culture of beings as far ahead of us as we are of cave dwellers. Anthropological studies show clear examples of the fates of primitive societies exposed to modern man. Another common denominator of UFO activity is their appearances near major military centers throughout the world. These appearances are again periodic, almost on a "reinforcement" schedule. Often these appearances coincide with "demonstrations" of the technological ease with which missile bases are electronically nullified, interceptor aircraft easily outdistanced, antiaircraft missiles destroyed at launch. Examples of these kinds of incidents are coming more and more to the public eye. Perhaps it is time we started growing up. Our visitors, friendly or not, certainly cannot afford to let us come swarming off our planet armed and angry. What would you do if you were up there looking down at a planet whose dominant lifeforms seem to be preoccupied making bigger, better and deadlier devices to either kill themselves or to keep each other from killing themselves? It would seem our visitors have been extremely patient. Perhaps they can help. Perhaps not. Perhaps they are angelic, attempting to help only indirectly. Perhaps they are demonic, attempting to move us onnward towards "Armageddon." Perhaps they are neither. Here we sit, our halos held up by our horns, for the most part unaware of the real nature of our visitors. Perhaps that nature is unimportant. Perhaps more important is our perception of their nature. Perhaps, just perhaps, we can help ourselves. With the awareness that the universe is not our enemy, that it is just the opposite, we might possibly move into a future of tremendous potential. We are growing up. Hopefully we shall share our movement into racial maturity with others who seem to have already evolved towards social and racial sanity. Again, it is our choice. We are, after all, fairly intelligent, especially when we're not chasing each other through the treetops. ADDENDUM I finished this article and submitted it to PURSUIT in early September of 1985. Since that time there have been two clear cases of the unknown object seen low over populated areas of New York and Conneticut. There was also a sharp rise in the number of isolated reports of unusual lights in these months. Most of these reports could not be attributed to aircraft activity. A summary of these reports is given here; it seems as if this resurgence is a clear indication that his wave is not finished. The first incident of note came to light through Peter Gersten's UFO Hotline. On the evening of September 12th, from 9:00 to 10:30 p.m., an unusually large number of reports came into the hotline. All described an unusual object, studded with lights, low over New York City and surrounding areas such as Yonkers and New Rochelle. Some callers reported the "V" shape. Others said the lights varied in their appearance. Several callers reported that there was definitely a very large object involved as the stars were occulted or blocked from view by its passage overhead. I listened to the report of one woman who, along with her husband, saw the object as its light configurations began to change. Her report was familiar; the process she described was almost exactly the same as that seen by the woman I interviewed in Goshen, CT. The media did not make much comment on this activity. Channel 7 News at 11:00 p.m. that night mentioned unusual lights seen over the New York City area. The second incident involving large numbers of people was one I investigated personally. On the evening of October 17th, 1985, an estimated two thousand witnesses saw the object as it appeared over Bridgeport, Fairfield and Danbury, Conneticut. As it moved over these towns it was seen, by separate witnesses, to "change shape" from a "V" to a straight line and back to a "V." The witnesses, some of them police officers, again referred to rows of large lights that defined the shape of the object. It moved very slowly, rotated on its axis and accelerated very rapidly. It was described as "larger than an airliner at low altitude" by witnesses I interviewed. Visiting the Fairfield and Bridgeport, CT police departments, I found that there had been a very large number of calls that night from people concerned about the object. I decided to call the hotline and put my findings on record. The hotline, established more than a year ago, was a direct result of UFO activity in the area and received reports, replaying some of the more dramatic ones for several days. The report from the night of the 17th was recorded on the 19th and played back on the 20th and the 22nd. It gives a clearer idea of the nature and magnitude of the incident: Thursday, October 17th -- "V" shaped white, red, green and blue lights were first seen over Main Street, Bridgeport, CT at approximately 8:35 p.m. The "lights" moved slowly north to the area of St. Vincent's hospital, stopped, hovered for three to five minutes, then rapidly accelerated away to the north. It apparently turned to the east and was next seen hovering over Fairfield University, Fairfield from 8:45 to 8:55 p.m. Again stopped, hovered, "V" unfolded to straight line. Altitude verified at less than one thousand feet by "trigging out" witness positions and angles of observation. All witnesses agree the size of the display was larger than a jet airliner. After hovering over Fairfield, while viewed by police officers, object rotated on its own axis and moved away. Reports came in from Trumbull, Monroe and then Danbury. Shortly after 9:00 p.m., over Danbury, police chief John P. Basile saw it with over thirty other witnesses. Also seen over Bethel and New Fairfield areas and then Candlewood Lake. Articles on page four of the Bridgeport Telegram of Friday, October 18th and page 13 of the Danbury News-Times of the same date. Approximately thirty calls to the Bridgeport Police Department, approximately three hundred calls to the Fairfield Police Department, calls also to the Danbury police, local radio stations and newspapers. Estimated number of witnesses, two thousand." There can be no doubt that something unknown is evident. Other reports that came to my attention were as follows: September 11th, 1985: Single witness, female, reports that while walking dog in Trumbull, CT at 11:30 p.m., saw large group of red lights moving low over position from north to south. Reported by personal acquaintance. October 7th, 1985: A Bridgeport fireman, thirty years old, while bicycling from Bridgeport to Florida (local newspaper coverage) reports seeing low flying "V" shaped object followed closely by several military helicopters. Witness reports that this was near the coast of Virginia, about 9:00 to 10:00 p.m. and object and choppers moving south to north. Reported by personal acquaintance. October 16th, 1985: Two witnesses, female, report seeing a "V" shaped object low over beach near West Haven, CT, between 11:30 and 12:00 p.m. Report also cites "mild sunburn" as a result of "being under the thing." Interviewed one witness by telephone, unable to followup and clarify "sunburn" aspect. What we have been calling the "Westchester Wing" continues to be seen. Its appearances continue to frame questions of its origin and purpose. We all, each in our own way, have much to learn in probing for answers. --EOF -- Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!think.com!rpi!masscomp!peora!tous!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: INFO: Ohio UFO Sightings part 1 Message-ID: <1991Sep28.193448.12077@bilver.uucp> Date: 28 Sep 91 19:34:48 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 784 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2198 alt.conspiracy:7685 sci.skeptic:15654 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This information is presented for your persusal and is a continuation of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-) As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups exclusively, comments to me should be directed to dona@bilver.uucp in mail. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Mutual UFO Network - Sighting Report ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Log # 890602 - Event 10/21/78, Dayton, OH: duration 3 minutes. Lead investigator David Miller. At 3 PM, a man (licensed pilot) was working in his yard when he noticed a chrome-like ball at high altitude which crossed existing vapor trails, transformed to a flat-white, stopped, transformed to grey, then accelerated vertically through cirrus clouds. [Note: As indicated by the witness, a local TV station reported other concurrent observations.] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mutual UFO Network - Sighting Report ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Log # 890603 - Event 1/18/89, Somerville, OH: duration 2 hours. Lead investigator Dick Seifreid. At 3:57 AM, a man (retired USAF noncom) was awakened by his barking dog. Looking out, he observed three oval-shapes over trees bordering the property 50 yards away. He woke his wife and two adolescent children. The family watched for most of two hours as the objects moved low over nearby farm buildings and land. They displayed various bright colors (amber, red, green, blue and white) which covered the surfaces from an apparent belt or lights on each. At one point, the father and son engaged in a chase with their auto before losing sight of them. Shortly thereafter, two of the objects returned over an adjacent field before departing again. [Note: The family subsequently reported a recurrence in the early morning hours of 1/27/89.] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Report #: 209 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 01-18-1987 Subject: CLEVELAND, OH. CASE TYPE: LRS - NL DATE: 26 OCTOBER 1986 TIME: 1800 HOURS CFN#: 0331 DURATION: UNKNOWN WITNESSES: TWO SOURCE: PLAIN DEALER, CLEVELAND, OH. ---------------------------------------- PLAIN DEALER, Cleveland, OH - Oct. 27, 1986 CR: B. Robbins/COUD-I Explosion over lake reported; search on Two Coast Guard boats searched last night for debris after two people said they saw an explosion over Lake Erie, off Euclid. About 6 p.m. a resident of Euclid high-rise near E. 260th St. reported seeing an explosion in the air over the lake. The woman said she saw smoke and debris falling into the lake. Coast Guard officials called Federal Aviation Administration controllers and airports last night to see whether any planes had been reported missing. None were. An official at the Cuyahoga County Airport in Richmond Heights also reported seeing a bright light descending from the sky about the same time, the Coast Guard said. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: 01-27-91 13:23 From: Luke Domet To: All Subj: sightings While on the subject of sightings, I have an interesting account that to this day I cannot explain... It was around mid January, 1988 on a cold clear night. I was driving down state route 52 in ohio along the ohio river just past Moscow, Ohio. The road was turning to the left slightly and as I proceded I could see a huge object lit up in the sky just behind the tree line on the left. I am not too good with drawing a picture with words so bear with me. The object had to have been pretty close to the ground. (1000ft.?) it was triangle shaped, white lights lit up the whole bottom of it with colored lights on the sides. When I saw it, it was stationary pretty far ahead of me just to the left of the road. I wasn't quite sure it was stationary right when I first saw it so I sped up to try and catch up with it. As I got closer I then could see it clearly. It was hovering in over a field, just to the left of the road. Right as I got to the edge of the field (right where it began to run along side of the road) my radio started getting static and the station numbers got dim on the digital display. Then when I hit my breaks to slow down as not to pass it too fast, my headlights dimmed like they were losing power. Within 10 seconds my entire car went out on me. I had to roll to the side of the road. My hazards barely worked, my radio wouldn't turn on. As I was rolling to the side of the road, the object lifted almost straight into the air and cut a 90degree turn behing the tree line. My car had to be towed because it wouldn't start. The car was a '86 Honda Accord, only two years old at the time and it had just been serviced about a month prior. When I had it checked out nothing was found wrong. They ended up replacing the battery just to be sure though. I still don't know if this was a coincidence or not. Luke -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 15-Nov-89 17:21 From: Dale Wedge To: All Subj: ALLEDGED UFO LANDING IN OHIO AN ALLEDGED UFO MEASURING 46 FEET IN DIAMETER LANDED IN THE YARD OF A MILLERSBURG, OHIO RESIDENTS YARD ON MONDAY OR TUESDAY (NOV 13 - 14), 1989. MILLERSBURG IS LOCATED IN HOLMES COUNTY IS IS SOUTHEAST OF CLEVELAND, OHIO AND NORTEAST OF COLUMBUS, OHIO. SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT RESPONDED AND TOOK PROPER MEASUREMENTS. FROM WHAT IS KNOWN, THE SITE ALSO SHOWS FOUR INDENTATIONS IN THE SOIL AND SOME COMPACTTION FROM THE WEIGHT. IT IS NOT KNOWN IF THE SITE WAS SURVEYED FOR RADIATION. THIS INFORMATION WAS PASSED ON TO MUFON STATE DIRECTOR FOR FURTHER INVESTIGATION. THE HOLMES COUNTY SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT ADVISED THAT THEY CALLED WRIGHT-PATTERSON AIR FORCE BASE AND ASKED FOR ASSIS- TANCE ON THIS CASE. IT IS NOT KNOWN AT THIS TIME IF ANY- ONE HAS RESPONDED FROM THE AIR BASE. IF ANYONE ELSE HAS SEEN ANY INFORMATION ON THIS THROUGH THE MEDIA OR BY UPLOAD TO ANY BOARDS, PLEASE EITHER LEAVE ME E-MAIL HERE OR YOU MAY CALL ME AT MY PHONE NUMBER: DALE B. WEDGE 216-285-9408 REMEMBER, I LIVE ON THE EAST COAST FOR YOU WEST COAST PEOPLE. THERE HAS ALSO BEEN A REPORT THAT THERE WAS A SIGHTING AND/ OR PERHAPS A LANDING IN INDIANA AROUND THE SAME TIME. WE (MUFON STATE SECTION DIRECTORS OF N.E. OHIO) WERE CALLED BY A LOCAL TV PERSONALITY WHO CLAIMED THAT HE SAW WHAT WAS REPORTED IN INDIANA DURING THIS WEEK. IF ANYONE HAS INFO ON THIS ALLEDGED SHTING/LANDING, ALSO PLEASE LEAVE MAIL OCALL. DALE B. WEDGE SORRY ABOUT THE TYPOS, WE ARE HAVING A LIGHTNING STORM. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- COG: INFO COPIES CPC DCS DGP DPA B M O OLE OSR 9 FP D9AW D9 AW DE FP ISN-FP021 P 051405Z MAR 88 FM COGARD STA FAIRPORT OH//CO// TO AW/COMCOGARDGRU DETROIT MI//OPS// INFO D9/CCGDNINE CLEVELAND OH//OSR// BT UNCLAS //N16144// SUBJ: INCIDENT REPORT: UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECTS 1. UNIDENTIFIABLE FLYING OBJECTS 1/4 MILE EAST OF CEI POWER PLANT. 2. AT 2035 LCL THIS STATION RCVD A CALL FROM [Name blanked by MUFON investigators] RPTNG A LARGE OBJECT HOVERING OVER THE LAKE AND APPARENTLY ON A SLOW DECENT. THE OBJECT HAD A WHITE LIGHT AND WAS APPROX. 1/4 MILE UP. [Blanked] WAS UNABLE TO DETERMINE HOW FAR OUT IT WAS. THIS UNIT SENT 2 CREWMEMBERS TO INVESTIGATE. BEFORE THEY ARRIVED O/S, WE RCVD 2 MORE CALLS RPTNG THAT THE OBJECT HAD APPARENTLY DISPERSED 3-5 SMALLER FLYING OBJECTS THAT WERE ZIPPING AROUND RATHER QUICKLY. THESE OBJECTS HAD RED, GREEN, WHITE AND YELLOW LIGHTS ON THEM THAT STROBED INTERMITTENTLY. THEY ALSO HAD THE ABILITY TO STOP AND HOVER IN MID-FLIGHT. WHEN MOBILE 02 GO O/S, THEY RPTD THE SAME ACTIVITY. THEY WATCHED THE OBJECTS FOR APPROX. 1 HOUR BEFORE RPTNG THAT THE LARGE OBJECT WAS ALMOST ON THE ICE. THEY RPTD THAT THE ICE WAS CRACKING AND MOVING ABNORMAL AMOUNTS AS THE OBJECT CAME CLOSER TO IT. THE ICE WAS RUMBLING AND THE OBJECT LIT MULTI-COLOR LIGHTS AT EACH END AS IT APPARENTLY LANDED. THE ;LIGHTS ON IT WENT OUT MOMENTARILY AND THEN CAME ON AGAIN. THEY WENT OUT AGAIN AND THE RUMBLING STOPPED AND THE ICE STOPPED MOVING. THE SMALLER OBJECTS BEGAN HOVERING IN THE AREA WHERE THE LARGE OBJECT LANDED AND AFTER A FEW MINUTES THEY BEGAN FLYING AROUND AGAIN. MOBILE 02 RPTD THAT THEY APPEARED TO BE SCOUTING THE AREA. MOBILE 02 RPTD THAT 1 OBJECT WAS MOVING TOWARD THEM AT A HIGH SPEED AND LOW TO THE ICE. MOBILE 02 BACKED DOWN THE HILL THEY HAD BEEN ON AND WHEN THEY WENT BACK TO THE HILL, THE OBJECT WAS GONE. THEY RPTD THAT THE OBJECTS COULD NOT BE SEEN IF THEY TURNED OFF THERE LIGHTS. ONE OF THE SMALL OBJECTS TURNED ON A SPOTLIGHT WHERE THE LARGE OBJECT HAD BEEN BUT MOBILE 02 COULD NOT SEE ANYTHING, AND THEN THE OBJECT SEEMED TO DISAPPEAR. ANOTHER OBJECT APPROACHED MOBILE 02 APPROX. 500 YDS. OFFSHORE ABOUT 20 FT. ABOVE THE ICE, AND IT BEGAN MOVING CLOSER AS MOBILE 02 BEGAN FLASHING ITS HEADLIGHTS, THEN IT MOVED OFF TO THE WEST. 3. THE CREWMEMBERS WERE UNABLE TO IDENTIFY ANY OF THE OBJECTS USING BINOCULARS AND AFTER CONTACTING LOCAL POLICE AND AIRPORTS, THIS UNIT WAS UNABLE TO IDENTIFY THE OBJECTS, AND RECALLED MOBILE 02. BT TOR-03:05:14:44 COGARD STA FAIRPORT OH//CO// P 051405Z MAR 88 /LB --------------------------------------------------------------------- File: LAKERIE.UFO 13868-T 02-APR-88 Dir: 12 Sec: 1 - UFOlogy From: Rick Dell'aquila Acc: 9 LAKE ERIE UFO: Investigative Report N.E. OHIO FLAP by Richard P. Dell'Aquila Richard P. Dell'Aquila and Dale B. Wedge, MUFON State Section Directors for Cuyahoga, Lake, Geauga and Ashtabula Counties (Ohio) have been investigating a series of sightings, beginning about March 4, 1988 and seemingly centered around the Perry Nuclear Plant, and the CEI coal burning plant at Eastlake, both on the shore of Lake Erie, east of Cleveland, Ohio. March 4th was a clear, crisp night and the stars were clearly visible, especially to the north over the lake where there are no city lights. Venus and Jupiter were bright and in close proximity to each other in the western sky. At about 6:30 P.M., S.B. (name and address provided to MUFON) and her children were driving home to Eastlake along the lake shore when they observed a large blimp-like object with bright white lights at each end, hovering over the lake and rocking end to end like a "teeter-totter." One light was brighter than the other and was strobing. On arriving home, she asked her husband to accompany her to the beach about 200 yards north for a closer view of the object which they later described as "larger than a football held at arm's length." She and her husband walked onto the beach. The noiseless object was gun metal gray and seemed to cause the ice on the lake to rumble and crack loudly in an unusual way which frightened her. The witnesses had to shout to be heard by each other, and were surprised that no dogs were out barking as would have been expected. After observing the object for a while, the couple became concerned for the safety of their children in the car when the object revolved slowly about 90 degrees, coming almost overhead (about 1/4 mile high) and pointing its "front" end down toward them. They drove the children home and continued watching the object from their living room window which faces the lake. A neighbor was phoned and she and her son went to the beach, reporting the same thing. They took photographs which did not turn out. The object began to descend and the witnesses returned to the beach, where it was now observed to have red and blue blinking lights along its bottom edge. It emitted 5 or 6 noiseless, intensly bright yellow triangular lights from its side. They intermittently hovered around the larger object, darted and zig-zagged into the night sky at velocities far in excess of known aircraft. Mr. B stated the triangular objects were smaller than a one-seat Cessna and "crossed 50 mile stretches low over the ice in the snap of a finger." They were said to be able to approach the shore, turn abrupt right angles due east toward the Perry Nuclear Plant about 12 miles away, climbing rapidly and returning again, all within several seconds. By this time, a Coast Guard patrol vehicle had arrived on the beach in response to S.B.'s several phone calls. The triangular objects came closer to the shore, causing the witnesses to become concerned that the lights on the Coast Guard vehicle would attract the objects and the lights were turned off. The triangles continued to fly off at high speed northward over the lake and eastward toward the Perry Nuclear Plant. About an hour later, they returned one at a time into the large ship, which then landed on the ice. Several multi-colored lights now came on for about 5 minutes (Page 1 of 3) on the bottom of the object "in a wave like a movie theater sign" and the brighter white light on the end began strobing red and white. When these went off, the ice stopped making noise and everything became "dead silent." The object could no longer be seen within about a half hour and it was assumed to have gone below the surface. The next day, unusually huge pieces of broken ice were observed in the area of the landing. The Coast Guard informed Mr. and Mrs. B the following day that the Army and NASA, whom S.B. had also phoned, instructed them not to investigate the matter further or go out on the lake in their cutter to examine the ice in the area of the landing, since the matter was "out of their league and out of their hands." They informed the couple that all information was being forwarded to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base and a facility in Detroit, Michigan. In response to a Coast Guard inquiry, Wright-Patterson refused to confirm or deny any interest in these activities. On the next night, the same witnesses observed several triangular objects over the lake for about 45 minutes. By the time Coast Guard personnel arrived on the scene, the objects were gone. On March 7, 1988, the Cleveland Plain Dealer and Lake County News-Herald carried articles which attributed a series of reports of large brightly lit objects over Lake Erie on the prior weekend to several witnesses' misidentification of the planets Venus and Jupiter. The newspaper accounts indicated that the Fairport Harbor Coast Guard went to the area and saw a large bright object that seemed to dispurse smaller, bright multi-colored objects. But when they called the local air traffic controllers, they were "informed" that Jupiter and Venus were in alignment and that the colors were the result of "spontaneous gas emissions from the two planets." One article even attributed this amazing explanation to a professor of astronomy at a local university. On reading the articles, Dell'Aquila felt it was unlikely that U.S. Coast Guard personnel, trained in navigation and identification of basic celestial objects such as the planets, could have made such a gross misidentification. Likewise, the statement attributed to the professor of astronomy was equally unacceptable, in that no other similar "spontaneous gas emission" from the planets cited, of the necessary magnitude, had ever been noted, particulary on this weekend. In the course of the follow-up investigation by Dell'Aquila and Wedge, a Coast Guard incident report was found (presently in MUFON's possession) which states that Coast Guard personnel responded to several calls reporting UFOs over Lake Erie on the night of March 4, 1988. When the Coast Guard arrived, the report confirms that a large object "dispersed 3-5 smaller flying objects that were zipping around rather quickly. These objects had red, green white, and yellow lights on them that strobed intermittently. They also had the ability to stop and hover in mid-flight." The incident report confirms Mr. and Mrs. B's reports, including the abnormal cracking of the ice as the object came closer to it and apparently landed. "The smaller objects began hovering in the area where the large object landed (about 1/4 mile east of the CEI power plant) and after a few minutes they began flying around again." The report states that, "One of the small objects turned on a spotlight where the large object had been, but [the Coast Guard personnel] could not see anything, and then the object seemed to disappear. Another object approached [these personnel] approximately 500 yards offshore about 20 feet above the ice, and it began moving closer as [the Coast Guard] began flashing its headlights, then it moved off to the west." (Page 2 of 3) A subsequent Coast Guard report (also in possession of MUFON) prepared after the sightings of the following night attributes the sightings to misidentifications of the planets Venus and Jupiter and says, "the flashing lights are gases in the atmosphere...Request incident closed this unit." In response to a classified advertisement placed by the investigators, other witnesses contacted Dell'Aquila and Wedge, and have been interviewed as the investigation continues. On the same night (March 4th) at about 10:00 P.M., and continuing until approximately 10:30 P.M., C.H. (name and address provided to MUFON) also reported a UFO near her home, which is a few miles south of the lake shore and just east of the Perry Nuclear Plant. C.H. was walking a puppy when she noticed the stationary triangular object in the southeasterly sky. It was much brighter than the moon, and seemed to upset the puppy, which she took back indoors. Returning outdoors, she reported that the object began sequentially flashing multi-colored lights, suspended in rows below the base of the triangle. The witness responded by flashing her cigarette lighter and the UFO's light pattern became more erratic. At one point, the triangle revolved clockwise, turning its apex about 90 degrees to a horizontal position, but still flashing the rows of light. After several minutes, it turned back counter-clockwise as it simultaneously accelerated away to the south at a high rate of speed, disappearing behind some trees. No noise or odor was reported. At about 10:30 P.M. that night T.K. (name and address provided to MUFON), took a photograph in his back yard, within a few miles of the Perry Nuclear Plant, showing a portion of a brightly lit triangular object travelling across the sky (Photograph in possession of MUFON). This object was later confirmed by Mr. and Mrs. B and C.H. to be identical to the triangular objects they were also observing about the same time a few miles away, and is also similar to one reported to Phil Imbrogno as having been near the Indian Point Nuclear Power Plant in New York State on the same night. T.K. and his friend were outdoors on the night of March 4th, observing the stars through his telescope. Venus and Jupiter were reported to be in the western sky behind a stand of trees. While looking southward through the telescope, out of the corner of his left eye, T.K. noticed a bright, moving object in the sky. He and his friend were awe-struck by the triangular object, but he did have the presence of mind to take 3 photographs with a small "snapshot" type camera loaded with Kodak 110 color film, with which they had intended to photograph stars through the telescope. Only one photograph turned out. It is the last in the series, taken while panning ahead of the object, and shows the front portion of the triangle. The object was described as about 3-4 inches tall at arm's length and glowing an intense yellow/orange to white, with a bright orange/red glow behind it. It seemed to pulse brighter and dimmer, moving in a roughly southwesterly direction until it was obscured by trees. As it moved, it accelerated, slowed and accelerated again. No sound or smell was noted, although his dog had a strong reaction, running in circles and tugging on T.K.'s sleeve, apparently in an attempt to urge him away from the object. Total time of observation was a few minutes. Dell'Aquila and Wedge continue to receive reports of additional UFOs over the same period, some supported by photographs, as the sightings continue to the date of this writing. Supplementary reports will be provided as the investigation of the flap progresses. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Cleveland Plain Dealer Monday, March 7, 1988 -------------------------- COZYING OF JUPITER, VENUS LIGHT UP SKY Reports of unidentified flying objects are being made, and the most likely explanation is the rare alignment of Jupiter and Venus. Some Fairport Harbor residents reported seeing UFOs and large bright objects hovering over Lake Erie over the weekend. The Fairport Harbor Coast Guard went to the area and saw a large bright object that seemed to disperse smaller, brightly colored objects. But when they called the Greater Cleveland air traffic controllers, they learned that Jupiter and Venus were in alignment and that the colors were the result of spontaneous gas emissions from the two planets. Its the celestial equivalent of a colorful floor show, says Charles B. Stephenson, a professor of astronomy at Case Western Reserve University. The Earth's atmosphere helps create the color sensation, in the same way that distant stars appear to twinkle. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ File: LAKERIE3.UFO 1210-T 02-APR-88 (L) Dir: 12 Sec: 1 - UFOlogy From: Rick Dell'Aquile Acc: 8 The News-Herald Monday, March 7, 1988 ---------------------- SKY-GAZERS MISTAKE PLANETS FOR UFOS Visitors from another planet have nothing to do with the UFOs which were reported along the lake shore Friday and Saturday nights. But, according to the Coast Guard, the planets Jupiter and Venus are involved. When the US Coast Guard at Fairport Harbor received reports Friday night of UFOs in the sky, it checked with area airports to learn what their radar indicated. "We thought it might be someone in trouble setting off flares," said Petty Officer John Knaub. "So we investigated ourselves." Coast Guard members saw the lights over the lake about 1/4 mile east of the mouth of the Chagrin River. "But Lost Nation Airport advised us that we were seeing the planets Jupiter and Venus, which are lined up together in the sky. Apparently the gases in the atmosphere created the appearance of smaller objects around them." The UFO reports rolled in again Saturday night, when the sky remained clear and was dominated by a full moon. Knaub said the phenomena is visible around 9PM, as skygazers look west along the lake from Fairport Harbor. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- File: LAKERIE4.UFO 2717-T 02-APR-88 (L) Dir: 6 Sec: 1 - UFOlogy From: Rick Dell'Aquila Acc: 8 LAKE ERIE UFO: First Coast Guard Report COG: INFO COPIES CPC DCS DGP DPA B M O OLE OSR 9 FP D9AW D9 AW DE FP ISN-FP021 P 051405Z MAR 88 FM COGARD STA FAIRPORT OH//CO// TO AW/COMCOGARDGRU DETROIT MI//OPS// INFO D9/CCGDNINE CLEVELAND OH//OSR// BT UNCLAS //N16144// SUBJ: INCIDENT REPORT: UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECTS 1. UNIDENTIFIABLE FLYING OBJECTS 1/4 MILE EAST OF CEI POWER PLANT. 2. AT 2035 LCL THIS STATION RCVD A CALL FROM [Name blanked by MUFON investigators] RPTNG A LARGE OBJECT HOVERING OVER THE LAKE AND APPARENTLY ON A SLOW DECENT. THE OBJECT HAD A WHITE LIGHT AND WAS APPROX. 1/4 MILE UP. [Blanked] WAS UNABLE TO DETERMINE HOW FAR OUT IT WAS. THIS UNIT SENT 2 CREWMEMBERS TO INVESTIGATE. BEFORE THEY ARRIVED O/S, WE RCVD 2 MORE CALLS RPTNG THAT THE OBJECT HAD APPARENTLY DISPERSED 3-5 SMALLER FLYING OBJECTS THAT WERE ZIPPING AROUND RATHER QUICKLY. THESE OBJECTS HAD RED, GREEN, WHITE AND YELLOW LIGHTS ON THEM THAT STROBED INTERMITTENTLY. THEY ALSO HAD THE ABILITY TO STOP AND HOVER IN MID-FLIGHT. WHEN MOBILE 02 GO O/S, THEY RPTD THE SAME ACTIVITY. THEY WATCHED THE OBJECTS FOR APPROX. 1 HOUR BEFORE RPTNG THAT THE LARGE OBJECT WAS ALMOST ON THE ICE. THEY RPTD THAT THE ICE WAS CRACKING AND MOVING ABNORMAL AMOUNTS AS THE OBJECT CAME CLOSER TO IT. THE ICE WAS RUMBLING AND THE OBJECT LIT MULTI-COLOR LIGHTS AT EACH END AS IT APPARENTLY LANDED. THE ;LIGHTS ON IT WENT OUT MOMENTARILY AND THEN CAME ON AGAIN. THEY WENT OUT AGAIN AND THE RUMBLING STOPPED AND THE ICE STOPPED MOVING. THE SMALLER OBJECTS BEGAN HOVERING IN THE AREA WHERE THE LARGE OBJECT LANDED AND AFTER A FEW MINUTES THEY BEGAN FLYING AROUND AGAIN. MOBILE 02 RPTD THAT THEY APPEARED TO BE SCOUTING THE AREA. MOBILE 02 RPTD THAT 1 OBJECT WAS MOVING TOWARD THEM AT A HIGH SPEED AND LOW TO THE ICE. MOBILE 02 BACKED DOWN THE HILL THEY HAD BEEN ON AND WHEN THEY WENT BACK TO THE HILL, THE OBJECT WAS GONE. THEY RPTD THAT THE OBJECTS COULD NOT BE SEEN IF THEY TURNED OFF THERE LIGHTS. ONE OF THE SMALL OBJECTS TURNED ON A SPOTLIGHT WHERE THE LARGE OBJECT HAD BEEN BUT MOBILE 02 COULD NOT SEE ANYTHING, AND THEN THE OBJECT SEEMED TO DISAPPEAR. ANOTHER OBJECT APPROACHED MOBILE 02 APPROX. 500 YDS. OFFSHORE ABOUT 20 FT. ABOVE THE ICE, AND IT BEGAN MOVING CLOSER AS MOBILE 02 BEGAN FLASHING ITS HEADLIGHTS, THEN IT MOVED OFF TO THE WEST. 3. THE CREWMEMBERS WERE UNABLE TO IDENTIFY ANY OF THE OBJECTS USING BINOCULARS AND AFTER CONTACTING LOCAL POLICE AND AIRPORTS, THIS UNIT WAS UNABLE TO IDENTIFY THE OBJECTS, AND RECALLED MOBILE 02. BT TOR-03:05:14:44 COGARD STA FAIRPORT OH//CO// P 051405Z MAR 88 /LB --------------------------------------------------------------------------- File: LAKERIE5.UFO 1474-T 02-APR-88 (L) Dir: 6 Sec: 1 - UFOlogy From: Rick Dell'Aquila Acc: 7 LAKE ERIE UFO: Second Coast Guard Report COG: INFO COPIES CPC DCS DGP DPA B M O OLE OSR 9 FP D9AW D9 AW DE FP ISN-FP024 P 060150Z MAR 88 FM COGARD STA FAIRPORT OH//CO// TO AW/COMCOGARDGRU DETROIT MI//OPS// INFO D9/CCGDNINE CLEVELAND OH//OSR// BT UNCLAS //N16144// SUBJ: INCIDENT REPORT: UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECTS 1. UNIDENTIFIABLE FLYING OBJECTS 1/4 MILE EAST OF CEI POWER PLANT. 2. AT 1913 LCL THIS STATION RCVD CALL FROM [Name blanked by investigators] RPTNG A LARGE OBJECT HOVERING OVER THE LAKE AT A GREATER ALTITUDE THAN LAST NIGHT. AT 1923 LCL THIS STATION CALLED LOST NATION AIRPORT (WILLOUGHBY OHIO). THEY STATED HEAVY AIR TRAFFIC THIS EVENING. THE RUNWAY (23) THAT THEY ARE USING RUNS NORTH-SOUTH. THIS STATION SENT MOBILE 02 WITH 03 PERSONS TO INVESTIGATE. UPON ARRIVING ON SEEN THERE WERE NEGATIVE SIGHTINGS. EAST LAKE POLICE SENT A PATROL CAR TO INVESTIGATE ALSO NEGATIVE SIGHTINGS. MOBILE 02 IS GOING TO BE ON THE BEACH TO INVESTIGATE FURTHER. 3. UPON FURTHER INVESTIGATION THIS STATION CALLED LOST NATIONS AIRPORT AGAIN AND TALKED TO [blanked] IN THE CONTROL TOWER. [blanked] INFORMED US THAT THE TWO BRIGHT LIGHTS ARE THE PLANETS VENUS AND JUPITER. THE FLASHING LIGHTS ARE GASES IN THE ATMOSPHERE. THE PLANETS SHOULD BE SETTING ABOUT 2130 LCL. 4. REQUEST INCIDENT CLOSED THIS UNIT. BT TOR-03:06:02:00 COGARD STA FAIRPORT OH//CO// P 060150Z MAR 88 ZDS / SG --------------------------------------------------------------------------- N.E. OHIO FLAP by Richard P. Dell'Aquila Richard P. Dell'Aquila and Dale B. Wedge, MUFON State Section Directors for Cuyahoga, Lake, Geauga and Ashtabula Counties (Ohio) have been investigating a series of sightings, beginning about March 4, 1988 and seemingly centered around the Perry Nuclear Plant, and the CEI coal burning plant at Eastlake, both on the shore of Lake Erie, east of Cleveland, Ohio. March 4th was a clear, crisp night and the stars were clearly visible, especially to the north over the lake where there are no city lights. Venus and Jupiter were bright and in close proximity to each other in the western sky. At about 6:30 P.M., S.B. (name and address provided to MUFON) and her children were driving home to Eastlake along the lake shore when they observed a large blimp-like object with bright white lights at each end, hovering over the lake and rocking end to end like a "teeter-totter." One light was brighter than the other and was strobing. On arriving home, she asked her husband to accompany her to the beach about 200 yards north for a closer view of the object which they later described as "larger than a football held at arm's length." She and her husband walked onto the beach. The noiseless object was gun metal gray and seemed to cause the ice on the lake to rumble and crack loudly in an unusual way which frightened her. The witnesses had to shout to be heard by each other, and were surprised that no dogs were out barking as would have been expected. After observing the object for a while, the couple became concerned for the safety of their children in the car when the object revolved slowly about 90 degrees, coming almost overhead (about 1/4 mile high) and pointing its "front" end down toward them. They drove the children home and continued watching the object from their living room window which faces the lake. A neighbor was phoned and she and her son went to the beach, reporting the same thing. They took photographs which did not turn out. The object began to descend and the witnesses returned to the beach, where it was now observed to have red and blue blinking lights along its bottom edge. It emitted 5 or 6 noiseless, intensly bright yellow triangular lights from its side. They intermittently hovered around the larger object, darted and zig-zagged into the night sky at velocities far in excess of known aircraft. Mr. B stated the triangular objects were smaller than a one-seat Cessna and "crossed 50 mile stretches low over the ice in the snap of a finger." They were said to be able to approach the shore, turn abrupt right angles due east toward the Perry Nuclear Plant about 12 miles away, climbing rapidly and returning again, all within several seconds. By this time, a Coast Guard patrol vehicle had arrived on the beach in response to S.B.'s several phone calls. The triangular objects came closer to the shore, causing the witnesses to become concerned that the lights on the Coast Guard vehicle would attract the objects and the lights were turned off. The triangles continued to fly off at high speed northward over the lake and eastward toward the Perry Nuclear Plant. About an hour later, they returned one at a time into the large ship, which then landed on the ice. Several multi-colored lights now came on for about 5 minutes (Page 1 of 3) on the bottom of the object "in a wave like a movie theater sign" and the brighter white light on the end began strobing red and white. When these went off, the ice stopped making noise and everything became "dead silent." The object could no longer be seen within about a half hour and it was assumed to have gone below the surface. The next day, unusually huge pieces of broken ice were observed in the area of the landing. The Coast Guard informed Mr. and Mrs. B the following day that the Army and NASA, whom S.B. had also phoned, instructed them not to investigate the matter further or go out on the lake in their cutter to examine the ice in the area of the landing, since the matter was "out of their league and out of their hands." They informed the couple that all information was being forwarded to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base and a facility in Detroit, Michigan. In response to a Coast Guard inquiry, Wright-Patterson refused to confirm or deny any interest in these activities. On the next night, the same witnesses observed several triangular objects over the lake for about 45 minutes. By the time Coast Guard personnel arrived on the scene, the objects were gone. On March 7, 1988, the Cleveland Plain Dealer and Lake County News-Herald carried articles which attributed a series of reports of large brightly lit objects over Lake Erie on the prior weekend to several witnesses' misidentification of the planets Venus and Jupiter. The newspaper accounts indicated that the Fairport Harbor Coast Guard went to the area and saw a large bright object that seemed to dispurse smaller, bright multi-colored objects. But when they called the local air traffic controllers, they were "informed" that Jupiter and Venus were in alignment and that the colors were the result of "spontaneous gas emissions from the two planets." One article even attributed this amazing explanation to a professor of astronomy at a local university. On reading the articles, Dell'Aquila felt it was unlikely that U.S. Coast Guard personnel, trained in navigation and identification of basic celestial objects such as the planets, could have made such a gross misidentification. Likewise, the statement attributed to the professor of astronomy was equally unacceptable, in that no other similar "spontaneous gas emission" from the planets cited, of the necessary magnitude, had ever been noted, particulary on this weekend. In the course of the follow-up investigation by Dell'Aquila and Wedge, a Coast Guard incident report was found (presently in MUFON's possession) which states that Coast Guard personnel responded to several calls reporting UFOs over Lake Erie on the night of March 4, 1988. When the Coast Guard arrived, the report confirms that a large object "dispersed 3-5 smaller flying objects that were zipping around rather quickly. These objects had red, green white, and yellow lights on them that strobed intermittently They also had the ability to stop and hover in mid-flight." The incident report confirms Mr. and Mrs. B's reports, including the abnormal cracking of the ice as the object came closer to it and apparently landed. "The smaller objects began hovering in the area where the large object landed (about 1/4 mile east of the CEI power plant) and after a few minutes they began flying around again." The report states that, "One of the small objects turned on a spotlight where the large object had been, but [the Coast Guard personnel] could not see anything, and then the object seemed to disappear. Another object approached [these personnel] approximately 500 yards offshore about 20 feet above the ice, and it began moving closer as [the Coast Guard] began flashing its headlights, then it moved off to the west." (Page 2 of 3) A subsequent Coast Guard report (also in possession of MUFON) prepared after the sightings of the following night attributes the sightings to misidentifications of the planets Venus and Jupiter and says, "the flashing lights are gases in the atmosphere...Request incident closed this unit." In response to a classified advertisement placed by the investigators, other witnesses contacted Dell'Aquila and Wedge, and have been interviewed as the investigation continues. On the same night (March 4th) at about 10:00 P.M., and continuing until approximately 10:30 P.M., C.H. (name and address provided to MUFON) also reported a UFO near her home, which is a few miles south of the lake shore and just east of the Perry Nuclear Plant. C.H. was walking a puppy when she noticed the stationary triangular object in the southeasterly sky. It was much brighter than the moon, and seemed to upset the puppy, which she took back indoors. Returning outdoors, she reported that the object began sequentially flashing multi-colored lights, suspended in rows below the base of the triangle. The witness responded by flashing her cigarette lighter and the UFO's light pattern became more erratic. At one point, the triangle revolved clockwise, turning its apex about 90 degrees to a horizontal position, but still flashing the rows of light. After several minutes, it turned back counter-clockwise as it simultaneously accelerated away to the south at a high rate of speed, disappearing behind some trees. No noise or odor was reported. At about 10:30 P.M. that night T.K. (name and address provided to MUFON), took a photograph in his back yard, within a few miles of the Perry Nuclear Plant, showing a portion of a brightly lit triangular object travelling across the sky (Photograph in possession of MUFON). This object was later confirmed by Mr. and Mrs. B and C.H. to be identical to the triangular objects they were also observing about the same time a few miles away, and is also similar to one reported to Phil Imbrogno as having been near the Indian Point Nuclear Power Plant in New York State on the same night. T.K. and his friend were outdoors on the night of March 4th, observing the stars through his telescope. Venus and Jupiter were reported to be in the western sky behind a stand of trees. While looking southward through the telescope, out of the corner of his left eye, T.K. noticed a bright, moving object in the sky. He and his friend were awe-struck by the triangular object, but he did have the presence of mind to take 3 photographs with a small "snapshot" type camera loaded with Kodak 110 color film, with which they had intended to photograph stars through the telescope. Only one photograph turned out. It is the last in the series, taken while panning ahead of the object, and shows the front portion of the triangle. The object was described as about 3-4 inches tall at arm's length and glowing an intense yellow/orange to white, with a bright orange/red glow behind it. It seemed to pulse brighter and dimmer, moving in a roughly southwesterly direction until it was obscured by trees. As it moved, it accelerated, slowed and accelerated again. No sound or smell was noted, although his dog had a strong reaction, running in circles and tugging on T.K.'s sleeve, apparently in an attempt to urge him away from the object. Total time of observation was a few minutes. Dell'Aquila and Wedge continue to receive reports of additional UFOs over the same period, some supported by photographs, as the sightings continue to the date of this writing. Supplementary reports will be provided as the investigation of the flap progresses. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- UDATE TO N.E. OHIO UFO FLAP: On Saturday, April 2, 1988 at about 3:15 P.M., Eastern Time, a flat black helicopter was reported to fly at tree-top level over the N.E. Ohio home of one of the witnesses whose prior sighting has been filed with MUFON by Dale B. Wedge and Rick Dell'Aquila, and recounted on Paranet (see LAKERIEn.UFO). The helicopter was observed by at least 5 individuals from three separate residences in the neighborhood, and was in sight for 2-3 minutes. The unmarked and unlit helicopter had a military appearance as it approached slowly from the west, making a loud sound peculiarly similar to that made by a small airplane rather than a helicopter. The apparently windowless craft was observed to fly eastward, before turning to the south and disappearing over a line of trees. It apparently caused "snow" on a television screen. The investigation of the continuing series of UFO events in this area continues and updates will be provided to MUFON and Paranet as they become available. --Rick Dell'Aquila --- Cont in part 2 ---- Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!think.com!rpi!masscomp!peora!tous!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: INFO: Wisconsin UFO Sightings Message-ID: <1991Sep28.193947.12417@bilver.uucp> Date: 28 Sep 91 19:39:47 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 248 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2199 alt.conspiracy:7686 sci.skeptic:15655 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This information is presented for your persusal and is a continuation of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-) As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups exclusively, comments to me should be directed to dona@bilver.uucp in mail. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 11-Mar-87 00:17 MST Subj: APwi 03/10 Belleville UFO BELLEVILLE, Wis. (AP) -- Lavonne Freidig says she first thought it was a distant flock of geese, but closer observation showed an object shaped like an airplane fuselage with no wings. Belleville had recorded another sighting this year of an unidentified flying object. "It just hung there. I watched it and watched it," she said Monday of the object or objects she and her son, Bill, saw in the sky at dusk Sunday. After several minutes, the hitherto motionless object took off without a sound, leaving a vapor trail and several smaller objects behind it, she said. "It was really strange," said Ms. Freidig, adding that a local businessman and several of his out-of-town relatives, as well as residents of nearby Paoli also saw the object, and that someone also photographed it with a camera he had in his car. She said she and her son called the Dane County sheriff's office and were given the number of a national unidentified flying object reporting center to call. The cigar-shaped object appeared to be about as large as a pen held at arm's length, she said. In mid-January, Belleville police officer Glen Kazmar reported seeing lights much brighter than a star suspended in the sky west of Belleville for more than a half hour one evening. He said at the time that a Federal Aviation Administration radar center in Illinois detected a slow-moving object on its radar screens on the night in question. Jack Smith, manager of the FAA control tower at the Dane County Regional Airport in Madison, said Monday that tower operators did not report any unidentified objects on their radar screens Sunday evening. He said the tower received no reports of sightings from pilots. Copyright 1987 by the Associated Press. All rights reserved. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Report #: 225 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 05-12-1987 Subject: WAUKESHA, WI CASE TYPE: LRS DATE: 10 MARCH 1987 TIME: 22:45 HOURS CFN#: 0234 DURATION: UNKNOWN WITNESSES: ONE SOURCE: FREEMAN, WAUKESHA, WI 3/12/87 -------------------------------------------- Second UFO reported in city area. Waukesha - An unidentified flying object was spotted late Tuesday night by a woman on the city's east side in the same area a similar sighting was reported in November. The woman's husband reported the UFO because he said his wife was slighty embarrassed to talk about what she saw. The husband said as the woman pull into her driveway near the corner of Arcadian and Oakland avenues at about 10:45 p.m., she spotted a triangular object with red and white lights hovering in the air less than a mile to the northeast. The woman beeped the horn of her car to alert husdand, but by the time he got outside, the object was out of sight. A UFO matching the same general description, was sighted by a motorist in the area Nov. 24. "She's convinced it wasn't a plan or a helicopter, said the husband, who did not want to be identified. Area law officers and airports reported nothing unusual Tuesday night, and the Wisconsin National Guard and Army Reserve said they had no helicopters in flight in the area at that time. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Report #: 214 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 01-31-1987 Subject: BELLEVILLE, WI CASE TYPE: LRS - POSSIBLE - RV DATE: 15 JANUARY 1987 TIME: 21:OO HOURS CFN#: 0336 DURATION: 06:HOURS WITNESSES: MANY SOURCE: AP - BELLEVILLE, WI ---------------------------------------------------- A Belleville patrolman's sighting of strange lights in the night sky is under investigation by a ufo study group, the police chief said monday. officer Glen Kazmar reported the red, white and blue lights to sheriff's dispatchers who relayed the sighting to the Federal Aviation Administration Control Tower on Jan 15, police Chief Jack Pace said. He couldn't see what the lights were attached to, Pace said. He couldn't hear any sound. Kazmar was off duty Monday and did not answer his home telephone, but he told the Monroe Evening Times: when it was just stayed in the same place, and the bright lights, then I knew it was something that wasn't normal. Kazmar first sighted the lights about 9 P.M. and he and a passenger, Jeff Furseth, began studying them more closely about 3 A.M., Kazmar told the Times. They watched them untill nearly daybreak, when the lights disappeared on the horizon. The officer estimated he got within a mile of the lights, Pace said. Other reports of lights were received that night by sheriff's deputice in Dane and Green counties. The FAA tower in Chicago also said it was tracking a slowly moving object in the area, but made no radio contact with it. Actually, we we're not sure if what they were looking at on the their radar was what officer Kazmar saw, but it's possible, Pace said. Happenings in Dane County very closely correspond to a number of sightings in the Waukesha area and Kenosha County. Since Kazmar's sighting and news of it spread the six-officer department has received several calls about UFO's sightings, Pace said. None of the calls of other sightings resemble what Kazmar reported and Pace added he expects the reports to taper off. Other reports of sightings in near by countys have been reported to a study group. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Report #: 223 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 04-22-1987 Subject: GLEASON, WI CASE TYPE: LRS DATE: 3 FEBRUARY 1987 TIME: 18:45 HOURS CFN#: 0345 DURATION: UNKNOWN WITNESSES: THREE SOURCE: JOURNAL, ANTIGO ---------------------------------------------- Another in a series of recent UFO unidentified flying object sightings was reported in the Gleason area Thesday night. Three sister, Rhonda Chapman, 13, Rebecca Chapman, 10, and Tara Chapman, 9, of N8196 Highway H., Gleason, reported to Lincoln County sheriff's department that they spotted a UFO in the sky near their home about 6:45 P.M. The information was relayed to the Langlade County sheriff's department. The girls said they saw a large round object that was first yellow and white in color, and later changed to blue with red flashing lights. Sparks emitted from the object, the girls reported. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- UFO WELCOME MAT IS OUT IN WISCONSIN ELMWOOD, WI (SEPT. 24) REUTER - This small town in western Wisconsin doesn't have many parking places, and there is no motel. But the welcome mat is always out for visitors from space. Elmwood, with a population of 1,009, has turned waiting for alien visits into all year business. It all began 15 years ago when George Wheeler, described by friends as a no-nonsense policeman, reported that he had been attacked by a blue light from a large ball of flame that hovered over his squad car at the village quarry. Eight years ago, 76-year-old Hobbs Wilson said he had seen a UFO 10 km (six miles) from town. ''It was six to seven meters (18 to 20 feet) long, made no noise and it lit up the barnyard,'' he tells visitors. ''Where did it get the power to light up like that? I don't know.'' More recently area businessman Tom Weber got international attention when he tried to raise 50 million dollars to build a landing strip for aliens. He envisioned it beaming welcoming lights toward space to entice wandering craft down for a friendly landing and perhaps a cup of coffee. That project flopped for lack of money. While other small towns across America have their pumpkin festivals, fishing derbies and other local occasions, Elmwood makes its mark with annual ''UFO Days.'' The most recent attracted 2,000 tourists, some dressed like Hollywood-issue aliens. They watched parades, danced in the street, rode carnival rides, ate UFO Burgers (topped with melted cheese and sauerkraut) and saw the crowning of a UFO Queen. The six finalists in that last event were asked by the judges to explain why UFOs are attracted to Elmwood. ''It might be because they want to study a rural culture, and this is a very rural culture,'' said 17-year-old Kathryn Raasch. Children chased through the streets gathering 500 paper plates dropped from an airplane. The imitation flying saucers were redeemable for prizes ranging from five to 75 cents. ''Every town around here seems to have its Strawberry Festival or its Cucumber Festival or its Potato Festival, so we decided to have a UFO Festival because we've had a lot of sightings,'' said Caroline Schoeder, an organiser of the event. The continuing sale of inflatable space ships, T-shirts, caps, mugs, ashtrays, badges, bumper stickers and other products has become something of a cottage industry. ''We usually try to donate about 3,000 dollars a year to the community,'' said Sharon Weber, who did a brisk business at a concession stand run by the Elmwood Area Community Club, a charitable organisation. Profits from the sale of UFO paraphernalia have paid for an air conditioning system in a community auditorium and for Christmas decorations in the downtown district, she said. However, for the true UFO aficionado wanting to meet alien beings, Elmwood may be a disappointment. Rusty Paar, 23, drove in from La Crosse, Wisconsin, clutching a photocopied document that he said outlined a government cover-up of UFO landings. But he found few people who took the matter as seriously. ''This whole event just looks like a bunch of people looking for an excuse to party,'' he said. ============================================================================== __ EOF __ Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!think.com!rpi!masscomp!peora!tous!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: INFO: Ohio UFO Sightings part 2 Message-ID: <1991Sep28.193709.12342@bilver.uucp> Date: 28 Sep 91 19:37:09 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 1141 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2200 alt.conspiracy:7687 sci.skeptic:15656 --- Ohio sightings part 2 --- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- INTERVIEW OF WITNESSES TO EASTLAKE UFO Copyright 1988, Richard P. Dell'Aquila and Dale B. Wedge On March 26, 1988, two civilian witnesses to the Eastlake UFOs (W1 and her husband W2) who were on the beach with the Coast Guard March 4, 1988 were interviewed. The following is a partial transcript of that interview, conducted by Dale Wedge (DW) and Rick Dell'Aquila (RD). Several other witnesses have also been interviewd and photographic evidence has been obtained. To date, however, the Coast Guard has refused further information or interviews of its personnel concerning the UFO sighting that night near the CEI electric power plant. The investigation continues. RD ...Please tell us what happened in your own words. W1 We were coming home (on March 4, 1988) and I saw something over the lake...and it wasn't moving and I had my husband go down the street and I said, "Go down to the beach because I'm telling you there is something out there." He kept laughing at me. I said I was serious and we went down there. We got out of the car and walked to the beach. I had left the kids in the car and you could see it. It looked almost like the shape of a blimp and had lights on both sides. One end was brighter and the other end was a little bit dimmer, but one end flashed. It wasn't a constant light that was on. It seemed to rock a little bit--you could just see it rocking back and forth. It hovered and didn't make any noise. The ice was cracking really bad and the ice down here doesn't crack like that. It was making like--it was rumbling and cracking it was real, real loud. There were no animals barking or nothing. Around here we have a lot of dogs and that was surprising beacuse you always hear the dogs out. There were no animals--just the real loud noise out of the lake. We were standing on the beach and my husband and I were looking at this thing. It started to turn and I thought--you know how you get really eerie feelings? I said to myself there is something up there. You could see it was a ship or something bacause you could see there was a gray line like a football kind of thing in the middle, but you couldn't really see it. You could just see it was there. Do you understand what I'm saying? RD We are going to ask you to draw a sketch in a while. W1 You could see the whole thing, but not real well. You could see there was a middle to it. We stayed and we watched it for a while...(interview interrupted by phone call). DW Okay, we are back on. We had a phone call interruption. W1 ...Okay, we sat down at the beach and while we were watching this I had the kids in the car and I was getting kind of "weirded-out" you know, because you hear about these things, but you never really believe it until you see them. It started to turn toward us. It was coming in closer to land and beacuse my kids were in the car, I didn't want to stay down at the beach, beacuse you never know whats going to happen or if it was going to come down to get us or whatever. RD In other words, you were concerned for your safety? W1 Yeah, because it was coming closer to us. You could see...it seemed like it knew we were there. We were the only ones down there at the time and I was getting really nervous. I told my husband, "You know, we've got two kids in the car. Let's get them home and safe so we don't have to worry about anything." He said okay, so we got the kids back to the house and I put them in their room and I locked the door beacuse I had a real eerie feeling, you know after we left there. We were down there a while looking at it and we came home to watch it from our living room. RD When you say "we"--who else was there with you? W1 My husband and my kids. So I was looking at it from here and I said to my husband, "Well, maybe I'm nuts, I don't know, but let's call Sue," who lives across the street, "and see if she sees the same thing that we do." So I did, I called her and her and her son went outside and they saw the same thing and we kept hearing this noise at the lake and that really scared us because, like I said, the lake doesn't make noises like that. We watched it most of the evening and when it started to come down, we all got real curious and we all went back down. Sue drove down to the beach and she saw it with her son and her husband thinks she's totally "cracked-up." (Laughter.) But they all did. Everybody thinks, you know, we didn't see what we did. So now we get down there and the thing's starting to land. You could see like red and blue lights and they said they were planets and gasses and nonsense like that, but they were actual lights starting to flutter. But before this, while it was still in the sky, there were like little triangle "planes", about, there were, we counted about five--we weren't sure if there were five or six, but we counted five of them that were running back and forth. They were going up and down, like hovering. They didn't make any noise, but they were going REALLY fast across the sky and by this time the Coast Guard was down there. I had called the Coast Guard, I would say at least twelve times and they kept telling me, "Well, your crazy and nothing's wrong...(Phone call interrruption). DW Pause for phone call. DW Okay, we're back on. W1 So now what had happened was these planes were like, looked like they had come out of it, because they came out of nowhere. We saw them come out...I don't know if it was on the side or on the front of it, but you could tell they came out of it because they were real litte. They looked like little yellow triangles. They were real bright and went super, super fast. They went up and down like this, instead of, you know how a plane goes this way? Well, they were going up and down and like diagonally at it and they were hovering around it and then they started shooting out toward the lake and this time the Coast Guard saw all this because that's when they sent their people out when these little planes started appearing. And when they got down here, they saw these things and they were coming real close to the coastline. That's when these kids were getting scared. RD When you say "kids," do you mean Coast Guard personnel? W1 Yeah, they were young boys. They were real scared and we got REALLY scared beacuse we were right down on the beach there and we figured the coastline that would be it. We were afraid they would attack their truck, because their truck had lights on it. So we told them, "Turn off your lights." Because the more they kept coming closer and closer to the lights of the truck, because the truck was parked on the hill. There's like a little hill over there. They could see the lights, because they seemed to be coming at the lights. And so we had them shut their lights off because we were scared. You never know what was going to go on. We didn't know what was in these ships or planes or whatever they were because we couldn't tell, but I've never seen a yellow triangle fly around the sky. RD It was yellow? W1 Yeah. Bright, REAL BRIGHT. It looked like a light. That's what it looked like. It looked like a bright light. You know how a car light you'd have? It looked just like that, but it glowed. It was yellow. RD Was there any portion of it that was brighter than any other portion of it? W1 No. It ws all real bright. RD Just one solid, bright light? W1 Yeah, little bright triangles. You know like the little glider models you get for your kids? There in triangles. You make paper airplanes...Like that shape? That's exactly what they were, and they were solid. They weren't...it didn't have wings or anything else. RD Was it even-sided? All three sides of equal length? W1 No, no, it was more pointed like that (gesturing). RD Okay. W1 It was exactly like that (forming triangle with her fingers). The front was more pointy. How's that? I flunked geometry by the way. RD Okay. W1 But it was more pointy, almost like the tip of an arroww. RD Okay, so in other words, the two sides were longer... W1 Were longer than the base...I was wondering why you were laughing at me. RD We're not laughing at you. DW No. We're not. (Wedge and Dell'Aquila had reacted to the fact that the triangular objects described by W1 were identical to those described by other independent witnesses that night and identical to the bright yellow triangular object one witness photographed.) W1 Okay. They were all solid bright light. There was no part of it that was darker than others. We saw it real close down at the shoreline. But when they started coming at this thing and they went back into it, too, we thought maybe it disapeared over the lake. Well, here they had gone, shooting out over the lake and coming, then all of a sudden we saw tham about an hour later, coming back REALLY fast, and they came right into that ship. RD Did you see anything open up on the ship, a door or anything like that? W1 No, but they went right into it because they went right between the lights, so it had to be an opening on the side of it, beacuse they went right into it. They came up and then they went right into it. RD Were you able to observe which direction they left. W1 They went out that way, toward Canada...they went east too, this way. But none of them went that way, toward Cleveland. They all went this way. RD Did any of them go south or southeast? W1 No. They stayed over the lake...they went east and north toward Canada, and that's where basically they stayed. When you saw them shooting out, it was just almost right over land and we had seen them come out and said to my husband," What in the world is that?" He was just laughing. He said, "You're just..." and he got, you know, he goes, "Yeah, sure, I'm going to tell my mother we were sitting home watching UFOs tonight." But, that's what happened. They were there and then we saw them like I said, about an hour later, come back in the same direction they came in, and they all went right back into the thing, one at a time, too. It wasn't like they all swooped down on it and went back into it. They went back in it one at a time, and then the ship seemed to land in the lake. It was about maybe an hour difference, an hour lapse. The ship started setting down on Lake Erie. That's when all these colored lights started coming on when it sat down. You could see the lights as it sat down on the lake, because it was all ice. As soon as it landed, about five minutes later after it landed, you could still see it, the red and the yellow lights and the blue lights, running around the bottom on the lake, because it was a clear night, it was beautiful. Then as soon as all the lights went out on it, the lake stopped cracking. Everything got dead silent. There wasn't animals--nothing. Everything got totally quiet. That was it. DW Can you give us a time, approximate time? RD When did you first see it? W1 About six. I think it was about six. My husband said it was later but I don't think so, because it was just getting dark. DW It doesn't get dark until about 6:30 W1 Okay, then maybe it was a little later, about 6:30 or 7:00 P.M. It wasn't exactly dark, but it wasn't light out. It was like dusk, almost, where it's just starting to get dark. RD When did you last observe it? W1 I'd say about 11:30 P.M. RD You were down there for 4-1/2 to 5 hours? W1 No. We came back up to the house and watched it. When it started to set, we went back down. RD I see. At the same time, were you able to observe any of the ojects in the sky that you would recognize? W1 Oh, yeah, absolutely because we were there, we kept looking at them and looking at them to see, you know, we were curious. Even from the house, when it started moving in-land, you could see, you know, what it was if you looked real close. RD Where was the moon for example? W1 The moon? RD Yeah. Was it out? W1 Yeah, there were moon, the stars were beautiful. All the stars were out. RD Was it a clear night? W1 Yeah. it was real clear. RD Did you notice where the planets were? W1 The planets that they told me this was? RD Well, the planets. W1 I didn't really...we weren't looking for the planets, but they would have been behind it, and farther off. RD Is there any question in your mind that what you were looking at was something that you should have recognized, like the planets or...? W1 No. It was definitely a ship, because you could see that there was a center of it. You could also see planes coming out of it, or little vehicles or whatever they are that came out of it and we saw them go back in it. We were almost right directly underneath it...The more we stayed down at the beach, it was turning toward us to come toward us and I got scared, thinking well, maybe someone would come out or get us or something will happen...If we could see it, I knew it could see us, because we were right out in the open on flat land looking at it... The interview continued for several more minutes and W1 drew some sketches. W1 (Drawing) The (light) on the left hand side of the object blinked constantly. RD Was there a regular pattern to the blinking? W1 It was almost like if you looked out the lake, you know how they have those (lights) when you come in from the lake? Almost like that. (Phone interrruption) DW We are going to pause for another phone call. RD What color was the object between the lights? W1 ...gunmetal gray. RD Did it seem solid? W1 Yes. RD Did it seem to have a three-dimensional shape? W1 You could tell it was almost rounded. It was like a football...It was all the same color and you could definitely see the outline of it. We were standing SO close, that you could see the outline. It was totally dark in the center of it and at the top, but you could tell the difference between the sky and the shape. RD Did it seem to have hard edges or fuzzy edges? W1 No, they were very clear edges... The interview continued and W1's husband (W2) arrived home. W2 ...Boy, I'll tell you you ought to see this thing, I watched this thing down at the beach with the Coast Guard guys. It was the strangest thing I've ever seen in my life. It had these guys running, they were so scared. It was strange. As it got lower to the water, all these little, what we thought were jets, came and hovered right above this thing. We assumed they were those Harrier jets that can just hover. When they got closer, these jets came about forty or fifty feet above the ice and they were going back and forth across the lake unbelievably fast. They were covering a fifty mile stretch, like that (Snapping his fingers). RD What shape were they? W2 We thought that they looked like little jets. That's what we assumed. Then when they got closer, they were so little, they were smaller than a one-seated Cessna. They didn't make any noise. DW What about shape? W2 We couldn't tell. All I could see was lights. I could tell you that it looked like a triangle. That's what it looked like. It just looked lik a plain triangle. We couldn't tell a tail fin or anything like that. It looked like a triangle because it was lights down the wings and on the tip of it. RD You mean at the top of the triangle there was a light? W2 Yeah. There was a light. W1 Now see, I didn't see that. I saw just a plain light. DW Do you know what color it was? W2 One was white and one was bright white...you could tell they were definitely connected, because if the nose dropped, the tail went up exactly. But anyhow, when the thing got closer to the water, the one bright light started twirling like all different colors: red, green, blue, yellow, and then it just sunk into the water and one end was white and one end was red. Then it just sat in the water for about a half hour and then it was gone. While it was sitting on the ice, those planes were hovering above it. You could see that they were flashing lights down on it. It was like five jets within maybe a quarter mile area of each other, and all of a sudden they were just gone. They just went up in the air and out, just out. RD About what time did they leave like that? W2 9:30 or a quarter to ten... DW Did you talk with the Coast Guard guys? W2 Yeah, we sat and talked to them for a half hour. We watched the thing for an hour. DW What were they saying? W2 They couldn't believe it. They said they never saw nothing like it in the world. The guy said he's been in the service for years and he said he knows that a Harrier jet can't take off and fly that fast from a start. This thing got up so high in the air and was gone so fast, it was seconds and it was gone out of view. The night was so clear that we could see for miles and miles and miles...These two guys were so scared. They thought, first our assumption was it was a satellite, maybe from Canada, that went bad and it was coming down over the lake. They told me that they believed it was Canadian air maneuvers. But then when they saw these planes, they came about five miles off shore and they were going about fifty feet above the ice. You could just see the ice and stuff rippling behind them. They got nervous because they didn't want their truck to be seen...they were afraid maybe a missle would be shot at them or something. RD Is there any confusion in your mind that it was maybe the moon or the stars...? W2 No. No, not the first night. The second night it was much, much much higher in the air. Miles and miles. But the second night, it appeared at the same time and dropped down in the lake at the same time...But the first night, no way. We went and saw that thing. That thing was no more than three miles in the air. RD You're aware that the newspaper accouunts are that it was the planets? W2 Planets, right. No that's BULL****, because I went and stood out on the lake and looked up at them and I saw the thing moving. You could see it pivoting like this (gesturing in a rocking motion like a teeter-totter). When it got way out over the lake, that thing just started spinning around, it was all different kinds of lights... The interview continued and more sketches were made by W1. In being asked to draw the small objects, she drew a triangle. RD When it landed on the ice, did it seem like it went under the surface of the water, or did it rest on the ice for a period of time. W1 I don't know. Sue saw it too from her back yard. You could see it sit down though. It didn't look like it sunk. We went down the next day to see if we could see anything. All you could see was ice broken everywhere. Huge, huge chunks of ice... DW Which Coast Guard Station? W2 & W1 Fairport Harbor. DW Did they come up, did they drive up? That's quite a way down isn't it? W2 They drove this way. They said they could see the lights from their Coast Guard station. W1 Right. They were watching it and observing it from the Coast Guard station itself and didn't know what to make out of the little lights. DW Did they tell you why they decided to come up here? W2 Yeah, beacuse they got so many calls that they wanted to come and investigate it. They had even called us back a few times that night. W1 They said it was totally out of their league. They didn't know what it was or what it could be. They didn't want to speculate. They also said to us, even on the next day, that the Army and I guess, NASA did not want them to investigate any further. They did not want them to go out on the ice, because they have a cutter. They could have gone out to see where it landed, because their men made a report too. Somewhere along the line...and they could not get an answer from NASA, they couldn't get an answer from anybody. And they were told NOT to do anything about it, that it was out of their league, it was RD They were told it was out of their league? W1 Uh-huh. RD That' a quote? W1 Yes. It was out of their league and out of their hands. That's exactly what they told us. I talked to...a person in command there and he got on the phone with me and that's exactly what he told me also. That they had to forward all their information to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base and a place in Detroit, which I don't know where in Detroit they were going to send something, but they said the were NOT ALLOWED to investigate it any further, that that's what they were told and to stay out of it...I wrote down their names because I was so upset that they called the police on me. DW Did they ever tell you not to talk about it? W1 They told me that it was just more or less, that it was out of their league and no one would, more or less, believe me and I think that's what they were getting at when they talked to me...I mean, they sent the police to my house, and that was more a harrassment than anything else. You could tell they didn't want to talk about it either, because I called them back the next day and they were real snotty to me on the phone. Investigation forms were then completed, and the photograph taken on the same night in a location several miles to the southeast was shown to the witnesses. They confirmed that the triangular object shown in the photograph was identical to the triangular objects they had observed on the same night. Clearly, these witnesses, the Coast Guard, other independent witnesses who have been interviewed, and the photographic evidence all confirm that the Venus/Jupiter hypothesis offered by the skeptical "experts" as the ultimate solution to this case has no merit or validity. The responses of these experts are invited. Rick Dell'Aquila and Dale Wedge Copyright 1988, Richard P. Dell'Aquila and Dale B. Wedge ------------------------------------------------------------------------ FILENAME: LAKERIE.UFO N.E. OHIO FLAP by Richard P. Dell'Aquila Richard P. Dell'Aquila and Dale B. Wedge, MUFON State Section Directors for Cuyahoga, Lake, Geauga and Ashtabula Counties (Ohio) have been investigating a series of sightings, beginning about March 4, 1988 and seemingly centered around the Perry Nuclear Plant, and the CEI coal burning plant at Eastlake, both on the shore of Lake Erie, east of Cleveland, Ohio. March 4th was a clear, crisp nigh t and the stars were clearly visible, especially to the north over the lake where there are no city lights. Venus and Jupiter were bright and in close proximity to each other in the western sky. At about 6:30 P.M., S.B. (name and address provided to MUFON) and her children were driving home to Eastlake along the lake shore when they observed a large blimp-like object with bright white lights at each end, hovering over the lake and rocking end to end l ike a "teeter-totter." One light was brighter t han the other and was strobing. On arriving home, she asked her husband to accompany her to the beach about 200 yards north for a closer view of the object which they later described as "larger than a football held at arm's length." She and her husband walked onto the beach. The noiseless object was gun metal gray and seemed to cause the ice on the lake to rumble and crack loudly in an unusual way which frightened her. The witnesses had to shout to be heard by ea ch other, and were surpr ised that no dogs were out barking as would have been expected. After observing the object for a while, the couple became concerned for the safety of their children in the car when the object revolved slowly about 90 degrees, coming almost overhead (about 1/4 mile high) and pointing its "front" end down toward them. They drove the children home and continued watching the object from their living room window which fac es the lake. A neighbor was phoned and she and her son went to the beach, reporting the same thing. They took photographs which did not turn out. The object began to descend and the witnesses returned to the beach, where it was now observed to have red and blue blinking lights along its bottom edge. It emitted 5 or 6 noiseless, intensly bright yellow triangular lights from its side. They intermittently hovered around the larger object, darted and zig-zagged into the night sky at velocities far in excess of known aircraft. Mr. B stated the triangular objects we re smaller than a one-seat Cessna and "crossed 50 mile stretches low over the ice in the snap of a finger." They were said to be able to approach the shore, turn abrupt right angles due east toward the Perry Nuclear Plant about 12 miles away, climbing rapidly and returning again, all within several seconds. By this time, a Coast Guard patrol vehicle had arrived on the beach in response to S.B.'s several phone calls. The triangular objects came closer t o the shore, causing the witnesses to become concerned that the lights on the Coast Guard vehicle would attract the objects and the lights were turned off. The triangles continued to fly off at high speed northward over the lake and eastward toward the Perry Nuclear Plant. About an hour later, they returned one at a time into the large ship, which then landed on the ice. Several multi-colored lights now came on for about 5 minutes (Page 1 of 3) on the bottom of the object "in a wave like a mo vie theater sign" and the brighter white light on the end began strobing red and white. When these went off, the ice stopped making noise and everything became "dead silent." The object could no longer be seen within about a half hour and it was assumed to have gone below the surface. The next day, unusually huge pieces of broken ice were observed in the area of the landing. The Coast Guard informed Mr. and Mrs. B the followi ng day that the Army and NASA, whom S.B. had also phoned, instructed them no t to investigate the matter further or go out on the lake in their cutter to examine the ice in the area of the landing, since the matter was "out of their league and out of their hands." They informed the couple that all information was being forwarded to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base and a facility in Detroit, Michigan. In response to a Coast Guard inquiry, Wright-Patterson refused to confirm or deny any interest in these activities. O n the next night, the same witnesses observed sever al triangular objects over the lake for about 45 minutes. By the time Coast Guard personnel arrived on the scene, the objects were gone. On March 7, 1988, the Cleveland Plain Dealer and Lake County News-Herald carried articles which attributed a series of reports of large brightly lit objects over Lake Erie on the prior weekend to several witnesses'misidentification of the planets Venus and Jupiter. The newspaper accounts indicated that the Fairport Harbor Coast Guard went to the area and saw a large bright object that seemed to dispurse smaller, bright multi-colored objects. But when they called the local air traffic controllers, they were "informed" that Jupiter and Venus were in alignment and that the colors were the result of "spontaneous gas emissions from the two planets." One article even attributed this amazing explanation to a professor of astronomy at a local university. On reading the articles, Dell'Aquila felt it was unlikely that U.S. Coast Guard personnel, trained in navigation and identification of basic celestial objects such as the planets, could have made such a gross misidentification. Likewise, the statement attributed to the professor of astronomy was equally unacceptable, in that no other similar "spontaneous gas emission" from the planets cited, of the necessary magnitude, had ever been noted, particulary on this weekend. In the course of the follow-up investigation by Dell'Aquila and Wedge, a Coast Guard incident report was found (p res ently in MUFON's possession) which states that Coast Guard personnel responded to several calls reporting UFOs over Lake Erie on the night of March 4, 1988. When the Coast Guard arrived, the report confirms that a large object "dispersed 3-5 smaller flying objects that were zipping around rather quickly. These objects had red, green white, and yellow lights on them that strobed intermittently. They also had the ability to stop and hover in mid-flight." The incident report confirms Mr. and Mrs. B 's reports, including the abnormal cracking of the ice as the object came closer to it and apparently landed. "The smaller objects began hovering in the area where the large object landed (about 1/4 mile east of the CEI power plant) and after a few minutes they began flying around again." The report states that, "One of the small objects turned on a spotlight where the large object had been, but [the Coast Guard personnel] could not see anything, and then the object seemed to disappear. Another ob ject approached [these personnel] approximately 500 yards offshore about 20 feet above the ice, and it began moving closer as [the Coast Guard] began flashing its headlights, then it moved off to the west." (Page 2 of 3) A subsequent Coast Guard report (also in possession of MUFON) prepared after the sightings of the following night attributes the sightings to misidentifications of the planets Venus and Jupiter and says, "the fla shing lights are gases in the at mosphere...Request incident closed this unit." In response to a classified advertisement placed by the investigators, other witnesses contacted Dell'Aquila and Wedge, and have been interviewed as the investigation continues. On the same night (March 4th) at about 10:00 P.M., and continuing until approximately 10:30 P.M., C.H. (name and address provided to MUFON) also reported a UFO near her home, which is a few miles south of the lake shore and just east of the Perr y Nuclear Plant. C.H. was walking a puppy when she noticed the stationary triangular object in the southeasterly sky. It was much brighter than the moon, and seemed to upset the puppy, which she took back indoors. Returning outdoors, she reported that the object began sequentially flashing multi-colored lights, suspended in rows below the base of the triangle. The witness responded by flashing her cigarette lighter and the UFO's light pattern beca me more erratic. At one point, the triangle revolved clockwise, turning it s apex about 90 degrees to a horizontal position, but still flashing the rows of light. After several minutes, it turned back counter-clockwise as it simultaneously accelerated away to the south at a high rate of speed, disappearing behind some trees. No noise or odor was reported. At about 10:30 P.M. that night T.K. (name and address provided to MUFON), took a photograph in his back yard, within a few miles of the Perry Nuclear Plant, showing a portion of a brightly lit triangular object travelling across the sky (Photograph in possession of MUFON). This object was later confirmed by Mr. and Mrs. B and C.H. to be identical to the triangular objects they were also observing about the same time a few miles away, and is also similar to one reported to Phil Imbrogno as having been near the Indian Point Nuclear Power Plant in New York State on the same night. T.K. and his friend were outdoors on the night of March 4th, observing the stars throu gh his telescope. Venus and Jupiter were reported to be in the western sky behind a stand of trees. While looking southward through the telescope, out of the corner of his left eye, T.K. noticed a bright, moving object in the sky. He and his friend were awe-struck by the triangular object, but he did have the presence of mind to take 3 photographs with a small "snapshot" type camera loaded with Kodak 110 color film, with which they had intended to photograph stars through the telescope. Only one photograph turned out. It is the l ast in the series, taken while panning ahead of the object, and shows the front portion of the triangle. The object was described as about 3-4 inches tall at arm's length and glowing an intense yellow/orange to white, with a bright orange/red glow behind it. It seemed to pulse brighter and dimmer, moving in a roughly southwesterly direction until it was obscured by trees. As it moved, it accelerated, slowed and accelerated again. No sound or smell was noted, although his dog had a strong reaction , running in circles and tugging on T.K.'s sleeve, apparently in an attempt to urge him away from the object. Total time of observation was a few minutes. Dell'Aquila and Wedge continue to receive reports of additional UFOs over the same period, some supported by photographs, as the sightings continue to the date of this writing. Supplementary reports will be provided as the investigation of the flap progresses. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- [The following is an edited version of Sunday, January 8, 1989 online CO with Rick Dell'Aquila discussing his investigation of the Lake Erie UFO] 8:07:29 PM EST Sunday, January 8, 1989 User User ID Nod Rm Name / Forum Area ---- ------------ --- --- ----------------- 36 76012,3361 MRT 5 Ted 46 71330,3655 JAK 5 GREG 56 75376,1620 CVK 5 Dale 63 73367,472 CVK 5 Rick 65 76004,2063 ACM 5 mike h 78 70511,17 CRZ 5 Mike 95 72377,1264 ANY 5 jc 94 71450,3504 ANN 5 Bert 103 71340,276 SOR 5 Mark.Y 129 76703,603 DCI 5 Jim Horn VETSIG (Ted) Our special Guest tonight is Cleveland attorney and UFO investigator, Rick Dell'Aquila. Rick and his investigative partner, Dale Wedge, are responsible for the investigation of the Lake Erie UFO. In addition to numerous files on this subject in LIBrary 10, the next issue of The MUFON Journal will feature this case in an article titled "Ohio Flap". Any opening remarks Rick? GA (5,Rick) Thanks Ted...Hello everyone. I first became aware of this case on reading an article in the Cleveland Plain Dealer 3/7/88, attributing a series of UFO reports by the Coast Guard and civilians near the CEI coal-burning power plant over Lake Erie on 3/4/88 to misidentifications of the planets Venus and Jupiter which were in close proximity to each other that weekend. The article quoted a local astronomer that lights reported entering and leaving the "planets" were "spontaneous gas emissions" from the planets' surface. I would have turned to the next page but for this ridiculous explanation. Instead, I phoned the astronomer who confirmed that the planetary explanation was his theory because "if they did not relate what they saw to the planets, then they must have been seeing the planets." But the first time he had heard the "spontaneous gas" explanation was when he read it in the paper himself. By now I was very curious about the accuracy of the rest of the article and I phoned my co-investigator, Dale Wedge. Dale and I began an investigation and ran a classified ad we received a response from someone who had taken a photo of a brightly glowing triangular object over his yard that same night near the Perry Nuclear Plant on Lake Erie and in the course of our investigation, we found several other witnesses who have seen some things over the same period. We also obtained a Coast Guard incident report on the sighting and interviewed witnesses on the beach with the Coast Guard. They described several small brightly glowing triangular objects zipping over the lake leaving a wake of ice below and behind them. These objects were emitted from a large football shaped object that ultimately landed on the ice below the horizon. The ice was crackling loudly and in an abnormal manner until the object landed and everything came deathly silent. The local CSICOP membership contends that the large object was the planets and the smaller triangular objects were the wings of seagull illuminated by moonlight. The photograph was examined by Dr. Maccabee and found to depict a uniformly glowing bright triangular object. ga (Ted) I'll now open the floor to ? ga (5,Bert) ? (5,Bert) Rick, can you tell us how you were able to come by the Coast Guard report? Also. What do you have now in the way of results of FOIA requests, etc. GA (5,Rick) A copy of the report was obtained by other investigators through the FOIA after the Coast Guard first denied its existence. I originally obtained a copy from a confidential source...However, as I say, the Coast Guard has since released it through FOIA. ga (Ted) At the MUFON meeting in Lincoln you were discussing the Lake Erie UFO photos with Dr. Bruce Maccabee when Bert and I walked up to you. Has the good Dr. done any analysis yet? And if so what are the results? ga (5,Rick) Yes, he has examined it and some other information we sent him concerning the camera...His opinion is that the image depicted is not the result of a flaw in the film or camera, but an accurate depiction of some uniformly glowing triangular shaped object...Based upon his calculations and our measurements at the scene, the roughly equilateral triangle is approximately 25-35 feet tall. ga (Ted) ga Bert (5,Bert) Rick the fact that the CG has released the report via FOIA seems to acknowledge that something did indeed go on. Did any additional information get released as well, or do you think they release the copy simply because they knew it was already captured. Also, who did they release the report to? (5,Rick) Dale and I have been knocking ourselves out trying to take this investigation to the next logical step, which is to interview the USCG themselves. This has been an exercise in futility to this point. I do not believe that there has been an explicit admission by the USCG that something unexplained went on. Their position is that their personnel misidentified the planets for a period exceeding one hour using binoculars and describing the erratic movements, spotlights, colors, etc. which are in the report and the witnesses description. The report was printed in a CAUS Bulletin and released to several other investigators after Dale and I made it public. ga (Ted) What did the CG have to say about their comment that they were told "This is out of their league? " GA (5,Mark.Y) ? (5,Rick) This was a statement made to the civilian witnesses the hearsay we have is to the effect that the USCG wanted to go out on the lake the next day to investigate but were told not to do so since the matter was "out of their league." ga (Ted) Mark Y is next GA Mark (5,Mark.Y) (Slightly off the topic.) Were there multiple evenings of sightings or is this an isolated case? GA (5,Rick) There have been multiple evening and multiple witness sightings over this period, all seemingly within a 10-15 square mile area we have reports and investigations on-going over this area from September 1987 to as recently as November 1988...But that weekend seemed to be a peak period. ga (Ted) Is there any evidence of missing time with any of the witnesses? ga (5,Rick) No. ga (Ted) Can you tell us anything about the most recent sightings? ga (5,Rick) The 11/88 sighting involved a brightly lit cigar shape viewed in the daylight for about 15 minutes which is identical to one reported by two witnesses in September 1987. There have been reports of objects hovering over or near the nuclear power plant and one report of a low level fly-by by an unmarked black helicopter, among some other things. ga (5,Bert) ? (Ted) Ga Bert (5,Bert) Regarding the question of missing time is this issue routinely explored when you interview a witness? GA (5,Rick) Dale and I have been particularly sensitive to this question especially since one of the witnesses was pregnant at the time of the sighting. It would be premature for us to say anything about that subject without more than we have to this point. ga (5,Bert) follow (Ted) GA Bert (5,Bert) Are you saying then that the question of missing time is indeed discussed with your witnesses, but that it is premature to reveal it here? GA (5,Rick) No...I don't want you to jump to that conclusion...but we do routinely explore the question with the witnesses. ga (5,Dale) ! (Ted) GA Dale (5,Dale) I just wanted to note for Bert that the witness did have her baby in September of 1988. ga (Ted) What did it's eyes look like (HAH!) How many people, in total , have now seen this UFO? ga (5,Rick) On the night in question there were 4 civilians and two USCG personnel on the beach and two witnesses present in the area of the photograph. ga (Ted) How about other nights (or days? ) ga (5,Rick) We have been talking to about two dozen people to date. ga (5,Dale) ! (Ted) Ga Dale (5,Dale) On the question of the release of the USCG document, I think it is noteworthy to explain that an underling from the USCG released the document to a news source who wants to remain anonymous. Once that was done, I believe that they could not hide the fact that there was one, therefore, they had to release it to others. From that point, the well has dried up also, in Just Caus, someone asked through FOIA about USCG documents after the document we have. The USCG said they had no such documents, but Caus put the document that we have next to this letter of denial. You figure it out.ga (5,Bert) ? (Ted) Ga Bert (5,Bert) Rick. You and Dale have put together a nice collection of documents which give a rather comprehensive coverage of what happened the peak evening. Once you had all this info together along with the CG report, did you go to the news media with it?GA (5,Dale) ! (5,Rick) We have sent copies and letters to Television ,radio and print media throughout this part of Ohio with very little response, except for a local UHF TV station which interviewed me after their airing of UFO Coverup: Live. They have suggested a longer segment on this case with me but that has not yet materialized. ga (Ted) GA Dale (5,Dale) Correct me if I'm wrong Rick. I believe Rick contacted the media in an effort to gain information instead of publicizing it, up to the UFO Live program. There was a lady on an FM station that said her son was a USCG person at the scene of the incident on that night. Rick tried to get a copy of the tape but the radio station did not respond. We were contacted about going on TV around the time of the sightings, but felt that this would jeopardize the investigation with other who would state they saw the object for publicity sake. Now, I hope Rick can get on TV to promote the case and get more info from sources that may know something about that night.ga (Ted) mike h. did you have a ? ga (5,mike h) yep. Dale: I really hate to bring this up, but is the Sept. birth related to your now notorious benevolent disinformation campaign? And what are we supposed to believe about the Erie information if this is indeed the case? ga (5,Dale) Rick had no knowledge of what I was doing. He has chastised me for it, since he has put so much time into this case. This, in my opinion is Rick's case, and in that manner, you should only give credibility to his facts, and not mine. Rick is a credible attorney and investigator and should not be questioned.ga (5,mike h) sorry (Ted) No one here is above "questioning" but I think I understand what you mean. Rick have you read any of the Cooper/Lear "stuff" and if so what do you think? ga (5,Rick) Yes I have read those materials and I am waiting for evidence as far as my personal opinion: I HOPE its not true. ga (Ted) SO do I. Several months ago we had a member by the name of Neil Palumbo who was investigating a case of UFO crashing through the ice near Rochester. Have you any knowledge of this person or his case? ga (5,Rick) Someone mentioned it to me briefly and I find this one of the more interesting aspects of these cases...That (At least at Lake Erie) the object landed below the horizon onto the ice, where the smaller triangular objects returned and hovered over it as it emitted several bright lights, one of the triangle shone a spotlight onto the large object and at some point the entered the large object one by one, whereupon it shut off its lights and was no longer visible...But these things have been reported from time to time over Lake Erie as well as Lake Ontario. ga (Ted) I think it was Palumbo that claimed to have evidence of an under water structure. Dale, do you remember any of this? ga (5,Dale) Yes. I believe that Neil had been working at a library and ran across some maps that showed (to him) that there were some under water bases in Lake Ontario. I don't recall the extent or the information that he had on this. I believe that there was something in LIB10 on this at one time.ga (5,Bert) ! (Ted) Perhaps in light of recent information it might be a good idea to contact him. GA Bert (5,Bert) As I recall Palumbo and several others have been investigating UFOs entering and leaving the water at a sight near Toronto. They apparently had been studying this for some time and were going to put the story together in a book that would come out in 1990. I remember he said that what they think is some sort of base could actually be seen in some satellite photographs, but he would not tell us where to look, because he didn't want to give the story away. I got the feeling that he eventually was afraid he told us too much and that is why he stopped showing up here on Sunday evenings. In any case, I think Dale actually spoke to him on the phone. Is that right Dale. GA (5,Dale) ! (Ted) Ga Dale (5,Dale) I wanted to say Bert is absolute correct, the maps that Neil spoke about were satellite photo maps that he ran across. Where he never did disclose to me. I was unable to gain information in talking to him and just sent him copies of our information at that time.ga (Ted) His PPN is 71211,2217 (5,Rick) Before we sign-off here, I wanted to leave my post office box in case anyone wants to drop me a line, or if Mr. Palumbo should read this: P.O. Box 29163 Parma, Ohio 44129 (5,Dale) ! (Ted) GA Dale (5,Dale) I have a question for Rick. Rick and I have been upset that this case hasn't made the MUFON Journal, since it gives many different elements not seen in a lot of cases (e.g., official documents, photos, and multiple independent witnesses). Rick, when did you find out that they would put your article in the Journal and what will it say as opposed to the article that was written last year, but not published? ga (5,Rick) This has been a disappointment for me apparently, MUFON will print a VERY preliminary summary which was sent to them in April of 1988 when Dale and I were hip deep in the investigation (complete with telephone problems). The first notice that I had about the article being printed came from Ted this morning. I regret that MUFON didn't contact us sooner before printing the article since we have so much more and better information to add now. ga (5,Dale) ! (Ted) GA Dale (5,Bert) ! (5,Dale) I was just wondering if this was done in order to get the Central States most important case in the Journal before an award was made? Dan Wright stated that this was the most important case in this sector of MUFON. Perhaps it had to be justified through printing in the Journal.ga (Ted) Let me state how this information came to me. In preparation for tonight's CO I called Walt Andrus (I think on Thursday.) I asked him why this case hadn't gotten more attention as it was fascinating to me. He said that it was to appear in the next issue which was at the printers and should be in the mail in a week to 10 days. He also stated that the article was to be titled "Ohio Flap". Perhaps either Dale or Rick should confirm this. GA (5,Bert) ! (5,Rick) I guess I am pleased that it will finally be publicized, but as I say, the article which will appear does not do justice to the scope and details of the on-going "flap". ga (Ted) GA Bert (5,Bert) Just for the record, it's worth noting that in the FENWICK files, which are on LIB10, there is reference to a UFO base located in Lake Ontario near Hamilton. That would place it in the same area that Palumbo et al are doing their research. I would recommend taking a look at that part of the file, Rick. I say "that part", because it is quite long and much of it seems pretty "far out". GA (5,Rick) Thanks for the reminder...I did download that file, I believe from Paranet...I'll have to look at it again. ga (Ted) Dale did you have a comment? ga (5,Dale) No sir. I just guess maybe one. I wish Rick could have given justice to the upcoming MUFON article by having the chance to upgrade his article. The article you will read was done in the midst of the investigation, and not towards the end. I guess lastly, Rick, is there anything available through the mail about the investigation that can be given out rather cheaply to those interested?ga (5,Bert) ! (5,Rick) Yes...If anyone wants more info, write me at the Post Office Box. I'm a little slow in responding, but I do get around to it, and since we intend to continue pressing this investigation, there seems to be new developments regularly. ga (Ted) GA Bert (5,Bert) Just wondered if you had considered sending some of your material to UFO magazine or UFO Universe? GA (5,Rick) Dale and I have talked about that and we will probably do something along those lines eventually. ga (Ted) What is this I hear about a book in the works? ga (5,Dale) ! (5,Rick) Why does every investigation need to conclude in a book? I think this sort of thing is the best way to get the most current information out there. ga (Ted) Dale care to comment? ga (5,Dale) I agree with Rick, but one thing that I would like to do is get Rick out here to test out my handy dandy new VHS Camera and do a poorly done video to show you what we did throughout this. This could help others understand what we went through, what was done, and what can be done better. The Coyne's did it Rick, remember? (Ted) The Coyne's ? ga (5,Dale) The Coyne's did a video on investigation. Rather good, but I think we could make a video that is really quite interesting.ga (Ted) Shirley and George? ga (5,Dale) yeah.ga (Ted) I'd like to see that. ga (5,Rick) Not a bad idea. ga (Ted) Sounds like you have a winner Dale! ga (5,Rick) Let's talk later. ga (5,Dale) The thing is this is if this ever happens again, I want to film it as it happens from start to finish. Rick and I were left to audio tape, we taped everything. Video would be a great asset for us all.ga (Ted) Any other ?s ga (Ted) Rick I want to thank you for spending your evening with us. It has been informative and interesting. I will forward a copy of this CO to you after I have cleaned it up. Again, thanks and don't be such a stranger to the ISSUES forum. We are international and would love to have you visit us from time to time. ga (5,Rick) Thanks I'll stay in touch...Are you going to be in Las Vegas this summer? ga (Ted) I sure hope so. Anyone else? ga Let's hear it from those that plan to go to the MUFON Las Vegas symposium. GA (Ted) ME! (5,Mike) Hope so! (5,Dale) Need a baby sitter (Ted) Take him with you! (5,JIM) Do MUFONs bite? (5,Rick) grrr ---EOF--- Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!think.com!rpi!masscomp!peora!tous!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: INFO: Incident At Indian Point - Imbrogno Message-ID: <1991Sep28.194235.12505@bilver.uucp> Date: 28 Sep 91 19:42:35 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 610 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2201 alt.conspiracy:7688 sci.skeptic:15657 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This information is presented for your persusal and is a continuation of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-) As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups exclusively, comments to me should be directed to dona@bilver.uucp in mail. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Incident At Indian Point Part I By. Philip J. Imbrogno The Indian Point nuclear reactor complex lies on the shore of the Hudson River in the town of Buchanan, New York in Westchester county. There are two reactor plants on the site each separated only by a fence. One site belongs to Consolidated Edison Electric company and the other is operated by the New York Power Authority (NYPA). The two plants have always been controversial and area residents have tried to shut down operations at both plants for the past ten years. At present, the only reactor in operation is site Number 3 of the NYPA. It is here that an incredible incident with an object that was not of this world would take place. Security at the Indian point complex is very good and they have been trained to handle all types of incidents from meltdown to terrorists. The security guards at the NYPA site are all ex-police officers with a great deal of training. But all their training would not prepare them for what would take place on July 24, 1984. It was on this date that they would have a close encounter with Hudson valley UFO. The first time I heard about the sighting over the reactor was on September 2, 1984, about a month and a half after it happened. I was doing a radio talk show called "The Edge of Reality" on WNBC in New York. After the show I received dozens of calls, and one caller identified himself as a guard at Indian Point. I had heard that there had been a sighting there but could not get any information because of the tight security at the plant. The caller told me that he had been on duty on that night of July 24, 1984 and at about 10:15 P.M a giant UFO hovered over reactor number three no more than 300 feet above the exhaust tower for fifteen minutes. This was exciting information because that same night, at 10:00 Bob Pozzuoli of Brewster New York videotaped the Hudson Valley UFO, a videotape that still remains unidentified to this day. Brewster is located about twenty miles east of Indian Point and there is no doubt that it was the same object because it was reported by hundreds of people in all the towns between Brewster and Buchanan. The caller went on to tell me that the event was so shocking that the commander was ready to give orders to shoot the UFO down. He then told me that the object was at least 900 feet from end to end and was also witnessed by eleven other guards at the NYPA complex and about a dozen security guards at the adjacent Consolidated Edison plant. Since the callers job is at risk I can not give his name so I will refer to him at Jeff. I had asked Jeff to meet with me to get the entire story. He told me that he would have to first get clearance from his supervisor. On September 5 I received a call from Jeff informing me that his supervisor cleared me to come to the plant and interview the guards involved. I was told that a camera and tape recorder would not be allowed on the complex site for security reasons, I agreed to the terms. The interview was set for September 7th in the afternoon. Everything looked fine and I was quite excited about the information that I was going to obtain, then all hell broke loose. Twenty-four hours before the meeting Jeff called me and told me that the meeting was off and I would not be allowed on the plant. Orders came from state headquaters forbidding any of the guards to talk with me about the UFO sighting. Little did I know that on the same day of the call the entire complex underwent a security shakeup by the Nuclear Reglatory Commission(NRC) and other government agencies who I found out later were Military and belonging to some special military force that is responsible for security of government istallations in the area. I also found out that although the Indian Point complex is operated by the NYPA and provides some of the power for the New York City Subway system, it is also operated by federal government personnel and provides power for a number of secret government bases and operations in the Connectciut - New York area. One such place is an NSA satellite tracking station located in Sandyhook Connecticut. The cancelled interview with the guards was very disappointing. The airspace above Indian Point is restricted and no aircraft of any kind is allowed to fly over the reactors without the proper clearance. Something huge had definitely invaded the reactor's security zone and although I knew something about the incident, I had none of the details that Jeff and his fellow guards could give me. Many other people in the area also reported seeing the UFO over the plant. Police in Pekskill New York which is the town just south of Indian point said they received quite a few calls that evening. Sgt Hoffman of the Peekskill Police Department went out to invesigate and saw a giant UFO with over a dozen white lights in a V formation slowly move toward the Indian Point power plant. Sgt Hoffman a trained observer admits that he never saw anything like it before in his life. Although I had many other witnesses who saw the UFO from outside the plant I still needed to find out what went on inside the security area of the reactor during the sighting. The only way that I was going to really find out is to talk to the people on duty that night. Something extraordinary must have taken place for them to quickly deny me to interview the guards, and what was the purpose of the security shakeup? I decided to try to put a little pressure on the supervisors at the plant. In the past several months I developed a good working relationship with NBC news in New York City. They gave the UFO sightings in the Hudson Valley top priority and I knew they would be very interested to hear about the close encounter at Indian Point. I informed the manager at Indian point that I was going to go to the TV news stations with the story unless I was allowed to speak to the officers. After about an hour on the phone the manager finally agreed to let us talk to the guards."We really would like to keep the entire incident quiet" the manager said. " The reactor is highly controversial and we know that the opponets against nuclear power in the area will use the sighting to their advantage. They might claim that our security people are a risk because they reported a flying saucer". I wondered if this was the real reason. After all, the plants security was violated and it seemed that they had no power at all to stop the intruder that appeared over their airspace. Although we now had permission to talk with the guards, there were stipulations. A security person would have to be present or informed on the content of the questions. They would permit one meeting only and it could not be anywhere on the reactor site. I also agreed not to release any information about the sighting over the reactor for at least thirty days after the interview. The interview took place on September 12 in Peekskill, New York at a local restaurant, at about 10:00pm. With me during the interview was UFO researcher Fred Dennis, Fairfield Connecticut police Lt. George Lesnick and Citizens Against UFO Secrecy(CAUS) attorney Peter Gersten. Six of the guards showed up and because of the lateness of the hour, we were only able to talk in depth with three at that time. Jeff told me that he had been working at Indian Point security for about two years and before that he was a New York State Tropper. As we talked I asked about the July 24th sighting and Jeff said that that was the second sighting date. "Second I asked." Jeff told me that the first sighting of the UFO was on July 14 at about 10:15 at night. Jeff said that he was on outside patrol at Indian Point Number Three when he saw a series of lights approaching the plant from the distance. I asked Jeff what he meant by "number three" Jeff said that there were three reactors at the NYPA plant and that two were shut down and the only reactor in operation was number three. Because of this security is always "beefed up" at that site. Jeff continued to describe how the lights continued to approach. He described the lights as being white with a yellow hue and about a quarter of a mile away and moving very slow in his direction. Being close to the Consolidated Edison plant he looked and saw ten of their security people also looking at the lights. Jeff then got on his radio and called some of the other guards from his area to come and look at the lights. Jeff knew this was something strange and wanted someone to come and assist him if he needed help since the object was still heading directly toward the plant. Jeff told me that two other guards responded to his call. As the two other guards joined Jeff the object stopped and hovered about about a quarter mile from the outer perimeter of the plant. Jeff described the object as ten lights arranged in a boomerang pattern. The object continued to hover for ten minutes, they could not make out any shape behind the lights. Jeff told me that the lights were very bright and from its apparent size in the sky he estimated that it was at least 300 feet from each end light on the boomerang pattern. As they watched the object they noticed a dark mass behind the lights. They thought this was very strange, since the lights were so bright they should have made the body behind this object much more visible. The object then started to move toward Peekskill at such a slow speed they estimated it was no more than twenty miles an hour. Jeff and the other two guards(who were also present at the meeting) had no doubt that what they were seeing was not any aircraft or formation of aircraft, helicopters or anything else they ever saw in their life. Jeff said that at the time of the sighting the wind was gusting up to 35 miles an hour. If this was a blimp or formation of small aircraft it could have never hovered for ten minutes. "This thing was unaffected by the wind he said" He also heard no sound at all. During the sighting they tried to identify the aircraft by checking local and military air traffic, but all proved negative. Jeff also said that they saw no familar naigation lights which aircraft are required to carry. As they continued to watch the object move away they saw it turn to the southeast. "As it turned" Jeff said, "It turned like it was lying on a wheel, it rotated. It made a sharp ninety-degree turn and moved away very slowly." I then asked Jeff about the July 24th sighting. Jeff said he first heard about the UFO being seen again by a call on his radio. Another security guard was talking to the inside desk how those lights were coming close to the plant. At that time five guards including two supervisors responded to the call and saw the lights, Jeff was with them. Jeff told me" It approached from the same direction as the June 14th sighting, but this time the lights were changing color. First they would all turn yellow, then white and then they all turned blue. There were about fifteen lights this time all arranged in a semi-circle with a red one flashing in the back. It was a nice clear night and as the object approached the plant it blocked out the stars. The night sky in that area is heavily light poluted and you could see a dark mass against the brighter night sky. The object came right over the plant and there was no sound at all. I got to within 500 feet from it. It looked like an icecream cone with the lights in a half circle in the front and a red one in its tail. You could see the solid body it covered up the entire sky and was the size of at least three football fields. At this time it was directly over our heads, and we were looking up at it. It was moving very slowly and I could keep up with it at a slow walk, so it must have been going slower than ten miles an hour. No aircraft could stay airborne moving at that slow speed." Jeff said that he and the other guards watched it for about twenty minutes and all the time they were in radio contact with security headquarters inside the plant. Jeff said that out of the three reactors only one was in operation and the UFO picked that one to hover and then fly over. He also said that the object was very low, no more than 300 feet above the exhaust tower, that would place it about 700 feet above the ground. "Our supervisor got worried when it flew over the working reactor", Jeff said. "This thing got to within thirty feet of reactor number three" As with the first sighting, the winds were gusting. A check with the Westchester County Airport showed that the winds during the July 24th sighting gusted at 40 miles an hour. "We were standing there with our mouths open", Jeff said " We were in awe of it!. If the thing stayed over us, the order was already given to get ready to shoot it down. We had shotguns and were waiting for the final word to fire upon it" Another guard who we shall call Robert was on duty inside, watching the TV monitors at the security console that allows him to point the surveillance cameras at all parts of the plant. Robert told me that he pointed a camera that was located on a ninety-five foot pole at the object. When the object came on the screen he and the supervisor were shocked. Robert told me." I saw eight bright lights in a V shape, very wide in the shape of almost a half circle. The lights were very bright, at least as bright as the landing lights on a large jet. My supervisor and I panned the camera up and down, and the object was very large, bigger than a football field". Robert said that the object was so huge that he had to pan the camera 180 degrees to see the entire UFO! He said that there was no doubt that it was one solid structure and I had it on the camera for fifteen minutes. Still shaken by the event Robert concluded by saying " I was trying to find some logical explanation for this. Whatever it was, it was larger than a C-5A which is the largest aircraft in the world and has a wingspan of 212 feet. If this thing were placed alongside this aircraft the C-5A would look like a toy. It seemed very brazen and just sat there in the sky for my camera, it acted like it didn't care who saw it". Another guard who I shall refer to as Mike told me" There was this series of lights in a boomerang pattern, and behind the lights was this dark structure, and there were these things on the bottom of the object that looked like hollow spheres of some sort. They looked like portals that could open up and rockets or something could fly out of there. These portals were so large that you could fit a car in them easily. I got a good look at it, it was very low. It was so close to us that I actually got scared looking at it." I then asked Jeff if the incident was reported, he told me that they did file a report and were ready to take action, but then the object moved away toward the Hudson and picked up speed and was gone. I was told at the time that plant operations were in no way affected. The interview ended at this time. As we walked to our cars outside Jeff offered to take me over to the plant and sneak me on to show me where he saw the object. I was ready to go, but turned down the offer because of the sound advice of Fred Dennis. Fred was worried that if I was caught charges could be brought against me and Jeff could lose his job. Before we parted Jeff told me that he was very interested in finding out what he saw and would "Keep on searching for answers". On the way home Fred and I talked about what we were told. We both agreed that they seemed a little worried about relating the story and very uneased. We were to learn later that a security supervisor was several tables away listening to the entire conversation. Also there was no doubt in our mind that the guards were debriefed about their sighting and were told what they could tell us and could not tell us. One week latter Jeff gave me a call and said that he would like to meet with me again. There was a number of things which he was not a liberty to talk about at the time. He said that much more happened during the July 24th sighting and he has to meet with me. The second meeting with Jeff took place on October 4th at a place called the By Pass Diner in Peekskill, New York. This time Jeff was in civilian clothes. He insisted that he not be tape recorded and proceeded to fill in the gaps of the Close Encounter over Reactor number Three at Indian Point. Part II of Incident at Indian Point will be uploaded soon.Details of my investigations in the Hudson Valley are documented in my book NIGHT SIEGE THE HUDSON VALLEY UFO SIGHTINGS which I coauthored with Dr. J. Allen Hynek and Bob Pratt. Incident At Indian Point Part II By: Philip J. Imbrogno In the first part of this article I presented a very dramatic sighting of a UFO by New York State Power Authority Police officers stationed at the Indian Point Nuclear reactor in Buchanan, New York. The guards at the Indian point complex had a close encounter with a UFO that has been appearing in the Hudson Valley area of New York for the past six years.These sightings are documented in my book NIGHT SIEGE THE HUDSON VALLEY UFO SIGHTINGS, (Ballantine Books 1987). The sighting of the UFO from the reactor area took place on July 24th 1984 at about 10:20.PM. The sighting took place on the same night the UFO was video taped in Brewster, New York which is located about twenty miles east of Buchanan. This video tape was looked at twice by scientists from the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, California and the image on the video still remains unidentified to this day. The entire Indian point sighting was brought to my attention when one of the guards at the plant contacted me. To protect his identity I refer to him as "Jeff". Had it not been for Jeff coming forward with his story, the entire incredible sighting at Indian Point would have never been known. The Indian Point incident is the first case where a UFO was confirmed being over a Nuclear Reactor. My first meeting with Jeff (as reported in the last issue of UFO Universe) covered the basic facts of a truly amazing encounter by 12 guards at the reactor complex with a UFO that was reported to have hovered 300 feet above reactor number three for fifteen minutes. The UFO according to several of the officers was at least 900 feet from end to end. The second meeting with Jeff was at his request, since at the first meeting he was relactant to get into any details. I agreed to meet with him on October 4th 1984, at 11:00 Pm at a place called the By- Pass Diner in Peekskill, New York. Jeff showed up on time and was in civilan clothes. He insisted that he not be taped recorded and proceeded to fill in the gaps in the information that he gave me at our previous meeting. Jeff focused in on the July 24th sighting, since this was the date that the UFO caused a near panic at the reactor complex. With me at this second meeting was Fred Dennis, a seasoned UFO investigator and close friend. The July 24th 1984 encounter was more incredible than we first thought. As the object approached the east gate of the reactor complex the sensors that detect movement shut down and the entire alarm system failed. At this time Jeff radioed for assistance and several other officers left their posts and joined him at the east end of the plant to watch the object approach. Inside the security console the computer that controls all security and communications shut down. The cameras were still however functioning and we know for sure that the object was video taped. To this day , however the New York Power Authority (NYPA), and the Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC), deny that any such tape or recordings exist. The UFO continued to approach and hovered above reactor number three, the only reactor operational at the time. The commander at the plant took the proper action and the guards were armed with shot guns and given the order to fire upon the UFO if it did not move away from the plant. Although the entire plants security was alerted and the officers were well armed they felt helpless and were afarid to fire upon the object because its size overwhelmed them. The object was reported to have been the size of three football fields and its bright white lights glared out the entire sky. One female officer was on a nearby plant building and started to draw her weapon, but put it away when she realized that her hand gun would have no effect on an object of that size. At least 12 guards were called to the scene all armed a ready for the final order to open fire upon the UFO. The commander of security then called Camp Smith, an New York National Guard base located north of Peekskill, New York and requested air support to shoot down the intruder. The commander also requested identification of the object, but no agency that was contacted could identify the intruder. I am not sure if the communication o Camp Smith was done by phone or radio. I was informed that most security communications are done by computer to computer, but since the computer was down radio or phone must have been used. As the helicopter left the Camp, the object moved away from the plant. It was as if who ever was in the giant UFO knew and moved away to avoid a confrontation. I am not sure if the helicopter pilots ever saw the UFO. I do have some unconfirmed sightings from Peekskill residents who saw a helicopter following the UFO. he helicopter was observed in bincoulars by one Peekskill resident Vietnam Veteran who said it was a "gunship" similar to the "choppers" used in the war. The UFO then picked up speed and was soon lost in the North West section of the sky, somewhere over the Hudson River. At the time of the sighting, hundreds of Peekskill residents were calling police reporting the UFO. I talked with a number of residents who saw the object move away from the Nuclear power plant. Their description of the object are identical to what the guards Indian Point saw over the reactor. The next day the commander called in all the guards involved and informed them that "Nothing Happened". They were all ordered to forget the entire incident. All radio communications that night were taped, but according to the plant supervisor the tapes no longer exist. I was informed that they only keep the tapes for a short time, then they erase them and use them over. I talked with several people who work in security, one of them for another nuclear plant. I was told by this security expert that the tapes are kept if an incident took place. I was also told that all the security cameras at a Nuclear plant use video tape, and that the tape is turned on if an incident takes place. Yet, the NYPA denies using any video during the UFO incident. Fred and I met with Jeff for about one hour and thirty minutes that night. As we walked out to our cars Jeff told us that he would keep in touch and give us any new information that might come up. We did not know at the time that security at the plant was already covering up the incident and we would never hear from Jeff again. Fred and I began to drive back to Greenwich Connecticut taking route 9 through Ossining, New York. The time was about one in the morning and we were both pretty tired, but still excited about the story we were just told. After all, these were well trained ex-New York State Cops. There was no doubt that they saw something that was not of coventional origin. But what was it? How could something the size of three football fields fly over three counties, hover over a nuclear reactor for fifteen minutes, then disappear without a trace? How could the entire event take place without sometype of military involvement? These were questions that we could not answer,but it seemed clear that the military had no power over the mysterious visitor that night. We continued to drive, the night was clear and chilly. I looked toward the south and saw a number of flashing lights about forty five degrees from us. The lights flashed in sequence and were very bright. I said to Fred" What's that", Fred replied "THAT'S IT!. Fred Stopped the car and I turned around to look for the binoculars in the back seat. I could not find the binoculars so I turned around once again to see the lights. We saw about five lights that were mostly white in color, but seemed to have a slight lime green tinge to them. As we watched the lights, ( which were in the shape of a half circle) turned on their side like a ferris wheel and rolled toward the west. We lost the object behind some trees, so we moved the car to clear the trees. When we did the lights could not be found, they were gone. It was like they never existed, they just vanished! There was no doubt that the lights were connected some some solid object. We heard no noise and although this object was large,, it seemed very thin. Also we never really saw any dark structure connecting the lights. I thought I may have seen a dark mass behind the lights when I first saw them, but I can't say for sure. How strange, this was our first sighting of the Hudson Valley UFO and it took us quite by surprise. We never expected to see anything. In the past the UFO always appeared between eight and ten PM, we only had one or two other cases of sightings later than midnite. Also, was it just a coincidence that the object appeared to us after our interview with Jeff? Although we only saw this object for about thirty seconds it was enough to keep us excited for weeks. I can see why Jeff and his fellow officers were awed by this object. I filed a number of Freedom of Information Act requests (FOIA) with the Nuclear Requlatory Commission. The response from them indicated that they had no record of the event taking place. I also filed an FOIA with Indian Point. I was informed by the manager of the plant that the NYPA is not subject to the Freedom of Information Act. I was also told that no information on the incident would be released because it could possibly jeopardize plant security. On October 29th 1984 Fred and I were once again in the Westchester area doing some follow up research. At 9:00 I called my home to see if there were any messages, indeed there were many. It seems that there were UFO sightings over Westchester and Putnam county that night. Most of the calls came from local residents and local police from Westchester towns. All the reports were similar a giant well lite object the size of a football field sporting multicolored lights. One call came from radio station WVIP in Mt. Kisco New York. The local newsperson video taped the object that night. I then called the station and went over to see it since we were only about twenty minutes from there. Fred and I arrived at the station and wwere greeted by veteranNewsman Gerry Culliton. Mr. Cullition told me that at about 8:15 they started to get calls about a UFO heading toward the direction of the station. He then hooked up a portable VCR camera and went outside and saw a series of bright lights approaching the station from the east. The lights passed at about a thirty degree angle from the station. The lights then turned and went to the northwest. He then began playing the video tape for us, it showed a series of lights that were flashing. The tape was interesting but not as good as the video taken in Brewster, New York on July 24, 1984. As we watched the tape Mr. Culliton asked me if I would do a special news report for the station concerning the recent UFO sightings. I did the story and also mentioned the sightings at Indian Point that took place several months before. The story was aired that night and several times during the following day. The next day (October 30th) I received a call from the Reporter Dispatch, a local Westchester county newspaper. The reporter called me to get more information about the Indian Point sightings. He had already called the Reactor plant and talked with the spokesman a Mr. Carl Patrick. The reporter informed me that Mr. Patrick confirmed the sighting of a UFO by security guards on duty at the Indian Point complex 3. The reporter then did a story which came out the next day. When I picked up the paper I was shocked to see the headline on the front page "DID ALIENS BUZZ INDIAN POINT". I had wished they would have played it down a little since neither I or the guards at Indian Point claimed that the UFO was an alien spaceship. Gerry Culliton from WVIP radio was also doing his own investigation into the sightings over Indian Point. Gerry is an excellent newsperson and will dig and dig until he gets the facts on a story. Gerry gave me a call to tell me what he found out.Although the conversation was about thiry minutes long, I edited out much of the material and included the important facts. Gerry: We released the story and got a good number of calls from newspapers and the people at Indian Point. Phil: My concern is not to get anybody in trouble. Gerry: we didn't release any of the guards names. Indian point admitted to the sightings to me. I called Carl Patrick at Indian Point and I talked to him. He told me yes, there definitely were sightings. He said that the State Police did an investigation and arrested four Cessna pilots. Phil: I heard that story. I called the New York State Police and nobody was arrested. Gerry: I know that's what I told them, I checked on it. I asked him if they made out and incident report and I asked for a copy. He told me " Yes, we did, but the report is not available and all security measures have been taken to protect our own security" I then said," OK can you tell me if they fired upon the thing?" he said, and I quote, "I can not confirm or deny that the guards fired upon it, but they did what was necessary to protect the plant". Phil: I think this story has gone out of being just another UFO story. It seems its a matter of an unkown object violating the security of a nuclear reactor. Gerry: The newspaper seems to be more interested in a story about Indian Points security rather than the UFO sighting. Several hours after the article appeared in the Westchester paper I received a call from the cheif of security from the New York Power Authority in New York City. This person informed me that they were well aware of my second meeeting with Jeff and that I was told information that was vital to Indian Point security. They also knew that I was planning to write a book about the Hudson Valley sightings(now published) and because of security reasons I was going to be forced to not mention anything about the Indian Point sightings. In the following days I got several more calls from the NYPA and this time they wanted me to come to a hearing in New York city. They wanted to know everything I was told about the incident. At the time I was working closely with John G. Fuller ( author of Incident at Exeter and the Interrupted Journey,the story of Barney and Betty Hill) John had written a book about the dangers of nuclear reactors and was very experienced with their security people since they tried to block his book. John told me to release all the facts about the sightings and to ignore their threats. I did both. The Indian point sightings were exposed nation wide for the first time in the TV show "INTO THE UNKOWN" I never heard from the the NYPA after that. As the months went by I began to make some contacts with a number of employees at Indian Point. I was told that since the sighting government people came on a regular basis to the plant. I was also told that sophisticated electronic and optical equipment was placed on the roof of the largest building at the reactor site. The equipment was being operated by government agents and staffed twenty four hours a day. I was still hoping to get something on record, a document, tape recording ect. Something to prove some of the stories I was being told. I later found out that the Nuclear Regulatory Commission came in the day after the sighting and cleaned out the file cabients and took all audio and video tapes. These documents and tapes must have been turned over to another agency, since the NRC and Indian point claim they have no documents of anykind concerning the July 24th 1984 UFO encounter. I continued to gather information from my informers. I found out that reactor number three had a crack in its casing which the plant officials were trying to keep hidden from the public. According to my information the crack appeared after the July 24th encounter. This crack was later confirmed in 1988 when New York TV news stations carried a story about the reactor casing being cracked and "small" amounts of radioactive steam being released. It seems that my contacts did have accurate information and to this day I am still getting information about the UFO incident and I now have more faith in my informers. I was also told of a power drain which the military and NRC were very concerned about. It seems that somewhere along the line, power was being drained off. The feeling was that the power drain was actually power being stolen, but by who. One of my contacts who works in the high security area overheard a conversation between an Airforce Colonel and a number of plain clothes government agents (agency unkown) and plant managers. Although most of the conversation was in whispers,my informer was able to determine that it did concern the power drain. The Colonel then yelled as if in anger to the other men, and this was heard very clear by my contact: " I don't care if they are from outer space shoot them" Over the past several years I have seen most of the details of the Indian Point UFO encounter confirmed. In 1987 I spoke at the first Omega Communications UFO conference in North Haven, Connecticut. After my talk I was approached by a gentleman who was heavily involved in the creation and supervising of security at nuclear reactor plants in the State of Connecticut. He told me that he read the chapter about Indian Point in NIGHT SIEGE and they he knew all the guards and people involved and that he talked with them. He then said "Phil, everything you said in the book was correct, you were right on target". He later told me that a great deal more took place than what was covered in the book, but he really could not talk about it. I will continue to investigate the Indian Point sightings. Hopefully, someday soon I will have documents to tell the entire story. --- EOF --- Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!think.com!rpi!masscomp!peora!tous!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: INFO: California UFO Sightings Message-ID: <1991Sep28.195659.12600@bilver.uucp> Date: 28 Sep 91 19:56:59 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 1107 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2202 alt.conspiracy:7689 sci.skeptic:15658 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This information is presented for your persusal and is a continuation of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-) As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups exclusively, comments to me should be directed to dona@bilver.uucp in mail. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #7645 - BAMA Date : 22-Sep-91 1:18 From : John Powell To : James Nugent Subject : CA PBB Unknowns, 1/2 California sightings from the Project Blue Book Unknowns: -+--------------------------------------------------------------------------- July 6, 1947; Fairfield-Suisan Air Base, California. Daytime. Witnesses: Army Air Forces Capt. and Mrs. James Burniston. Watched for 1 minute while one object having no wings or tail rolled from side-to-side three times and then flew away very fast to the southeast. July 8, 1947; Muroc Air Base, California. 9:30 a.m. PDT. Witnesses: lst Lt. Joseph McHenry, T/Sgt Ruvolo, S/Sgt Nauman, Miss Janette Scotte. Watched for an unstated length of time while two disc-shaped or spherical objects--silver and apparently metallic--flew a wide circular pattern, and then one of them later flew a tighter circle. July 29, 1947; Hamilton Air Base, California. 2:50 p.m. PDT. Witnesses: Assistant Base Operations Officer Capt. William Rhyerd, ex-AAF B-29 pilot Ward Stewart. Watched for unknown length of time while two round, shiny, white objects with estimated 15-25 foot diameters, flew 3-4 times the apparent speed of a P-80, also in sight. One object flew straight and level; the other weaved from side-to-side like an escort fighter. Sept. 23, 1948; San Pablo, California. 12 noon. Witnesses: Sylvester Bentham and retired U.S. Army Col. Horace Eakins. Two objects: one, a buff or grey rectangle with vertical lines; the other a translucent "amoeba" with a dark spot near the center. The arms of the "amoeba" undulated. Both objects travelled very fast. Dec. 3, 1948; Fairfield-Suisan AFB, California. 8:15 p.m. Witness: USAF Sgt., control tower operator. One round, white light flew for 25 seconds with varying speed, bouncing motion, and finally a rapid erratic climb. April 4, 1949; Merced, California. 10:20 p.m. witness: William Parrott, former Air Force pilot and major. One generally round object with a curved bottom and dull coloring. The object gave off a clicking sound until overhead. Parrott's dog reacted. 35 seconds. May 6, 1949; Livermore, California. 9:35 a.m. Witness: C. G. Green. Two shiny, disc-like objects rotated around each other and banked. Then one shot upwards with a grey trail and rejoined the other. The sighting lasted 5 minutes. Mar. 13, 1951; McClellan AFB, California. 3:20 p.m. Witnesses: USAF lst Lt. B.J. Hastie, Mrs. Rafferty. A cylinder with twin tails, 200' long and 90' wide, turned north and flew at incredible speed. Two minutes. Sept. 6, 1951; Claremont, California. 7:20 p.m. (not really clear). Witnesses: S/Sgt W.T. Smith, M/Sgt L.L. Duel (?). Six orange lights in an irregular formation, flew straight and level into a coastal fog bank after 3-4 minutes. March 24, 1952; 60 miles west of Pt. Concepcion, California. 8:45 a.m. Witnesses: B-29 navigator and radar operator. One target tracked for 20-30 seconds at estimated 3,000 m.p.h. April 15, 1952; Santa Cruz, California. 7:40 p.m. Witness: Mr. Hayes, brother of Master Sergeant. Two faint objects observed flying fast along the horizon for 6-8 seconds, using 20x spotting telescope. May 1, 1952; George AFB, California. 10:50 a.m. Witnesses: three men on the arms range, plus one Lt. Colonel 4 miles away. Five flat-white discs about the diameter of a C-47's wingspan (95') flew fast, made a 90^ turn in a formation of three in front and two behind, and darted around, for 15-30 seconds. May 9, 1952; George AFB, California. 5:20 p.m. Witness: A/lc G.C. Grindeland. One dull white, arrowhead-shaped object flew straight and level for 10 seconds. July 26, 1952; Williams, California. Case missing from official files. July 29, 1952; Merced, California. 3:44 or 4:35 p.m. Witnesses: Herbert Mitchell and one employee. One dark, discus-shaped object, trailed by a silvery light 2 lengths behind, tipped on its side, dove, hesitated and then circled very fast during the 2 minute sighting. Aug. 1, 1952; Lancaster, California. 1:14 a.m. Witnesses: sheriff's deputies and other persons, one named Mallette. Two brilliant red lights hovered and maneuvered for 5 minutes. Aug. 18, 1952; Fairfield, California. 12:50 a.m. Witnesses: three policemen. One object changed color like a diamond, and changed directions during the 30 minute sighting. Aug. 19, 1952; Red Bluff, California. 2:38 p.m. Witness: Ground Observer Corps observer Albert Lathrop. Two objects, shaped like fat bullets, flew straight and level, very fast for 25 seconds. Sept. 14, 1952; Santa Barbara, California. 8:40 p.m. Witness: USAF C-54 transport pilot Tarbutton. One blue-white light travelled straight and level, then went up. Seen for 30 seconds. Sept. 27, 1952; Inyokern, California. 10 p.m. Witnesses: two couples, using a 5x telescope. One large, round object, which went through the color spectrum every 2 seconds, was seen to fly straight and level for 15 minutes. Dec. 28, 1952; Marysville, California. Case missing from official files. --- XRS! 4.50+ * Origin: Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence (Quick 1:19/19.19) Message #7646 - BAMA Date : 22-Sep-91 1:19 From : John Powell To : James Nugent Subject : CA PBB Unknowns, 2/2 California sightings from the Project Blue Book Unknowns: -+--------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jan. 10, 1953; Sonoma, California. 3:45 p.m. or 4 p.m. Witnesses: retired Col. Robert McNab, and Mr. Hunter of the Federal Security Agency. One flat object, like a pinhead, made three 360* right turns in 9 seconds, made abrupt 90* turns to the right and left, stopped, accelerated to original speed and finally flew out of sight vertically after 60-75 seconds. Jan. 28, 1953; Pt. Mugu, California. 1 p.m. Witness: R.W. Love, owner of Love Diving Co., engaged in retrieving radio- controlled drones. An 18-20' white, flat disc flew straight and level, overhead, for 6 minutes. Jan. 28, 1953; Corona, California. 6:05 p.m. Witness: USAF T/Sgt. George Beyer. Five 25' green spheres flew in V-formation, then changed to trail formation at which time the end objects turned red. Sighting lasted 12 minutes. Feb. 20, 1953; Pittsburg-Stockton, California. #1 time unknown; #2, 10:30 p.m. Witnesses: USAF B-25 bomber pilots. #1 was a bright yellow light seen for 8 minutes. #2 was a bright light which flew on a collision course, dimmed and climbed away fast. Aug. 20, 1953; near Castle AFB, California. 9:05 p.m. Witnesses: crew of TB-29 bomber/trainer plane. One greyish oval object made four passes at the airplane (three times at 10-20 miles distance), then dived vertically as if two objects. Dec. 24, 1953; El Cajon, California. 8:04 a.m. Witnesses: U.S. Navy Lts. J.B. Howard and L.D. Linhard, flying F9F-2 jet fighters. Ten silver, oval objects flew at more than 400 kts. (450 m.p.h.), straight and level, for 5 minutes. Dec. 28, 1953; Marysville, California. 11:55 a.m. Witness: Yuba County Airport Manager Dick Brandt. One saucer, with a brilliant blue light, reflecting on a nearby building, hovered briefly during the 1.5 minute observation. May 10, 1954; Elsinore, California. 12:40 p.m. Witness: U.S. Marine Corps Squadron Leader D.R. Higgin, flying an F3D-2 jet fighter. One dark gunmetal delta-shaped object, 22' long and 10' wide, with a fin on the top, descended at a 25-30' angle under the lead airplane of a formation, and over the airplane of Higgin. Sighting lasted a few seconds. July 30, 1954; Los Angeles, California. 10:15 a.m. Witness: Hughes Aircraft test pilots Englert and Peterson, flying a B-25 bomber. One metallic, pencil-shaped object flew slowly or hovered for an unstated length of time. Sept. 21, 1954; Barstow, California. 1 a.m. Witnesses: two local policemen, four U.S. Marine Corps police, one highway patrolman. One red-orange ball giving off sparks, and a smaller light, made a zigzag descent and then hovered. Total of 20 minutes. Feb. 2, 1955; Miramar Naval Air Station, California. 11:50 a.m. Witness: USN Cmdr. J.L. Ingersoll. One highly polished sphere, with reddish-brown coloring, fell, then instantly accelerated to 1,000-1,500 m.p.h. June 6, 1956; Banning, California. 5:30 a.m. Witness: Mr. Bierman. One thin disc with a small dome, shimmering silver, hovered about 100 yards away for 8-10 seconds, then zoomed up. March 14, 1958; Healdsburg, California. 8:45 a.m. Witnesses: Mr. and Mrs. W.F. Cummings and one other. A 3' round, black object touched the ground and then took off. Watched for 2 minutes. Sept. 10, 1960; Ridgecrest, California. 9:50 p.m. Witnesses: Mr. and Mrs. M.G. Evans. Two light gray glowing objects, saucer or boomerang-shaped, which swished when accelerating. Seen 1-2 seconds each. Nov. 27, 1960; Chula Vista, California. 7:30 p.m. Witnesses: Mr. and Mrs. L.M. Hart. One orange-red point of light made huge circles and stopped during the 20-30 minute sighting. Sept. 14, 1963; Susanville, California. 3:15 p.m. Witness: E.A. Grant, veteran of 37 years training forest fire lookouts for the U.S. Forest Service. One round object intercepted a long object and either attached itself to the latter or disappeared. Sighting lasted l0 minutes. Aug. 15, 1964; Yosemite National Park, California. 8:15 a.m. Witnesses: E.J. Haug, of the San Francisco Orchestra and the San Francisco Conservatory of Music; and C.R. Bubb, a high school mathematics teacher. Three bright silver, round objects, in a stack formation, flew very fast, changing positions within the formation. The sound of rushing air was heard during the 3-4 second sighting. April 30, 1966; Sacramento, California. 3:15 a.m. Witness: Anita Miller. One light moved around the sky for 2.5 hours. No further detail in files. --- XRS! 4.50+ * Origin: Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence (Quick 1:19/19.19) Message #7647 - BAMA Date : 22-Sep-91 1:20 From : John Powell To : James Nugent Subject : CA Sightings/Info, 1/8 Report #: 2 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 10-20-1985 Subject: SANTA MONICA, CALIF CASE TYPE: CE I - NOCTURNAL LIGHT DATE: 14 OCTOBER 1985 TIME: 2048 HOURS CFN#: 0128 SOURCE: NAT'L UFO REPORTING CENTER ---------------------------------------- SIX WITNESSES REPORTED OBSERVING A LARGE OBJECT IN THE WESTERN SKY. THE WITNESSES SAID THAT THE OBJECT APPEARED TO HAVE SOME TYPE OF FLUORESCENT LIGHTING ON IT. THE DISTANCE OF THE OBJECT IS UNKNOWN THE DURATION IS ALSO UNKNOWN. ---------------------------------------- Report #: 3 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 10-21-1985 Subject: KERMAN, CALIF CASE TYPE: CE I - DAYLIGHT SIGHTING DATE: 15 OCTOBER 1985 TIME: 1213 HOURS CFN#: 0129 SOURCE: NAT'L UFO REPORTING CENTER -------------------------------------------- ONE WITNESS REPORTED SIGHTING A VERY LARGE OBJECT AT A HIGH ALTITUDE. THE WITNESS SAID THAT THE OBJECT WAS MOVING AT A HIGH RATE OF SPEED. THE WITNESS SAID THAT THE OBJECT LOOKED LIKE A WHITE BALL. HE ALSO SAID THAT THE OBJECT DID NOT LEAVE A VAPOR TRAIL. THE WITNESS DID NOT DETECT ANY SOUND COMING FROM THE OBJECT. THE DURATION OF THE SIGHTING WAS 15 TO 20 SECONDS. ------------------------------------------ Report #: 9 From: SYSOP Date Sent: 10-22-1985 Subject: LOS ANGELES, CALIF CASE TYPE: CE I - DAYLIGHT SIGHTING DATE: 18 OCTOBER 1985 TIME: 1515 HOURS CFN#: 0135 SOURCE: NAT'L UFO REPORTING CENTER --------------------------------------- FIVE WITNESSES REPORTED OBSERVING THREE WHITE OBJECTS. THESE OBJECTS WERE GIVING OFF ALOT OF SURFACE REFLECTION THE WIT- NESSES SAID. THE OBJECTS APPEARED TO BE MOVING AT A VERY SLOW SPEED. THE OBJECTS WERE MOVING IN A EAST TO NORTH NORTHWEST COURSE. THE WITNESSES SAID THAT THE ALTITUDE OF THE OBJECTS WERE APPROXIMATELY 500 FEET GIVE OR TAKE A LITTLE. THE OBJECTS WERE ABOUT THREE FEET IN DIAMETER. ONE WITNESS STATED HE WORK IN THIS AREA FOR A LONG TIME AND WAS FAMILAR WITH THE AIR TRAFFIC. THE WITNESSES SAID THAT WHILE THE SIGHTING WAS GOING ON THERE WASN'T ANY AIR TRAFFIC AT ALL OVER THE LOS ANGELES, INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT. THE WITNESSES ALSO SAID THAT WHILE THE SIGHTING WAS GOING ON THEY SAW THE GOODYEAR BLIMP COMING THERE WAY TOWARD THE AIRPORT BUT THEN THE BLIMP TURNED AND STARTED TO LEAVE THE AREA AND DID SO. THE WITNESSES ALSO SAID THAT THERE WERE PROBABLY OTHERS WATCHING BECAUSE THIS IS IN A INDUSTRIAL AREA. THE DURATION OF THE SIGHTING WAS 20 MINUTES. IF ANY PERSON HAVING ADDITIONAL INFORMATION ABOUT THIS CASE PLEASE LEAVE US A NOTE ON THE E-MAIL SYSTEM. THANK YOU -------------------------------------- Report #: 11 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 10-23-1985 Subject: SANTA MONICA, CA CASE TYPE: CE I - NL DATE: 13 OCTOBER 1985 TIME: 2130 HOURS CFN#: 0137 SOURCE NAT'L UFO REPORTING CENTER --------------------------------------- ONE WITNESS REPORTED OBSERVING A BIG PALE GREEN BALL OF LIGHT AT A ANGULAR DESCENT. THE WITNESS SAID THAT THE GREEN BALL OF LIGHT WAS MOVING TO THE NORTH-WEST FOR ABOUT OR APPROXIMATELY THREE SECONDS. THE WITNESS SAID THAT THE GREEN BALL OF LIGHT WAS AT A LOW ALITIUDE. THE DURATION OF THE SIGHTING WAS THREE SECONDS. -------------------------------------- Report #: 13 From: SYSOP Date Sent: 11-14-1985 Subject: NEWPORT BEACH, CA CASE TYPE: CE I DATE: 14 OCTOBER 1985 TIME: 0100 HOURS CFN#: 0139 SOURCE: NAT'L UFO REPORTING CENTER ---------------------------------------- BRONZE COLOR OBJECT WITH PAINTED NOSE WENT INTO A HIGH SPEED VERTICAL DIVE THEN LEVELED OFF. WITNESSES SAID OBJECT WAS TRIANGULAR SHAPED. DESCRIBED BY TWO WITNESSES AS BEING HUGE. --------------------------------------- Report #: 16 From: SYSOP Date Sent: 11-14-1985 Subject: ATASCADERO, CA CASE TYPE: CE II DATE: 21 OCTOBER 1985 TIME: 2210 HOURS CFN#: 0142 SOURCE: NAT'L REPORTING CENTER ------------------------------------ ONE WITNESS OBSERVED A RECTANGULAR SHAPED OBJECT WITH COLORED LIGHTS AT WHAT WAS DESCRIBED TO BE A LOW ALTITUDE. DURATION OF SIGHTING WAS TWO MINUTES. ------------------------------------ --- XRS! 4.50+ * Origin: Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence (Quick 1:19/19.19) Message #7648 - BAMA Date : 22-Sep-91 1:22 From : John Powell To : James Nugent Subject : CA Sightings/Info, 2/8 Report #: 18 From: SYSOP Date Sent: 11-14-1985 Subject: SAN RAFAEL, CA CASE TYPE: CE I - DS DATE: 25 OCTOBER 1985 TIME: 0830 HOURS CFN#: 0144 SOURCE: NAT'L REPORTING CENTER ------------------------------------ A WITNESS REPORTED SEEING A WIDE-WINGED OBJECT WHICH WAS CURVED IN FRONT AND HAD COLORED LIGHTS. OBJECT WAS AT FIRST STATIONARY, AND THEN MOVED ABOUT BEFORE ASCENDING AT A HIGH SPEED AND DISAPPEARING WITHIN ABOUT 2 SECONDS. THE OBSERVER DESCRIBED THE OBJECT AS LARGE. DURATION OF SIGHTING WAS APPROXIMATELY TWENTY SECONDS. ------------------------------------ Report #: 24 From: SYSOP Date Sent: 11-14-1985 Subject: SAN MARCOS, CA CASE TYPE: CE I DATE: 30 OCTOBER 1985 TIME: 1700 HOURS CFN#: 0150 SOURCE: NAT'L REPORTING CENTER ------------------------------------ ONE WITNESS REPORTED SEEING A WHITE OBJECT MOVING ACROSS THE SKY AT AN ANGULAR ASCENT. THE OBSERVER SAID THE OBJECT WAS FOLLOWED BY A FLASH IN THE SKY. ------------------------------------ Report #: 37 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 01-09-1986 Subject: ROSEVILLE, CA. CASE TYPE: CE I - NL DATE: 3 JANUARY 1986 TIME: 20:20 HOURS CFN#: 0163 SOURCE: NAT'L UFO REPORTING CENTER ----------------------------------------- THREE WITNESSES OBSERVED CIRCULAR OBJECT APROXIMATENLY 300 FEET IN DIAMETER DIRECTLY OVER THEM THE OBJECT THEN MADE A 90 DEGREE TURN WENT INTO A FAST SPEED AND DISAPEARED OUT OF SIGHT. WITNESSES SAID WHILE OBSERVING THE OBJECT IT MADE A RUMBLING SOUND AND SHOOK A HOUSE AND A BARN DURATION OF THE SIGHTING WAS APROXIMATELY 20 SECONDS. ---------------------------------------- Report #: 39 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 01-31-1986 Subject: EDWARDS A.F.B., CA CASE TYPE: CE I - EM DATE: 19 JANUARY 1986 TIME: 07:00 HOURS CFN#: 0165 SOURCE: NAT`L UFO REPORTING CENTER ----------------------------------------- WHILE DRIVING SOUTH ON HIGHWAY U.S. 395 NEAR EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE TWO WITNESSES REPORTED OBSERVING A STATIONARY LONG RECTANGULAR SHAPED OBJECT. THE WITNESSES SIAD THAT THE OBJECT WAS A BRIGHT SILVER IN ITS COLOR. THE WITNESSES ALSO SIAD WHEN THEY WERE NEAR THE OBJECT THERE RADIO HAD A LOT OF STATIC ON IT. i.e. E-M,. THE WITNESSES SIAD WHEN THEY STOP THE CAR THE OBJECT HAD DISAPPEARED. TOTAL DURATION OF SIGHTING: TEN MINUTES. ---------------------------------------- Report #: 62 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 04-09-1986 Subject: ENCINO, CA CASE TYPE: CE II DATE: 2 APRIL 1986 TIME: 08:30 HOURS CFN#: 0187 DURATION: 30:MINUTES SOURCE: NATIONAL UFO REPORTING CENTER -------------------------------------------- One witness reported observing a small silvery object moving out side her house. The witness said: The object was about four incher in diamter. She said: The object was moving around and going over her dogs, she said her dogs hair stood on end. She said: they seemed to be upset ! The witness said: She watch this for about 7 minutes but then she looked up and notice a larger silvery object approximately 8 to 10 inches in diamter. She said: This larger object then started to suppurate into four smaller objects. The witness said: The closest point to the object from her was approximately 12 feet away. This witnesses age is 76 years old. --------------------------------------- Report #: 64 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 04-10-1986 Subject: SAN FRANCISCO, CA CASE TYPE: CE I DATE: 6 APRIL 1986 TIME: 20:55 HOURS CFN#: 0189 DURATION: 10:MINUTES SOURCE: NATIONAL UFO REPORTING CENTER -------------------------------------------- Six witnesses reported observing a large circular object in the eastern sky. The witnesses said: while they were observing the large object it started to suppurate into two disk shaped objects. They said: The two disk shaped objects were stationary for a while till a third disk shaped object came in to wiew. The witnesses said: The three objects then went in a (V) foramtion and disappeared to the north. --------------------------------------- --- XRS! 4.50+ * Origin: Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence (Quick 1:19/19.19) Message #7649 - BAMA Date : 22-Sep-91 1:22 From : John Powell To : James Nugent Subject : CA Sightings/Info, 3/8 Report #: 68 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 04-17-1986 Subject: CORONADO, CA CASE TYPE: CE I DATE: DECEMBER TIME: NIGHT CFN#: 0193 DURATION: UNKNOWN SOURCE: JOURNAL CORONADO JAN 9,1986 ---------------------------------------- Three Coronados spotted an Unidentified flying object land in front of them. They were coming out of the bingo hall at Sacred Heart Church. Mona O' Keefe, Rosemany Thelen and a North Island worker A Mr. Herb, described the object as a clear plastic bubble about three feet in diameter. As the man approached the object, it ascended and flew over Orange Ave to Olive Ave and out over the ocean in the fight path for North Island, according to the two women. Police said: they had no reports. The women said: they asked around town, but nobody else said they had spotted the mysterious object. --------------------------------------- Report #: 71 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 04-22-1986 Subject: PETALUMA, CA CASE TYPE: CE I - NL DATE: 19 APRIL 1986 TIME: 20:40 HOURS CFN#: 0196 DURATION: 5 SECONDS SOURCE: NATIONAL UFO REPORTING CENTER ------------------------------------------- One witness reported observing 15 lights flying in a "V" formation at a fast rate of speed. He said the lights were going from South East to North West. He said they move from directly over hard to the horizon in 5 seconds. --------------------------------------- Report #: 74 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 04-22-1986 Subject: WALNUT CREEK, CA CASE TYPE: CE I DATE: 21 APRIL 1986 TIME: 22:56 HOURS CFN#: 0199 DURATION: 10 SECONDS SOURCE: NATIONAL UFO REPORTING CENTER ------------------------------------------- Witnesses reported observing a very large object movung in the night sky at a fast rate of speed. They said that the object was on a North to South course. Also that the object then disappeared in the horizon. Another witness reported observing this same object from an area called Oakland, California at the same time as the sighting in Walnut Creek, Califoria. The duration in both cases was approximately 10 seconds. --------------------------------------- Report #: 78 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 04-27-1986 Subject: EL CENTRO, CA CASE TYPE: CE I - DD DATE: 15 NOVEMBER 1985 TIME: 19:15 HOURS CFN#: 0203 DURATION: 15:SECONDS SOURCE: NATIONAL UFO REPORTING CENTER ------------------------------------------- Four witnesses reported observing three large disk shaped objects moving at a fast rate of speed. They said the objects were going on a north to south course. The witnesses said that the colors of the disks were that of a penny or copper. ---------------------------------------- Report #: 79 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 04-27-1986 Subject: NIPOMO, CA CASE TYPE: CE I - NL DATE: 26 APRIL 1986 TIME: 21:27 HOURS CFN#: 0204 DURATION: 15:MINUTES SOURCE: NATIONAL UFO REPORTING CENTER ------------------------------------------- Two witnesses reported observing four bright lights in the night skys. They said that the lights or objects were at a high altitude and maneuvering at high rates of speed. The witnesses said that the lights were going in circles and making 90 degree turns. They also said the light were going in to high speed vertical climbs and high speed vertical dives. The lights or object would then make very fast stops. The witnesses said they were watching this going on directly over head in the North East sky. ---------------------------------------- Report #: 96 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 05-23-1986 Subject: PETALUMA, CA CASE TYPE: LRS DATE: 22 MAY 1986 TIME: 0430 CFN#: 0220 DURATION: UNKNOWN SOURCE: (UPI) SEATTLE TIMES ----------------------------------------- PETALUMA, Calif. More then a dozen people reported seeing an unidentified flying object hovering and darting over this suburban city north of San Francisco early yesterday morning. I looked up and saw seveal orange lights hovering in the sky, said Sue Heart, who was delivering newspapers at 4:30 a.m. when the UFO was sighted. A California Highway patrolman described the fast flying object as a large, orange X with white lights on the front. All witnesses agreed it was not an airplane, and air-traffic and military spokesmen in the area were unable to explain the object. The sighting came three days after Brazilian air-force jets reportedly chased more then a dozen fast-moving objects marked by intense green, red and white lights. ---------------------------------------- --- XRS! 4.50+ * Origin: Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence (Quick 1:19/19.19) Message #7650 - BAMA Date : 22-Sep-91 1:22 From : John Powell To : James Nugent Subject : CA Sightings/Info, 4/8 Report #: 98 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 05-25-1986 Subject: ANAHEIM, CA CASE TYPE: LRS DATE: 23 MAY 1986 TIME: 2206 HOURS CFN#: 0222 DURATION: 3:MINUTES WITNESSES: TWO SOURCE: NAT'L UFO REPORTING CENTER ---------------------------------------- Two witnesses reported observing a very large object. They said it was shaped like a "+" sign with many lights on it. The witnesses said the object was lay flat when sighted. Also they heard no sound coming from the object at the time of the sighting. The witnesses said the object was moving in a straight line going from East to West. There is another case like this one which took place on the 22 of may in petaluma California. The witnesses said in that case the object was shaped like an "X" and also had many colored lights on it. This could be the same object? ---------------------------------------- Report #: 100 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 05-28-1986 Subject: VALLEJO, CA CASE TYPE: LRS DATE: 25 MAY 1986 TIME: 0145 HOURS CFN#: 0224 DURATION: UNKNOWN WITNESSES: TWO SOURCE: NAT'L UFO REPORTING CENTER ----------------------------------------- Two witnesses reported observing an object that resebled a small full moon, but the witnesses said, that it had a blue ring around it. The witnesses said the blue ring was on the under side of the object and it would increase in brightness when the object would move. The duration of this sighting is not known. ---------------------------------------- Report #: 104 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 06-02-1986 Subject: LOS ANGELES, CA CASE TYPE: LRS DATE: 31 MAY 1986 TIME: 1930 HOURS DURATION: 3:MINUTES WITNESSES: ONE ------------------------------------------- One witness reported observing some objects that looked to him like the tail of a kite. The witness was looking out a window at about or approximately 7:30 P.M. he described the objects at first as looking like the tail of a kite, twisting in the wind. He said it seemed to him that the objects were gyrating about one another like two pieces of paper carried aloft. About fifteen minutes later he saw three unmarked black helicopters fly overhead, but not in the dirrection in which he had seen the objects. This witness is a Sunday School teacher. ----------------------------------------- Report #: 106 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 06-05-1986 Subject: GRIZZLY FLATS, CA CASE TYPE: NL DATE: 1 JUNE 1986 TIME: 0400 HOURS CFN#: 0230 DURATION: 5:SECONDS WITNESSES: ONE SOURCE: NAT'L UFO REPORTING CENTER -+-------------------------------------- A witness reported waking up at 4:00 am hearing her dog barking vigorously. Just as she went to her window to see what was happening the whole area around her house and the woods lit up just as if it were daytime. She could see shadows being cast of whatever it was but not the object itself as it was directly overhead. She did not go out to investigate. The lighting effect lasted for about five seconds. There was no sound. ----------------------------------------- Report #: 107 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 09-23-1986 Subject: GRASS VALLEY, CA CASE TYPE: LRS DATE: 20 JUNE 1986 TIME: 0100 HOURS DURATION: 15:MINUTES WITNESSES: SIX SOURCE: NATIONAL UFO REPORTING CENTER -+----------------------------------------- Six witnesses observed a large triangular shaped object with colored lights. When first observed the object was stationary and then it started to move directly toward to witnesses until it was directly overhead at an altitude estimated to be over 1200 feet and they could all distinctly hear a low humming sound for about 15 minutes. The object was estimated to be 40 feet across. After about 15 minutes the object moved out of sight over the foot hills moving north to south course. ----------------------------------------- Report #: 108 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 09-23-1986 Subject: SAN FRANCISCO, CA CASE TYPE: LRS - NL DATE: 20 JUNE 1986 TIME: 0300 HOURS DURATION: 01: AND ONE HALF SECONDS WITNESSES: ONE SOURCE: NATIONAL UFO REPORTING CENTER ------------------------------------------- One witness while standing out on his balconey observed a large bright light moving in a vertical decent towards the ground and it passed behind a hill, out of sight. As he stood and watched the area, he could see that there was a bright light coming from behind the hill. He could see it illuminating the contour of the hill. He described the object as large. He observed it for one and a half minutes. No sound was heard. ----------------------------------------- --- XRS! 4.50+ * Origin: Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence (Quick 1:19/19.19) Message #7651 - BAMA Date : 22-Sep-91 1:23 From : John Powell To : James Nugent Subject : CA Sightings/Info, 5/8 Report #: 177 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 10-16-1986 Subject: SONOMA, CA CASE TYPE: LRS - DS DATE: 06 JULY 1986 TIME: 0515 HOURS CFN#: 0301 DURATION: 15: MINUTES WITNESSES: ONE SOURCE: INDEX-TRIBUNE, SONOMA, CA. -+------------------------------------ Sightings of strange flying objects have become more frequent in these parts since late May when a California Highway Patrol officer spotted a peculiar light in the sky during the wee hours of the morning. But last weekend, not only did Sonoman Joan Burtson observe an unusual flying object - this one toyed with her and followed her car for several blocks before finally giving up and going away. The head nurse at a local convalescent hospital dismesses the notion that the bright object in the dawn sky which taunted her for some 15 minutes was a space ship carting around some alien beings. "I don't believe in them," she emphatically states. "I don't know what it was but I don't believe in UFO's. Burtson will acknowledge that in the last few weeks she has heard numerous rumors of UFO sightings in Sonoma Valley. For instance, an acquaintance on Eighth Street East reported that ever since the CHP officer saw the strange light two months ago "that thing has been hanging around here." However, Burtson's description and that of the CHP patrolman are vastly different leading one to believe there are several odd things hovering around up there. What was seen on the early morning of May 21 was a bright orange "X" shaped object heading at a high rate of speed over the Valley to Petaluma. The only similarity with Saturday's unexplained illuminating object was that both were apparently headed in the same direction over the hill to Petaluma. Burtson remembers it as a "solid mass of white light, it was circular about the size of an apple. "There were no colors and it was not flashing." she recalls. Burtson's curious find took place at 5:15 a.m. as she was on her way home from Napa after dropping her husband Pat off at work. She initially noticed the stationary light in the vicinity of Eighth Street East and Napa Road. Later as she approached Leveroni Road from Fifth Street West the flying object moved along with her and made the same right turn. She subsequently made three U turns and each time the object would seemingly use its remote control to reverse its course also. "I thought to myself this is weird so I made three U turns to test it out," she says. On occasion, the UFO would become obscured by the trees but almost the entire way home, no matter what Burtson would do " it would move right along with me," she laughs. Finally, the flying object, for whatever reason, decided the game of cat and mouse was over and it headed towards the Diamond A area, disappearing over the hill. Report #: 183 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 10-16-1986 Subject: GRASS VALLEY, CA CASE TYPE: LRS DATE: 05 SEPTEMBER 1986 TIME: 0500 HOURS CFN#: 0307 DURATION: UNKNOWN WITNESSES: MANY SOURCE: (PAPER UNKNOWN),CA-CR:MUFON -+---------------------------------------- Grass Valley - A silent but colorful flying object zoomed across the sky over the Sierra foothills just before dawn Friday, according to some local residents who witnessed the brief event. U.S. air defense officials said they had no explanation. "It was a bluish-green light with a large tail," said Ron Talmage, a security officer who was nearing the end of a night shift when he saw the unidentified object. "It had little pieces flaking off of it like it was coming down," he said. "Working nights, I see meteorites, little ones, all the time. This was spectacular and it seemed like it was just a few miles away." The blaze of color, reported by most observers to have occurred just before 5 a.m., was seen over a 40-mile area ranging from Colfax to Penn Valley. --- XRS! 4.50+ * Origin: Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence (Quick 1:19/19.19) Message #7652 - BAMA Date : 22-Sep-91 1:23 From : John Powell To : James Nugent Subject : CA Sightings/Info, 6/8 Report #: 192 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 11-26-1986 Subject: LOS ANGELES, CA CASE TYPE: LRS NL DATE: 24 NOVEMBER 1986 TIME: UNKNOWN CFN#: 0314 DURATION: UNKNOWN WITNESSES: MANY SOURCE: KRLA RADIO STATION -+----------------------------------- Individual on morning of November 25 was driving to hospital and got caught in traffic jam so turned on radio to listen for possible alternative routes. While listening he heard a report about a sighting the night before witnessed by thousands of people. They reported a multi colored object that went from south to north. Many calls were made to the police. An astronomer was also called and he stated that it could have been a meteor. Report #: 197 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 12-01-1986 Subject: CULVER CITY, CA CASE TYPE: LRS - NL DATE: 21 NOVEMBER 1986 TIME: 2340 - 2345 HOURS CFN#: 0319 DURATION: 05-07: MINUTES WITNESSES: ONE SOURCE: CUFON - UFO INFORMATION SERVICE -+----------------------------------------- One witness reported seeing over her street, LaSalle, an object that the nose of it looked like a boomerang with a pyramid bottom. It was a very windy and particularly clear night and when she looked to the north she saw a formation coming towards her and her first impression was that it was a flock of birds and then as it got closer it looked like a formation of stars. They had a luminous glow to them and they didn't look like head lamps or anything like that. As it came closer she noticed there were more lights going across the bottom of it like a stingray - solid at least underneath and she could not see through it. As it came towards her the lights shut off in the center and only the outline was left on. Stayed there for about 5-7 minutes watching. As it came over her it went further up in the sky and it was weird as no light in the belly of it but she could see a formation of it and what it looked like but it kept fading in and out. The lights in the front of the object stayed on, no noise. The object was much larger than any plane she has ever seen from wing to wing. A boomerang has very wide angles from one end to the other as the object did also, and the nose of the object was not sharp. --- XRS! 4.50+ * Origin: Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence (Quick 1:19/19.19) Message #7653 - BAMA Date : 22-Sep-91 1:24 From : John Powell To : James Nugent Subject : CA Sightings/Info, 7/8 Report #: 198 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 12-10-1986 Subject: BAKERSFIELD, CA CASE TYPE: LRS DATE: 12 JULY 1986 TIME: UNKNOWN CFN#: 0320 DURATION: UNKNOWN WITNESSES: THREE SOURCE: MERCURY NEWS, SAN JOSE, CA -+------------------------------------ REDONDO BEACH - Andy Hoyt admits he has no proof - not anymore, at least - that he witnessed the crash of an aircraft that may be the Pentagon's most carefully guarded secret. His sister, Lisa, and her 16-year-old son, Joey, reportedly also saw the plane, but both declined to discuss the alleged incident. Hoyt, an unemployed Redondo Beach carpenter, says he snapped photographs of the plane as it plummeted to the ground in the Sequoia National Forest near Bakersfield. But the photographs were given to the Air Force, Hoyt says, and the Air Force isn't talking. Defense experts, however, say Hoyt's description of what he claims he saw that night fits the most educated guesses of the configuration of the top secret F-19 stealth fighter - a plane the Air Force will not confirm even exists. In a scenario that sounds like a science fiction movie, Hoyt says he and two relatives saw something drop out of the sky and explode into flames on the other side of a hill about a half-mile away. "It seemed like it was something other than an airplane, said Hoyt, 26, who was on a camping trip. "Believe it or not, I thought it was a UFO." Whatever it was, he says, the military has been treating him royally since he called Edwards Air Force Base when he returned home the following Sunday evening and told the Air Force about the photographs. Hoyt says he and his party were driving east on state Highway 178 about 15 miles northeast of Bakersfiled in the early morning hours of July 12 when they pulled over for a brief rest. He was just climbing back into his truck when he saw it. "All I saw were three red lights and a dark image behind them like an upside-down triangle." Hoyt said, adding that each light was at a point of the triangle. He said he pulled a camera from the dashboard of the truck and managed to take two or three pictures before the plane disappeared over the hill. Then, a pair of explosions "lit up the sky like it was daylight out." Contrary to published reports on the day of the accident, Hoyt says, the aircraft did not explode before it crashed. At least one Air Force source has been quoted as saying plane exploded in midair, which could explain why the pilot, who was killed, was not able to eject safetly. "It was definitely not on fire when it came down," Hoyt said. "Why couldn't the guy eject?" After making sure the blaze was reported on an emergency roadside phone, the party continued to its campground north of nearby Lake Isabella. His call to Edwards upon returning home brought a sudden response from the Air Force, Hoyt says. "They took my name and number and within an hour someone had flown down here and talked to me," he said. "They didn't press me, but they wanted to see the film in my camera." Report #: 208 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 01-18-1987 Subject: CALIFORNIA-OREGON CASE TYPE: LRS - NL DATE: 25 NOVEMBER 1986 TIME: 2022 HOURS CFN#: 0330 DURATION: UNKNOWN WITNESSES: MANY SOURCE: ARKANSAS GAZETTE, LITTLE ROCK, AR -+------------------------------------------- ARKANSAS GAZETTE, Little Rock, AR - Nov. 26, 1986 Fireball not man-made, experts say Defense experts Tuesday eliminated "space junk or any man-made object" as an explanation for a mysterious meteoric fireball that streaked across the Pacific Coast. The object, sighted at 8:22 p.m. (CST) Monday, dazzled stargazers from the California-Oregon border to the Los Angeles area. "It looked like a long, green meteor but it lasted way too long, arcing across the sky toward the ocean, then it just blew up," Roy Jackson of Mountain View, Cal., said. "It wasn't space junk or any man-made object re-entering the atmosphere, and we don't track meteors," Del Kindschi of the North American Aerospace Defense Command at Denver said. "We heard about it but there weren't any satellites or man-made space objects entering the atmosphere at that time." (UPI) --- XRS! 4.50+ * Origin: Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence (Quick 1:19/19.19) Message #7654 - BAMA Date : 22-Sep-91 1:24 From : John Powell To : James Nugent Subject : CA Sightings/Info, 8/8 Report #: 210 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 01-18-1987 Subject: SARATOGA, CA. CASE TYPE: LRS - NL DATE: 14 OCTOBER 1986 TIME: 2015 - 2030 HOURS CFN#: 0332 DURATION: UNKNOWN WITNESSES: FIFTEEN SOURCE: MERCURY NEWS, SAN JOSE, CA -+------------------------------------ MERCURY NEWS, San Jose, CA - Oct. 23, 1986 Mystery lights return to Saratoga By Kathy Holub Mercury News Staff Writer A beautiful apparition has been glowing in the night sky over Saratoga, leaving viewers baffled and entranced. About 15 people, all agog, called Santa Clara County dispatchers on Tuesday night to report a mysterious bright red light that hovered in the sky from 8:15 to 8:30 and then disappeared. Dozens of callers described a similar phenomenon on Oct. 16, same time, same place. "It was very exciting," said Maureen Denton of Los Gatos, who watched last week's display during a break in her real estate class at West Valley College. "It was very bright, much larger than the lights you see on airplanes. At one point, something burning or flickering dropped from it. It was just a tiny little flicker that came down. We all went: `Oooh, what was that?'" No one seems to know. That includes Vicki Yauger of Saratoga, who spied the object Tuesday night while lounging with her husband in thier backyard spa. Yauger said the light appeared high in the northwestern sky, first moving toward them, then away. Through her binoculars, the apparition became a cluster of lights. "It was scary. When it started getting larger, it seemed to be coming down," she said. Yauger didn't see the object fade from view because she had just gone into the house. Her husband told her the light turned green and slowly disappeared. Spokesmen at Moffett Field Naval Air Station said nothing flew out of their airfield Tuesday that looked like that. And officials at Vandenberg Air Force Base in Lompoc said they didn't launch a thing Tuesday night. Ditto for Oct. 15. Other watchers of the night sky - air traffic controllers and astronomers at Lick Observatory - said they saw nothing unusual. --- XRS! 4.50+ * Origin: Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence (Quick 1:19/19.19) --- EOF --- Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!think.com!rpi!masscomp!peora!tous!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: INFO: New Jersey UFO Sightings Message-ID: <1991Sep28.195956.12684@bilver.uucp> Date: 28 Sep 91 19:59:56 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 174 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2203 alt.conspiracy:7690 sci.skeptic:15659 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This information is presented for your persusal and is a continuation of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-) As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups exclusively, comments to me should be directed to dona@bilver.uucp in mail. --+------------------------------------------------------------------------+-- MUFONET-BBS Network - Mutual UFO Network ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Investigative Sighting Report ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Log # 890303 - Event mid-June 1959, midday, Whiting, NJ: Duration, unknown (possible time lapse). Lead investigator Walter Webb. The witness, then 8 years old, went hiking into a nearby woods that lie near multiple military installations. He entered a circular clearing, on the perimeter of which tree bark was scraped and hanging. At some point, from overhead a shadow became apparent, and the boy discovered a 60 foot disc 300 feet overhead with a high-pitched humming. The object descended while the witness felt an electrical tingling, then a blank. When he returned home, he could not account for six hours. --+------------------------------------------------------------------------+-- report #: 1 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 10-20-1985 Subject: NORTH BERGEN, NEW JERSEY CASE TYPE: CE I - NOCTURNAL LIGHTS DATE: 5 OCTPBER 1985 TIME: 2015 CFN#: 0127 SOURCE: NAT'L UFO REPORTING CENTER ---------------------------------------- ONE WITNESS REPORTED OBSERVING 4 LARGE LIGHTS MANEUVERING AROUND EACH OTHER IN THE NIGHT SKY. THE DISTANCE FROM THE WITNESS TO THE LIGHTS ARE UNKNOWN. THE DURATION OF THIS SIGHTING IS ALSO UNKNOWN --+------------------------------------------------------------------------+-- Report nj10190.ufo This sighting took place on October 1, 1990, at 2:30 am, near Lake Tamarack. A report was filed with the police department of Hardyston, New Jersey. At present, three witnesses have come forward describing this event. What follows is an account of the event by Mr. and Mrs. L. McR. Mrs. L McR. said she looked out the window on her way to bed at about 2:30 am and saw an object hovering over the mountain near her Lake Tamarack home. "I thought it was a helicopter. It looked like the top light was pulsing. There were lights below it, but they did not move." When the object kept hovering for about five minutes, she called her husband to come and look at it. The two used a telescope and saw the object again. Mr. McR. stated, "It was a streak of green at an angle with a cut out square at the bottom center. It was pulsing." The couple then called a neighbor, who also saw the object. The couple watched the object for about 15-20 minutes through the telescope as it traveled slowly thru the sky at the same speed as the stars around it and then disappeared behind some trees. Mr. McR. explained that " the object appeared stationary to the naked eye, but the telescope showed it was moving slowly. I have never seen anything like that before. It was definitely not an airplane." Walter Zamorski of the National Weather Service, when questioned, stated that the weather on the morning of October 1, was extremely clear, and the sighting might have been a weather satellite. No further information has materialized since the October sighting. --+------------------------------------------------------------------------+-- MUFONET-BBS network - Mutual UFO Network ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Investigative Sighting Report ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Report--------- nj12590.ufo Date----------- December 5, 1990 Location------- Denville, New Jersey Classification- Details-------- This sighting took place on December 5, 1990, at approximately 8:35 pm. The witness was driving home, heading west on East Hanover Avenue. There were other cars on the road, traveling in both directions (there are two lanes in each direction). Approximately at 20 degrees to the right of the witness's path lay a patch of foggy luminosity, about 45 degrees above the horizon. The patch disappeared after a few seconds, to be replaced by a very large orange cloud, illuminated from inside. It was very bright, then dimmed briefly in intensity. The cloud very quickly flared back to the original intensity for a short while longer, flickered once, and went dark. A dark patch in the sky could be seen marking where the cloud had been. The entire sighting lasted for a little over a minute. The sky this night was clear, with stars easily seen. other motorists did not seem to stop or slow down. There were no fires in the area, as the fire trucks were in their garages that night. The area under where the cloud was is residential, with no major power lines or towers in the vicinity. There were no reports of explosions or the like. If anyone has information on this particular formation, or others like it, please send the information to the Mutual UFO network, 103 Oldtowne Road, Seguin, Texas 78155. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ UFO/Sighting/Incident Inactive Runway #5 MAFB, N.J. 09864 Date 18 Jan 78 HOUR 0315hrs. N.J. State Police Wrightstown Barracks, N.J. ----------------------------------------------------- INCIDENT/COMPLAINT REPORT On the above date and time it was reported to this office that there were reports of UFO sighting over the base and an incident in progress on the Ft.Dix installation. Also, MAFB control tower,AIC R_____________reported same. Upon further investigation, it was reported that an unidentified being, had been shot by Dix MP's and same entered MAFB at above location. Further investigation revealed that there was some kind of body found on our installation. Area was cordoned off and ECP set up. USAF clinic personnel advised and dispatched accordingly. Recovery team notified and responding. All necessary personnel have been notified. See further 1569's for more information. Investigation pending. -------------------------------------------------------- C. EVIDENCE One body of unknown origin released to the care of OSI District Commander and Special Recovery Team from Wright- Pat AFB. Col. Landon Brig.Gen. Brown AFOSI ----------------------------------------------------------- -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!think.com!rpi!masscomp!peora!tous!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: INFO: North Carolina UFO Sightings Message-ID: <1991Sep28.200121.12753@bilver.uucp> Date: 28 Sep 91 20:01:21 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 186 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2204 alt.conspiracy:7691 sci.skeptic:15660 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This information is presented for your persusal and is a continuation of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-) As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups exclusively, comments to me should be directed to dona@bilver.uucp in mail. --------------------------------------------------------------------- MUFONET-BBS Network - Mutual UFO network ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ UFO Sighting Report ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Report:--------------- NC021989.UFO Date of Sighting:----- February 19,1989 Location of Sighting:- Near Enfield, North Carolina Classification:------- Details: Farmer Ferdie Barkley watched a cigar-shaped UFO for over 5 minutes during the daytime, near Enfield. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MUFONET-BBS Network - Mutual UFO network ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ UFO Sighting Report ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Report:--------------- NC032889.UFO Date of Sighting:----- March 28, 1989 Location of Sighting:- Mt. Holly, North Carolina Classification:------- Details: On March 28, at dusk, Mt. Holly Junior High student Brett Keeter, 13, saw a white cigar-shaped UFO while riding his bicycle. The UFO moved horizontally at low altitude above Mt. Holly, then the soundless object made a 60 degree turn and left the area. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ MUFONET-BBS Network - Mutual UFO network ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ UFO Sighting Report ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Report:--------------- NC081889.UFO Date of Sighting:----- August 18, 1989 Location of Sighting:- McGuire, North Carolina Classification:------- Details: At 3 pm, Paul L. Moore, a retired security guard at the McGuire Nuclear Plant saw a strange triangular shaped object for about two seconds. The UFO, about the "size of a Stealth bomber", made a 45 degree descent and moved towards McGuire. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- MUFONET-BBS Network - Mutual UFO network ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ UFO Sighting Report ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Report:--------------- NC082189.UFO Date of Sighting:----- August 21, 1989 Location of Sighting:- Jacksonville, North Carolina Classification:------- Details: Dozens of eyewitnesses reported an "oval-shaped UFO with a tail on each side" at 5:30 am. Chased by Sheriff's Deputies and photos taken. Duration: 35-40 minutes. Thought to be a booster rocket sent up in Virginia. Most eyewitnesses didn't accept this, however. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- MUFONET-BBS Network - Mutual UFO network ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ UFO Sighting Report ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Report:--------------- NC102589.UFO Date of Sighting:----- October 25, 1989 Location of Sighting:- Connelly Springs, North Carolina Classification:------- Details: On October 25, student Jason Newton watched four disc-shaped UFOs through binoculars. They flew in formation near Connelly Springs and were moving south with a series of slow maneuvers at 6:55 pm. Newton that one of the UFOs dropped from the formation, descended and hovered for one minute before returning rapidly to the rest of the UFOs. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- MUFONET-BBS Network - Mutual UFO network ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ UFO Sighting Report ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Report:--------------- NC102989.UFO Date of Sighting:----- October 29, 1989 Location of Sighting:- Seven miles west of Lincolnton, NC Classification:------- Details: John D. White, a former Marine pilot, and his wife, Shigeko, had their mountain climbing trip to Linville Gorge delayed when a UFO "about the size of a three-room house" came down from the sky. White and his wife were about seven miles west of Lincolnton, and followed the object for about five minutes. They got out of their car and watched the strange craft thru binoculars and noticed the craft had a cross design of lights on it's bottom. They turned their car around and chased the UFO back to Lincolnton. The oval UFO had red, green and white lights on it. This sighting took place on Highway 27 West at 7:02 am. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MUFONET-BBS Network - Mutual UFO network ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ UFO Sighting Report ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Report:--------------- NC10_89.UFO Date of Sighting:----- October 22-25, 1989 Location of Sighting:- Sauratown Mountian, North Carolina Classification:------- Details: For four nights from October 22 thru the 25, Gary Bledsow and a large number of other observers watched a series of objects shaped like "sugar cubes standing on end" that maneuvered in the northern sky below the Little Dipper. The sightings occurred near Sauratown Mountain in Pilot Mountain. The UFOs were colored with red, green, white and blue lights, and flew across the sky each evening between 8:30 and 9:30 pm. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- MUFONET-BBS Network - Mutual UFO network ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ UFO Sighting Report ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Report:--------------- NC818892.UFO Date of Sighting:----- August 18, 1989 Location of Sighting:- Lincolnton, North Carolina Classification:------- Details: At 5:40 am, three employees of Cochrane Furniture Company reported seeing a brilliant white-lighted object moving from east to north. UFO seen for a least a minute from Hwys. 150 and 27 outside Lincolnton. Names on file (requested confidentially). --- EOF --- Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!think.com!rpi!masscomp!peora!tous!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: INFO: 1989 UFO Sightings - all areas Message-ID: <1991Sep28.200432.12823@bilver.uucp> Date: 28 Sep 91 20:04:32 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 709 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2205 alt.conspiracy:7692 sci.skeptic:15661 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This information is presented for your persusal and is a continuation of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-) As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups exclusively, comments to me should be directed to dona@bilver.uucp in mail. --------------------------------------------------------------------- January 1989 UFO Reports 1/XX N WEST BEND, WI Midnite CE1 Multiple witness Boomerang, hovered near railroad tracks. No sound. 15 min. 1/03 CORONA, CA. 6:15 PM CE1 Multiple witness. Four diamond shaped objects, silver in color, size of small car. Stopped for appox. 5 minutes, 300 feet over witnesses. No sound. 1/04 THREE RIVERS, MI. 8:30 PM NL Single witness Three "Tylenol-caplet" shaped objects flying at high speed. No sound. 1/09 INDIANA CO., PA. 9:00 PM NL Single witness Large craft with red & white lights hovered in sky. No sound. 1/09 KEY LARGO, FL. XXXX NL Multiple witness Luminous cloud of smoke, performed gyrations. Possible Trident missile. 1/10 HAKENSACK, N.J. 8:00 AM CE1 Single witness Object hovered 80 feet in the air. No sound. 1/10 APPLETON, WI. Night CE1 Multiple witness. Three large bright white lights moving in a straight line, observed by pilot and co-pilot of small plane flying at 7000 feet. Lights turned off and on in sequence. 1/12 BELLEVILLE, IL. 10:00 PM CE1 Multiple witness. Circular object, 100 feet overhead, moving across roadway over car. 1/13 SUN PRARIE, WI. 8:25 PM CE1 Multiple witness. Triangular shaped object with six bright lights in front, 1 1/2 football fields wide, 1000 feet altitude. Over roadway 30 to 45 seconds. No sound heard. 1/17 FENNIMORE, WI. 7:00 PM NL Multiple witness. Twelve to fifteen lights. Several reports to Sheriff Dept. No sound. 1/17 GREENS FORK, IN. 6:30 PM NL Single witness. Bright reddish light, thought to be helicopter at first. No sound. 7 Mn 1/17 FORT WAYNE, IN. 1:03 AM CE1 Multiple witness. Triangular shaped object 30 to 40 yards from car, treetop level. Large as a small airliner, making "swishing" sound. At 1:30 AM witness returned to area with second witness, saw two oblong craft in area. 1/19 GREENS FORK, IN. 6:30 PM NL Single witness. Red light. No sound. 7 Minutes. 1/21 CORYDON, IN. 11:00 PM CE2 Five witnesses. Object with lights. Photographed. 3 Minutes. 1/22 GREENS FORK, IN. 8:30 PM CE1 Two witnesses. Poorly lit object passed within 300 feet of witness. No sound. 7 Min. 1/22 TEXARKANA, TX. 4:43 PM CE1 Single witness. Large, silver, cylindrical-shaped craft passed 300 feet below Cessna flying at 6500 feet. 1/23 GAINESVILLE, FL. 5:00 AM CE1 Multiple witness. Disc-shaped object, stationary overhead, 10 feet diameter, 90 feet off of ground. Duration: 5 minutes. No sound. 1/25 BEVERLY, NJ. 9:10 PM CE2 Multiple witness. Triangular shaped object, 100 feet in diameter, altitude 200 feet. Witnesses said house shook and they heard loud rumbling sound. 1/27 ATLANTA, GA. 9:25 AM CE1 Multiple witness. Pilot and co-pilot - both with 30 years flying experience and holding Captain's rank - saw torpedo shaped object, 10 feet long and two feet in diameter pass appoximately 800 feet under their aircraft. 1/29 REDDING, CA. 9:35 PM CE1 Single witness. Six triangular shaped objects moving in formation from south to north. Low altitude, moved from horizon to horizon in six seconds. 1/30 BATTLE MTN., NV. 5:00 PM CE1 Three witnesses. Witnesses saw oval object with red lights. No sound. 15 Minutes. 1/30 MONTAUK POINT, NY. 4:25 AM CE2 Multiple witness. Three man crew of fishing boat saw large object, approximately 150 ft. in diameter, with bright lights, approximately 100 feet over water. Radar went out on boat. Crew turned off lights and engine. Object turned on edge and displayed "diamond" shape, then passed over boat at about 300 yards. Duration: 25 minutes. No sound. 1/31 VERSAILLES, IL. 6:40 PM NL Two witnesses. Seven or eight blinking lights at low level. So sound. 7 Minutes. 1/31 RUSHVILLE, IL. 6:45 PM NL Two witnesses. Orange ball observed on Rt. 67. Shot off several fireballs. 10 Min. 1/31 LEAVENWORTH, WA. 9:15 PM NL Single witness. Bright light hovered then moved. No sound. 7 Minutes. 1/31 VALIANT, OK. 9:30 PM NL Multiple witness. Two diamond shaped objects trailed by 4-5 other bright objects. 1 HR. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- February 1989 UFO Reports 2/XX BIGLER, PA. 11:00 PM NL Single witness Large white light observed by worked in early Feb. No sound 2/XX THREE RIVERS, MI. 9:15 PM NL Single witness Three "Tylenol-caplet" shaped objects. Same as 1/4/89. No sound. 2/02 OLYMPIA FIELDS, IL. 9:30 AM CE1 Two witnesses Cigar-shaped object larger than a 747 decending. No sound. 1 min. 2/03 RAVENNA, MI. 2:45 AM CE2 Multiple witness. Big bright fireball type object approached to 50 yards of car at tree- top level. Fireball went out leaving dark mass with red, green, & white lights. When car moved, object moved and vice versa. Played for 15 to 20 minutes, then moved away at high speed. No sound. 2/04 LANESVILLE, IN. 3:00 AM CE1 Two witnesses Object w/lights floating at 300 ft. No sound. 2/07 NEW HAVEN, CT. 10:00 PM CE1 Single witness. Small, spherical-shaped object, with red and blue pulsating lights, stationary over neighbors backyard. 60 feet from witness, rooftop level. Duration: 15 seconds. 2/08 GULF BREEZE, FL. 3:40 AM CE2 Single witness Dog awakened by small object over parking lot. No sound. 12 min. 2/09 DU QUOIN, IL. 6:30 PM CE1 Multiple witness. Object with red lights observed over field about 200 feet from house. Duration: 4 minutes. No sound. 2/10 DEKALB CO., AL. 8:30 PM NL Multiple witness Banana shaped object observed by many including law. No sound. 1 HR. 2/11 SAN ANTONIO, TX. 11:15 PM CE2 Single witness Disc shaped object emitted beam which extinguished nearby street light. Humming sound. Few minutes. 2/14 TEHACHAPI, CA. 7:55 PM CE1 Multiple witness. Ten to twelve large circular objects with red, white and blue lights on top moving over nearby mountains. Duration: 45 minutes. 2/15 GEORGIANA, AL. Midnite NL Multiple witness Several police and citizen reports. No sound. 1 HR. 2/17 FYFE, AL. Midnite NL Three witnesses Lights seen by police chief and other law officers. No other info. 2/20 RUSSELL, KS. 6:20 PM CE1 Single witness "Mothership" landed two miles from city limits. No sound. 2/21 PHILADELPHIA, PA. 2:00 AM CE1 Single witness Craft reported about 50 ft. above home. No sound. 2/21 RUSSELL, KS. 9:40 PM NL Two witnesses Description sounds like stars. 2/21 WILSON, PA. 10:00 PM NL Two witnesses Object w/ 6-8 lites on side, sounding like expanding aluminum. 3 min. 2/21 POWAY, CA. 9:50 PM NL Single witness While watching aircraft activity witness saw a "small bright object" enter atmosphere in a vertical path at a high rate of speed. Increased in size to a "huge, brilliant, blue-green swath". When 1000 feet from ground object did 90 degree turn and moved out of sight. 20 seconds. 2/22 RUSSELL, KS. 9:00 PM NL Five witnesses 14 UFOs seen by 5 people (description sounds like stars). No sound. 2/23 NEW PORT, NH. Night CE1 Two witnesses "Very large, bright white light approached car. Stopped, turned off engine, got out. Light form passed overhead at about 300 ft. Witnesses could clearly hear a high pitched humming saound. 1 minute. 2/24 FYFFE, AL. 7:30 PM NL Multiple witness Bright round object w/ white & green lites. 40 calls to police. 2/24 RUSSELL, KS. XXXX NL Multiple witness Man & family saw cluster of lights come out of a gulley. No sound. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- March 1989 UFO Reports 3/01 UNION CITY, OH. 8:03 PM CE1 Two witnesses While driving home, two witnesses saw triangular shaped object stationary in the sky, about halfway between their car and their hse. Car was about quarter mile from house at time. Witnesses stopped car and stared in disbelief. Described as "gigantic" 5 to 6 xs larger than house, 95 ft. long. Object passed overhaed at about 40 ft. Sur- face looked "very metallic". Rumbling sound. 10 minutes. 3/02 BEDFORD, NY. 9:15 PM CE1 Single witness Triangular shaped craft, twice as big as 747 with lights on the bot- tom. Remained in stationary position about 1000 ft. away at low al- titude for about 30 seconds before it moved away. 3/02 SHRUB OAK, NY. 9:35 PM CE2 Single witness Gigantic (as big as two football fields) boomerang-shaped craft with a series of brilliant lights in front stops 50 feet over baseball field by witnesses house. Witness shone flashlite at object and it turned away. No sound except dogs barking. Object circled about 50 ft. overhead and witness felt a strong cold airmass. Trees were blowing. Witness thought that it had only been about 20 minutes but he arrived home at 10:30 PM. 3/17 BISHOP, CA. 5:30 PM CE1 Two witnesses Silver, oblong object, shaped like fuselage, black canopy on top in front with what appeared to be black windows on the side, big as 747, moving fast and reflected sunlight. Increased speed and left. 30 sec. 3/18 CUDAHY, WI. 8:45 PM CE1 Single witness Gray cigar-shaped object almost overhead, surrounded by shimmering lite. Craft about 1000 ft. in air. Went into vertical climb and left in seconds. Duration: 10 seconds. 3/27 KEYSVILLE, GA. 7:15 PM CE1 Two witnesses Round yellowish-white light about 12 ft. in diameter, giving off a "buzzing" sound, moves towards witnesses just above the ground. Light suddenly stopped 50 ft. from their home. Went into a vertical climb and was out of sight in seconds. 3/28 NORTH HOLLYWOOD, CA. 1:29 PM NL Two witnesses Huge, shiny, gold sphere streak across northern sky, west to east. Visible against a blue sky. No trail. 3/29 CAPE CORAL, FL. 6:35 PM NL Single witness Triangular formation of bright white lights emerge from dark clouds. In sight, 25 to 30 seconds. Appeared not to be attached to structure. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- April 1989 UFO Reports 4/04 PENSACOLA, FL. EVEN CE2 Single witness Wit. felt energy, saw ball of lite, car radio effected. No sd. 7 sec. 4/04 PACE, FL. XXXX XX XXXXXXX No details. Under investigation. 4/04 KIMBAL, S.D. 8:15 PM NL Multiple witness Several reports of flaming object which maneuvered. Not aircraft. 4/05 PLAINFILED, IN. 3:00 AM CE2 Two witnesses "Gulf Breeze" type object with lights. No sound. 4/05 CANTONMENT, FL. 11:00 PM NL Two witnesses 15 to 20 discs. No sound. Duration 5 minutes. 4/09 ST. PETERSBURG, FL. 3:05 PM CE1 Two witnesses Seven disc-shaped craft, 5 to 10 ft. in diameter with a reddish glow on the underside, moving in a tight "V" formation. Estimated altitude 500 ft. Approached from SE, passed overhead, then went N. No sound. 4/11 MIDWAY, FL. XXXX XX XXXXX No details. Under investiagtion. 4/12 WEBSTER, MA. 11:00 AM CE2 Single witness (At Lake Chaubunagungamouga) Circular shaped craft, 12 to 15 ft. in diameter, four to five ft. thick, dark brown or black in color. Wit- saw bubbles/boiling on lake. Watched 8 to 12 seconds then saw object ascend from water and shoot straight up into sky and out of sight. No sound. Police called. Witness deemed credible. 4/13 EUGENE, OR. 10:30 PM CE1 Single witness While riding his motorcycle in a rural area the witness spotted two bright objects in the sky. One appeared to be about 2000ft. above the ground, the other just above the roadway. Both were stationary. He drove under the one over the road and stopped the bike. He looked up and saw a triangular-shaped craft about 30 ft. in diameter with brilliant white lights about 25 to 30 ft. above his head. After 15 min- utes the craft moved quickly to the south. 4/17 GULF BREEZE, FL. 10:00 PM NL Nine witnesses Lights observed with binoculars. Probably stars. No sound. 3 hrs. 4/18 GULF BREEZE, FL. 10:00 PM NL Six witnesses Probably stars. 4/19 JACKSON, CA. 8:30 AM CE1 Two witnesses Square-shaped object with a red dome on top with silver disc-shaped object about 3 ft. in diameter attached to each side, (the diameter of each side was equal to the diameter of the disc), with a 20 ft. long silver rod hanging from the bottom, seen by pilot and passenger of small plane. 4/19 PANORA, IA. 10:35 PM CE1 Two witnesses Oval-shaped object, "as big as an airliner" with many colored lights passed within 200 ft. of witnesses. After passing overhead the ob- ject changed course and came to a stop over an open field. It then launched two red lights which descended to the ground. It was under observation for approximately 30 minutes. No sound was heard. 4/20 WESTCHESTER CO., NY. 10:30 PM CE1 Two witnesses Semi-circular solid object about 4 xs larger than a 747 with seven "big, big lights". Watched for about 10 minutes in a stationary position before moving away toward New York City. Three other adults riding in a car on Route 684 near Bedford (same county) witnessed simi- lar object. 4/21 CRESTVIEW, FL. 9:15 PM CE2 Single witness 90 ft. diameter disc with light beam. Humming sound. 2 minutes. 4/22 ST. LOUIS, MO. 9:22 PM CE1 Two witnesses Blk. saucer w/orange turret & stripe, 150ft of wit. "Whish" sd. 30 sec. 4/24 SEVILLE, OH. 2:30 PM CE1 Single witness Octagon-shaped object, gold in color, three to four ft. in diameter on the ground in neighbors field. After watching it for two minutes the object ascended slightly and moved to within 300 ft. of witnesses house. Craft then moved back to original position and moved about. After about 7 minutes object ascended and moved out of sight. No sound. 4/25 WARRINGTON, FL. XXXXX NL Two witnewsses Oval shaped UFO. No sound. 4/27 GULF BREEZE, FL. 9:30 PM NL Single witness Sounds like bright star except for initial high speed. No sound. 30 min. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- May 1989 UFO Sightings 5/XX BURLEIGH CO., ND XXXX TRACE XXXX Bare spots 55'x 68' & 37'x 43' w/bulbous portrusions. 5/01 WARRINGTON, FL. 8:45 pm CE1 Single witness Thirty foot, "bow-tie". No sound. 2 min. 5/02 GULF BREZE, FL. EVEN. NL Multiple witness Two groups of people saw obj. w/ red, white and grn. lites. 5/02 LOUISVILLE, KY. 5:15 AM CE1 Single witness Wit. saw a "big bright light" stationary in the sky under a cloud layer, which began moving in a circular pattern. Lite moved toward witness. As witness started vehicle to leave area, lite stopped 100ft away, then moved right to left and out of site. 5/04 FAIRFIELD CO., CT. 9:30 PM NL Multiple witness Several reports. One object, football field size, humming sound, "V"- shape. 30 min. Airport says hoaxers. 5/08 WALWORTH, NY. 9:45 PM CE1 Two witnesses Wit. was looking out window when she noticed a dark obj. approaching below treetop level. It was "whale shaped" and black in color. Heard sound like that of helicopter, house shook. Sec. wit. said it was "all steel, totally solid", and was about 50 ft long. 5/06 FERNDALE, WA. 10:00PM CE1 Five witnesses Witnesses saw lite form low in sky which appeared to be stationary. As they watched, a second form joined the first then one moved away at a high rate of speed. The second form descended toward the ground then moved toward the witnesses. It passed overhead at rooftop level. It was described as "really huge" and long & wide and moving without sound. It appeared to land in an open field then vanished. Dur. 15 min. 5/10 BAUTISTA CANYON, CA. 7:45 PM CE3 Single witness 30 foot craft, 6-8 beings. EM-effects and TV. Humming sound. 11 min. 5/10 FARMINGTON HILLS, MI. Midnite CE2 Two witnesses Large greenish-silver dasc-shaped object, turned on end and paced car for about two hours. Car radio stopped working and electrical system quit working. 5/17 PITTSBURG, PA. 2:57 AM NL Two witnesses Oval object w/ lites. No sound. 3 min. 5/20 ITHACA, NY. 9:00 PM NL Seventy-five wit. Eight blimp like objects seen by 75 persons, one time over Carl Sagan's home? Humming sound. 1 Hr. 5/20 LONG EDDY, PA. 10:32 PM NL Nine witnesses Large triangular pattern of three lites. Generator sound. 5/21 PINE MILL, PA. 11:00 PM NL Two witnesses Eight lites, 2 wings, curved front. Not a plane or `copter. "Whirr" sd. 5/21 LAKE COMO, PA. EVEN NL Single witness Eleven lites, 3 formed a triangle on front. No sound. 7 min. 5/28 CAPE COD, MA. 1:45 PM DD Multiple witness Grey sphere came within 25' of copter at Otis AFB. No sound. 15 min. 5/28 EAST ISLIP, NY. 9:00 PM DD Single witness Unusual amt. of military copters & F-16 activity. Chasing cigar. 2 Hrs. 5/30 MT. VERNON, IN. 10:39 PM XX XX UFO Filter Ctr. MADAR, recorded magnetic disturbances. One pulse. 5/30 MT. VERNON, IN. 11:14 PM XX XX UFO Filter Ctr. MADAR, recorded magnetic disturbances. Three pulses. 5/31 LONG ISLAND, NY. XXXX TRACE XXXX Possible landing circle at Heckscher Park near a sighting. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- JULY 1989 UFO REPORTS 7/02 BELLINGHAM, MA. MIDNITE CE1 Single witness Basketball sized OBOL's in woods, 5 came within 70'. No sound. 7/03 ANZA VALLEY, CA. 11:30 PM NL Two witnesses Enormous craft, "like sgt's stripes" sped toward lake. No sound. 7/09 ANZA VALLEY, CA. 12:05 AM NL Two witnesses Couple saw strange lights on rocky hill where no vehicles could go. No sound. Seven minutes duration. 7/10 WOODLAND, CA. 2:00 AM NL Two witnesses Object flashing 2 or 3 greem & white lights. No sound. 7/15 SIOUX FALLS, S.D. 8:20 PM DD Four witnesses Dark object with flat ends. hovered. Ten minutes. No sound. 7/15 ITHACA, N.Y. 10:00 PM NL Multiple witness Sounds like NIGHT SIEGE all over again. 80 calls to pol. Noise. 7 min. 7/16 MIDWEST 1:15 AM Booster re-entry NORAD/On SE path & visible for approximately 30 seconds. 7/16 MYRTLE BEACH, S.C. XXXXX NL Two witnesses Two witnesses took video of enormous ball of fire. Listed last month. 7/16 N. CHARLESTON, N.C. 1:35 AM NL Multiple witness Many people fishing in several locations saw object. No sound. 7/16 CHARLESTON, S.C. 1:30 AM NL Multiple witness Dark shapeless object, 300 to 500' long w/sparks at 1500'. No sound. 7/16 NEW HARMONY, IN. 10:15 PM CE1 Single witness Giant round object at tree-top level lit up area. hovered, then floated. No sound. 2 minutes. 7/16 TYBEE ISLE, S.C. 2:00 AM NL Single witness Large fireball reported by policeman. No sound. Seconds. 7/16 HILTON HD ISLE, S.C. 1:30 AM NL Single witness Fireball, witness said not a meteor. No sound. Seconds. 7/16 SAVANNAH, S.C. 1:30 AM NL Multiple witness FAA & Charleston airport received numerous calls. No sound. Seconds. 7/16 GEORGETOWN, S.C. 1:45 AM NL Five witnesses Swimmers saw object, bright in front, tail in back, with white lines on sides. No sound. 7/18 DUTTON, AL. MIDNITE NL Two witnesses Light observed before thunderstorm, warned by psychic. No sound. 7/22 TRENTON, ME. 3:00 AM DD Two witnesses Pilots of Beechcraft saw oblong UFO over Bass Harnor. Power outage on ground. No sound. 2 minutes. 7/25 SMITHTOWN, N.Y. 9:30 PM NL Three witnesses Witnesses heard helicopters, saw one chasing red/orange ball. 90 sec. 7/26 HONEDALE, PA. 1:00 AM CE1 Three witnesses Round object, two sightings within an hour. Sound. 1 hour. 7/XX LANDING, N.J. 3:30 AM CE1 Three witnesses 13 to 15 ft. silver disc. No sound. 10 seconds. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AUGUST 1989 UFO REPORTS 8/10 MILWAUKEE, WI. 3:30 AM NL 2 wit. No sound 25 min. Terrified couple, fishing on waters near Omro saw object fall, hover. 8/13 MANSURA, LA. 10:30 AM CE2 2 wit. No sound XXXX Small disc 30' away just above lawn left swirls. Vertical ascent. 8/18 LINCOLNTON, N.C. 3:00 PM DD 1 wit. No sound XXXX Red/brown triangular object size of Stealth bomber near nuclear plant 300' off ground. 8/21 TRUSSVILLE, AL. 5:00 AM NL + wit. No sound 30 min. Police reports of disc shaped object w/colored lites. 8/21 ASHVILLE, N.C. 5:30 AM NL + wit. No sound 30 min. Oval w/two tails. One end faded, the other grew. 8/21 NASA BLAMES SDI TEST FOR NC SIGHTINGS. (Could this NASA test of the SDI cause sightings in Alabama? F.R.) 8/22 PENSACOLA, FL. Night NL + wit. No sound 2 hrs. Dark shapes and numerous lites approached each other. 8/22 GULF BREEZE, FL. Night CE1 2 wit. No sound XXXX Triangle 50 to 100' on a side, hovered over trees. Maneuvered. 8/23 NAVARRE BEACH, FL. Night NL + wit. No sound XXXX Several saw triangular form over bay. Two huge red lites & yellow ctr. 8/23 GULF BREEZE, FL. Night NL 2 wit. No sound XXXX White or silver delta, 70' on side, passed overhead. 8/26 MINERAL POINT, PA. 5:00 PM NL 9 wit. No sound 45 min. Rotating sphere maneuvered, reversed direction twice. 8/31 BUTLER, PA. 9:00 PM NL + wit. No sound 10 min. Mushroom w/lite hovered in field, 2 lites emerged. AF jets in area within one half hour. 8/31 TRUMBULL, CT. 9:00 PM NL 1 wit. Monotone 15 min. Not an a/c, would hover, then shoot off in another direction. 8/31 TRUMBULL, CT. 11:00 PM NL + wit. No sound 7 min. Series of lights in "V" pattern buzzed city. 8/31 MONROE, CT. 11:00 PM NL 4 wit. No sound 7 min. EMT & three others in ambulance saw object coming head on. 8/31 CAMBRIA CO., PA. 9:30 PM NL + wit. No sound XXXX Lights. No other details available. 8/31 HUNTINGTON, CT. 11:00 PM NL 1 wit. XXXX 7 min. Motorcyclist on Rt. 8 says he saw 5 airplanes flying in formation. 8/31 WESTMORELAND CO., PA. 10:15 PM NL + wit. No sound XXXX Lights. No other details available. 8/31 TRUMBULL, CT. Night CE1 2 wit. Humming XXXX Object 100' in air, just above trees, hovering. 8/31 BRIDGEPORT, CT. 11:00 PM NL + wit. No sound 7 min. Dim lights in diamond pattern buzzed city. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- SEPTEMBER 1989 UFO REPORTS 9/XX XXXX, IOWA XXXX TC XX Not appl. Seen on A CURRENT AFFAIR. Farmer found rings in field. 9/02 MT. VERNON, IN. 8:00 PM NL 3 wit. No sound Seconds Bright cigar-shaped fireball seen by two independent witnesses. 9/03 EBENSBURG, PA. Night CE1 1 wit. No sound 15 sec. Rotating object moved at utility line height near car, no EM. 9/08 GRAND FORKS, ND. 5:40 AM NL 1 wit. No sound 15 sec. Air base A1C saw amber lights criss-cross. Says NOT meteor. 9/09 LONG ISLAND, NY. 2:30 AM NL 2 wit. No sound 7 min. Light observed about 40' over water in Oyster Bay. 9/09 GULF BREEZE, FL. Night NL 3 wit. No sound 2 min. Dull disc-shaped object w/lites joined by 4 identical vehicles. 9/11 KALAMAZOO, MI. 9:15 PM CE2 +3 wit. No sound 15 min. Object with stubby wings near nose. Tubes and pipes seen. Hovered. 9/12 PENSACOLA, FL. 7:55 PM NL 35 wit. No sound 7 min. 35 people, 12 MUFON FIs, observed and photo'd lite that maneuvered. 9/13 BANGOR, PA. 7:45 AM DD 2 wit. No sound 7 min. Two separate sightings of odd, squarish & dark metallic object. 9/14 CANTONMENT, FL. Night CE1 2 wit. Low hum 3 min. Inverted cones hovered low over neighbor's house. Jet activity. 9/16 FLUSHING, NY. 1:00 AM NL 5 wit. No sound 3 hrs. Bright object with tiny lights 75-100' over lake. 9/17 MT. VERNON, IN. 8:43 PM NL 1 wit. No sound 7 min. Video taken of lite that brightened up. 9/20 OLDWICK, NJ. 7:30 AM DD +1 wit. No sound 15 min. Box-like diamond hovered nr Rt. 78, big as full moon. 9/21 MT. VERNON, IN. 8:15 PM NL 3 wit. No sound 10 min. V or wing w/red lites headed toward St. Louis. FAA couldn't ID. 9/24 EVANSVILLE, IN 9:40 PM NL 1 wit. No sound 4 min. Security guard observed distant diffused Orange Ball of Light. 9/25 ST. LOUIS, MO. Night NL + wit. No sound XXXX No soundserved dis, x-lik 9/25 MT. VERNON, IN. 8:00 PM NL 3 wit. No sound SecondsXX Not appl.8 Two separate sightings of odd, squarish & dark metallic object. Seconds ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- OCTOBER 1989 UFO REPORTS 10/XX MEMPHIS, TN. 5:30 PM NL 2 wit. Not appl. XXXX Pilot saw shiny ball 2x's size of two seater a/c, 800 mph+. 10/XX GREENVILLE, MS. Day DD 1 wit. No sound XXXX Crop duster saw maneuvering 90' orange ball. 10/XX CUMMING, IA. Night CE1 1 wit. No sound 10 min. Object over fisherman at 600', size of truck or house. 10/XX WELCH, OK. Night CE3 1 wit. No sound XXXX Family out driving saw two 9' green glowing beings. Exact date unknown. 10/04 PEKIN, IL. XXXX NL MW No sound XXXX Torpedo object at alt. of 25,000', accompanied by spheres. Angel hair. 10/07 MT. VERNON, IN. 8:10 PM NL 1 wit. No sound 10 sec. Strange light switched on-off twice, passed over city. 10/08 MILFORD, MI. 3:30 AM CE1 1 wit. No sound XXXX Security guard saw object on ground which took off vertically. 10/09 PENSACOLA, FL. Night CE1 5 wit. No sound 10 sec. Disc, 200' from car, wobbled and raised above trees. 10/09 GULF BREEZE, FL. Night CE1 3 wit. Humming XXXX Conical glowing object approached 300-500' overhead. 10/10 MEMPHIS, TN. 6:00 PM NL 1 wit. No sound XXXX Pilot flying near Clarksdale & Memphis saw metallic craft. 10/10 COMMERCE, OK. 8:30 PM NL MW No sound Hours Law enforcement, Civil Air Patrol, others report strange lights. 10/10 SOUTHWEST PART MO. Night NL MW No sound XXXX No details. 10/10 NORTHWEST PART ARK. Night NL MW No sound XXXX No details. 10/11 COMMERCE, OK. Night NL MW No sound 4 hrs. Lights observed for four hours. Sounds like stars. 10/11 BAXTER SPRINGS, KS. 9:00 PM NL MW Whizzing 4 hrs. More lights seen for hours, changed colors. 10/11 RIDGEWAY, PA. 8:30 PM NL 1 wit. No sound XXXX Two lights near Big Dipper, 12 minutes later one moved. 10/11 CRESTWOOD, KY. 11:30 PM NL 1 wit. No sound 16 min. Pinkish-amber circular object maneuvered within 400 yds. 10/11 FYLINE, IA. Night NL MW No sound XXXX Several sightings of strange lights near Missouri border. 10/12 GREENVILLE, MS. 4:35 AM NL 1 wit. No sound XXXX Orange Ball of Light observed by pilot driving to work. 10/12 WEST PLAINES, MO. 8:20 PM NL MW No sound 15 min. Orange ball observed by several, sometimes dough-nut shaped. 10/12 BERNADOTTE, IL. 8:20 PM NL 3 wit. No sound 2.5 min. Two balls of light would blink. One went N, other E. 10/12 EAST KINGSTON, N.H. 8:50 PM NL 2 wit. No sound 30 sec. 4-5 round objects in tight formation heading W-E, pulsing wh to grn. 10/12 BRADFORD, PA. 10:OO PM CE2 1 wit. No sound XXXX TV went out, objects with lights passed over house. 10/13 WEST PLAINS, MO. 9:40 PM NL MW No sound XXXX Observed through telescope. Object moved south 10/17 DAVIS COUNTY, IA. Night NL MW No sound XXXX Possibly Venus. 10/18 CHEROKEE COUNTY, KS. 8:00 PM NL MW No sound 8 min. Deep red objects hovered, then disappeared, returned. 10/20 CRESTED BUTTE, CO. Night NL MW No sound XXXX Lady reported obj/redhaze to police who giggled til 911 call came in. 10/20 HUNTSVILLE, AR. 5:10 AM NL 2 wit. No sound 30 min. Witnesses took several 110 pictures of red glow. 10/22 HATFIELD, AR. 8:00 PM NL MW No sound 30 min. Globe, like a firecracker with straws of light. 10/23 PINE BLUFF, AR. Night NL 1 wit. No sound XXXX Sheriff Dept. Sgt. reported obj. low on horizon. Possibly Venus. 10/23 RICHMOND, VA. 7:30 PM NL 3 wit. No sound 30 min. Light, within two city blocks, observed by family in car. 10/23 CHAPEL, AR. 8:00 PM NL MW No sound 90 min. Many people & law enforcement saw lights. Possible CE1. 10/24 MARBLEHEAD, MA. 10:30 PM NL 1 wit. Whistle 5 sec. Blue fireball, explained. 10/26 SAN DIEGO, CA. 6:15 AM NL MW No sound 7 min. Many reported bright light w/glowing conical area beneath. 10/26 NEWPORT, AR. 6:55 PM NL MW Popping 90 min. Disc or cone flying low and slow, seen in seven counties. 10/26 MUSKOGEE, OK. 7:20 PM NL MW No sound XXXX Colored, (mostly green) rapidly moving lights streaked southward again. 10/27 HUNTSVILLE, AR. 4:45 AM NL 2 wit. No sound 25 min. Witnesses took photos of orange obj. w/columns of light. Missing time. 10/27 ARKANSAS 4:50 AM NL MW No sound XXXX Physician, bow hunting, & several others saw weird orng cld on horizon. 10/28 LONGMONT, CO. 11:45 PM NL 1 wit. No sound 2 sec. Flame red fireball, smokey trail vertical descent. Explained. 10/29 EL PASO, TX. 7:00 PM NL 2 wit. No sound 4 sec. Bright white fireball. Explained. 10/30 FT. WALTON BCH, FL. Night NL 2 wit. No sound XXXX Two rows of lights in cross within undefined grey, slick shape. 10/31 GREENVILLE, S.C. Night NL 2 wit. No sound 7 sec. Lights in V-shape or checkmark on video. Humanoid reported in window. 10/31 DANBURY, CT. Night NL MW No sound XXXX Erratic flying light. 5-6 calls. 10/31 BETHEL, CT. Night NL MW No sound XXXX Erratic flying light. As above. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- UFO REPORTS NOVEMBER 1989 11/XX NEWBURG, IN. Night NL MW No sound XXXX Object over power station scared witnesses. Possible CE1. 11/XX CREVE COUER, MO. 9:00 AM DD 1 wit. No sound 30 sec. Three rectangles observed in clouds. 11/01 OREGON 5:39 PM NL MW No sound 3 sec. Blue-green fireball. Explained. 11/02 PEKIN, IL. 8:15 PM NL 2 wit. No sound 3 sec. Yellow-white fireball, bright as moon. 11/02 GULF BREEZE, FL. 9:40 PM CE1 2 wit. Humming 5 min. Three bell-shaped objects, gray-blue, illuminated. 11/02 WHISPER BAY, FL. 9:30 PM CE1 2 wit. Humming XXXX Three bell-shaped objects, gray-blue, illuminated. 11/10 HOLMES COUNTY, OH. Night TR MW N/A Dogs barked on Friday, the 10th. Large circle, burn, 40-50' wide found. 11/12 INDIANAPOLIS, IN. Midnite NL MW No sound XXXX Video of NLs taken. Lights maneuvered at high speed. 11/12 FORT WAYNE, IN. 9:15 PM NL 2 wit. No sound 8 min. Dome w/lites observed. very unusual light patterns. 11/15 GULF BREEZE, FL. 9:00 PM NL 2 wit. No sound 6 sec. Beige cigar, 20-40' long went behind trees. Possible CE1. 11/15 SHORELINE PARK, FL. XXXX TC XX N/A XXXX Strange circular depression found. Note prior sighting. 11/22 GREENWOOD, IN. Night NL 1 wit. No sound XXXX Extremely bright lite observed. Possible CE4. 11/28 EVANSVILLE, IN. 1:30 AM NL 1 wit. No sound 3 min. Security guard saw slow orange ball that later had steady red lite. 11/30 PENSACOLA, FL. 6:30 PM NL 6 wit. No sound XXXX Huge glowing object hovered over Gulf, then moved west. 11/30 MIDWAY AREA, FL. 10:00 PM NL 1 wit. No sound 7 min. Car, EM effects, 2 very large triangular objects, 100' above ground. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- UFO REPORTS DECEMBER 1989 12/XX CARMEL, IN. 2:00 AM CE2 2 wit. No sound XXXX Object like "space shuttle" maneuvered over car, fuses blown. 12/01 INDIANAPOLIS, IN. 9:00 PM NL 3 wit. No sound XXXX Copters prompted a looksee outside, "boomerang" UFO observed outside. 12/13 GLEN RIDGE, N.J. 11:10 PM NL 2 wot. No sound 5 min. Speckely thing, like half-tone negative darted around. 12/14 CHIMAYO, N.M. 8:30 PM NL MW No sound 30 min. Several reports. One of a stealth surrounded by 7-8 lights. 12/15 MT. VERNON, IN. 6:03 PM NU MADAR XXXX XXXX Detection of magnetic anomaly. Sensor never returned to north. 12/17 MT. VERNON, IN. 9:14 AM NU MADAR XXXX XXXX Detection of magnetic anomaly. No return to north. 12/19 SIERRA CO., N.M. 11:00 PM RV MW No sound Hours. UFOs tracked on Radar near Socorro & Magdalena. 12/21 PENNSACOLE, FL. 12:30 AM NL 1 wit. No sound 5 min. Man saw object 200' over water. Bright beam from front. 12/21 MARTINSVILLE, IN. 1:00 AM CE2 2 wit. No sound 7 min. Rectangular object big as football field. Witnesses felt "pulsing". 12/21 INDIANAPOLIS, IN. Night CE2 2 wit. No sound 7 min. Rect. object, big as football field. Possibly 12/22. See next entry. 12/22 MT. VERNON, IN. 10:49 AM NU MADAR XXXX XXXX Detection of magnetic anomoly. No auto return. 12/28 MT. VERNON, IN. 8:10 PM NL 6 wit. No sound 3 min. UFO Filter Ctr. observed object while remote car (toy) had mind of own. 12/28 WEST COAST OF U.S. Night NL MW No sound XXXX Fireball observed from Grand Canyon to San Diego. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- January 1990 UFO Reports 1/XX CEDAR RIDGE, CA. 12:30 A NL 02 witnesses Bright & distant OBOLO zig-zagged in distance. No sound. XXXX 1/01 EUGENE, OR. 12:12 A NL 24 witnesses Five orange balls changed position in formation. No sound. 20 min. 1/01 GULF BREEZE, FL. 6:30 P NL 02 witnesses Women followed 10' elliptical w/lites down a street. No sound. 25 min. 1/04 NEWTON, N.J. 6:30 A NL 02 witnesses Oval/disc paced car, maneuvered, brilliant lites. No sound. 07 min. 1/06 CRAWFORDSVILLE, IN. 2:30 A NL 02 witnesses Big orange light circled & hovered within 1/2 mile. No sound. 20 min. 1/08 GULF BREEZE, FL. 6:30 P NL 02 witnesses Witnesses saw disc shaped obj. dart below clouds. No sound. 20 min. 1/08 GULF BREEZE, FL. 6:28 P NL 02 witnesses Ed and his wife/et al, took pictures of blk/disc. No sound. 32 min. 1/08 GULF BREEZE, FL. 6:30 P NL 01 witnesses Disc complete with "power ring" observed by witness. No sound. XXXX 1/11 EVANSVILLE, IN. 12:06 A NL 01 witness Amber light appeared to tumble. No sound. 03 min. 1/12 INDIANAPOLIS, IN. MIDNITE NL 04 witnesses Obj. with lites in circle, saucer-shaped. No sound. 05 min. 1/12 GULF BREEZE, FL. 8:30 P NL 06 witnesses 6 children saw 20' disc w/rect. windows low at 1/2 m. No sound. 07 min. 1/20 BOYLE, MS. 1:20 A CE2 01 witness Disc dodging trees paced auto at low level. EM effects. No snd. 04 min. 1/21 WAUPACA, PA. 5:30 P NL XX Triangle w/ deep red lite on bottom. No sound. No other details. 1/22 JACKSON, MS. 2:32 P SKY QUAKE Multiple witness Sonic boom or "skyquake" only, no UFO. Unexplained. 1/22 MOUNTAIN HOME, AR. DUSK NL Multiple witness Possible CE1, former copter pilot. No sound. 20 min. 1/22 PORT GRAHAM, AK. 7:00 P CE1 01 witness Wing with red and blue lites & spotlite observed. No sound. XXXX 1/22 ENGLISH BAY, AK. 7:40 P NL 02 witnesses Red lite, 50' altitude, range, 700'. No sound. XXXX 1/24 HERMISTON, OR. 4:35 P DD 01 witness Two round objects with openings seen flying behind trees. No sound. 1/24 WANAQUE, N.J. 9:30 P CE1 03 witnesses Object w/lites/pointed frt/rnded back, passed over car. No snd. 20 min. 1/25 PANHANDLE FL. 2:10 P SKYQUAKE Multiple witness Tremors or "skyquake" shook area as far as Mobile. Unidentified source. 1/25 MINNEAPOLIS, MN. 6:15 A NL Multiple witness Green light, possible meteors, seen over 12 hr. period? No sound. XXXX 1/25 LITTLE ROCK, AR. 6:20 A NL Multiple witness Sounds like fireball meteor. No sound. 07 seconds. 1/27 PULASKI, VA. 7:00 P NL Multiple witness Probably a fireball meteor. Also seen in NW N.C. No sound. 07 seconds. 1/28 STOCKBRIDGE, MI. XXXX NL Multiple witness Super large craft w/bright blue lites on perimeter. No sound. XXXX 1/29 WELLMAN, IA. 9:00 P NL 01 witness Huge dark mass, flanked by two beacons, lit by a halo. No sound. Brief. 1/31 BARTHOLOMEW, CO. 12:27 A NL Multiple witness Bright sparkling obj. seen. No sound. 20 min. No other details. 1/31 HARRISBURG, PA. 6:30 P NL 02 witnesses Another "stingray" seen. Thought it was troubled a/c. No snd. 10 min. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The preceeding courtesy of: Barbara Becker, UFO RESEARCH NETWORK, P.O. Box 19744, St. Louis, MO. 63144 Fran Ridge, UFO FILTER CTR., 618 Davis Dr., Mt. Vernon, IN. 47620 Bob Gribble, PHENOMENA RESEARCH, P.O. 1807, Seattle, WA. 98111 MUFONET BBS - John Komar-Sysop 1-901-785-4943 Memphis, Tenn. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- EOF -- Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!think.com!rpi!masscomp!peora!tous!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: INFO: Pyramid-shaped UFO sightings Message-ID: <1991Sep28.200703.12893@bilver.uucp> Date: 28 Sep 91 20:07:03 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 132 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2206 alt.conspiracy:7693 sci.skeptic:15662 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This information is presented for your persusal and is a continuation of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-) As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups exclusively, comments to me should be directed to dona@bilver.uucp in mail. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Message #7643 - BAMA Date : 21-Sep-91 21:56 From : John Powell To : James Nugent Subject : sightings Replies : #4930 <- In a message to Jerry Woody <19 Sep 91 22:35> James Nugent wrote: JN> I am interested in any further information I can access about this JN> sighting and any sightings taking place in northern California. I recently read a bunch of stuff/files that I had been meaning to get to and found some info that you might be interested in regarding sightings in California and Triangular UFOs. All of those messages follow. JN> I am greatly interested in PYRAMIDAL shaped UFO sightings abroad. I just posted, on the Fido UFO Echo, a highlight of a IUR article focusing on Belgium which had a triangular and a pyramidal UFO mentioned. You had asked Jerry about the difference between the triangular UFO and the Pyramidal UFO. From the descriptions I've read I would say the difference is that a Pyramidal UFO looks very much like a pyramid, tall and pointed. A triangular UFO looks like a Pyramidal UFO with about 80% of the top sliced off of it. However, a Triangular UFO may really be a Pyramidal UFO depending on the angle of view... The Bentwaters Case involves a triangular object that was about 2 meters in height. A mini-flap in the mid-60's _and_ in the mid-80's in DC and Virginia featured triangular-shaped UFOs. The Hudson Valley flap featured a triangular UFO as does the ongoing Fyffe flap. Thanks, take care. John. --- XRS! 4.50+ * Origin: Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence (Quick 1:19/19.19) Message #7644 - BAMA Date : 22-Sep-91 1:17 From : John Powell To : James Nugent Subject : Triangular UFOs Triangular UFOs from the Project Blue Book Unknowns: July 13, 1950; Redstone Arsenal, Alabama. 5 p.m. Witnesses: two skilled Arsenal employees including Mr. Washburn. one object, shaped like a bowtie, and like polished aluminum. Flew straight and level, then one triangle rotated 1/4 turn in the opposite direction and returned to its original position. The object then made a right-angle turn and accelerated away after at least 30 seconds. Jan. 8, 1951; South of Ft. Worth, Texas. 10:45 p.m. Witnesses: Mr. and Mrs. W.J. Boggus, plus unidentified drivers and passengers in other cars stopped to watch. Two groups of red and green lights in triangular formations were stationary and then moved. July 26, 1952; Kirtland AFB, New Mexico. 12:05 a.m. Witness: Airman lst Class J.M. Donaldson. Eight to ten orange balls in a triangular or V-formation flew very fast for 3-4 seconds. Aug. 29, 1952; west of Thule, Greenland (77' N., 75* 15' W.) 10:50 a.m. Witnesses: two U.S. Navy pilots flying a P4Y-2 patrol plane. Three white disc-shaped or spherical objects hovered, then flew very fast in a triangular formation, in 2-3 minutes. Sept. 14, 1952; North Atlantic, between Ireland and Iceland. Witnesses: military persons from several countries aboard ships in the NATO "Operation Mainbrace" exercise. Among the sightings: one blue-green triangle was observed flying 1,500 m.p.h; three objects in a triangular formation gave off white light exhaust at 1,500 m.p.h. June 24, 1953; Simiutak, Greenland. 11:30 a.m. Witness: weather observer A/2c R.A. Hill. One red triangle hovered and rotated for 15 seconds, then climbed for 5 minutes. Aug. 23, 1960; Wichita, Kansas. 3::24 a.m. Witness: Boeing aeronautical engineer C.A. Komiske. One round object with yellow lights coming from what looked like three triangular windows at bottom. Object was dull orange. Flew in an arc for 2 minutes. Sept. 3, 1965; Damon, Texas. 11 p.m. Witnesses: Brazoria County Chief Sheriff's Deputy Billy McCoy and Deputy Robert Goode. One triangular object, 150-200' long, 40-50' thick at middle and dark grey, with a long, bright, pulsing, purple light on the right side and a long blue light on the left side. Came from distance to 150' off highway and 100' in the air. Purple light illuminated ground beneath object and interior of police car. Driver felt heat on his left arm. Initial sighting lasted 5-10 minutes. Second sighting.occurred later that night. --- EOF --- Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!uunet!sdrc!cinnet!bryan From: bryan@cinnet.com (Bryan Klopfenstein) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Wants proof (was: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts) Summary: line noise?? Message-ID: <1991Sep29.233543.21233@cinnet.com> Date: 29 Sep 91 23:35:43 GMT References: <47838@cup.portal.com> Organization: Cincinnati Network, Cinti. OH Lines: 9 revpk@cellar.UUCP (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano) writes: > [..... He wants proof. Without] > that, the 'Plieaidian transcripts' are about as useful as line noise. I don't find line noise as entertaining, personally. -- Bryan Klopfenstein bryan@cniysc.cinnet.com Cincinnati Public Access Un*x ...!uunet!cinnet!bryan Cincinnati Ohio Voice: (513) 755-1035 Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Not In Kansas Anymore! Message-ID: <75806.28E6A001@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 30 Sep 91 03:33:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) > Date: 29 Sep 91 02:58:01 GMT > Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence > Message-ID: > Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors > > The four people who "disappeared" from Russell, Kansas recently are > alive > and well and on their way to Israel with Scott Corder, who apparently > made > a name for himself a few years ago by getting his medical license > revoked > for believing in a connection between UFOs and biblical prophecy. Thanks for the update. BTW, ParaNet ran an extensive story on this guy when this stuff was coming out. I will upload something to this newsgroup for others to see. Mike -- Michael Corbin - via FidoNet node 1:104/422 UUCP: !scicom!paranet!User_Name INTERNET: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!hellgate.utah.edu!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Stanton T. Friedman Message-ID: <75807.28E6A003@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 30 Sep 91 03:37:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - Date: 30 Sep 91 17:09:39 GMT Sender: newsdaemon@engage.pko.dec.com (USENET News Daemon) Organization: Digital Equipment Corporation Lines: 20 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15673 alt.paranormal:3200 alt.alien.visitors:2210 talk.religion.newage:6993 In article <47837@cup.portal.com>, Don_-_Showen@cup.portal.com writes... >Steve - Graziano comments and asks > >They further say that earth was created to be a galactic information exchange >for all life. So maybe the bar scene in Star Wars is really how our planet >will be in the future. We thought we had interracial problems, just wait to >see what kind of interspecie problems we are going to have. > >Don Showen Sounds like great fun to me. :-) ... We'll work it out, we always do. Mary --- Mary Stanley (INTERNET,UUCP) stanley@verga.enet.dec.com (UUCP) ...!decwrl!verga.enet!stanley (INTERNET) stanley%verga.enet@decwrl.dec.com --- Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm From: jdm@cadence.com (Joe Mastroianni) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: UFOs and Abductees Message-ID: <1991Sep30.200300.26694@cadence.com> Date: 30 Sep 91 20:03:00 GMT References: <3297@anaxagoras.ils.nwu.edu> <17865@dog.ee.lbl.gov> Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc. Lines: 40 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15678 alt.alien.visitors:2211 In article <17865@dog.ee.lbl.gov> jtchew@csa1.lbl.gov writes: >>> We knew exactly what would happen when the bomb was dropped because we >>> had previously dropped on at Los Alamos. > >Here's a minor quibble not especially related to our topic of whether >flying saucers exist and if so whether they give rides. > >I don't think all that much was known in detail about A-bomb effects after >the test at Trinity Site (a good 150 miles from Los Alamos, which is >still there, by the way). They knew that it would make a shock wave >similar to that of several thousand tons of TNT, and that there would >be plenty of neutrons and X-rays and a thermal pulse, and radioactive [stuff deleted] The Trinity Site, where the first atomic bomb was detonated by Oppenheimer and the boys was at a place called Alamagordo (spelling optional), I believe. The bomb was not dropped. Joe calls it a "near ground burst", which is probably a good description as any. The device was mounted on the top of a tower and detonated from a distance. I believe the triggering device was connected to the bunkers by wires. The bombs dropped on Japan were triggered by radar pulses. Lucky for us, the bomb did not start the atmosphere on fire. I believe it was Edward Teller who determined that the earth would not be set alight. At any rate, Teller later went on to build the "Super", or fusion bomb as we now know it. Teller is the model for Kubrick's Dr. Strangelove. "If mobility is not a problem, we can make them as large as you like..." or something like that. Joe (a different one) -- Joe Mastroianni AKA: AA6YD AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA Cadence Design Systems Santa Clara Ca. "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we jdm@cadence.com daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men " Path: ns-mx!uunet!zephyr.ens.tek.com!uw-beaver!pullen From: pullen@cs.washington.edu (Walter D. Pullen) Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Subject: A channeled message from Kuthumi to the U.N.: Message-ID: <1991Oct1.012125.27603@beaver.cs.washington.edu> Date: 1 Oct 91 01:21:25 GMT Sender: news@beaver.cs.washington.edu (USENET News System) Organization: University of Washington Computer Science Lines: 281 Xref: ns-mx talk.religion.newage:6998 alt.alien.visitors:2212 alt.paranormal:3205 MESSAGE FROM MASTER KUTHUMI TO THE ATTENDEES of the Parapsychology Society Subcommittee United Nations New York, New York October 15, 1990 Transmission received on October 11 and 12, 1990 by Dr. Norma Milanovich, Albuquerque, NM. Copyright 1990 by Dr. Norma Milanovich. All rights reserved. This message may be copied for the sole purpose of sharing it with others. No part of this message may be published, printed, transmitted, stored in a retrieval system, or translated into any other human language without the express permission of The Alpha Connection, Inc., Suite 204, 7410 Montgomery Blvd., NE, Albuquerque, NM 87109. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Kuthumi, I surround myself with Love and Light and request that you send me a transmission this evening. What message do you with to deliver to the United Nations group on October 15, 1990? Dearest daughter in the Light of the Most Radiant One. I, Kuthumi, come through this frequency this evening to honor you and your assignment to speak to a most distinguished group at the World Headquarters for Peace. I am honored to address this gathering of individuals, for this is a first time in the history of your modern civilization that we have been granted the opportunity to address such a distinguished audience with the dignity and respect for which we have yearned. We are gathered in the chambers of the Tribunal Council Assembly Hall on board the Starship Phoenix to witness an historic moment in the history of humankind. We move with much precision and deliberation to assure there will be no room for error in the receiving of this transmission. So let us begin. The tribute we first wish to being to our sons and daughters of planet Earth is a salute from the Most Radiant One, Sananda. We motion to all that we understand and witness the yearning in your hearts for the return of the Highest Being that has yet graced the surface of your beloved Terra. We hail from the seventh dimensional ethers to first speak to your hearts and then to your minds, for it is in the receiving of these words with your hearts, that Sananda wishes you to know that His love and devotion will soon be felt by all to an even greater intensity then what you presently witness. The message we bring is a collective one from the Tribunal Council of the Galactic Command. It brings the gifts of love and peace to all who hear the words and understand the truths that are inherent within the lines. We have collectively prepared this message to help you understand the depth and the breadth of the importance of these words, for it is in the collective that we have formulated the direction towards which we hope humanity will turn in the coming decade of the nineties. Before we begin, look around you, Oh Children of Terra, and focus on the goodness and Light within each soul. See the surrender of the ego to the Godself within, and know that when your inner eye sees this radiance in all, you are on the path to the Light and the ascended realms. Measure everyone with the rod of goodness and perceive the darkness not, for it is in the sight from restored eyes that you will soon be able to see the beautiful Light within yourselves, as well. The world faces difficult times ahead, as we measure the direction of the ethers. In this situation you must believe that no future is secure except that which you alone create. You have the power in the collective and in the singular to change any direction for the fate of the Earth. As you move with quiet surrender and focus your hearts on the Light and love of Sananda, know with much assurance that you will not be disappointed. His radiance is everywhere and will soon be prevalent even among those who do not understand or sense Him today. The physical structure in which you are meeting is situated on a global ley line that is synchronized with several power spots on your planet. It also connects many sacred energy points in the etheric, as well. The positioning of this Center for Peace was not accidental in its design and construction, for in the universal plan for peace this location was deemed to be of great importance. What this means for you and the direction for the world is that the window of time has been placed in the country of the United States of America. The mirror for this realization is found in the beloved capital city you call Washington, D.C. Have you never wondered, oh children, why the Washington Monument contains the pyramid on its structure? Have you never wondered why the great symbol of this same structure was placed on your medium for exchange, which is what has given you power till this present time? Can you not see that these symbols are deliberate and that they are impressed in your essence to connect you to your etheric roots, which are situated in another area of your globe? For the world, the Center for Peace mirrors the power of your great capital city. These two energy vortexes contain the power to direct the future of humankind. On one vortex sits the capital for world governments that can control the balance of power of the people. On the other vortex sits the capital of the people, which controls the power for the vortex of the world. In this mirroring effect comes the choice for all of you in the future race for time. Who will rule the direction of your planet as the sands of the Sahara run through the hour glass of time? Will it be the government of the people or the people's government? This question must be asked and pondered in the decade to come, for the answer will change the future and the events that will befall. May we, as the collective voice of the Tribunal Council, suggest that if this question is answered from the heart and not the mind, a clearer picture on the horizon for all will be seen. We state that if you ponder the direction with your heart and feel its quiet voice guide you that you will experience the confidence and peace for which you yearn. Truth is always in the heart. It is the sacred potent that directs each and all to the highest forms of consciousness and the law. It takes the darkness which surrounds the soul and brings in the Light of freedom. It moves the mountains and positions them in ways where new mysteries are discovered by all. We, on the ascended realms , await the time when the children of Earth do freely choose freedom and truth over the constraints of bondage. We await for the moments of triumph when the masses will no longer cry for the relief of the Most Radiant One. We have compassion for those who do not see with eyes of clear vision. We know that in the pain and the waiting there is also joy, for in the Oneness of the Creator all is contained within. The choices that will have to be made in the next decade will be those that will bring either great hardships or delights to the people of Earth. They will challenge all to know their values and limits, for the forces that manifest both fear and love will be intensified. In the moments or trial, oh dear ones, know what only love can win out over darkness and fear. Know that the vibration of the Light is the highest frequency there is and that this vibration will consume all of the darkness. Understand that the trials are only those which you impose upon yourselves, and work to discipline your minds and hearts to follow the higher agenda of the Godforce. We will assist any soul who comes forth in courage and dedication to raise its vibrations to that of love and Light. We will bring the gifts of the Magi to any who establishes a frequency of strength through visualizing the Light within their essence and physical structures. Know that you are guided always and that you do not walk alone, for your elder sisters and brothers on the higher realms are forever watching and protecting all who seek our strength. This is so! Work first on yourselves and then seek to find the goodness in others. Should you do so, you will find that this mirroring effect will result in the perfection of both your inner and outer sight. Use this technique then to being the peace and fulfillment of God's plan to the world, for it is through your consciousness that the world will be shaped. You understand not the power you contain within your own essence. You understand not the fortitude and strength that you really do command. Many give their power away to those who deserve it not, only because the strength of another's convictions is stronger than their own. The contests of change and control manifest through the strength of the will. These situations manifest through the intensity of the emotions you exhibit. Know that your strength of commitment to change is only as strong as your dedication to do so. If you choose to acknowledge our words as truth, then you shall quickly discover that your power has no limits. We await to assist you on your journey to transform the Earth into a Garden of Eden in the galaxy. We only wait to be asked. Know that through our strength and support that the mountains will be moved and that the streams will be purified. Believe in your hearts that the animal kingdom will once again be free and that the birds will fly with grace and spirit, should you begin the journey of bringing all kingdoms back into the higher thought realms. We see on the horizon the potential for the children of Earth to make the desired changes for peace and prosperity. We do not, however, see the commitment or awareness of our presence in your hearts, that we are here to assist you. We have been waiting for a long time to assist you on your Earth journey, and now proclaim we are here to do so. In this proclamation we only wait for you to ask. Many ask why we do not show ourselves to you in the physical form at your beckoning. Others wonder why we do not speak to them. We tell you that we are with all of you in your daily lives and that your sight need only be opened with the changing of your frequencies, for in the twinkling of an eye you can command the power to see and to know of our presence. The Galactic Command presently resides on a frequency that is higher than that of Earth's. It is a vibrational measurement that speaks to the refinement of the ethers. In this other dimension, we see and hear the lower frequencies, but you believe that you do not have the power to see us. Should you choose to refine your paths and individual vibrational frequencies to match that of ours, which is closer to the speed of Light, then you too will command the power of inner and outer sight. Each of us selected to accelerate our own paths in former incarnations on your beloved planet. We have learned the curriculum of the Earth and were granted the privilege of journeying to the higher realms of consciousness. This provides us now with the opportunity to work with each of you to help all who wish to journey to our home. We admit those with the compatible frequency that allows the qualities of love and Light to emanate form their souls. We call all to our home, but only few are chosen, for it is you who do the choosing. The choices you will collectively and singularly make in the decade to come will be difficult for some and easy for others. The choices will guarantee your futures and that of the planet's. You will see with greater clarity the truths of what we impart this day, in the months and years to come. Then you will know that our presence is real. Should you turn inward to your heart you will know today that we are with you always. Should you scoff and ignore, then you will prolong the pain and the yearning for the return of the Most Radiant One. For Sananda is coming to reclaim his lambs, and will touch each on both the heart and inner eye areas. This gesture will awaken all who choose to re-awaken after the long night of the dream. We seek to bring the Light to the Earth and continue to channel the higher vibrations into its essence from the Starships upon which we ride. We have great power, but will not interfere because of the universal law of non-interference. We honor and respect this law and know that in obeying it, we stand in the truths which we created. You too can stand in the truths should you choose, by turning your consciousness to the higher thought forms and participating in the laws that govern this parsec of the universe. In the years to come the Earth will be cleansed of the negativity that has choked its beauty. The options of how this will be accomplished are yours. Choose those options from the position of the heart, Oh Dear Ones, to lessen the pain of the inevitable. Cast aside the darkness and the shadows in the minds from this day forward, and know that the darkness is only the illusion. You have sixteen fears to conquer on your paths of initiation. Know that as you tremble and draw each to you, that you quickly pass the challenge and move on to higher tests of courage. Stand as spiritual warriors, like your sisters and brothers of the stars. Feel their presence and strength in the Light. Let no mortal take your power or conviction that God protects and watches over the children of Light. Rest in this assurance and see that the long, dark night of the soul is finally drawing to an end. You have been washed free of karmic debts as of the point of convergence of the harmonies. The sound vibrations have intersected in your souls with the colors of the Light frequencies of Sananda. Feel this forgiveness and know that your debts have been paid. Look upward now and see that your salvation is truly in the hands of the Great Central Sun and Creator of the All. That is why we suggested in the beginning that you look outward and see the perfection in each that resides beside you. We close this communication to you know, with an invitation to join us in the chambers of the Tribunal Council. Under normal protocol, this chamber is reserved for dignitaries who grace our ships with intention and duty. We invite you to come to us in your dream states on the etheric and in your meditations, and if you should do so, we will grant you the voting power of the Center of Peace aboard the Phoenix. Vote with confidence if you are admitted. As we have stated, it is you who do the choosing. You are the ones who understand the days and the nights. You are also the ones who know the power that you have taken from yourselves. Oh Children, remember that "Of you, you do nothing. It is the Father within you that does it all." Work to bring your consciousness to the Godself above you and connect to your Higher Self. Feel its presence and discipline yourselves to reclaim your own divinity. It surely will be restored in a brief moment of time. This is the truth. This is the way. We discontinue this transmission now, for our Daughter in the Light is getting weak from our energy. We thank you for inviting us to present our message through her this evening. We look forward to the time when we will communicate to each of you in the same, direct manner, for that is truly the most desirable goal. Stand tall and in beauty, sisters and brothers of the stars. I AM Kuthumi, your Father and World Teacher for the next millennium. Good evening in the radiance of the Highest. Adonai. -- Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!jpl-devvax!aloise From: aloise@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.gov (Jim Aloise) Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: A channeled message from Kuthumi to the U.N.: Message-ID: <1991Oct1.040954.27595@jpl-devvax.jpl.nasa.gov> Date: 1 Oct 91 04:09:54 GMT References: <1991Oct1.012125.27603@beaver.cs.washington.edu> Reply-To: aloise@jpl-devvax.JPL.NASA.GOV (Jim Aloise) Organization: Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, CA Lines: 22 Xref: ns-mx talk.religion.newage:7002 alt.alien.visitors:2213 alt.paranormal:3208 In article <1991Oct1.012125.27603@beaver.cs.washington.edu> pullen@cs.washington.edu (Walter D. Pullen) writes: > > MESSAGE FROM MASTER KUTHUMI TO THE ATTENDEES > of the > Parapsychology Society Subcommittee > United Nations [deleted (with pleasure)] >We discontinue this transmission now, for our Daughter in the Light is >getting weak from our energy. She's not the only one to get weak from your energy. >We look forward to the time when >we will communicate to each of you in the same, direct manner, for >that is truly the most desirable goal. About as desirable as diarrhea. >I AM Kuthumi, your Father and World Teacher for the next millennium. >Good evening in the radiance of the Highest. Adonai. Yeah, good night Dad. Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!seagoon.newcastle.edu.au!cc.newcastle.edu.au!ccasm From: ccasm@cc.newcastle.edu.au Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: The West NY Sightings (part ?) Message-ID: <1991Oct1.145552.10750@cc.newcastle.edu.au> Date: 1 Oct 91 04:55:51 GMT Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA Lines: 41 West NY UFO parts 1 & 2 The `Westchester Wing' Theory All was going well until ...SPECULATION. Then came all the bullshit! - Sorry unfounded speculation. Why do people have to destroy all their hard work with such biased "guessing'? There was no mention of anything that could not be explained by (say) one or more helicopters suspending a giant wing-shaped balloon with navigation lights on it with a very long wire. "It seemed very thin" and the author had been temporarily fooled by a formation fly-over by aircraft. Theory 1: They may have been testing the radar effects of the stealth bomber wing. And witnesses reported helicopters - dark blue ones, military style. Theory 2: They may have been advertising the tv show V, as suggested. It was over an affluent population and the owner of the helicopter was from California - (Hollywood?). Remember Orson Wells' War of the Worlds! Theory 3: They were testing/debugging the latest cruise missile terrain-sensing software, requiring slow close-to-ground real-time feedback. I could go on but what is the point. The author speculated that anti-aircraft missiles were destroyed, guidance systems knocked out, interceptors lost, radar jammed, a superior culture was responsible, an alien UFO agency, visitors, or groups of visitors, unconsious telepathy, psychic interaction(!?), lights saying "hello", nuclear weapons storage surveillance, aliens serving a purpose - reinforcing UFO reality, a superior culture which will not allow nuclear conflict. Phew....:-)......He forgot abductees, implants and missing time. No doubt these will be found in the near future. The author could have looked for earthly explanations, if he had an open mind. But no.....It reflects a psychological need for a GOD-like solution;a magic pill; a need to see all current authority replaced by a new order (himself?) AFTER ALL, WHY LET A FEW FACTS SPOIL A GOOD STORY / INCOME. Path: ns-mx!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!emory!att!csn!scicom!paranet!p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG!Michael.Corbin From: Michael.Corbin@p0.f428.n104.z1.FIDONET.ORG (Michael Corbin) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Corder posting Message-ID: <75863.28E79A43@paranet.FIDONET.ORG> Date: 30 Sep 91 21:27:00 GMT Sender: ufgate@paranet.FIDONET.ORG (newsout1.26) Organization: FidoNet node 1:104/428.0 - Date: 1 Oct 91 07:41:40 GMT References: <1991Sep30.170806.18957@engage.pko.dec.com> Organization: The Portal System (TM) Lines: 48 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15707 alt.paranormal:3209 alt.alien.visitors:2216 talk.religion.newage:7004 Hi all, I want to attempt to clear up a few things. First I want to say this is a lot of fun, I am getting a lot of laughs, making some new friends and really enjoying sharing the Pleiadian transcripts with so many ( over 110 of you net folks have received the transcripts). I only get to be with Barbra and the Pleiadians once a year when they visit my area, and I haven t asked them anything yet. Those tricky Pleiadians keep telepathically reading my mind and answer my questions before I can verbally ask them. The rest of my contact with them is by listening to their cassette lectures. Another thing is that the Pleiadians are spiritual, metaphysical teachers and I consider what they teach to be among the highest quality of information I have encountered. I consider my spiritual growth and development to be my highest priority, purpose. I personally would not want the Pleiadians to waste their or my time talking about earths limited scientific concepts. Since spirit is not provable and cannot be seen or measured and since many of you think this is your only lifetime it is a waste of your time to get involved in these discussions. Let s face it you are not going to convince me that spirit does not exist and I am not going to convince you that it does, so why don't you just put showen and pleiadians in your kill file and let the rest of us have a discussion. Now maybe I made a mistake bringing in another channels explanations as to why she could not channel technical stuff, ie. the other channel, btw her name is Carole. Now somewhere on a floppy I have transcribed what Einstein said through Carole about why he couldn t bring through technical information because Carole did not have a technical vocabulary. I could dig it out. But I don t think that is really necessary because there is an excellent example of someone who has channeled real hardware. Nikola Tesla had over 700 patents. He is the man responsible for Alternating Current and radio being on this planet. He freely admitted he was getting assistance from higher, extraterrestrial intelligence. Now Tesla did go to college and studied engineering. In fact when he was in school he presented his theory of alternating current and the professor spent the whole class period putting Tesla and the theory down. Now lucky for us that Tesla was not a Skeptic and more interested in what his peers thought than truth, or we would be using Edisions DC power with a generating plant every few blocks. So maybe Tesla only channeled electrical and mechnical devices and not any math, I doubt it. The point is that maybe those of you who have a solid science background, have it as a foundation to receive and implement new technologies from higher intelligence. All I am saying is that there is higher intelligence out there and maybe you can receive or are receiving it. If only you would stop screaming and believing - if it can t be seen it does not exist. Listen! Don Showen Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!apple!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen From: Don_-_Showen@cup.portal.com Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts Message-ID: <48016@cup.portal.com> Date: 1 Oct 91 07:43:01 GMT References: <1991Sep30.170806.18957@engage.pko.dec.com> Organization: The Portal System (TM) Lines: 37 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15708 alt.paranormal:3210 alt.alien.visitors:2217 talk.religion.newage:7005 Barry Merriman confesses >Personally, if I went into trance states and channeled "alter intelligences", >I'd be seriously worried that I was insane, or diseased, and the first thing I >would do is ask for some simple verification. If none is forthcoming, I'd >submit myself for pschological/medical tests immediately, to look for presence >of brain tumors or other disorders. >Really Don, its highly irresponsible for you to encourage the channeller to >continue, when this could be the manifestation of some severe mental or >physical disease that could be treated if caught early enough. It is well >known that various disorders manifest themselves as hearing voices, having >vivid hallucinations, etc, all which could be mistaken as some form of >"contact" with another intelligence, except for the fact that these contacts >contain no factual information unknown to the reciever. Barry I really want to express my thanks and gratitude for your confession. You do the churches, govt., education system and AMA proud! You are responding precisely the way they programed you. Beautiful!!!! You see divine inspiration has always been a problem. The churches had to stop divine inspiration because if one listens to their inner voice they will KNOW their connection to All That Is and will not be available to follow dogma. Consequently millions were burned at the stake for listening to their inner voice (divine inspiration). Well the govts came along and cut a deal with the church. Basically it was to use education as a way to get individuals afraid of and/or unconscious of divine inspiration, by getting them to believe if they couldn t see it it didn t exist. So they would be educated to go to a doctor if they noticed a inner voice. Now how did doctors get in on the deal? Well if a person is divinly inspired they don t get sick, so guess who would be out of business, non other but the AMA. So I am sure the churches, govt., schools, and the AMA are proud of you, you are a shining example of their work. BTW did you take a pay off to write that? I wonder how many times you have been burned at the stake? Would you be interested in doing some past life work with me and find out? Don Showen Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!rpi!masscomp!peora!tous!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: INFO: Houston Chronicle article on Betty Cash and Vickie Landrum Message-ID: <1991Sep29.193320.22541@bilver.uucp> Date: 29 Sep 91 19:33:20 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 273 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2218 alt.conspiracy:7726 sci.skeptic:15711 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This information is presented for your perusal and is a continuation of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-) As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups exclusively, comments to me should be directed to dona@bilver.uucp in mail. --------------------------------------------------------------------- I was browsing the FIDO UFO echo, which is incidentally the _largest_ backboned message area in the US on UFO's...I came across this message. ______________________________________________________________________ Message #7528 - UFO Date : 29-Sep-91 11:33 From : Michael Johnson To : All Subject : Huffman,, Texas UFO tale UFINET_NEWS September 27,1991 ============================== Taken from an article in the Houston Chronicle dated Sept.15,1991. Transcribed by Michael Johnson 80:101/10 _______________________________________________ From: The Houston Chronicle Date: 09/15/1991 Section: Metropolitan (C) Page:1c,7c Author: Cindy Horswell (Chronicle Staff) Photo's accompany the article Title: Twice burned, not shy Byline: Stung by radiation,ridicule,trio stick to UFO story Day: Sunday Edition: morning ________________________________________________ =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ------------Article__STARTS_HERE---------------- ________________________________________________ Twice burned,not shy Stung by radiation,ridicule,trio stick to UFO story By Cindy Horswell Houston Chronicle DAYTON-- More than a decade after going public with their strange injuries an an even stranger tale of a UFO encounter, Betty Cash and Vickie Landrum are sticking by their story. Federal officials have pooh-poohed their claims and a judge dismissed their lawsuit against the US government for lack of evidence. In addition, the two women and Landrum's grandson, who was with them that night in 1980, say they have suffered public ridicule. Still they aren't backing down. In fact, they hope to revive their case. Whether it was piloted by little green men or by humans at the controls of a secret military project,Cash and Landrum insist they saw an Unidentified Flying Object that night---- and that they have the injuries to prove it. Their skin is so sensitive now it only tolerates cold showers, they say, and they must hide like hermits from the sun to avoid blistering. Medical bills are mounting, and so are their worries. Cash, a cafe owner, and Landrum, a waitress, blame these and other strange maladies on the intense heat that they say came from the bizarre diamond-shaped craft. The encounter, on Dec. 29,1980, occurred on an isolated road in the piney woods northeast of Houston in Liberty County, the two women say. Since then they have lived mainly on Social Security, saying they are too ill to hold jobs. But their story has spread internationally, including Omni magazine and several TV programs,and the mystery still arouses curiosity. Their lawsuit alleged they were injured by an experimental military craft that spewed radiation, or by a UFO under surveillance by military helicopters. Cash and Landrum have been besieged with telephone calls-- including some from anonamous tipsters telling of a top secret project, WASP-2, allegedly discontinued after radiation accidents. Their attorney, Clay Ford of Gulf Breeze, Fla., wants to reopen the case by showing government officials lied about record keeping procedures during pretrial proceedings. Meanwhile he is negotiating the sale of his client's movie rights. It all started when the two women and Landrum's grandson, Colby, then 7, drove to New Caney in search of a bingo game. The bingo halls had closed for the Christmas holidays, however, so they had dinner in that east Montgomery County town and headed home. The women say Colby noticed a bright light in the distance as they traveled down FM 1485 about 9 p.m.. Quickly, they say, a large object emitting the light swooped over the tree tops and hovered over a spot just ahead. "I screamed for Betty to stop", said Landrum. "I do believe that if we would have continued we would have burned up". Red-orange flames belched downward as the object struggled to rise, then sputtered and plunged back toward the road, she said. The flames roared like a blowtorch, she said, and the object also made a shrill beeping noise. "It was a dull gray,metallic color and about the size of a water tower. It looked as if it would set the woods on fire," recalled Cash, who said she stood outside and watched for 10 minutes. Landrum said she and Colby also left the car but quickly returned, and the boy cowered on the floor. Finally, the UFO gave one last blast and flew out of sight with at least 23 helicopters in pursuit, the two women said. "It's been a nightmare that I wish I could forget," said Cash, now 62 and living in Alabama near her family. Her physician, Dr. Bryan McClelland of Birmingham,says she has a "textbook case" of radiation poisoning. He compares it to being three to five miles from the epicenter of Hiroshima. McClelland said a 1981 biopsy found radiation dermatitis. "The dry, thin skin on her hand resembles that of a 90-year-old lady, with red and purple streaks," he said. Landrum's doctor declined comment on her ailments. Houston doctors who first examined the trio say they appeared burned, had puffy, swollen eyes and their hair came out in clumps. Though they couldn't settle on a cause, they did not rule out radiation. "The Cash-Landrum case could very well be the most important UFO incident to surface in the last 20 years, since there was something to examine afterwards," said John Schuessler, a McDonnell-Douglas space shuttle engineer and deputy director of the Mutual UFO Network. MUFON is a nationwide, 2,100-member organization that investigates and catalogs UFO sightings and incidents. Cash and Landrum say their health began deteriorating the night of the incident, with the severity depending on the amount of exposure of the intense heat. They say all three suffered problems, including red, blistering skin; nausea; diarrhea; headaches; and swollen, watery eyes. Later, they said, they experienced hair loss, open sores that were slow to heal, depressed immune systems and failing eyesight. "I couldn't take care of myself for two years," said Cash, who claims the longest exposure to the intense light. "I was either bedridden or in the hospital (including for three weeks just after the sighting)." Besides physical injuries, the trio suffered emotionally. Landrum, who still lives in Dayton with her grandson, said people stared at her and gave her a wide berth, calling her "the UFO lady". Colby, now 17 who had the mildest exposure and symptoms, was teased until he sank into a severe depression, Landrum said. She did not want the youth interviewed, but his journal gave some insight to his feelings. "I am not made fun of as much as I had been. But I am sick a lot, and my eyes are still very bad," he wrote recently. "I still look up when I go outside.I guess it is just a habit, but I always wonder what is up there. Lots of nights I lay awake wondering if other kids have gone through what I have." Since the three reported their encounter, others have said they saw the helicopters or a strange flying object that night. Dayton police Officer L.L.Walker and his wife Marie, reported seeing a half-dozen helicopters flying in "V" formation with searchlights. Belle Magee, then a bakery clerk in the area, reported seeing a bright light " like a football field but up in the sky" heading north toward New Caney. Also, a former Liberty County sherrifs deputy reported seeing an identical object almost two years later as he drove on an isolated road near Cleaveland. John Mark McDonald- now a Lake Jackson police officer- described it as diamond shaped, about half the size of a football field and the color of galvanized steel. The only difference between his sighting and the 1980 report was that his had red lights on each corner. "Everybody was riding me about reporting it -- thought I was crazy," McDonald said. "But I just knew it wasn't an airplane, because I've been working in the U.S. Army Reserves and know about every fixed wing (craft) there is." Today, Landrum and Cash are anxious for some answers. Cash still has the 1980 Oldsmobile she drove that night. She says the intense heat embedded Landrum's handprint in the padded dashboard. Also, she said two unidentified men in military uniforms once offered to buy the car. Dr. McClelland, who said his secretary witnessed the offer, suspects somebody wanted to get rid of the car because "ion (electrically charged atoms) tracks are visible on the chrome." Another quirk was the unexplained repair of a melted spot in the road where the incident occurred, Schuessler said. "I have photographs of a 15- to 25-foot area where even the center stripe was wiggly," he said. A year later, he said, the spot had been resurfaced.Schuessler said county officials denied any knowledge of the repair. The reported sighting has attracted numerous other responses, including some from the fringe. On one nationally syndicated TV special, two men using disguises and the names "Falcon" and "Condor" told wild tales of U.S. pilots having problems while testing a nuclear powered craft that had been acquired from extraterrestrials. Other tips are coming from callers who recently saw the UFO story aired on the Unsolved Mysteries TV program... Still others, claiming to be military people or their relatives, have called to say they flew helicopters that night, despite the pentagon's denial. At least two callers linked the UFO to a classified project, WASP-2, which they said was an experimental nuclear-powered craft abandoned after 1982 when it couldn't stop irradiating people. "The trouble is that most all the people with something significant to say were anonymous," said Schuessler. Paul M. Koloc, a retired U.S. Navy research physicist from Maryland, confirmed the existance of a research program called Winged Aircraft Special Projects. However, he theorizes the object Cash and Landrum reported may have been ball lightning, caused by a huge lightning bolt and hot gases. Lt. Col. George C. Sarran, an Army congressional liason who recently was sent to review the case, concluded that while there was no indication that anyone was trying to exaggerate the events, he also found that no "Army-related" helicopters were involved. "Sarran told me, 'I know something terrible has happened to you, but I don't know what it is,' " Cash said. Neither do she and Landrum. ----------------------------------------------------- ________________________________________________ =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ------------Article__ENDS___HERE---------------- ________________________________________________ Twice burned,not shy Stung by radiation,ridicule,trio stick to UFO story _______________________________________________ END OF HUFFMAN, TEXAS UFO STORY TRANSPOSED FROM 9/15/91 ISSUE OF THE HOUSTON CHRONICLE ==================================================== This file was issued from RADIO_FREE_HOUSTON ==================================================== -- EOF -- Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!rpi!masscomp!peora!tous!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.binaries.pictures,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic Subject: GIF: Picture of Fireball UFO Message-ID: <1991Sep29.201914.23000@bilver.uucp> Date: 29 Sep 91 20:19:14 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 213 Xref: ns-mx alt.binaries.pictures:2015 alt.alien.visitors:2219 sci.skeptic:15712 I dug this up the other day and am posting it to the net. This particular GIF is a mono type that shows a pic of the Fireball type UFO and a little description of it. 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Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!rpi!masscomp!peora!tous!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.binaries.pictures,alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic Subject: GIF: Illlustration of a UFO with "occupant" : -) Message-ID: <1991Sep29.202224.23067@bilver.uucp> Date: 29 Sep 91 20:22:24 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 287 Xref: ns-mx alt.binaries.pictures:2016 alt.alien.visitors:2220 sci.skeptic:15713 Yea..This is yet-another UFO illustration..this one is destined to become a "Klass"ic :-) ------- cut here ------------------------------------------------- begin 664 ufoocc.gif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M.2:V(U$" O@./?\%..15H.F7'W".K1@C8>DUPR"343[VC(M5YC9<9HU=B5MP D'@I)1X:Z2#=":=JPMQ2@BRRJN2:;2[8)Q8S?'6C@FSD4 [ end ------ cut here --------------------------------------------- Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!rpi!masscomp!peora!tous!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: FILE: Codex.asc - Peruvian AF encounter with Aliens Message-ID: <1991Sep30.022452.26277@bilver.uucp> Date: 30 Sep 91 02:24:52 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 206 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2221 alt.conspiracy:7727 sci.skeptic:15714 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This information is presented for your perusal and is a continuation of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-) As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups exclusively, comments to me should be directed to dona@bilver.uucp in mail. --------------------------------------------------------------------- This comes from the MUFONET UFO BBS.. --------------------------------------------------------------------- THE CODEX Vol 1 No. 3 copyright 1991 Aztec Enterprises P.O. Box 668 Bushkill, Pennsylvania 18324 Any of You Earthlings Wanna Come Out and Play? By Carl Aztec I recently came into possession of a United States Government document that was once classified Top Secret. This document was obtained under the under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA). This document describes an encounter between the Peruvian Air Force and a UFO. Now, I've seen and read many FOIA documents before, but the account described in this document is a bit different than the "typical" UFO encounter, that is, if there is such a thing as a "typical" encounter! I have reproduced this particular document which follows: DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF MESSAGE CENTER VZCZCMLT565 7YUW MULT ACTION 18134 DIA: DISTR - IADB(01) J5(02) J3:NMCC NIDS SECDEF(07) SECDEF: USDP(15) - ATSD:AE(01) ASD:PA&E(01) ::DIA(20) NMIC CMC CC WASHINGTON DC CSAF WASHINGTON DC CNO WASHINGTON DC CSA WASHINGTON DC CIA WASHINGTON DC SECSTATE WASHINGTON DC NSA WASH DC FILE (047) TRANSIT/1542115/1542207/000:52TOR1542204 DE RUESLMA W4888 154115 ZNY CCCCC R 0220527 JUN 80 FM USDAD LIMA PERU TO RUEKJCS/DIA WASHDC INFO RULPALJ/USCINCSO QUARRY HTS PN RULPAFA/USAFSO HOWARD AFB PN BT SUBJ: IR 6 876 0146 80 (U) THIS IS AN INFO REPORT, NOT FINALLY EVAL INTEL 1. (U) CTRY: PERU (PE) 2. TITLE (U) UFO SIGHTED IN PERU (U) 3. (U) DATE OF INFO: 800510 4. (U) ORIG: USDAO AIR LIME PERU 5. (U) REQ REFS: Z-D13-PE030 6. (U) SOURCE: 6 876 0138. OFFICER IN THE PERUVIAN AIR FORCE WHO OBSERVED THE EVENT AND IS IN A POSITION TO BE PARTY TO CONVERSATION CONCERNING THE EVENT. SOURCE HAS REPORTED RELIABLY IN THE PAST. 7.SUMMARY: SOURCE REPORTED THAT A UFO WAS SPOTTED ON TWO DIFFERENT OCCASIONS NEAR PERUVIAN AIR FORCE (FAP) BASE IN SOUTHERN PERU. THE FAP TRIED TO INTERCEPT AND DESTROY THE UFO, BUT WITHOUT SUCCESS. PAGE 1 00101111 DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF MESSAGE CENTER PAGE 2 18134 8A. DETAILS: SOURCE TOLD RO ABOUT THE SPOTTING OF AN UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECT IN THE VICINITY OF MARIANO MELGAR AIR BASE, LA JOYA, PERU (16805S, 0715306W). SOURCE STATED THAT THE VEHICLE WAS SPOTTED ON TWO DIFFERENT OCCASIONS. THE FIRST WAS DURING THE MORNING HOURS OF 9 MAY 80, AND THE SECOND DURING THE EARLY EVENING HOURS OF 10 MAY 80. SOURCE STATED THAT ON 9 MAY, WHILE A GROUP OF FAP OFFICERS WERE IN FORMATION AT MARIANO MALGAR, THEY SPOTTED A UFO THAT WAS ROUND IN SHAPE, HOVERING NEAR THE AIRFIELD. THE AIR COMMANDER SCRAMBLED AN SU-22 AIRCRAFT TO MAKE AN INTERCEPT. THE PILOT, ACCORDING TO A THIRD PARTY, INTERCEPTED THE VEHICLE AND FIRED UPON IT AT VERY CLOSE RANGE WITHOUT CAUSING ANY APPARENT DAMAGE. THE PILOT TRIED TO MAKE A SECOND PASS ON THE VEHICLE, BUT THE UFO OUT-RAN THE SU-22. THE SECOND SIGHTING WAS DURING HOURS OF DARKNESS. THE VEHICLE WAS LIGHTED. AGAIN AN SU-22 WAS SCRAMBLED, BUT THE VEHICLE OUT-RAN THE AIRCRAFT. 8B.ORIG CMTS: RO HAS HEARD DISCUSSION ABOUT THE SIGHTING FROM OTHER SOURCES. APPARENTLY SOME VEHICLE WAS SPOTTED, BUT ITS ORIGIN REMAINS UNKNOWN. 9. (U) PROJ NO: N/A 10. (U) COLL MGMT CODES: AB 11. (U) SPEC INST: NONE. DIRC: NO. 12. (U) PREP BY: NORMAN H. RUNGE, COL, AIRA 13. (U) APP BY: VAUGHN E. WILSON, CAPT, DATT, ALUSNA 14. (U) REQ EVAL: NO. REL TO: NONE 15. (U) ENCL: N/A 16. (U) DIST BY ORIG: N/A BT W4888 ANNOTES JAL 117 PAGE 2 00101111 NNNN 0222087 [end] OK, now that you've read it, let us look at a few of the interesting "behavior patterns" of this UFO. This document says: THE PILOT, ACCORDING TO A THIRD PARTY, INTERCEPTED THE VEHICLE AND FIRED UPON IT AT VERY CLOSE RANGE WITHOUT CAUSING ANY APPARENT DAMAGE. THE PILOT TRIED TO MAKE A SECOND PASS ON THE VEHICLE, BUT THE UFO OUT-RAN THE SU-22. This UFO didn't want to give the SU-22 pilot another opportunity to fire upon it. Why? Could it be that the UFO pilot(?) thought his ship could be damaged or destroyed if hit? If this is true, why was the SU-22 allowed to come so close initially? Surely the UFO would be aware of our technology and capabilities and our attitudes towards UFOs flying into restricted airspace! Or do we assume too much about their knowledge of us? And as if this isn't strange enough: THE SECOND SIGHTING WAS DURING HOURS OF DARKNESS. THE VEHICLE WAS LIGHTED. AGAIN AN SU-22 WAS SCRAMBLED, BUT THE VEHICLE OUT-RAN THE AIRCRAFT. This UFO comes back. But this time it knows a little more of our capabilities and our intentions. That is, we're gonna shoot it down! So the UFO, in it's wisdom, TURNS ON IT'S LIGHTS! Why? I think it's obvious: It turned on it's lights because it wanted to be seen! Remember, the first time it was sighted was not by any high -tech radar that you'd expect to be operating in or around an air base but by a group of officers flying in formation. SOURCE STATED THAT ON 9 MAY, WHILE A GROUP OF FAP OFFICERS WERE IN FORMATION AT MARIANO MALGAR, THEY SPOTTED A UFO THAT WAS ROUND IN SHAPE, HOVERING NEAR THE AIRFIELD. So the owners of this UFO are smart enough to build a craft that is radar invisible, can out run an SU-22, and they are smart enough to not want to be shot at - so isn't it a bit odd that they are intentionally leaving their running lights on! I think we're being played with, tested, poked and prodded just to see what we can do and are capable of doing. We are their guinea pigs. --- EOF --- Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!rpi!masscomp!peora!tous!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: INFO: Pennsylvania UFO Sightings Message-ID: <1991Sep30.022845.26379@bilver.uucp> Date: 30 Sep 91 02:28:45 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 644 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2222 alt.conspiracy:7728 sci.skeptic:15715 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This information is presented for your perusal and is a continuation of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-) As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups exclusively, comments to me should be directed to dona@bilver.uucp in mail. --------------------------------------------------------------------- These are some MUFON sightings reports that I concatenated together into a single report. --------------------------------------------------------------------- MUFONET-BBS NETWORK ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ January 17, 1989 Tribune-Democrat Johnstown, Pennsylvania CAMBRIA WAS UFO HOTBED By James W. Siehl The Tribune-Democrat Cambria County had an extremely high number of unexplained UFO incidents in 1988, according to Stan Gordon of Greensburg, director of the Pennsylvania Association for the Unexplained (PASU). In his annual report, Mr. Gordon said information about unusual incidents was received from people in 25 other counties, as well as from Ohio, West Virginia, Maryland and New Jersey. The sightings were reported by people of all walks of life, among them police officers and pilots, according to Mr. Gordon. "In recent years, the typical saucer shaped UFO is rarely reported. Many witnesses claim to have encountered large, mostly silent, metallic, elongated cigar-shaped objects, as well as large triangular and rectangular shaped devices," Mr. Gordon said. He said there is no explanation for 44 percent of the unprecedented 350 UFO cases and other strange incidents the state experienced in 1988, including numerous reports of encounters with the legendary Bigfoot and observations of black panthers and mountain lions. There also were reports of giant footprints, unusual geological finds, beams of light from the sky coming from no apparent source, fireballs and strange animal killings. Mr. Gordon said the wave of UFO sightings began in August 1987 and continues to date. Some cases involve local power failures and reported landings or near landings of objects--some with physical traces left behind. "PASU also investigated a number of claims by state residents who felt that they had been temporarily abducted aboard a UFO, physically examined and then released," Mr. Gordon said. Many of the sightings were concentrated in specific areas for a period of time, according to Mr. Gordon. Fifty unusual incidents were reported in Cambria County last year, Mr. Gordon said, compared with four in 1987. Most reported sightings of UFOs, but five reported sightings of Bigfoot in the South Fork/New Germany area during August, he said. Of those, 40 cases including the five Bigfoot sightings, remain a mystery, Mr. Gordon said. Incidents reported in 1988 in other area counties totaled 1 in Blair; 7, Somerset; 3, Bedford; 15, Indiana; and 137, Westmoreland, which experienced a number of sightings last year of Bigfoot along Chestnut Mountain Ridge in the Ligonier, Latrobe and Denny areas. Mr. Gordon said media coverage of his organization in Cambria and Westmoreland counties may account for some of the calls as people are made aware of the service. He said the organization receives practically no crank calls. Below are some 1988 cases highlights: February--A 60 foot long object with several rows of lights, described by some as looking like a small cruise ship in the sky, was seen by numerous independent observers between 7:45 and 8:30 p.m. in a 10 mile area bordering Cambria and Somerset counties. The object passed over cars and trees--at times between 50 and 100 feet above the ground. It emitted only a slight humming sound and at times projected multiple beams of light toward the ground. July--Numerous UFO sightings were reported in Indiana County during the month near the electric generating station near Homer City. For several weeks, residents reported slowly dropping fireballs and strange sounds. On the night of July 17, several witnesses observed two objects with read and green flashing lights make two close passes near the facility. Later, one of the objects made two passes about 200 feet above the ground. It was described as circular and about the size of a large car with four lighted, leg like projections on the bottom. Sept. 2--Ebensburg R.D. On a Sunday afternoon, a man sitting by a pond at his rural residence was startled to see an orange/red spherical object come out of the sky from the north. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- # 890104 : Near Harrisburg, PA. Event date, December 4, 1988, 5:25 a.m. A state corrections officer (name withheld) was driving his car to his prison work site when he was blinded by a light, swerving to a halt on the road. Departing the car, he tried to study the object but could not make out a shape due to its brilliance. A strong wind emanated from either the object or general weather conditions. About 75 feet in diameter, the object was perhaps ovular, polished silver, and approximately 150 feet overhead. A medium tone humming sound was distinct. After an undetermined number of minutes, the vehicle departed, laterally at first, then vertically. The witness then realized an auto a short distance ahead. The motorist, an older well-dressed man, exhibited tears and appeared terrified. The man remarked that he had been returning from work, which the officer found odd. He then felt the car hood, which was cold. Immediately following the incident, the officer experienced a severe "sunburn", vision and hearing difficulties, headache and dizziness, musculature aches and a skin rash. His auto was coated with a thin coating of material later analyzed by a laboratory as having high concentrations of particular elements. (Analysis: A classic CE-2, faulted only by the fact that the officer, in the excitement of the moment, failed to obtain the second motorist's name or license number before he drove away. Another prison officer verified hearing a humming sound from his home within minutes of the roadside encounter and in the direction which the object departed. Highly significant). ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- LOG # 890719 - Event 05/17/89, in a suburb of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Investigator Evelyn Schurman. Two women were driving on a residential street when they noticed an oval shape with beacon-sized red lights along the side, hovering in the near distance. The object retreated and returned several times over two minutes, then accelerated vertically. They filed a police report immediately. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- LOG # 891002 - Event 09/03/89, near Ebenburg, Pennsylvania, investigator Paul Kessler. A high school boy confronted an arrowhead-shaped object at close range while driving. At first moving very slowly at utility line height, it accelerated while simultaneously rotating counter-clockwise until lost from view. The vehicle was described as larger than an auto with an undercarriage surface of gray-white transected by a broad black stripe. A set of red lights were at the lead apex, a set of whitish-green lights at one rear apex, and a set of bluish lights at the other. The youth's auto did not malfunction during the 10-15 second encounter. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ LOG # 891004 - Event 08/26/89, near Mineral Point, Pennsylvania, investigator Paul Kessler. At 5 PM, four teenage boys resting from a game of touch football spotted a shiny object in the sky. It proceeded closer at moderate speed, then twice reversed direction, halting momentarily each time. Fifteen minutes into the sighting, one of the boys ran home to beckon his parents outside. They were joined by several adult neighbors and watched for half an hour until the object left. It was described as a metalic sphere, at times displaying an orange-like coloration and appearing to rotate about a vertical axis. At it's closest point, the object had an apparent size of a quarter held at arm's length. Actual size was estimated as larger than the jetliner which at one point passed below the anomaly. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Report #: 204 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 01-11-1987 Subject: HARRISBURG, PA CASE TYPE: CE I DATE: 1ST WEEK OCTOBER, 1985 TIME: 0515 HOURS CFN#: 0326 DURATION: UNKNOWN WITNESSES: TWO SOURCE: UFO INFORMATION SERVICE -------------------------------------- Witness got up around 4:15 - 5:15 a.m. to go to restroom and saw an object over her home that covered five other homes as well. The object was huge, pure white and had no lights. The object was the shape of a saucer and rotating. Even though the object was bright (brighter than any object she had ever seen) it did not hurt her eyes to look at it. She had no fear and wanted to run out of her home and stand underneath the object but felt paralyzed. The object did return and her 12 year old son was able to see it. Since the incident she has had visions which she did not experience prior to the sighting of the object. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Report #: 206 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 01-12-1987 Subject: WASHINGTON, PA CASE TYPE: CE I DATE: 6 JANUARY 1987 TIME: 20:10 HOURS CFN#: 0328 DURATION: 12:MINUTES WITNESSES: TWO SOURCE: PASU - STAN GORDON, DIR. -------------------------------------------- Two witnesses reported observing a bright triangular object in the night sky. They said the object was gold in color, with three bright red lights non- blinking, one in each carner. The witnesses stated, that the object hovered for approximately ten minutes before moving off to the north. ( PASU ) is still working on this case and more information will be posted soon. For more info call 412-838-7768. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Report #: 211 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 01-24-1987 Subject: ARNOLD CITY, PA CASE TYPE: LRS DATE: 21 JANUARY 1987 TIME: 22:00 HOURS CFN#: 0333 DURATION: 3:MINUTES WITNESSES: UNKNOWN SOURCE: PASU - STAN GORDON 412-838-7768 --------------------------------------------- UFO Sighting report from PASU. AREA of report Arnold City, Fayette County,PA Witnesses reported observing a flying object. They described the object as very bright and said that the object was shaped like an oval. the witnesses said that the object had a red and blue glow to it. They also stated that the UFO or object had a tapered down tail another words a structure towards the back of the object. This case is being investigated by PASU. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Report #: 215 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 02-01-1987 Subject: SEWICKLEY HEIGHTS, PA CASE TYPE: CE I DATE: 21 JANUARY 1987 TIME: 2200 HOURS CFN#: 0337 DURATION: UNKNOWN WITNESSES: ONE SOURCE: PASU - DIR. STAN GORDON --------------------------------------- Ufo sighting reported 1-21-87. Object seen at 10 p.m. in Sewickley Heights, PA. in Allegheny Co. Object was seen about 50 feet above ground hovering near car. It was about four car lengths long, and wide as a single lane road. It was cigar shaped, with multiple lights and it made no sound. As it ascended into the sky it moved over four homes and then turned on a brilliant spotlight. Witness reports that she felt some mental communication with the object. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Report #: 220 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 04-02-1987 Subject: NEW STANTON, PA CASE TYPE: CE I DATE: 16 MARCH 1987 TIME: 17:36 HOURS CFN#: 0342 DURATION: UNKNOWN WITNESSES: MANY SOURCE: PASU ------------------------------------------ Witnesses reported observing two formations of Unidentified Flying Objects. Witnesses said at 7:36 P.M. Two formations of unidentified lighted objects were seen. Witnesses stated that they first sighted the unidentified objects at a high altitude then they said the objects started dropping to approximately 500 feet. No other information is known at this time. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Report #: 221 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 04-12-1987 Subject: LOYALHANNA, PA CASE TYPE: LRS DATE: 16 MARCH 1987 TIME: 23:15 HOURS CFN#: 0343 DURATION: UNKNOWN WITNESSES: ONE SOURCE: PASU -------------------------------------------- Witness reported observing a UFO Unidentified Flying Object through window. The witness stated that they saw a red flourescent elongated object. The witness said the object appeared to be approximately two feet in size or diameter. The witness stated that the object was seen moving very slow outside the window of a second floor. P.A.S.U. are now invesigating this case. New information on this case will be posted when it come in. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Report #: 222 From: UFO INFO SERVICE Date Sent: 04-12-1987 Subject: LATROBE, PA CASE TYPE: LRS DATE: 20 MARCH 1987 TIME: 18:30 HOURS CFN#: 0344 DURATION: 5:MINUTES WITNESSES: FOUR SOURCE: PASU -------------------------------------------- Four witnesses reported observing a UFO Unidentified Flying Object. Three witnesses including a pilot stated that they observed a solid black cigar shaped object. The witnesses said that the object hovered at a high altitude. They stated also that the object hovered in the same area for over five minutes. The total time of observation was five minutes. Also there were reports of strange underground sounds. This report is being invesigated by P.A.S.U. and new information on this case will be posted. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 05-26-91 21:53 From: Rev. Philosopher-King The Kecksburg UFO crash story was investigated by Robert Youbng in the Spring 1991 issue of the Skeptical Inquirer. Even the people portrayed in the "Unsolved Mysteries' program say the incident was a hoax, and no fewer than 50 local residents sent a petition to the program's producers to urge them not to air a false story. Jerome Miller, who in the show was portrayed as the owner of the home the militarty used as a command post, denies that their home was ever used for such a purpose. The story, essentially, is this; At 4:40 p.m. est, a fireball was seein in several states, and mention of it made it into several newspapers. It was also reported to have crashed in six widely separated locations-- one pilot claimed it went into Lake Erie, another report said it landed in Midland, Pennsylvania, and in Cleveland, Ohio, a woman claimed that a meteor landed in a nearby field. (Firemen did find several small brush fires, though.) In kecksburg, residents recall hearing about several roughly concurrent incidents, including dynamiting at a nearby quarry, a local plane crash, and sighting of this fireball. Captain Joseph Dussia of the Penn State Police Troop A, announced that after an all-night search, 'absolutely nothing had been found.' Now, enter Stan Gordon of the Pennsylvania Association for Study of the Unexplained, a long-time UFO buff. He's also the PA director of MUFON. Gordon put out an appeal to people who recalled the Keckburg fireball, and couple that with local evangelist Robert D. Barry's locally-televised UFO rantings, it's not surprising that a story about a UFO crash-- complete with 'recovered bodies,' a fact that seems to have originated with one of Barry's sermons-- would eventually be cobbled up. In other words; the Kecksburg incident was nothing. Source: "Old-Solved Mysteries': The Kecksburg Incident" by Robert Young. Skeptical Inquirer Spring 1991. P.S. How many people out there understand how this story'll keep getting repeated despite the fact that people ostensibly involved in the situation deny it ever happened? (P.S. I can also imagine some UFO fans, desperately wanting to believe the story, invoking the 'Government Coverup and Misinformation' ploy to dismiss these peoples' testimony." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- MUFONET-BBS Network - Mutual UFO Network ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Latrobe Bulletin Latrobe, Pa May 6, 1989 KECKSBURG CRASH CONTROVERSIAL By Kim Opatka Bulletin Staff Writer This final article in a six-part series on unidentified flying objects (UFOS) examines one of the most talked about and controversial incidents in the area, what has been termed a meteorite by some and an alien craft by others, which crashed in Kecksburg December 9, 1965. The object was first seen streaking across the sky, with thousands from Michigan to New York witnessing a brilliant ball of fire which left a smoke trail, visible for about 20 minutes after it passed. Many, including pilots who observed it, thought it was an aircraft which was on fire. Reports of debris from the object were made in many states, and an Ohio fire department was called to extinguish 10 small fires in an area where witnesses said they saw flaming fragments falling from the sky. Shock waves were reported by pilots, and a seismograph near Detroit recorded a shock, wrote investigator Stan Gordon, of Pennsylvania Association for the Study of the Unexplained (PASU) in a recent journal article. The crash has been a pet project of the Greensburg man "since the night it happened," he said, noting he is still trying to obtain information on the incident. Although the military eventually labeled the object a meteor, as did the Associated Press account published in The Bulletin the day after the crash, Gordon says recent evidence, including the discovery of a man who saw the object, supports the idea that the object was a true UFO. "I was a teen-ager then," said John (not his real name). "It was in the early part of December and there was a little snow and a little rain, and mud." He was called to the scene after the 4:44 p.m. crash as a fireman from the Latrobe area, to search for the crashed object. "I had seen a fiery object in the sky. I can't say exactly which direction but it was coming from the north. It was not too much longer and the fire whistle went off," he said. "I answered the call and was told they needed a search team because at the time they believed it was a downed aircraft. And I thought, 'My God, this is what I have just seen'." When firemen arrived at the Kecksburg Fire Hall, maps were reviewed and groups were given sections to search. "It was getting semi-dusk and we had flashlights. We were taken in the back of a truck and dropped off and told to go 'this way' which we did. I was not on the initial contact team. Another team found the object. "It was definitely, unequivocally, positively, absolutely no aircraft, plane, helicopter or rocket, at least not to my knowledge. It was in an area that was part field and part woods and we went down to investigate," he said. "We found the object had crashed at a 30 to 40 degree angle, and had broken off numerous tree branches in its impact path. My initial reaction was 'This is no airplane.' I observed no shrapnel, no breaking up of the fuselage. It was one solid piece, no doors, no windows. "Preliminary searches found no bodies or casualties. It was shaped like an acorn, laying on its side, like the acorn nut is in its shell when it's on a tree," he explained. "I've been a machinist for 24 years and I've worked with a tremendous amount of different metals, and I have never seen any type of metal that looked even close to that." John said the object was not broken, "not even cracked, just dented a bit. It did not give off smoke, steam or vapors, at least none that we could see." Reports from neighbors in the area said it had given off a faint trail of blue smoke, which disappeared after the crash. He described the portion visible as between eight and 10 feet long, six and seven feet across, and said a man of average height would probably have had little trouble standing up inside it. The crater it plowed into the ground was "rectangular in shape." John said the state police were there and the area was soon quarantined. "They drove us out. It was late at night when we finally got back to the fire hall and it had been completely taken over by the military. They were carrying in large pieces of equipment, radios and such, and they had armed guards posted outside so nobody could get in or out. The firemen were thrown out. We weren't even allowed in to use the bathroom. "The military had control of the whole operation," John recalled. "After a while we saw a flat bed truck come by with some other military equipment, a crane or something. "It was not too much longer, an hour, an hour and a half, when the trucks came back and there was a large object on the back of the flat bed, covered by a tarp, with military escorts front and back. I got the feeling that if you had stepped on the road you were dead meat. They weren't stopping for anything." Although the object was later said to be a meteorite, John doesn't buy that explanation. "It had writing on it, not like your average writing, but more like ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics. It had sort of a bumper on it, like a ribbon about six to 10 inches wide, and it stood out. It was elliptical the whole way around and the writing was on this bumper. It's nothing like I've ever seen, and I'm an avid reader. I read a lot of books on Egypt, the Incas, Peruvians, Russians and I've never to this day come across anything that looked like that." John notes that later it was denied that the object was even a meteorite, and the military "denied they were even in the area. But I know there were Air Force and Army personnel involved. It was like they just came out of the woodwork." Gordon's research has revealed that one of the military groups involved was most likely to be the 662nd Radar Squadron, based at the Oakdale Armory, located near Greater Pittsburgh International Airport. The squadron was found to be under the control of the Aerospace Defense Command, and attempts to get information on the Kecksburg crash, through the Freedom of Information Act, have not provided much to go on. One response said there had been no record of the squadron being activated on that date, Gordon said, wondering how so much equipment and personnel could be activated while the monthly report showed no entry on Dec. 9. Through his research, Gordon says he knows the Air Force was still investigating UFO cases at the public level then, and that it was apparently the Project Blue Book staff which contacted the 662nd squadron. Subsequent reports have led him to theorize that even the Project Blue Book staff was not made aware of objects which could "affect national security," and that some intelligence teams investigated crashes of "foreign space vehicles." Another strange occurrence that night, Gordon said, was reports by some civilians that radiation was released. He explained that some children playing in the area had reportedly been told by military personnel that that was a possibility, and men in decontamination suits were allegedly seen at the site later the next day. Although he has considered the possibility that the object could have been space debris or a test device, Gordon says documents and evidence obtained in the last few years lead more in the direction of it being a "true UFO." John concurs. "It was definitely not of this planet. At the time I was a skeptical teen, but when you see something like that you don't forget it. When you get called out like that from the fire department you think you're going out looking for an aircraft of some sort, not a UFO. "I'll never forget it. I still want to know what the hell it was." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- KECKSBURG, Pa. -- No kidding, there's a UFO resting atop the Kecksburg Fire Department Building in Westmoreland County. Actually, it's a reasonable facsimile of an object alleged to have cut across the skies and paid a visit in the area 25 years ago. The NBC television network donated the 300-pound metallic model shaped like a huge acorn. It was used to tape the network's "Unsolved Mysteries" show this past summer. As legend, myth and embellishment have it, the UFO streaked across the Kecksburg sky on Dec. 7, 1965, landed and was carted away by the government. Many in the Kecksburg area call the UFO story a hoax and protested the taping of the show. Kecksburg firefighters had the UFO mounted atop their fire station after approving the move last month. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 07-26-91 23:06 From: William Miller Subj: UFO's - Western PA. I left a message a few month's ago but was unable to see if there was a reply (I work for the government - frequent DC trips). I have been embarking on some personal research into some of the strange things that happen here in Western Pennsylvania. This area is host to some BIZARRE goings on, some of which has happened to some of my friends and family members. I grew up about 4 miles away from the Kecksburg Acorn (Unsolved Mysteries). I've had some of the most "straight-up" people I know tell me of UFO encounters. And although I have not experienced these things myself, I have seen the after effects, some of which CAN NOT be hoaxed, or explained away (i.e. animal reactions). I have seen my brother, in stark terror, run right through Russian Olive bushes (the type with 2 inch thorns), fall flat on his face on ice, hit the house and refuse to go out for 2 days. The thing is, he beat my SISTER who had a head start; she saw it first! What I am interested in is anybody who might have been in the area of Erie on July 29, 1966. My family lived there at the time when a UFO was reported. So was a patch of forest that was burnt bare with the trees snapped back at the circumference, and a being that was seen by at least 2 people walk into the water. This case made Project Blue Book, and is listed as unsolved. We went to the site immediately, we lived 1.5 miles away, and the Air Force was all over that place. They chased us away, right after my aunt stepped in a plaster cast of a footprint; boy were they p___ed. It was a really frightening event, and I would like to get more details it. I have a few newspaper clips, but officially, it is documented like a routine traffic accident. Thanks, and I'll keep watching this echo for a reply...... ---- EOF ---- Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!rpi!masscomp!peora!tous!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: INFO: Soviet UFO Sightings Message-ID: <1991Sep30.023334.26468@bilver.uucp> Date: 30 Sep 91 02:33:34 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 916 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2223 alt.conspiracy:7729 sci.skeptic:15716 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This information is presented for your perusal and is a continuation of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-) As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups exclusively, comments to me should be directed to dona@bilver.uucp in mail. --------------------------------------------------------------------- UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECTS WATCHED BY HUNDREDS NEAR MOSCOW. 24/4 TASS 24 MOSCOW APRIL 15 TASS -- THE NEWSPAPER RABOCHAYA TRIBUNA PUBLISHED A REPORT TODAY SAYING STRANGE THINGS HAVE BEEN HAPPENING IN THE AREA OF THE YAROSLAVL HIGHWAY 47 KILOMETERS OUTSIDE MOSCOW. ON SEVERAL NIGHTS SINCE MARCH 12, LARGE LUMINESCENT DISKS AND SPHERES HAVE BEEN OBSERVED TO APPEAR IN THE SKY ABOVE THE AREA. THEY ARE SOON REPLACED BY THREE GROUPS OF OBJECTS, SOME RESEMBLE PINEAPPLES, MEASURING ABOUT SIX METERS IN LENGTH AND FEATURING TYPICAL PINEAPPLE PATTERNS ALONG THEIR BODIES. OTHERS RESEMBLE PYRAMIDAL MILK CONTAINERS, STILL OTHERS UPTURNED SOURCES. THESE OBJECTS EMIT LIGHT AND WHEN LUMINESCENCE SUBSIDES, MULTI-COLOURED LIGHTS CONTINUE TO FLICKER AND GLISTEN. THEY CAN BE SEEN MOVING VERY FAST OR STOPPING AND CHANGING DIRECTION OF FLIGHT VERY ABRUPTLY. NO SOUND ACCOMPANIES THE MOVEMENTS -- NEITHER BUZZING NOR WHINING. AT TIMES, A LUMINESCENT CLOUD RISES ABOVE THE ROADSIDE FOREST. LOCAL INHABITANTS, ARMED WITH BINOCULARS, ARE REPORTED TO HAVE SPENT NIGHTS ON TOP OF THIR HOUSES TO WATCH, THE NEWSPAPER SAYS. SEVERAL HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE HAVE SEEN THE UFOS. ALL HAVE DESCRIBED THE OBJECTS IN SIMILAR TERMS. ITEM ENDS ------------------------------------------------------------------------ .UFO CURES HYPERTENSION -- SOVIET DOCTORS WONDER. 27/4 TASS 35 MOSCOW APRIL 27 TASS - DESPITE ALL THE HOOPLA ABOUT FLYING SAUCERS, THEY MAY BE A GOOD THING AFTER ALL, OR SO IT SEEMS FROM THE LATEST REPORT OF A UFO SIGHTING IN TODAYS TRUD NEWSPAPER. A WOMAN IN THE CITY OF YOSHKAR-OLA IN MARI AUTONOMOUS REPUBLIC, SENT HER SON TO BED, LOOKED THROUGH A WINDOW AND SAW A BALL OF FIRE FLOATING IN THE SKY OUTSIDE, THE NEWSPAPER REPORTS. SUDDENLY, THE UFO BEAMED A BRIGHT RAY AT THE WOMAN. THE LIGHT WAS VERY MUCH LIKE A SEARCHLIGHT AND EMANATED FROM THE LOWER PART OF THE BALL, IT SAYS. SIMULTANEOUSLY, SHE HEARD A SOUND LIKE THAT OF A CHAINSAW. THE WOMAN WAS PARALYSED BY FEAR AND CLOSED THE WINDOW. THE BALL SLOWLY BEGAN MOVING AWAY AND SOON DISAPPEARED. IN THE MORNING, THE WOMAN, WHO SUFFERED FROM HIGH BLOOD PRESSURE, FELT A SUDDEN SURGE OF ENERGY. SHE HOWEVER DECIDED TO CALL ON LOCAL DOCTORS FOR A CHECK-UP. DOCTORS FOUND NOTHING WRONG WITH HER, BUT SAID THAT HER BLOOD PRESSURE HAD RETURNED TO NORMAL. ITEM ENDS ---------------------------------------------------------------------- UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECTS WATCHED BY HUNDREDS NEAR MOSCOW. 24/4 TASS 24 MOSCOW APRIL 15 TASS -- THE NEWSPAPER RABOCHAYA TRIBUNA PUBLISHED A REPORT TODAY SAYING STRANGE THINGS HAVE BEEN HAPPENING IN THE AREA OF THE YAROSLAVL HIGHWAY 47 KILOMETERS OUTSIDE MOSCOW. ON SEVERAL NIGHTS SINCE MARCH 12, LARGE LUMINESCENT DISKS AND SPHERES HAVE BEEN OBSERVED TO APPEAR IN THE SKY ABOVE THE AREA. THEY ARE SOON REPLACED BY THREE GROUPS OF OBJECTS, SOME RESEMBLE PINEAPPLES, MEASURING ABOUT SIX METERS IN LENGTH AND FEATURING TYPICAL PINEAPPLE PATTERNS ALONG THEIR BODIES. OTHERS RESEMBLE PYRAMIDAL MILK CONTAINERS, STILL OTHERS UPTURNED SOURCES. THESE OBJECTS EMIT LIGHT, AND HEN LUMINESCENCE SUBSIDES, MULTI-COLOURED LIGHTS CONTINUE TO FLICKER AND GLISTEN. THEY CAN BE SEEN MOVING VERY FAST OR STOPPING AND CHANGING DIRECTION OF FLIGHT VERY ABRUPTLY. NO SOUND ACCOMPANIES THE MOVEMENTS -- NEITHER BUZZING NOR WHINING. AT TIMES, A LUMINESCENT CLOUD RISES ABOVE THE ROADSIDE FOREST. LOCAL INHABITANTS, ARMED WITH BINOCULARS, ARE REPORTED TO HAVE SPENT NIGHTS ON TOP OF THIR HOUSES TO WATCH, THE NEWSPAPER SAYS. SEVERAL HUNDREDS OF PEOPLE HAVE SEEN THE UFOS. ALL HAVE DESCRIBED THE OBJECTS IN SIMILAR TERMS. ITEM ENDS ----------------------------------------------------------------------- =START= XMT: 19:32 Mon Oct 09 EXP: 19:00 Tue Oct 10 SOVIETS REPORT SCIENTIFIC CONFIRMATION OF RECENT UFO LANDING MOSCOW (OCT. 9) UPI - The official Soviet news agency Tass reported Monday that a flying saucer landed in a Russian city recently, and its occupants, tiny-headed aliens up to 13 feet tall, frightened residents during a stroll through a park. The agency said scientists confirmed the landing and extravehicular activity in Voronezh, a city of about 780,000 people 300 miles south of Moscow, and noted that the aliens, who were escorted by a robot during their ''promenade around the park,'' left behind two chunks of rock never before found on Earth. ''A large shining disk was seen hovering above the park,'' Tass said. ''It then landed, a hatch opened, and one, two or three creatures similar to humans and a small robot came out. The aliens were 3 or even 4 meters high (10 to 13 feet), but with very small heads, witnesses say. ''They walked near the disc and then disappeared inside,'' the official news agency said. ''Onlookers were overwhelmed by a fear that lasted for several days.'' Tass added, ''Scientists have confirmed that an unidentified flying object recently landed in a park in the Russian city of Voronezh,'' Tass said. ''They have also identified the landing site and found traces of aliens who made a short promenade around the park. ''The aliens visited the place at least three times after dark, local residents report,'' Tass said. Tass quoted Genrikh Silanov, head of the Voronezh Geophysical Laboratory, as saying his scientists identified the landing site by using a technique called ''biolocation.'' The term was not described. Silanov said in an interview with Tass that the unidentified flying object left clear marks in the park. ''We detected a circle 20 meters (65 feet) in diameter,'' he said. ''Four dents 4 to 5 centimeters (1.6 to 2 inches) deep, each with a diameter of 14 to 16 centimeters (5.5 to 6.3 inches), were clearly visible. ''We also found two mysterious pieces of rock,'' Silanov said. ''At first glance they looked like sandstone of a deep-red color. But mineralogical analysis has shown that the substance cannot be found on earth.'' The scientists acknowledged that ''additional tests are needed to reach a more definite conclusion.'' Tass said that ''the route along which the aliens walked as described by witnesses and the route established scientifically coincided.'' =END= --------------------------------------------------------------------------- =START= XMT: 08:44 Tue Oct 10 EXP: 09:00 Wed Oct 11 SOVIET REPORTER CHANGES HIS STORY ON UFO REPORT MOSCOW (OCT. 10) UPI - A correspondent of the Tass news agency who wrote that an unidentified flying object landed in the city of Voronezh said Tuesday he did not see the landing and interviewed ''about 10'' youngsters as the source of his report. The report by correspondent Vladimir Lebedev, transmitted by the official Tass agency on Monday, said tiny-headed aliens up to 13-feet tall terrified the residents of Voronezh when they and a robot escort took nighttime strolls through a park after landing in their UFO. Lebedev, 59, a 20-year Tass veteran, told United Press International that he heard of three landings in September with the last on Sept. 27 in the city about 300 miles south of Moscow. Asked whether he had seen any of the landings, he said, ''No,'' and when asked how he confirmed the story, he said that he spoke to ''about 10 youngsters aged 12 to 13.'' ''No more were needed,'' he said. Asked whether he believed in the story, Lebedev said, ''One wants to believe.'' The report about the landing of a UFO is just one of a number of such recent stories about sightings, but unlike the others the supposed Voronezh sighting has captured the imagination of the country. As the perestroika reform program is shaking the foundations of Soviet society, people looking for something to believe in have gone in big for mysticism, and the current rage is healing seances. One such mystic, Anatoliy Kashpirovsky, appears regularly on television. Another, who said he could stop trains, was recently killed when his attempt failed. A Tuesday morning television show, a regular program called ''120 Minutes '' devoted a good portion to the UFO saga with interviews of inhabitants of the ancient Russian city with a population of 86,000. An editor at Soviet state television said the news program Vremya would show footage from Voronezh Tuesday night if they received it in time. Another newspaper, Sovetskaya Kultura, reported Tuesday that the UFO landed on Sept. 27, frightening youngsters who were playing football. But Lebedev, the Tass correspondent, though sticking to his story, said there might have been some make-believe. ''I think there is a certain portion of truth, but it is not excluded that there is also fantasizing,'' he said. Asked to explain, he said, ''mature people may have added certain things.'' Lebedev said he originally wrote the dispatch on Oct. 4 and then again Oct. 9 when it was finally used by the foreign service of Tass. He said he believed that ''something had happened,'' because otherwise the youngsters would not have been so frightened. He said there were lively discussions in schools Tuesday in Voronezh about the UFO, but otherwise the city was normal. ''Something happened here,'' he said. Tass Monday said scientists confirmed the landing of a UFO in Voronezh, where they said aliens left behind two chunks of rock never before found on earth. ''Scientists have confirmed that an unidentified flying object recently landed in a park in the Russian city of Voronezh,'' the Tass dispatch said. ''They have also identified the landing site and found traces of aliens who made a short promenade around the park. The aliens visited the place at least three times after dark, local residents report.'' Tass quoted Genrikh Silanov, head of the Voronezh Geophysical Laboratory, as saying his scientists identified the landing site by using a technique called ''biolocation.'' ''A large shining disk was seen hovering above the park,'' Tass said. ''It then landed, a hatch opened, and one, two or three creatures similar to humans and a small robot came out. The aliens were 3 or even 4 meters high (10-13 feet), but with very small heads, witnesses said. They walked near the disc and then disappeared inside. Onlookers were overwhelmed by a fear that lasted for several days.'' Silanov said the aliens' vehicle left clear marks in the park. ''We detected a circle 65 feet in diameter,'' he said. ''Four dents 1.6-2 inches deep, each with a diameter of 5.5-6.3 inches, were clearly visible.'' =END= --------------------------------------------------------------------------- =START= XMT: 12:19 Sun Oct 15 EXP: 12:00 Wed Oct 18 SOVIET UFO SIGHTINGS LINKED TO RELIGIOUS BELIEF, ESCAPISM VORONEZH, Soviet Union (OCT. 15) REUTER - A rash of UFO sightings in the Soviet Union has much more to do with religious belief, escapism and a newspaper circulation war than with visitors from other planets. For the past week, Soviet newspapers have entertained the public with stories about contacts with aliens in spaceships, concentrating on an alleged landing in September by a UFO (unidentified flying object) in this central Russian city. The phenomenon is not new -- the press had earlier carried stories of extra-terrestrial activity -- but public interest is keen despite the fact that no evidence has emerged to back up the stories other than the statements of a few children. ''Much of it has to do with the tremendous upsurge in religion over the past few years. Russians are by nature deeply religious people and are now desperately looking for something to believe in,'' said one Western diplomat in Moscow. Religious belief was heavily discouraged during the rule of Soviet dictator Josef Stalin and only really started to recover after Mikhail Gorbachev came to power and encouraged more freedom of thought. ''I believe the spaceship was a message from Jesus. He was telling us we have to be as innocent as children, which is why only the young saw the spaceship land,'' said Alexander Mosolov, a member of the local team investigating the Voronezh incident. The popularity of UFO stories has been matched by the rise to fame of television faith healers such as Anatoly Kashpirovsky and Alan Chumak, both of whom regularly draw huge audiences to their shows. ''Don't forget that in many ways this is a Middle Ages culture. People are God-fearing, gullible and very, very superstitious. There has always been a belief in the occult here,'' said a Soviet academic. Some analysts say Gorbachev's policy of glasnost, or openness in the press has provided particularly fertile ground for stories of visits from other planets. The policy has encouraged the press to discuss many previously taboo subjects, such as Stalin's reign of terror in the 1930s. ''The trouble is that they're running out of fascinating revelations from the past. People know that Stalin was a bad man, but even Lenin had his problems. They need new sensational discoveries and UFOs fit the bill perfectly,'' one diplomat said. The rush for exclusive stories has also resulted in a circulation war using tactics that would impress even the hardest of Western popular press editors. In August, Moscow's Vechernyaya Moskva daily said Chumak would bless the subscription coupon in its Sept. 1 issue, guaranteeing a happy life and other wonderful benefits to those who subscribed using the coupon. Anxious readers mobbed the capital's newspaper vendors, and on the black market copies of the issue fetched up to 20 times their face value. The chaotic state of the nation's economy has encouraged many Soviet citizens to revel in stories of UFO visits, temporarily forgetting that the shelves in most stores are practically empty. ''Almost all the news here is very depressing -- lack of food, AIDS, corruption and rocketing crime. Flying saucers take people's minds off everyday life. They're good fun,'' said a Soviet journalist in Voronezh. Virtually everyone questioned here claims to know of someone who has seen a spaceship or aliens at some stage in the past. ''Rumors are particuarly powerful here. Because the state controls the media, rumors are the quickest way of transmitting unofficial news. Unless they are quickly quashed, people tend to assume they are true'' said a Soviet physicist. The Communist Party daily Pravda poked fun Sunday at the newspaper stories about alien landings in a spoof headlined ''Aliens in Joytown.'' =END= --------------------------------------------------------------------------- =START= XMT: 10:55 Fri Nov 09 EXP: 11:00 Sat Nov 10 FRENCH SPACE AGENCY SAYS UFO'S WERE SOVIET ROCKET PARTS TOULOUSE, FRANCE (NOV. 9) REUTER - The French space agency said on Friday mysterious lights seen in the sky above five European countries were caused by part of a Soviet space rocket re-entering the atmosphere. ''The phenomenom has been identified as the third stage of a Soviet booster rocket used on October 3 to launch into orbit a Gorizont-21 type telecommunications satellite,'' the agency said. Thousands of people in France, Belgium, Germany, Switzerland and Italy reported seeing an illuminated form gliding silently across the sky shortly after 1800 GMT on Monday evening. The sightings aroused speculation about a visit to earth by Unidentified Flying Objects (UFO's) from outer space. But the French National Center for Space Studies (CNES) said in a statement that it concluded the lights were caused by the re-entry of a piece of Soviet space junk. ''In its final phase of disintegration, the rocket part crossed France on a Pau to Strasbourg orbit (southwest to east),'' CNES said. ''Exceptionally clear weather conditions assisted the observation of its re-entry into the atmosphere,'' it added. =END= ------------------------------------------------------------------- FOREIGN NEWS Tribune, New York, NY- June 14,1990 CR: A. Huneeus [Reprinted with permission] J. ANTONIO HUNEEUS/ SCIENCE FRONTIERS GREAT SOVIET UFO FLAP OF 1989 CENTERS ON DALNEGORSK CRASH First in a two-part series Several months ago we reported in this column about the well-publicized series of bizarre reports of UFO landings and close encounters with giant aliens in the Russian city of Voronezh, as well as other cases obtained from interviews with Soviet researchers during last fall's International UFO Congress in Frankfurt, Germany. I have obtained a large amount of Soviet UFO data since then from a variety of sources both in the Soviet Union and the United States. I recently completed a lengthy and detailed paper entitled, Red Skies: The Great 1989 UFO Wave In the USSR, to be included in the 1989 Symposium Proceedings of the Mutual UFO Network(MUFON), the world's largest research organization in this field, which will take place next month in Pensacola, Florida. We will publish in this series selected excerpts which contain interesting physical and military evidence. The first one deals with the enigmatic report of the crash of an unknown object in the city of Dalnegorsk on the Pacific coast of the Soviet Union, while the following week we'll report on a recent radar-visual UFO incident which resulted in a military scramble alert by Soviet Air Defense forces. A detailed account of the series of complex UFO events registered in the city of Dalnegorsk during the past four years goes beyond the scope of this article. Nevertheless, the Dalnegorsk flap should be discussed because it contains some of the most extraordinary physical evidence collected so far anywhere in the world, and also because UFO sightings continue to be reported in this area to this day. Thanks to the assistance of Major (Ret.) Colman won Deviczky, director of the Queens-based ICUFON research group who has extensive contacts in the Soviet Union, this writer has obtained several reports of the Dalnegorsk incidents prepared by one of its principal investigatiors, Valeri Dvuzhilny, head of the Far Eastern Commission on Anomalous Phenomena. Even though the Commission has recorded numerous cases going back to the 1970', it seems the most inportant incident so far was the crash of an unknown object on Dalnegorsk Hill 611 on January 29, 1986, at 7:55 p.m. On that date, according to one of the reports by Dvuzhilny,"residents of the settlements observed a reddish-orange sphere the size of a half moon, which flew from the southwest at 260 degrees. Its altitude was 700-8-- meters. The flight was parallel to the wurface of the Earth, without the angles which are characteristic for meteorites. The witnesses heard absolutely no noises. The calculated speed by chronometer was 15 meters per second. There was no change of direction or of altitude." The object then approached the Izvesrkovaya mountain, or Hill611, which has an elevation of 600 meters and is located at the center of the town. "The object made a dive and went at an angle of 60-70 degrees on the cliff ledge, where it 'fell' and burned for one hour," continues the report. "Some of the witnesses affirm that it rose and lowered itself six times, and that its light was intensified during its rise and weakened during its lowering." Dvuzhilny and his team arrived on the scene February 3, finding a number of physical traces, which included lead and iron balls, bits of glass, a fine mesh or netting, traces of high temperature activity, magnetic anomalies and damage to nearby trees and stumps. The materials have been analyzed by several laboratories from three Soviet academic centers and 11 research institutes. The results, however, have proven to be highly enigmatic, leading Dvuzhilny and other scientists to conclude that the Dalnegorsk object was probably an artificial space probe of non-terestrial origin. According to one report published in the newspaper Socialist Industry, "In the scales [or mesh], almost all the elements of the entire periodic table were found." Spectral analysis of the lead balls, for instance, showed that besides lead, these contained silicon (20 percent), aluminum(10 percent), iron(15 percent), zinc(1.5percent), titanium(2 percent), magnesium(1 percent), and silver(2percent), as well as minute portions of copper, lantanium, praseodymium, calcium, sodium, vanadium, cerium, chrome, cobalt, nickel, and molybdenum. The scales or mesh reacted in a very strange manner during the laboratory analysis. The Socialist Industry report said one of the scientists, A. Makeev, "presented the roentgenological structural analysis and showed that from one scale, after melting it in a vacuum, all of a sudden gold, silver, and nickel disappeared. But there appeared alpha-titanium and molybdenum. In another scale, the metals did not appear at all. And for some reason, after the heating, there appeared beryllium sulphide." There were still further surprises, such as "six areas of magnetized silica rock" (silica is a nonmagnetic material) found on the site. This and other results were published by A. Petukhov and T. Faminskaya, members of the Council of Scientific and Engineering Societies' Commission on Paranormal Events. "Vivid interest was also evoked by the mesh, a carbon-based composite of unknown origin," wrote Petukhov and Faminskaya. "The specimen was found to include quartz filaments 17 microns thick, and golden wires inside each filament." Other anomalous effects included the blackened photos of Hill 611 taken by the researchers, and the biological effects on the researchers themselves. According to Petukhov and Faminskaya, "the researchers working at the site showed changes in their blood (a reduced count of leucocytes and platelets, changes in the structure of erythrocytes) and sensory disturbances." Dvuzhilny described in more detail the medical investigation involving five researchers who spent considerable time at Hill 611, and a control group. All of this led some investigators to conclude that something alien had indeed crashed at Hill 611 V. Vysotsky, Doctor of Chemistry from Vlakivostok, stated: "Undoubtedly, this is a high-technology product and not a thing of natural or terestrial origin." Dvuzhilny proposed that it was "an automatic scout probe" of alien origin, and rejected the altermative hypothesis that it could have been a natural plasmoid. This hypothesis was proposed by a candidate of geological-mineralogical science, V.N. Salnikov. It was summarized by Yuri Rylkin, a phycisist with the Tomsk Poltechnical Institure, in a paper presented at the International UFO Congress in Frankfut in October of 1989. "The Dalnegorsk object," wrote Rylkin, "represents a plasma formation on the base of electromagnetical structure, called plasmoid, whose trajectory passed over geological breaking and parallel to high-voltage electrotransmission line. It is supposed that this plasmoid absorbed selectively some chemical elements, for example, the noble and rare metals. As Salnikov considers, such formations may be formed by litospherical waveguides, or may appear in anomalous stressed geophysical fields mear geological breakings." We'll have more to say about these so-called plasmoids in this series' second part. Still another hypothesis was offered by Yuri Platov, a senior researcher with the Institute if Earth Magnetism, Ionesphere and Radiowave Propagation of the USSR Academy of Sciences and a noted UFO skeptic. Platov maintains that the Dalnegorsk phenomenon "in reality was connected with the conduct of a technical experiment." I have seen no supportive evidence to back that assertion, however. Dvuzhilny responds that there were no rocket launches and no civilian or military traffic over Dalnegorsk on that night. SIGHTINGS CONTINUE Regardless of its ultimate origin, the crash on Hill 611 was only the beginning of an intense UFO flap in Dalnegorsk that continues to this day. For instance, another report by Dvuzhilny indicat6es "on February 6, 1986, eight days after the UFO crash, there appeared from the north two yellow globes at 8:30 p.m. They approached the crash spot, made four circles over it and disappeared with a flash." By and large, however, the largest display of UFOs in the Dalnegorsk and Primorye areas occurred on the night of NOv. 28,1987. Again, according to one of Dvulzhiny's reports, "on Saturday November 28, 1987, 33 UFOs were flying at a low height over the Eastern coast of Primorye. Their flights took place between 9:10 pm and midnight. They were of different shape: cylinders, cigars, globes. They were flying over five regions and twelve settlements. None of the witnesses claimed they had seen UFOs. They thought they saw aircraft crashing. All were wurprised to hear no noise." Inquiries made by Dvuzhilny showed there had been no flights of civil or military aircraft at that time, and that no carrier-rockets had been launched from Soviet cosmodromes. Moreover, continued Dvuzhilny, "the objects observed had nothing in common with the effects of rocket launching that are quite different. They were not like fireballs, ball lightning or plasmoids." Further on, Dvuzhilny added that "out of the 33 UFOs, 13 flew over Dalnegorsk." There were over 100 vitnesses, including military personnel, militia (police), border guards and sailors, as well as all kinds of civilian workers, who were questioned by the Far Eastern Commission. Finally, reports Dvuzhilny, "those objects caused a two minute cutting-off of HF [high frequency] circuits of TV, telegraph and other appliances. Computers were cut off, their programs spoiled. All that was due to powerful electromagnetic fields of UFOs (cover, engines) reaching hundreds and thousamds of KWs." Many other sightings have occurred in Dalnegorsk. According to the Far Eastern Commission, 45 UFOs were registered in 1987, 15 in 1988, 32 in 1989 (up to the month of July). Nor have the sightings been restricted to Dalnegorsk alone. Other cases have been reported near the larger city of Vladivostok. These include a close encounter involving two separate cars on September 17, 1988, where one of the drivers seemed to lose control of his car; and a second, undated, event reported by the Krasnoye Znamia (Red Banner) newspaper, about a whole section of Vladivostok being illuminated between 2 and 4 a. m. by a light beam from an unseen source. Because of the late hour, only a few people who were not asleep observed the phenomenon. Interestingly, similar occurrences of an unknown light beam illuminating a city have been reported a few times in the city of Arica in the northern tip of Chile. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Tribune, New York, NY - June 21, 1990 CR: A. Huneeus {Reprinted with permission} ANTONIO HUNEEUS/SCIENCE FRONTIERS SOVIET PRESS AIRS STARTLING UFO EVIDENCE FROM MILITARY SOURCES Second in a two-part series. Last week we revealed how the Soviet Union is experiencing an intense UFO wave and how, due to glasnost, what was once a forbidden subject is now covered in detail by the Soviet press. Even cases involving the Soviet military are now reaching the public. On Sept. 30, 1989, the newspaper Sotsiahisticheskaya Industriya (Socialist Industry) quoted Anatoliy Listratov, chairman of the anomalous phenomena section of the All-Union Astronomical and Geodesic Society, that "Soviet military officers and pilots had recently started providing some documentation on UFO sightings." That and similar articles were translated by the U.S. government's Foreign /broadcast Information Service (FBIS).An FBIS "Foreign Press Note" entitled "USSR: Media Report Multitude of UFO Sightings" was dated Nov. 22, 1989. The article described one of the most serious UFO injury cases ever reported, involving the scramble of two Soviet jets over the city of Borisov in Byelorussia: "The crews of two Soviet aircraft reported seeing a large flying disk in their vicinity with five beams of lights enamating from it: three beams were directed toward the ground and two were projected upward when the object was first sighted. The ground controller instructed one of the planes to alter its course and approach the object, at which point the disk flew to the same level and aimed one of its beams at the approaching Soviet plane, illuminating the cockpit." The pilot's log stated, "At this time, the copilot was at the controls. He observed the maneuver that the object had just carried out and was able to raise his hand to shield himself from the unbearable light. The aircraft commander was resting in the adjoining seat, and a bright ray of light, projecting a spot with a diameter of 20 centimeters, passed across his body. Both pilots felt heat." One Injured, Another Dead Both crewmen later became "invalids," the article said. "The copilot was forced to leave his job due to a sudden deterioration in his health, including the onset of sudden prolonged periods of 'loss of consciousness.' The aircraft commander died within a few months. The cause of death was listed as 'cancer' and 'injury to the organism as a result of radiation from an unidentified flying object' was listed as a contributing factor on the official medical record in the hospital where the commander died." This is not the only military UFO incident to be reported in the Soviet press. In an unprecedented statement published in Rabochaya Tribuna on April 19, General of Aviation Igor Maltsev, chief of the Main Staff of Air Defense Forces, openly discussed a radar-visual and jet scramble incident on the Pereslavl-Zalesskiy region, east of Moscow, on the night of March 21. This article was also translated by FBIS and leaked to some American ufologists. We have also secured a Russian copy of the article entitled "OFOs on Air Defense Radars." Due to its importance we shall quote Gen. Maltsev's statement in full. He said: "I am not a specialist on UFOs and therefore I can only correlate the data and express my own supposition. According to the evidence of these eyewitnesses, the UFO is a disk with a diameter from 100 to 200 meters. Two pulsating lights were positioned on its sides. When the object flew in a horizontal plane the line of the lights was parallel to the horizon. During vertical movement it rotated and was perpendicular to the gorund. Moreover, the object rotated around its axis and performed an 'S-turn' flight both in the horizontal and vertical planes. Next, the UFO hovered over the ground and then flew with a speed exceeding that of the modern jet fighter by 2 or 3 times. All of the observers moticed that the flight speed was directly related to the flashing of the side lights: the more often they flashed, the higher the speed. "The objects flew at altitudes ranging from 1,000 to 7,000 meters. The movement of the UFOs was not accompanied by sound of any kind and was distinguished by its startling maneuverability. It seemed the UFOs were completely devoid of intertia. In other words, they had somehow 'come to terms' with gravity. At the present time, terrestrial machines could hardly have any such capabilities. The object was observed as a 'pip' from a radar target on the screens of aircraft radar sights and on the screens of several electronic surveillance sub-units. One station did not establish an ovservation." Rabochaya Tribuna also said unit commanders compiled "more than 100 visual observations" and passed them on to Gen. Maltsev. Lt. Col. A.A. Semenchenko "received the command to go on an alert exercise" at 21:38 hours. "I received my task of detecting and identifying a target at an altitude of 2000 meters," he reported. He established visual contact, although "the target did not respond to the 'identify, friend or die,' request." Considering the Borisov incident, it is interesting to note his comment, "with the permission of the command post, I locked my sights onto the radiation after checking to be sure that the weaponry was switched off." The paper also published the testimonies of four captains and a radar post as well as a photograph taken of the Yaroslavskiy Highway. A 'Victory' for UFO Buffs The newspaper editors commented, "UFO enthusiasts can celebrate a victory. It is the first time that the military so openly and impressively witness on behalf of 'flying saucers.' Especially pleasing is the fact that the disclosure was made by air defense representatives, people who possess unique technical possibilities for observations. Maybe now they will disclose past secrets, legends of which are very popular. Let us hope that the present publication is a good occasion for further disclosures." The editors went on to say that these incidents "demolish a hypothesis which relate UFOs to atmospheric phenomena." This is particularly interesting since in June of 1989, the official Soviet Military Review published an article on "UFOs and Security," which concluded that UFOs were most likely related to "certain plasma formations." ---------------------------------------------------------------- Arizona Republic, Phoenix, AZ-July 15, 1990 CR: D. Kettles SOVIET DEFENSE UNIT SCRAMBLES TO CHECK SIGHTINGS OF UFOS Pilots, radar spot 'flying saucers' By David Wood Newhouse News Service WASHINGTON-The Cold War may be over, but the Soviet Union's military air defenses are struggling with a new threat: an apparent invasion by flying saucers. Dozens of sightings of unidentified flying objects-disk-shaped spacecraft with blinking lights and performing impossibly high-speed maneuvers-have been recounted in the past few months, including eyewitness reports from Soviet interceptor pilots that reportedly have been corroborated by surveillance radar. "I am not a specialist on UFOs, and, therefore, I can only correlate the data and express my own supposition," said Gen. Igor Maltsev, chief of the main staff of the Air Defense Forces. And what is Maltsev's supposition? That UFOs exist and are piloted by extraterrestrials, he indicated in an interview with a Moscow Communist Party newspaper, Rabochaya Tribuna. And they may not be friendly. Vladimir Akhaltsev was driving his milk tanker truck one night in May when he noticed a shining ball following him. He tried to outrun it, gunning his rig to 60 mph on the twisting road several hundred miles south of Moscow before the UFO gave up the chase. Farmers who also saw the shining ball were said by the local newspaper to have demanded, "If thirsty humaniods steal our driver, who is going to deliver the milk?" Other Soviet reports, monitored and distributed without comment by the U.S. Air Force's Technical Information Division and by the State Department, have UFOs sniffing around politically restive Estonia, probing with mysterious light rays a buried gas pipeline in Siberia, and hovering over the village of Delnegorsk in the eastern Soviet Union. The Soviets, a deeply superstitious people with a historic mistrust of foreigners, have a ready explanation: Space aliens, perhaps running out of supplies at home, are after their natural resources. Whatever their purpose, reports of alien visits are exhaustively checked by the Soviets' elite Air Defense Forces, which operates the military's most sophisticated aircraft and the most powerful system of ground-based surveillance radar networks in the world. The Soviet air-defense unit has had a bad case of the jitters since 1987, when a 19-year-old West German on a lark flew a single-engine Cessna unmolested through 400 miles of Soviet airspace before buzzing President Gorbachev's Kremlin office and touching down in Red Square. Today, with those unpredictable Americans flying around in "Stealth" aircraft, no general or lowly radarman is going to overlook an unexplained radar blip or ignore a hysterical phone call. An example is the call from several Soviet policemen who breathlessly reported last spring that they had been shadowed by "two disk-shaped UFOs" near Krasnoyarsk. Or, the ominous report from Maj. V. Stroynetskiy, who along with "several hundred other witnesses" claimed to have seen numerous blinking, iridescent UFOs cavorting over a highway outside Moscow. Soviet Lt. Col. A. A. Semenchenko was properly cautious when he and other pilots recently were sent aloft to check out a UFO at 6,000 feet over Pereslavl-Zalesskiy, a city northeast of Moscow, according to after-action reports released by Maltsev and published by Rabochaya Tribuna. "I visually detected the target, designated by two flashing white lights, at 2205 hours," Semenchenko reported. Capt. V. Birin said the object "looked like a flying saucer with two very bright lights along the edges." In confirmation, ground-control radar said, "At 2203 hours, a fighter aircraft appeared in the field of observation... While the fighter was approaching the object, the latter disappeared." Capt. V. Ivchenko and others pilots said the UFO's lights flashed more quickly as the spacecraft accelerated. ------------------------------------------------------------------ DAILY EXPRESS, London, England-June 25, 1990 CR: T. Good UFO 'SHOT DOWN BY RUSSIANS' From GRAHAM LEES in Munich Soviet fighter planes shot down a giant UFO, and the wreckage was later recovered, it was claimed yesterday. The close encounter was described by Soviet scientists at an international conference on UFOs in Munich, West Germany. The scientists said the incident had been kept quiet by the Soviet military authorities, but documents and anpicture of the UFO wreckage had recently been leaked. Two MIG25 fighters allegedly intercepted the UFO in a remote region of Azarbaijan in 1983. They fired two rockets when it turned on to a collision course. The pilot's report said the UFO turned a bright colour and fell to earth. The wreckage was discovered by two mushroom pickers who later died-apparently from exposure to radiation. ---------------------------------------------------------------- TODAY, London, England-June 25, 1990 CR: T. Good RUSSIAN FIGHTERS DOWNED A UFO Russian fighters shot down a UFO which flew straight at them. They saw it change colour and plummet to the ground after their rockets slammed home. Two peasants who found a piece of wreckage died soon afterwards. The rest of the craft is being kept hidden by the KGB. The amazing claims weremade yesterday by Soviet scientists attending a conference on UFOs in West Germany. Dr. Marina Popvich, a former Russian airforce colonel, said: "I believe the military are holding on to something which originated outside our planet." The delegation said the UFO was shot down in 1983 by a pair of MIG fighters. Two peasants who found a piece nearly 20-feet square later died, apparently from the effects of radiation. Dr. Valery Uvarov said: "We have seen the pilot's report. It says the UFO did not explode but turned a bright colour and then fell to earth." A leading German scientist said: "I am usually very sceptical about most UFO stories, but this one cannot be treated lightly." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- New York Times, Thursday, October 12, 1989 __________________________________________ TASS'S THRILL: JOKING OVER UFO REPORT By Eleanor Blau The report by the Soviet press agency Tass that lanky, three-eyed creatures took a stroll through a Soviet park last month has caused such reverberations in the United States that they have bounced back to Tass itself. The agency reported Tuesday that major American television networks and newspapers, which it said typically avoid stories about unidentified flying objects, "played up the space adventure, frequently poking fun and suggesting that the beings from outer space might be a result of overzealous glasnost." The Tass report, written by an American working for the agency, did not sound resentful. It quoted Edwin Diamond a New York Magazine media critic who criticized what he called the story's shallowness, saying, "What did the Academy of Science think? Where are the pictures?" Ant it quoted Yervant Turzian of the Cornell University Astronomy Department, who said fellow academics regarded the story as a joke. DRAWING OF CREATURE IS BROADCAST "Given the physical parameters of the universe, the possibility of life on other planets is high," he told Tass. "But the vast majority of these reports can be explained by such logical phenomena as unconven- tional aircraft in the sky or artificial satellites." On the other hand, Tass found that "A Current Affair," the syndicated news and entertainment show, was taking the report seriously enough to plan on sending a film crew to Voronezh. That is where Tass originally reported that three children had said they saw aliens emerge from a ball, wearing silvery overalls. Last night, Soviet television viewers saw a picture of one of the creatures on the main nightly news program, "Vremya," in the form of a scribbled drawing by one of the children. It showed a smiling stick figure inside a glowing two-legged sphere. Vremya sounded more skeptical than the original Tass report, but it offered without comment an interview with Vasya Surin, one of the pur- ported witnesses. "HE DIDN'T HAVE A HEAD" "We were scared," says Vasya, who appeared to be about 11. "It hovered over this tree. Then the door opened and a tall person of about three meters looked out. He didn't have a head, or shoulders either. He just had a kind of hump. There he had three eyes, two on each side and one in the middle." Vasya said the alien had two holes instead of a nose, and could not turn its head, so it had to swivel its middle eye. But "Vremya" cast some doubt on the reports of the sighting, noting for instance, that there were no adult witnesses, even though a large apartment house overlooked the site. Since the first UFO sightings in the 1940's, spaceships have been described as sausages, cigars, balls, bananas, crescents, round straw hats, eggs, mushrooms, disks and, especially, saucers. But in the 1980's "Saucers are out; boomerangs are in," said Jim Speiser, a com- puter expert in Scottsdale, Ariz. He founded a national UFO computer network in 1986 because he thought there should be an exchange of in- formation instead of disputes among people who reacted variously to UFO stories, "from skeptics to wild-eyed gee-whiz believers." In a telephone interview, Mr. Speiser said of the reported Soviet sighting: "I think Tass is exploring its new freedom and is not used to self-censorship. I don't disbelieve, but we have much better stories in this country." Also surprised - but only because he thinks the media ignores UFO re- ports - is Tim Beckley of Inner Light Publications. He edits UFO Uni- verse, a glossy magazine that prints 100,000 copies six times a year and distributes them internationally. Mr. Beckley said that he is a journalist, not a scientist, and that he is almost as puzzled about UFOs now as he was when he saw his first in 1957, as a 10-year-old in New Brunswick, NJ. "Its kind of a cosmic game those entities seem to be playing with us," he said. ----- EOF ----- Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!rpi!masscomp!peora!tous!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: INFO: Meessen - Belgian UFO Sightings 1989-90 part1 Message-ID: <1991Sep30.023750.26746@bilver.uucp> Date: 30 Sep 91 02:37:50 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 467 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2224 alt.conspiracy:7730 sci.skeptic:15717 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This information is presented for your perusal and is a continuation of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-) As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups exclusively, comments to me should be directed to dona@bilver.uucp in mail. ----Meessen part 1 --------------------------------------------- (C) 1991 by the J. Allen Hynek Center for UFO Studies. Excerpted from the IUR, May/June, 1991; Volume 16, Number 3. THE BELGIAN SIGHTINGS by Auguste Meessen - - Auguste Meessen is professor of physics at the Catholic University of Louvain. This article, which first appeared in the November 1990 issue of Inforespace, is reprinted by permission. It was translated by Andrea Donderi, Mark Rodeghier, and W. D. Milner. ----------------------------------------------------------------- The sightings that occurred in Belgium between November 1989 and June 1990 have given us an impressive body of new data. We have even been able to study in detail material from both military and civilian ground radar screens. Moreover, an in-depth examination of on-board radar data from one of the F-16s sent up by the Belgian Air Force during the night of March 30-31, 1990, is currently under way. As far as I know, this is the first such opportunity in the world, but much remains to be done. I shall therefore only give an overview of this research. I shall outline what we are doing and briefly describe our methods. I shall also include some remarks on the unwarranted generalizations that are still too frequently encountered (from skeptics) and on the reactions of eyewitnesses in the current socio-psychological climate in European ufology. Finally, I shall present a few reports of sightings made in Belgium and abroad. One case in particular, the enormous lozenge-shaped object that flew over the outskirts of the town of Eupen on December 1, 1989, is representative of the quality and importance of the new information. In assessing reports it is important to be aware of what has been happening in other countries, so I shall include a few foreign cases that suggest the wave of sightings may not be over. Ground investigations At the beginning of December 1989 I joined the SOBEPS (Societe Belge d'Etude des Phenomenes Spatiaux) investigation. It was vital to familiarize myself personally with the number and quality of the eyewitness reports. I concentrated almost exclusively on the Eupen region, of which I am a native. I hoped that my fluency in German and my profession as a physicist would help loosen people's tongues. I have noted that many eyewitnesses, and particularly the most reliable ones with important social responsibilities, are reluctant to discuss what they have seen because of irrational socio-psychological pressures. The evening of November 29, 1989, was decisive, because two Eupen police officers had the courage to describe on television the UFO they had painstakingly observed. There were several other sightings that same day. I shall be compiling a list of them in the book that SOBEPS is planning to publish. I have discovered a series of eyewitness accounts that form a coherent sequence in time and space that day. The sightings made by Mr. J (more on which later) provide one example of what can be learned from these witnesses. In my opinion, data of these kinds, when taken together with the whole body of sightings worldwide, pose a challenge to the scientific community and to every thoughtful person. Journalists have had an especially important role. Some of them have performed their work conscientiously, but others were simply seeking sensational stories. Yet more felt obliged to lead a personal crusade against the gathering of eyewitness reports. I will cite just one example whose immediate effects I observed. A few days after December 18, 1989, a gendarme in the Eupen area refused to tell me what he had seen, probably because on that date a local daily paper had published an article which asserted that the "most plausible explanation" for UFO sightings was that the U. S. Air Force was secretly testing F-117A planes over Belgium. This article was preceded by the impressive headline "Explanation from Washington," and the subheading referred to a "hysteria" of UFO sightings. I was sent a copy of this paper the same day and immediately inquired into the matter, since these stories also form an aspect of the UFO phenomenon. It turned out that the "explanation" was only speculation, put forward by the Flemish paper Het Laatste Nieuws. I phoned the journalist who wrote the article that triggered off a rumor which is still causing much ink to be spilt. He explained that he had just read an article on the F-117A and wished to pass on such information to his readers. To make his article more interesting, he had suggested (gratuitously, with no reference to the actual sightings) that there might be a possible connection with recent sightings in Belgium. In the meantime, I had learned from Lt. Col. De Brouwer, Chief of Operations of the Belgian Air Force, that the Air Force had sought information from the American Embassy to help them explain the reports. This should not have been necessary if the sightings were caused by secret exercises, as De Brouwer routinely would have been informed of any such overflights. Instead, he took the trouble to secure accurate information about what the many Belgian eyewitnesses had really seen. Learning that an official American disclaimer was to be published, I telephoned the Eupen journalist to tell him the news and to ask him to publish a correction as soon as possible. When I asked him why he had spoken of "an explanation from Washington" and characterized the eyewitness accounts of local people as "hysterical " he responded, "I am against all that." I appreciate his candor, but that does not square with the regard for objectivity one expects of journalists. Such attitudes constitute disinformation and serve to dissuade eyewitnesses; they make the search for truth more difficult. The search for more objective information Having convinced myself of the reality and importance of the wave of UFO sightings in our country, I concluded that it would have been scientifically irresponsible to ignore this wave without trying to find out what had turned up on our country's radar screens. I did not know how to gain access to the data, but I felt that reason would eventually prevail. Since early December 1989 I had been in contact with Lt. Col. De Brouwer at the Headquarters of the Belgian Air Force, requesting that any radar documentation be preserved for a thorough scientific study. Shortly afterwards I sent a similar written request to Guy Coeme, Minister of National Defense. I also met the head of the air traffic control at Zaventem, the Brussels airport. I learned that he and his associates preserve recordings of radar data for several weeks on magnetic tape in the event of any inquiries relating to air safety. I therefore addressed a written request to Mr. Vandenbroucke, the General Manager of the Airlines Administration, for permission to videotape certain excerpts. These would be restricted to sequences selected on the basis of the number of fairly close- range and reliable UFO sightings. The goal was to verify whether there had been any suspicious radar traces before or after the sighting times, given that the UFOs were doubtless below the radar coverage at the time of very low-altitude sightings. Although the response was delayed, a call to Vanenbroucke brought immediate cooperation. I convey my warm thanks to him and to the Chief Engineer and the technical radar personnel of our national airport for their effective support, which proved useful. In consequence I have been able to film and analyze more than 180 hours of data from the Bertem radar installation, which serves Zaventem airport. In brief, two surprising and significant discoveries emerged from this material. I shall describe them later. One of these discoveries concerned the fact that echoes of unidentified origin often moved along linear trajectories of limited length. This perplexed me. I continued to collect as many data as possible, refusing to adopt any particular hypothesis. Furthermore, it was vital to analyze these data quickly so that I could assimilate their essential characteristics and determine what was worth studying more closely. In fact, I was involved in a race against time, since the magnetic tapes were retained only for a few weeks. Any potentially important material that I failed to save would be lost forever. I also hoped to gain access to the military radar documentation, although I knew this would be more difficult. An increasingly close and productive collaboration had developed with Lt. Col. De Brouwer and with Lt. Col. Billen, Chief of the Glons radar installation. They shared my profound conviction that an in-depth study was required, both to understand better the UFO phenomenon and to elucidate the mysterious phenomenon that I had discovered, probably of atmospheric origin. During this stage of the investigation an important event occurred. I knew that the Belgian Air Force planned to scramble F-16 fighters in cases where UFO sightings were reported by reliable eyewitnesses with additional confirmation by other evidence. These conditions seemed to have been met during the night of March 30-31, 1990. Although I was notified at an early stage, I had to wait for the Air Force's preliminary evaluation of the data before learning anything more. For my part, I kept Lt. Col. De Brouwer informed about my research on the data from the Bertem radar. He saw the benefit of checking these data against those from the military radar at Semmerzake. I was accordingly authorized to go there and obtain extracts from these tapes. The information regarding the events of the night of March 30-31 remained inaccessible since an Air Force investigation was underway, but we were making progress all the same. The Semmerzake data were more accurate and detailed than those I already had. Consequently, I was able to compare the data from the Semmerzake military radar with those from the Bertem civil radar, whose echoes are instantaneously transmitted to Semmerzake. They are subject to even less filtering than on the air controllers' screens at Zaventem airport. I could thus establish the coordinates and other characteristics of each individual echo. The analysis was laborious but made it possible to decisively confirm the preliminary conclusions drawn from the video films taken at Zaventem. After the release of the Air Force report in the summer of 1990, there were irrational reactions on the part of some French media. Lt. Col. De Brouwer responded by supplying more information, hoping to demonstrate that the situation was more complex and better documented than many supposed, and that it merited further analysis. He resolutely followed an open-minded policy. Some journalists had labeled the military "The Great Mute"; by contrast, Lt. Col. De Brouwer maintained that "we have nothing to hide in this matter." I can attest to his deep honesty and courage. After talking with a reporter from Paris Match (July 5, 1990, issue), De Brouwer also allowed some members of SOBEPS to see an extract from the video film of the on-board radar from one of the F-16s. The series of photos we were authorized to take enabled me to make a preliminary assessment, and I realized then the extremely strange nature of these data. Having made considerable headway in interpreting some of the initial radar data, 1 could see that the same explanation would not work for these astonishing observations. In order to go further, I needed the express permission of the Minister of National Defense. Since my written request had met with no response, probably because of bureaucratic inertia, I decided to telephone the Minister, Guy Coeme. His response was almost immediate: "I believe in openness." This was, I think, a historic attitude. In any event, it was an exemplary action, from which other countries will soon, I hope, draw inspiration. After this everything went like clockwork, albeit one whose hands moved slowly. For instance, I received the data from the Glons radar for the main events of March 30-31, 1990, on November 2, fully seven months later. The appropriate permissions had all been granted, but other military missions (in particular, the Gulf crisis and the intervention in Rwanda) took precedence compared to UFO investigations. Still, there can be a real advantage to letting ideas settle for a while. At present thorough studies are being undertaken in complete collaboration with an officer-engineer of the Belgian Air Force. I do not wish to name him so as to prevent him from being besieged with inquiries. The conclusions of our study will be published but only when this can be done in a responsible manner. The fundamental results Almost continually, radar screens show sporadic echoes not correlated with aircraft. Radar operators call these echoes "angels"as if they were pure spirits. For them the echoes constitute annoying "noise" and are ignored as much as possible. A priori they could just as easily be UFOs as natural phenomena. They appear only occasionally, all over the screen. An air traffic controller cannot afford to waste time and attention on them. When I systematically recorded the positions in which these "angels" appeared, however, I noted that they often moved in practically straight lines. I have labeled this the "flying angels effect." The average speed of this movement is low relative to that of aircraft (about 50 km//h). There are random fluctuations, but the mean speed is well-defined. The lines of motion are of limited length, and their direction of motion is not correlated with the wind. Furthermore they can appear (perhaps even more often) when the sky is clear. The Semmerzake radar could locate the physical position of the radar returns. As the data accumulated, it became evident that this phenomenon could not involve UFOs. It had to be an atmospheric problem, albeit a fairly special one, since the radar operators whom I consulted had not noticed this effect. A comprehensive survey of the literature indicated that this phenomenon had not been described either. I have finally discovered an explanation based on known physical principles and on some independent data. It will be described elsewhere when I have had time to verify it further. The "flying angels effect" is undoubtedly of atmospheric origin. My second main finding was that I found no reliable traces associated with eyewitness accounts of UFO sightings, even when I examined the traces over a wide range of times and places. I knew, however, that there had been previous cases of radar detection of UFOs. The evidence in these cases seems to be acceptable (and cannot be explained by the "flying angels" phenomenon). Given the lack of radar confirmation in Belgium, it would be easy to put forward one or the other of these two simplistic hypotheses: either the witnesses saw nothing of a material nature, or F-117 Stealth aircraft were involved. But neither one nor the other hypothesis takes into account the whole range of what was observed. The UFOs sighted in Belgium were usually described as platforms, either stationary or moving horizontally. This is sufficient to explain the low probability of detection by ground radars. The radar beams would be reflected back as if by a horizontal mirror. The same technique is used for the F-117A Stealth plane. On several occasions the UFOs had been described as having a vertical edge and a dome on top. Seen laterally or from above, as from an aircraft, radar detection might therefore be easier. So an F-16 might possibly detect a UFO of this kind, if the surfaces were not made of radar-absorbent material. This presents new questions, since if UFOs are extraterrestrial, why are their shapes now different from previously reported objects? Could they have adapted their craft's shape in order to evade our detection systems, or is it just a coincidence, resulting from the fact that this batch of visitors come from somewhere else? As for the data from the F-16 on-board radar, which operates differently from ground radars and can record different kinds of data, I can only say, for the time being, that they are astonishing. In particular, there are abrupt changes in speed as well as other strange features. This calls for a technical, far- reaching, and careful study. We have made a start. I don't know what conclusion we will reach, nor when we shall reach it. The views of Science & Vie With a few rare exceptions, the French media's coverage of the Belgian UFO sightings has not been distinguished by its objectivity. Some writers did not hesitate to quite openly make fun of the "little Belgians" and their "tales " but we shall see who laughs last. What surprised me most was the fact that the magazine Science & Vie (Science & Life) had launched a sort of anti-UFO crusade. I have often admired this magazine's articles of scientific popularization. It has, in the past, taken a clear responsibility for public's scientific education. It is all the more deplorable, then, that in this area it traffics in irrational, unscientific polemics. The only advantage may be to document the fact for future generations that at the end of the 20th Century people reacted in this fashion, in spite of the lessons that they could have drawn from the history of science. When there is a conflict between a new kind of fact and the established conceptual framework, people tend to hang on to preconceived ideas. What does not fit in with the theories that are regarded as unshakable is filtered out or repressed. People refuse to face reality. So far as UFOs are concerned, the method consists of selecting some facts that can be explained, it is thought, in a conventional manner. Then it is believed that this result can be extrapolated, without any effort's being made to examine the rest of the data. This leads to what can be termed unwarranted generalizations. In its January 1990 issue (No. 868), Science & Vie showed no hesitation in discrediting all the Belgian eyewitnesses on the basis of just one photograph. This photo, taken near Eupen, showed a big luminous dot. The photographers submitted the photo to SOBEPS, along with several others from the same event. Even though the photo had little to do with the many eyewitness sightings, it could have been given an detailed analysis. Instead, the editorial team of Science & Vie preferred an unsupported interpretation, strongly suggesting that all eyewitness reports smacked of "poetry" or optical illusions. In the June issue (No. 813) the magazine provided information about the F-I 17A Stealth aircraft. This sort of information had just been made public by the U.S. Air Force. The title of the article-"The UFO: This Is It," showing an example of an F- 117A- speaks volumes about the magazine's commercial rather than scientific intentions. Again, it insinuated that all the witnesses must have been mistaken, like the Belgian Air Force. The author of this article and everyone involved clearly felt no need to conduct on-the-spot inquiries in order to obtain more information and acquire an objective view of the facts. The October issue (No. 877) of Science & Vie announced on its first page that it was "on the track of the Belgian UFOs." In fact, the author was concerned only with the events of March 30- 31, 1990, and the involvement of the Belgian Air Force. Apparently he felt that this constituted the core of the matter, and that by debunking it he could dispose of the whole story. He considered only the initial reports, which contained raw, unanalyzed information. The author of the article is intelligent and able, but his method resembled more that of a lawyer defending a specific brief than that of a scientist representing the quest for truth. After the press conference given by Lt. Col. De Brouwer, the F-I 17A hypothesis had been discredited, but that need be no obstacle; plenty of other hypotheses can be constructed. Why not suggest the existence of another secret plane, with all the capabilities necessary to explain the apparent paradoxes? Perhaps the U.S. Air Force was testing this secret plane over Belgium without notifying the Belgian Air Force -a friendly nation which uses American F- 16s. Does this seem practical or likely? Consider that testing new planes inevitably involves the risk of an accident or crash, in which case the Belgian authorities would have to be notiFied to help protect essential secrets. Why not suggest that the Belgian police were so unaccustomed to seeing stars that they got all confused at the sight of some? Or, above all, that there is no supporting evidence to back up any of the Belgian sightings, even though there were more than a thousand reports and they went on for more than six months? Following this line of reasoning, everything is for the best in the "best of all possible worlds" in which profounder questions must not be asked. On the contrary, it seems to me that it's always a good idea to be guided by the Facts, especially when they are unexpected. What thousands of witnesses have seen for many years throughout the world deserves serious study. I am not advocating a specific hypothesis, only asking people to open their eyes. The witnesses' reactions Witnesses' reactions are diverse, as might be expected. In most cases people simply relate what has happened in a factual manner, being explicit about what they have been able to observe and confessing their perplexity. What now seems to me to be new and significant is that many witnesses are annoyed at not being taken seriously. As regards the socio-psychological hypothesis, which explains UFO sightings by the desire to make contact with extraterrestrial beings, I do not believe that this is compatible with my experiences interviewing a fairly sizable number of witnesses. Naturally there are pathological and even psychiatric cases, but let us again refrain from unwarranted extrapolations. I have noted, like other investigators, that at the outset of their strange sightings, witnesses practically always try to find a conventional explanation; as they take in more details, though, the conventional explanation no longer suffices. This reaction violates a basic assumption of some "socio-psychologists." It is true that witnesses are quicker to think of a UFO after the media have told them other people have seen them, and they report sightings more readily once they know that organizations are studying UFO reports seriously. Some people have intentionally scanned the skies, but they have not necessarily seen anything. It is absolutely normal for someone to filter and analyze sensory data on the basis of pre-existing conceptual models. What happens when there is a discrepancy? Some witnesses describe extraordinary events, repeating that they do not believe in UFOs. Perhaps they're trying to reassure themselves, perhaps they're afraid of seeming insane to the interviewers. On several occasions I have met witnesses who, although accepting the ET hypothesis, are visibly upset about these "intruders." Humanity could be defenseless and dependent on the goodwill of an unknown, technologically very superior, external power. I have met only one witness who told me in a confiding manner: "I should very much like to meet them." He said this spontaneously when I asked him what he thought of his sighting. Reality is far less clear-cut than the supporters of the socio-psychological hypothesis imagine. The collective unconscious does not, for the most part, desire contact with extraterrestrials. We cannot assume we are dealing with religious beliefs, either. On the contrary, it is clear that a fairly sizable number of witnesses have no wish at all to communicate what they have observed. We know this because of the cases discovered entirely by chance and long after the fact. The 1989- 90 Belgian wave encouraged a number of people to tell investigators about much earlier sightings. One man wrote to me describing a sighting made during the mobilization before World War II, when he was all alone on a road. He was so excited and frightened by the experience that he told no one except his wife. A member of an embassy told me of a sighting made aboard an aircraft with many other people. Afterwards, he asked me not to say anything about it to the other embassy personnel, saying, "They'll think me crazy." The fact that the UFOs reported here are generally of a different type from the traditional "saucer" is also significant. If the witnesses had invented their accounts, they would probably have tried to make them seem more believable by corresponding to the standard model. This is not what happened. One new feature is that the Belgian UFOs travel over cities at very low altitudes. Moreover, there were no marked electromagnetic disturbances, as has often been reported in the past. These differences are worth considering with a view to understanding the technology rather than simply assuming that the witnesses can't relate accurately what they've seen. ----- Cont in Meessen part 2 ------------------------------------ Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!rpi!masscomp!peora!tous!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: INFO: Meessen - Belgian UFO Sightings 1989-90 part2 Message-ID: <1991Sep30.023911.26883@bilver.uucp> Date: 30 Sep 91 02:39:11 GMT Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 424 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2225 alt.conspiracy:7731 sci.skeptic:15718 ----Meessen part 2 (conclusion) --------------------------------- An enormous lozenge at Eupen Mr. J observed the same type of object twice. I heard of his sightings indirectly, and when I telephoned him, he firmly insisted on anonymity: "I don't want anyone to tell my children that their father was out of his mind." He told me that the machine he had seen was "incredibly large." This assessment was based on his first sighting, which was on December 1, 1989. I visited him on January 15, five days after his second sighting. He is an amateur photographer and described the UFO with the precision of a careful observer. On the evening of December 1, he was going to take his wife to a private exhibition organized by his club. At around 5 p.m. two of his five children, aged 14 and 15, had already told him about "strange planes in the sky." After school they had been playing on the street with a Moroccan boy who lived in one of the neighboring houses. It was already growing dark and one of the children said, "They're UFOs," using the German word for UFO. Mr. J had replied, "Of course not, they must be planes." At 6:50 Mr. J was ready to leave. He was sitting in the living room in his usual chair near a window that looks out on a terrace at the rear. At that moment one of his children came rushing up all excited, saying, "Look, they're here again!" Struck by his child's insistence, Mr. J rose and went out onto the terrace. This forms, together with the garden, a large L- shaped open space behind a cluster of houses. Mr. J saw the young Moroccan, who was at the back garden of his house, in the other branch of L, pointing at the sky and stating, "See, one's just coming." Mr. J told me, "I don't understand how this boy could say that so calmly, as if it was a commonplace remark, because I almost fell over backwards when I looked up. I tell you that if you have not seen one, you cannot believe it. It was enormous." Mr. J then spontaneously set about drawing the object, which was lozenge-shaped, with two white lights at each corner and, in the center, a kind of illuminated bell projecting from the platform (figure 1). The surface of the object was dark but clearly visible against the brighter sky. It had been a sunny day, and the sky was perfectly clear. Stars were visible around the object. It glided slowly from southwest to northeast, without the slightest sound. It could be followed at a comfortable walking pace. The large diagonal of the lozenge was perpendicular to the direction of movement and was at least 35 meters long. During my visit Mr. J went onto the terrace to show me his reference marks. The nearest end of the large diagonal had been directly above his house and the other end had passed above a large building 350 meters away. He was unable to determine the altitude of the object, but he noticed that he could see the sky between the object and the building opposite. As a result he felt that the object could have been even larger than the distance between his house and the building. A little later on, Mr. J reported that the white lights flashed off and on regularly. I asked him whether they did this at the same time. He replied, "I don't know. I couldn't see the four corners simultaneously. I had to crane my neck." These lights were circular and large. "The most extraordinary thing about them was their power," he said. They illuminated the ground with a white light. In the center of the lozenge was an "inverted bell" which was wholly illuminated by an orange light. At the bell's apex was a green light, darker than green traffic lights. The skirt of the bell was surrounded by a row of red lights, changing brightness sequentially. This gave a false impression of revolving lights. "These lights never completely went out, but they grew distinctly brighter at certain moments." The lights did not illuminate the underside of the object, which remained dark. The red lights "chased each other" with a slow, comfortable movement. "It wasn't an alarming flash, like that from an ambulance or police car. It was even pleasant to watch." Mr. J also remembered that "the luminous bell was strange, because you couldn't tell whether the light came from its interior or the surface." Since the witness was an amateur photographer, he considered going to find his camera but realized it was too big to capture adequately. Knowing that he had 100 ASA film loaded, he gauged that the mass of the object, which was almost black, would not be made out on film since the white lights were too dazzling. He did what he could. "I tried to remember as much as possible. I also called my wife and daughter so that someone from my family could see it." Mrs. J did not see the object. She heard her husband but was in the bath. His daughter arrived after the object was already some way off, having passed over the roofs of the houses. Mr. J went with her to the front, where they stayed long enough to see the object leave, still at a fairly slow speed, passing over the Eupen cemetery. Mr. J bitterly regrets not having taken photos. Since then he has been to Aix-la-Chapelle to buy infrared film, which he keeps in the refrigerator. The young Moroccan came over while Mr. J was drawing his picture for me. He said, unasked, "Yes, it's like that." The vertical edge (on figure 1) was not visible on December 1. Mr. J drew it based on his second sighting. This second sighting took place on Wednesday, January 10, 1990, at about 1:35 p.m. It was dark. The witness, on his way to a photo club, had taken the E5 highway after reaching the Herbesthal road and was proceeding inland. He had gone only a few kilometers when he saw a stationary object in the sky. It was exactly "the same model." Mr. J stopped his car on the side of the road. Other drivers seemed not to notice anything. Mr. J leaned on the hood of his car, watching the object with arms crossed. Everything was identical to the first sighting, but on this occasion the lozenge was oriented sideways, and he could see it had a constant and considerable height. It was about 500 meters away. Its lights seemed less bright this time, perhaps because of the highway illumination. Mr. J was exasperated that he hadn't brought his camera. There would probably be no point in returning home. After 10-15 minutes the object started to move off toward Fagnes. It left slowly and silently. Just as it was departing the luminosity increased. "It was as though the voltage of the lights had been intensified as it moved gently away." It may seem strange that Mr. J saw the same object twice. It should, however, not be forgotten that the events of December 1 had been deeply etched in his memory; as a consequence, his mental "filters" would have been adjusted in such a way that he would more easily notice a similar object in the sky at night. I have no reason to doubt this eyewitness report. His sincerity and spontaneity were evident. The witness had spoken with only a few people and had learned to be cautious. "I have seen many things in my life," he said, "but when I talk about this, people look at me oddly." A UFO flies over Aix-la-Chapelle On December 5 or 12, 1989, Mr. and Mrs. O were driving northward on the Triererstrasse in the town of Aix-la-Chapelle. It was about 9:50 p.m. when they suddenly saw a flying object cut across the road right in front of them. It moved steadily to the right. It had two headlights in front, emitting beams that slanted downwards. The light was white and intense without being blinding. In addition, there was an orange light on the underside, Dashing at the same rate as an ambulance's lights. Mr. O was driving and had to pay attention to traffic, but Mrs. O continued to observe what they still thought was an aircraft flying exceptionally low. She kept it constantly in sight. When it had crossed the road, it extinguished its headlights, but the flashing orange light remained illuminated. This made it possible to see that the object was describing a half-turn on a tight curve, heading back in the opposite direction. Mrs. O first saw it through the front right-hand window. Then she turned around to look at it through the back rear window. The object approached again, passed over the car, and reappeared in the front left-hand window. It had cut across the road diagonally. At a certain distance from the car, its headlights came on again. Since the headlights were at the front of the object, they could no longer be seen directly, but the beams that they emitted were visible. Unlike an aircraft, there were no rear lights or flashing red and green side-lights. All that could be seen was the flashing orange light, which became fainter and fainter as the craft went away. Mr. and Mrs. O returned to their home, near Aix-la-Chapelle. That same evening, at 11:15 p.m., Mr. O stepped outside to let the dog out and noticed exactly the same object. It was flying above their street, in the direction of Stollberg. Mr. O immediately called his wife. The headlight beams were less angled than they had been before, but the machine was flying lower. Its motion was linear and uniform, with a speed about that of a helicopter, but to the great astonishment of the witnesses it made no sound. Mrs. O was insistent about the absence of noise, for conditions were such that she and her husband ought to have heard it had the craft been equipped with a motor. I asked them later about the apparent size of the object, suggesting that a thumb held at arm's length might cover it. The immediate response was, "No, it would have required a whole hand." The sighting occurred fairly late, so the sky was dark. The object stood out clearly against it, because it was somewhat brighter. The witnesses saw an elongated shape, less high than long, with curved edges. The outlines were different from those of an aircraft or helicopter. The hypothesis of night gliders or ultralights is not very credible, particularly in the case of the first sighting. The next day a police car passed down the street, its loud-speaker requesting those who had seen "anything abnormal" to report it to them. Mr. and Mrs. O did not do so. Were there other witnesses? They do not know, because they don't read the local paper. Mr. O, who is Japanese, subscribes to a Cologne daily paper and the Financial Times. I was alerted to this case by Mrs. O's sister, who lives in Eupen. The German police habitually ridicule UFO witnesses, so it is not surprising that Mr. and Mrs. O didn't want to report their sighting. I also conducted an inquiry into a close encounter involving two German families living in Lontzen, in Belgium on November 29. The children involved were frightened, so one of the mothers called various places, including the Aix-la-Chapelle police. She told me that they laughed at her and that their derisive response had shocked her. A triangular UFO at Coblenz The following case was described in the July-August 1990 issue of the Journal fur UFO-Forschung (Journal for UFO Research) of the GEP group (Society for the Investigation of the UFO phenomenon), based in Ludencheid, Germany. The investigation was carried out by W. Kelch. This case is interesting in itself, since it involves the sighting of a triangle in another country, but it also has interesting psychological aspects. The principal witness, a 33-year-old woman, works at a military base and seems to have a solid character. The sighting took place on the evening of February 21, 1990, at 9:07 p.m., in Karthause, near Coblenz. The lady was returning home by car, accompanied by her mother (aged 69) and her son (aged 14), who had been to a judo lesson. They were driving through an attractive residential district on a fairly wide road. To the right was a continuous line of trees 15-18 meters in height, bordering a cemetery. The left-hand side of the road was fringed with houses 20-25 meters high on a small hill. Through traffic is virtually nil and, at this late stage of the evening, there was no residential traffic. In fact, no car went by during the episode. The weather was cool and it was dark. The sky was clear. The mother was the first to see two lights beaming straight down at them at a 45-degree angle (figure 2a). The object bearing these lights slowed down, but the driver, fearing it might crash, pulled to the right side of the road. There she stopped, with the car at an angle. The object stopped above the road, almost directly overhead. The driver switched off the engine, lowered the window and looked out. She saw a large triangular object, absolutely stationary and noiseless, at rooftop height. From other reference points it was possible to determine that the sides of the triangle measured about 20 meters (figure 2b). The witnesses watched the object closely, but no one dared get out of the car. Three milky, yellowish-white lights were at the corners of the triangle. They were bright but not blinding. In the center of the triangle was a much larger light. Its color was changing but the prevailing hue was grey-blue. These changes seemed to imply something revolving, reminding the witnesses of the mirror-globes in discos. The witnesses said that "this light shone in a strange way." They saw only the lower side of the triangular platform. The object had a metallic appearance. It was dark-gray and colorless, with solid and sharp outlines The base was slightly illuminated by the lights on the object, allowing the witnesses to observe structures which they described as riveted plates (figure 2b). The object stayed overhead for two or three minutes then departed suddenly in the direction of the houses. The driver of the car felt a breeze through her rolled-down window. The object accelerated and disappeared from view in less than a second, behind the roofs of the houses. It had arrived from the west, but departed towards the southwest. Its departure was speedier than that of a jet aircraft. The witnesses then went home, and the woman immediately informed her husband, who was on nightshift. At first he was unwilling to believe her story but finally, at her insistence, called the local police. Although the police had not received any other calls, they agreed to send a police squad to the area. Her husband also called the air-traffic sections at the Frankfurt and Cologne-Wahn airports. They responded that radar detection was not possible at so low an altitude. The three witnesses were unable to sleep that night. The mother, feeling afraid, stayed in her daughter's apartment. Later on the wife tried to clear up the mystery on her own initiative. She found the address and telephone numbers of the GEP, who sent her a questionnaire which she completed and returned by mail. She succeeded in locating two other witnesses. Between 8:30 and 8:50 that same evening, a lady saw "something bright heading quite rapidly towards my car," near the intersection of the A61 and A48 highways. Frightened, she braked. Through the sunroof she saw a bus-shaped metallic object with fairly bright, bluish lights. The object went by noiselessly, disappearing finally in the dark. A UFO was also seen by a 30- year-old man, just before 9:07 p.m., near the same spot. When questioned, however, he distanced himself from the incident, saying, "Nobody's going to believe me anyway." When the GEP investigator contacted the police, they asserted that they could not recall having received any telephone calls about UFOs and that they knew nothing of the matter. The lady and her husband were annoyed by this denial. The investigator had the impression that the wife was a down-to-earth sort of individual. He found no discrepancy between her account and the questionnaire she had completed. So far as the witness was concerned, she had seen an unidentified flying object. The GEP tried to find a conventional explanation. A balloon was ruled out because there had been a light east wind and the object was first seen moving west to east. And how could it have turned around and left so fast? The police use BO-105 helicopters to patrol the highways for trucks, but this too was ruled out. Could it have been a military plane? There is in actual fact a military exercise ground (Schmitenhohe) two kilometers away, where German and NATO forces run nocturnal infrared reconnaissance flights and other exercises. But that night there had been no exercises. In Germany a CH-47 Chinook helicopter is often suggested as an explanation for UFO reports. Such aircraft are used between Mendig and Mainz, but the flights take place almost exclusively during the day at a height of 800-1000 meters. Taken as a whole, the evidence in this case renders that explanation unlikely. Nevertheless, the investigator thought it necessary to consider the possibility that the three witnesses were in shock and had perhaps not heard the noise, having been paralyzed by fear. The investigator thus concluded noncommittally that "the available data do not allow us to make an unambiguous identification as a known flying object." You can make what you like about this statement. Who is frightened? The witnesses by a somewhat hypothetical helicopter, or the investigator by social and psychological pressures? A recent sighting in Switzerland This event occurred on Sunday, October 14, 1990. The Swiss sighting was relayed to me by the witness, Mrs. Wengere, who has authorized me to cite her name. She telephoned me from Switzerland and confirmed her account in writing. An editor by profession, she was clearly looking for people who would listen seriously to such reports. She wrote to a Zurich paper and personally collected various recent eyewitness reports a copy of which she sent me. On the evening of October 14 she and her husband were on their way to a hospital to visit a friend. It was about 7 p.m., already dark, with stars easily visible. The sky was clear and there was no wind. They were driving from Lostdorf, near Olten, toward Zurich. Mrs. Wengere spotted two bright white lights. They were motionless, a little to the left ahead of them, over a range of mountains. The couple could not see light beams but only two large, luminous, perfectly round disks, surrounded by a light atmospheric halo. The left-hand light was higher than the right. Mrs. Wengere at first thought the lights must be on transmission towers on the mountaintops, although they would have to have been erected recently since she had never seen them before. There was still enough light in the sky for her to observe that there was nothing between the lights and the range of mountains. She thus deduced that the lights had to be supported by one or two flying objects whose shape was not discernible. She told her husband, "There's a UFO over there! " She asked him to stop. He saw the lights and could not explain them either, but he didn't stop because there was no parking space along the road and it would have been dangerous to stop in the dark. The bright lights must have been of excessive dimensions since the stars appeared minuscule and pale in comparison, as did the lights of an approaching aircraft. There was one approaching the UFO (figure 3a) at that very moment. If the lights were at the same distance as the plane, each of them ought to have been almost as large as the plane itself. Mrs. Wengere expected the object to react to the plane, but at that moment she and her husband were passing a village and lost sight of the object. They even had to wait for a red traffic light. When they once more had a clear view, the lights had disappeared. Mrs. Wengere was annoyed that her husband had not stopped when she had asked him to. He exclaimed, "Look, there they are again! " The lights were hanging a little higher in the sky, above the mountains to the right of the road. The new position and the previous location formed an angle of about 100 degrees. Since the witnesses had not observed the shift, this could have been another object entirely. In fact, they now noted a third light, identical to the first two, a little to the left of the others. It was separated from them by a distance almost 10 times as large as the distance between the other two lights, which were still stationary. The third light was at first motionless, but after some time it shifted slowly towards the others with a linear uniform speed. It stopped after having covered two-thirds of the distance that separated it from them (figure 3b). The other two lights began to move together, as if they were joined, their diagonal alignment becoming horizontal. The pair became smaller and less intense, but at the same time two chains of red and green lights appeared joining the two. The distance between them grew greater and eventually the two lights disappeared, leaving only the red and green crown of light visible. The third light also changed during this time it became fainter and acquired its own oval crown of small red and green lights. The vertical axis of the ellipse thus formed grew gradually longer, but the second crown was smaller than the first (figure 3c). The two witnesses thought that the chains of light were fixed to the sides of objects that were changing their tilt, but neither of them could actually see the objects. Followed by other vehicles, they continued to drive on. Mr. Wengere had slowed down only slightly. The lights were lost once again behind some houses, this time for good. The Wengeres were already aware of the UFO phenomenon as a result of a previous sighting. On July 20, 1989, at about 6:50 p.m., they had both been out in their garden. The sun was shining and the sky was cloudless. Mrs. Wengere noticed an elongated, silvery object. It moved like an aircraft, but she could see neither wings nor tail. It was simply cigar-shaped and completely silent. She pointed it out to her husband, who was equally surprised. Mrs. Wengere thought it so strange that ten minutes later she telephoned the air-traffic control at Zurich-Kloten airport. She learned that there had been no "official flight" at that time over her home and that nothing abnormal had been recorded on the radar screens. Mrs. Wengere was unable to stop thinking about what she had seen on October 14. She remembered having read about a large number of sightings of UFOs in Belgium. On October 20 she decided to telephone the air traffic center at Zurich-Kloten. They had seen nothing unusual on their radars during the evening of October 14, and no one else had reported a similar phenomenon. The man who answered the telephone said, "It must be an optical illusion due to some sort of reflection." He said this haughtily, adding that he received many telephone calls of this kind, but that they were almost always optical illusions. This indicates that there were other UFO reports, although the explanation he offered was purely gratuitous. I note that in the United States a photograph was taken on May 26, 1988, near Southbury of a beautiful crown of alternating red, yellow and green lights against a black background. This is documented by a magnificent slide that I have received from Philip Imbrogno, co-author of the book Night Siege. This shows that one must not treat each case in isolation as if it were unique, but search for correlations as has to be done for any physical phenomenon. For this reason we must not focus our attention solely on the events of March 30-31, 1990, whatever their possible importance may eventually be. As for the "flying angels effect," which has led to some notable problems in atmospheric physics and useful knowledge for radar operators, this discovery was simply a by-product of rational study of the UFO problem. As such it underlines that it is worthwhile to look carefully at mysterious phenomena. I expect that the thoroughness and seriousness of our study of radar "noise" will help our credibility as we examine other aspects of the UFO phenomenon. =END= ----------------------------------------------------------------- Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!uunet!stanford.edu!unixhub!slacvm!doctorj From: DOCTORJ@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Jon J Thaler) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: FILE: Codex.asc - Peruvian AF encounter with Aliens Message-ID: <91274.073246DOCTORJ@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> Date: 1 Oct 91 15:32:46 GMT References: <1991Sep30.022452.26277@bilver.uucp> Organization: Stanford Linear Accelerator Center Lines: 10 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2226 alt.conspiracy:7735 sci.skeptic:15722 dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) says: (...lots of UFO nonsense deleted...) > I think we're being played with, tested, poked and prodded just > to see what we can do and are capable of doing. We are their > guinea pigs. I think Don has it right this time, except that he has not correctly identified the tester and the testee. Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!uknet!ukc!warwick!kingpol!titan.kingston.ac.uk!as_m332 From: as_m332@titan.kingston.ac.uk Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Gravity Propulsion ?? Message-ID: <1991Oct1.113117.1@titan.kingston.ac.uk> Date: 1 Oct 91 10:31:17 GMT References: <1991Sep26.224105.19400@mprgate.mpr.ca> Sender: news@kingston.ac.uk (Network News) Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors Organization: Kingston Polytechnic Lines: 30 Nntp-Posting-Host: tethys In article <1991Sep26.224105.19400@mprgate.mpr.ca>, spani@mprgate.mpr.ca (Leonard Spani) writes: > - one method of propulsion was to focus the gravity waves at a distant point > in space and "pull" that point towards the ship together by bending space. > When the gravity was turned off, space would "snap" back into position and > the ship would be in the new position. A new position that may be very, > very far from the original position. > - Lazar claimed that ships using this drive mechanism could travel *much* > faster than the speed of light. (Although technically they wouldn't actually > *travel* from A to B, they would instantaneously "snap" from A to B and > their effective speed (distance/time) would be many times the speed of > light.) Surely though, a device capable of generating a gravity field so intense as to draw the craft towards a distant body in space would also affect the motion of bodies within an equal radius, and in all directions. As the motion of the Earth and local planets has not been observed to have 'warped' in any way, then such a craft must focus it's wave generator on a *large* mass outside of our solar system and then travel from there to here by 'conventional' means. Whatever they might be. Sean Eaton, Mathematics, Kingston Poly, England. Internet: as_m332@titan.king.ac.uk JANET (UK): as_m332@uk.ac.king.titan UUCP: ...!uunet!mcsun!ukc!uk.ac.king.titan!as_m332 "I rather like walking in the English fog.. it's sort of mysterious" -Susan Foreman Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!pyrnj!pyramid!infmx!bruceb From: bruceb@informix.com (Bruce Barr) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts Message-ID: <1991Oct1.153547.6833@informix.com> Date: 1 Oct 91 15:35:47 GMT References: <1991Sep30.170806.18957@engage.pko.dec.com> <48016@cup.portal.com> Sender: news@informix.com (Usenet News) Organization: Informix Software, Inc. Lines: 86 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15731 alt.paranormal:3215 alt.alien.visitors:2228 talk.religion.newage:7013 In article <48016@cup.portal.com> Don_-_Showen@cup.portal.com writes: >Barry Merriman confesses > >>Personally, if I went into trance states and channeled "alter intelligences", >>I'd be seriously worried that I was insane, or diseased, and the first thing I >>would do is ask for some simple verification. If none is forthcoming, I'd >>submit myself for pschological/medical tests immediately, to look for presence >>of brain tumors or other disorders. > >>Really Don, its highly irresponsible for you to encourage the channeller to >>continue, when this could be the manifestation of some severe mental or >>physical disease that could be treated if caught early enough. It is well >>known that various disorders manifest themselves as hearing voices, having >>vivid hallucinations, etc, all which could be mistaken as some form of >>"contact" with another intelligence, except for the fact that these contacts >>contain no factual information unknown to the reciever. > >Barry I really want to express my thanks and gratitude for your confession. >You do the churches, govt., education system and AMA proud! You are >responding precisely the way they programed you. Beautiful!!!! You see >divine inspiration has always been a problem. The churches had to stop divine >inspiration because if one listens to their inner voice they will KNOW their >connection to All That Is and will not be available to follow dogma. >Consequently millions were burned at the stake for listening to their inner >voice (divine inspiration). Well the govts came along and cut a deal with the >church. Basically it was to use education as a way to get individuals afraid >of and/or unconscious of divine inspiration, by getting them to believe if >they couldn t see it it didn t exist. So they would be educated to go to a >doctor if they noticed a inner voice. Now how did doctors get in on the deal? >Well if a person is divinly inspired they don t get sick, so guess who would >be out of business, non other but the AMA. So I am sure the churches, govt., >schools, and the AMA are proud of you, you are a shining example of their work. Up until this point you have made a point about pre-conditioning. Not in the best way possible, but within reasonable limits. My Comment: I can't SEE a virus, but I can recognize the effects on my body. If there is a possibility of communications from another higher (note lack of ' '...) form of life through channeling, then some form of factual information should be possible to send. If not I question the communications medium and/or the intellegence of the higher life form. If it is really a question of lack of terminology, surly a little study of glossaries could be undertaken. (Sorry for those not following this thread, this is refering to another post.) >BTW did you take a pay off to write that? I wonder how many times you have ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Here you have crossed the line. Period. You have stated that you are not out to 'convert' anybody. I assure you, at this rate, you will not. >been burned at the stake? Would you be interested in doing some past life ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >work with me and find out? ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Please offer ANY historical evidence of ANY past life uncovered by ANYBODY that is, of course, not explained by some 'tainting' of the person by by normal knowledge of the historical events involved. I will accept any reasonable doubt that no tainting is involved. I am just unaware of any evidence. Please show me I am wrong. > > >Don Showen Waiting expectantly, Bruce Barr -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Questions? You can reach me at: | | Bruce Barr (913) 599-8709 voice | | International Product Planning (913) 599-7350 fax | | Informix Software, Lenexa Ks. or e-mail me at: | | | | Applelink:D0357 bruceb@informix.com | | Compuserve:70075,1262 ...{uunet || pyramid}!informix!bruceb | | | | It's a recession when your neighbor Statistics are like a bikini. | | loses his job; What they reveal is suggestive, | | It's a depression when you lose but what they conceal is vital. | | yours. Aaron Levenstein | | Harry S. Truman, 1958 | | I can't be a racist. I'm black - Rev. Al Sharpton | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!watserv1!watmath!descartes!jsinclai From: jsinclai@descartes.waterloo.edu (Jack Sinclair) Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: A channeled message from Kuthumi to the U.N.: Message-ID: <1991Oct1.174200.18831@descartes.waterloo.edu> Date: 1 Oct 91 17:42:00 GMT References: <1991Oct1.012125.27603@beaver.cs.washington.edu> Organization: University of Waterloo Lines: 29 Xref: ns-mx talk.religion.newage:7015 alt.alien.visitors:2229 alt.paranormal:3216 In article <1991Oct1.012125.27603@beaver.cs.washington.edu> pullen@cs.washington.edu (Walter D. Pullen) writes: > > MESSAGE FROM MASTER KUTHUMI TO THE ATTENDEES > of the > Parapsychology Society Subcommittee > United Nations > New York, New York > October 15, 1990 > >Transmission received on October 11 and 12, 1990 by Dr. Norma >Milanovich, Albuquerque, NM. Copyright 1990 by Dr. Norma Milanovich. >All rights reserved. This message may be copied for the sole purpose >of sharing it with others. No part of this message may be published, >..... >What this means for you and the direction for the world is that the >window of time has been placed in the country of the United States of >America. The mirror for this realization is found in the beloved >capital city you call Washington, D.C. Have you never wondered, oh >children, why the Washington Monument contains the pyramid on its >structure? Have you never wondered why the great symbol of this same No! The mother of all windows is located in Baghdad!! ;-) -- Cutting the deficit? You mean slowing the rate at which Canada is financially crippled, don't you? Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!uunet!sequent!muncher.sequent.com!news From: wolfe@sequent.com (David Wolfe) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts Message-ID: <1991Oct1.192743.4096@sequent.com> Date: 1 Oct 91 19:27:43 GMT References: <1991Sep30.170806.18957@engage.pko.dec.com> <48015@cup.portal.com> Sender: news@sequent.com (News on Muncher) Organization: Sequent Computer Systems, Inc. Lines: 28 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15741 alt.paranormal:3219 alt.alien.visitors:2230 talk.religion.newage:7019 Don_-_Showen@cup.portal.com writes: >Nikola Tesla had over 700 patents. He is the man responsible for Alternating >Current and radio being on this planet. He freely admitted he was getting >assistance from higher, extraterrestrial intelligence. [Tesla life story deleted] >I doubt it. The point is that maybe those of you who have a solid science >background, have it as a foundation to receive and implement new technologies >from higher intelligence. All I am saying is that there is higher >intelligence out there and maybe you can receive or are receiving it. If only >you would stop screaming and believing - if it can t be seen it does not exist. >Listen! So you deny that any human could have thought of the things Einstein and Tesla did without alien help? We are so puny and incompetent and our visualisation capacities so limited we couldn't think of or do any of these things on our own? How about great works of art and music? The advent of phsychiatry? Were Freud and Jung in contact with aliens? Was Andy Warhol Channeling? How about philosophy, literature or religion? Was Gandhi an alien puppet? I think you are the one who denies what you cannot understand: Human creativity, insight and technical capacity. -DaveW >Don Showen Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!srhqla!venus!kdq From: kdq@3D.com (Kevin D. Quitt) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts Message-ID: <1991Oct1.191911.7936@3D.com> Date: 1 Oct 91 19:19:11 GMT References: <1991Sep30.170806.18957@engage.pko.dec.com> <48015@cup.portal.com> Organization: 3D systems, inc. Valencia CA Lines: 37 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15742 alt.paranormal:3220 alt.alien.visitors:2231 talk.religion.newage:7020 In article <48015@cup.portal.com> Don_-_Showen@cup.portal.com writes: >... the Pleiadians are spiritual, metaphysical >teachers and I consider what they teach to be among the highest quality of >information I have encountered. Has anything they've presented to you been outside of current human philsophy? That is, have you learned anything from them that couldn't or hasn't come from a normal human mind? Would you give some (short) examples? (email may be preferable) >Nikola Tesla ... freely admitted he was getting >assistance from higher, extraterrestrial intelligence. He did? What's your source? >when he was in school he presented >his theory of alternating current and the professor spent the whole class >period putting Tesla and the theory down. Where was this documented? > Now lucky for us that Tesla was not >a Skeptic and more interested in what his peers thought than truth, or we >would be using Edisions DC power with a generating plant every few blocks. Wrongo boy! He *was* a skeptic, and only believed what he had evidence for. A skeptic is the *one person* who will not be swayed by opinion. -- _ Kevin D. Quitt srhqla!venus!kdq kdq%venus@sr.com 3D systems, inc. 26081 Avenue Hall Valencia, CA 91355 VOICE (805) 295-5600 x430 FAX (805) 257-1200 96.37% of all statistics are made up. Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!convex!quattro From: quattro@convex.com (Marc Quattromani) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts Message-ID: <1991Oct01.201219.25667@convex.com> Date: 1 Oct 91 20:12:19 GMT References: <47188@cup.portal.com> <47838@cup.portal.com> <1991Sep29.204656.10708@summa4.mv.com> Sender: usenet@convex.com (news access account) Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA Lines: 21 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15746 alt.paranormal:3221 alt.alien.visitors:2232 talk.religion.newage:7021 Nntp-Posting-Host: neptune.convex.com In article <1991Sep29.204656.10708@summa4.mv.com> admin@summa4.mv.com (Scott Babb) writes: >I hate to be a skeptic ;-), but has anyone mentioned that the Pleiadians claim >to be from a star system whose age is measured in thousands of years (well, >tens of thousands, maybe) while we lesser-advanced beings have taken millions >of years to evolve to our current level? Perhaps living on plasma planets >is more conducive to rapid intellectual evolution? Ah, but it's such a pretty group of stars, one that everyone can immediately recognize. You wouldn't expect such advanced beings to be from somthing as dull as a solar system with a dim little star such as our own, one that's barely visible from adjacent solar systems, would you? You bring up a very good point although I believe the age of the stars is in the tens of millions of years. Still very short but blue stars don't last very long. -- Marc Quattromani Convex Computer Corporation Richardson, Texas quattro@convex.COM Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!sdd.hp.com!apollo!mcn From: mcn@apollo.hp.com (Michael McNulty) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: Report on Sept. 29th NH MUFON conference Message-ID: <1991Oct1.210424.24378@apollo.hp.com> Date: 1 Oct 91 21:04:24 GMT References: <1991Sep30.023911.26883@bilver.uucp> Sender: netnews@apollo.hp.com (USENET posting account) Organization: Hewlett-Packard Company, Apollo Division - Chelmsford, MA Lines: 209 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2233 alt.conspiracy:7745 sci.skeptic:15747 Nntp-Posting-Host: roddy.ch.apollo.hp.com I attended the all-day New Hampshire MUFON conference this past Sunday, Sept. 29th. Its big draw was that it was advertised as the last, official, public appearnce of Betty Hill. Generally speaking, it was interesting, but there were definitely slow parts to it. Admittedly, it may just be that I am more interested in some things than others, but I found the entire morning session to be not much more than filler. Anyway, here's the line-up, along with my impressions: First speaker: Head of the NH MUFON (sorry, I don't know his name) - He presented some very vague, very general, very unsubstantiated (to me, very uninteresting) reports of new sightings in the NH area. He seemed to mention on every one of them (there were about 5 that he keyed on) that they hadn't done much reserach or interviews on them and that they needed help to flesh out the reports and/or to check their veracity. He was obviously only there because his state MUFON was running the conference. Actually, he did talk about one fairly interesting case that involved the pilot of a small craft sighting a beam-of-light-in-a-fog-like UFO and trying to tail it, with directions provided, when possible, by the ground airport personnel. He said that the ball of light appeared on his wing at one point, but then "flew" away. In addition to the radar man (or air traffic controller or whatever he was) spotting this on radar, there were four ground personnel who were out messing with (maybe "parking") a landed plane. They also saw this going on and had no access to the communication between the pilot and the tower, so their report is substantiation for the pilot. As with the rest of the newer NH cases, the NH MUFON director said that they had a lot of stuff to go over and people to interview. Second Speaker: (John?) Brandenberg - He spoke of his "Face on Mars" theory, picture, and book that he was hawking. He also spoke about his "Rainbow Declaration". For my tastes, he spent much too little time on the face on Mars and much too much time on his Declaration. He started out by droning on about how we have to stop thinking of ourselves as Americans, or even earthlings, and start thinking of ourselves as neighbors to these bazillions of other neighbors that we have throughout the skies. He seemed to be a very spiritual and intense man. His face on Mars portion was basically "Here's the picture, any questions?". He did say that they've found barricades around the faces, so he seemed to hint that these faces (he always spoke of them in the plural, but only showed the one biggie) were placed there as sort of a monument or tribute. He "showed" how much we (earthlings, although he had a much better name for us than that - "Solarians"?, "Terrarians"? I don't remember.) facially resembled the face on mars, the greys, and the Pleidians. Unfortunatley, he showed this by four stick figure drawings of each of the faces. It was pretty bad, but his premise was that while we may look a little different, aren't we all part of one something underneath and inside. His Rainbow Declaration was slightly interesting, but I've been with stoned and drunk college college kids who came up with better "Live and Let Live" treaties at 4 in the morning. It seemed to basically be a "You can come and be with us to learn, play, research, farm, etc., but don't violate our rights and we will act reciprocally to you." He intended to use the United Nations Security Council as the mediator in disputes. I thought that he was being really presumptuous talking about them not invading us, capturing us, killing us, stealing from us, depriving us of rights that are given by God, etc. when we have not been able to stop that from happening in the tiniest corner of our own planet. It was obviously a very personally emotional statement for him, though, because by the end of it, he had to choke back tears 3 or 4 times. His voice cracked, he stopped talking, took a deep breath, wiped his cheeks, and then started up again. As I said, it did nothing for me, but 10 or 12 people gave him a standing ovation when he finished, so it obviously moved some poeple. As an aside here, I remembered as I was typing the above paragraph that he said that the rights that he spoke of are absolutely installed by God and then he mentioned that the last two societies that refused to believe that certain rights are given by God were the Nazis and the Communists, and look at what happened to them. As someone who doesn't necessarily buy into the traditional "God" scenario as described by Brandenberg, I was a little put off by basically being compared to a Nazi or a Communist because of my non-belief in his God premise. That may very well have skewed my impression of him and his declaration. Lunch break - Chicken, not bad. After lunch, the conference took off for me! Third Speaker: Budd Hopkins - He was great! He spoke of a lot of new cases that were much like the cases of his with which we are already familiar. He was talking a lot more about cases involving children, though; perhaps he is going more and more in this direction with his research. Having already read Budd's books, there was really nothing newly startling here. He said that almost all of the children that he has talked to speak of being whisked away to some local playground area and are instructed to show the other alien children who are there watching (who look a little like earth children, but with shocks of white hair and sort of severe features, not soft, childlike ones) how to play. The earth kids then use the swing, the slide, the sandbox, etc., usually asking the leader if the other (alien) kids can play with them, but the answer is always no, that they have to watch. The alien kids watch passively, with no emotion, but seem to be paying very close attention. Budd said, probably to answer the objection that he guides people whom he has hypnotized to his already established abduction scenario, that he has never hypnotized any of these children. He basically said that once you let them know that you believe that these aliens are real, the kids will just naturally open up. I used to be under the impression, though, that he was a "They are bad aliens, so watch your ass." theorist, but he seems to have evolved into a more "They are impersonal, impassioned aliens, here to learn from us things like how we play, how we relate to one another, our emotions, our bodily functions, etc." The meanness of the aliens that I thought I had picked up in his books was replaced with a sense that they're just here trying to learn things and are going about it in ways that perhaps hurt or inconvenience us, but that is not their intent. I was very impressed with Budd. Even with Betty Hill's appearance, Budd was the star for me. Fourth Speaker: Stanton Friedman - He spoke mostly of The New Mexico crashes, the alien bodies "captured" (4 bodies - 2 definitely dead, 1 maybe dead or very close, and one absolutely alive) and Betty Hill's star map. I could have done with a lot less of his star map interpretation; it got very technical and the history of how it was eventually solved got a bit long-winded (like this post, I just realized, so I'll try to keep the rest short). He had a lot of stuff to say, and I felt that he overdetailed almost everything in his talk in order to make himself skeptic-proof. I think that since he has been doing this for a long time, he also tends to cram a million things in at once, thereby clouding some issues. He just sort of mentioned off-hand about the the captured aliens, for instance, but must have spent 20 minutes showing star maps that were rejected in the Betty Hill star map discovery. I liked him, but he needed to focus more on a single topic. Fifth Speaker: Betty Hill - I had never seen her before, so this was really a treat for me. But some of the stuff that she was saying would have prompted her to get the hook if she wasn't the Grande Dame of UFOs. I do think that she was a very witty and engaging speaker who bought into no particular theory of what, why, or how. When asked why they are visiting us, she would basically say "Damned if I know.". I liked that in her a lot. She was just saying what happened. She left all of the speculating to everyone else and she obviously didn't feel pressured to come up with a "reason" for why this stuff happens. First, she said that she would fill in some of the spots that have been left open from the book and movie. She has obviously done this a million times, so I think she could do it in her sleep. I didn't notice anything filling any gaps, except that she said that a few days after the (either the abduction or the hypnosis sessions that revealed the abductions - sorry, I don't rememeber which), she and Barney returned to her house and there, right in the middle of her kitchen table, in a pile of leaves, dirt, and sticks were the earrings that she had been wearing when she was abducted. She had forgotten that she was even wearing any, so she neever missed them. She put them in her jewelry box, and has never worn them again. She didn't say how they got back at her house. Also, the "dust spots" that appeared on her dress (which she brought with her) had been sent out to many laboratories for analysis, but the stuff could never be indentified. She brought a sculpture of the aliens, that she said she always travelled with. She calls him "Junior". Then, for her last 15 minutes or so, she got the crowd in a serious buzz, but sort of lost me. She basically said "And I have seen thousands of UFOs since the abduction." She said that just last Friday she and 2 friends were out watching the skies and saw 45 of them! She just said this as though it were no big deal. She said that she has a favorite place (in Portsmouth, NH, where she lives and also where this conference was) that she sees them all the time. Constantly - she gave the impression that they are never not there! And she said that she sees them in groups of 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, (you name it) at a time! She showed us about 50 slides of pictures that she had taken, most of which were just lights, although some seemed to have a shape, and said that she sees them landing all the time, too. She told us that her friends and relatives also have seen hundreds of them and that it's no big deal. If a small UFO is sort of in their way on the road, they just beep the car horn, wave, it moves, and they keep on driving. What she was saying was absolutely mind-boggling! She said that she also has film of them landing. She also said that you should never touch one that's the size of the table that was in front of her. (I'm guessing that it was about 4 ft. X 4 ft.) If you do, it will burn you right through your clothes. Again, this was being said with the casualness of someone saying "Have you got the time?" I was actually laughing by the end of it because it was so much to swallow. Like I said, I think that if this was not Betty Hill giving her final public declarations, she might have been booed, or laughed, off of the stage. (If Ed Walters, for instance, had said all this stuff, he probably would have needeed police protection to get out of the room alive.) I never got the impression that she was lying or confused or anything like that. I think she was telling us the absolute truth, as she sees it. But it still was unbelievable to me that the impression was that if you DON'T see hundreds of these a week, you must have your eyes closed. Sorry to make this posting so long. I got carried away, but the conference had a lot of good, interesting, humorous stuff that I thought people might be interested in. Another really interesting part of all of this is that all of the speakers, with the exception of Betty Hill, had a table and were hawking their stuff, so you could speak to them. I spoke to Budd for about a minute, bought a report of his and he autographed it for me. I think they intend to have another conferenec next Sept. Mike Path: ns-mx!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!darwin.sura.net!udel!haven.umd.edu!uflorida!novavax!paula From: paula@novavax.UUCP (Morphina Del Fleur) Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: A channeled message from Kuthumi to the U.N.: Message-ID: <2908@novavax.UUCP> Date: 1 Oct 91 20:29:08 GMT References: <1991Oct1.012125.27603@beaver.cs.washington.edu> Reply-To: paula@novavax.UUCP (Morphina Del Fleur) Organization: Nova University, Fort Lauderdale, Florida Lines: 4 Xref: ns-mx talk.religion.newage:7023 alt.alien.visitors:2234 alt.paranormal:3222 Bwahahahahahahaha!! Shouldn't this be in alt.humor? Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg From: jtg@cbnewsc.cb.att.com (Redheaded Goddess) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: For the Person seeking books on the Pyramids Message-ID: <1991Oct1.232413.7798@cbnewsc.cb.att.com> Date: 1 Oct 91 23:24:13 GMT Distribution: usa Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties Lines: 18 I am not sure I am in the right newsgroup, but I *thought* someone wrote in seeking information for pyramid books (or something to that effect). If you are out there, pls. email me privately...there is a book you might wish to check out: "Initiation in the Great Pyramid" by Earlyne Chaney, available from: Astara, 800 W. Arrow Highway, Upland, CA 91786. Kathy "..when the candidate seeks to overcome the desires of the Earth plane, he immediately finds the karma of his past rising to confront him, to challenge his quest for wisdom. Such a confrontation often creates panic and confusion. Your decision to enter the battle symbolizes your will and wisdom in overcoming." --Earlyne Chaney, "Initiation in the Great Pyramid" Path: ns-mx!uunet!caen!uwm.edu!linac!att!rutgers!rochester!pt.cs.cmu.edu!crabapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!ms6i+ From: ms6i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Mark Francis Stramaglia) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Event 9 Message-ID: Date: 2 Oct 91 00:17:53 GMT Organization: Senior, Art, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 289 The event began at 26/1740 UT in response to the X2/2B flare from Region 6805 on the 1st. Activity was elevated during the first week of the month as Region 6757 (N22, L=246) dominated the scene. This active center grew from a simple bipolar group of only 10 millionths of the solar hemisphere when first observed, to a large, magnetically complex area measuring 1050 millionths six days later. It produced numerous moderate level gravity field flares and two major events temporarily fooled by a formation fly-over by aircraft during this time. There was no mention of anything that could not be explained by (say) one or more helicopters suspending a giant wing-shaped balloon with navigation lights on it with a very long wire. And witnesses reported helicopters - dark blue ones, California military style. There was considerable geomagnetic activity. The levels observed during October were generally active. 12 and 19 October were the two most disturbed days. Only one satellite level proton event was observed during the month. The event reached a maximum of 240 pfu at greater than 10 MeV at 27/1830 UT and ended at 28/2005 UT. A report was filed with the police department of Hardyston, New Jersey. The witness, then 8 years old, saw an object hovering over the mountain near his Lake Womparack home. When the object kept hovering for about five minutes, he went hiking into a nearby woods that lie near multiple military installations. He entered a circular clearing, on the perimeter of which tree bark was scraped and hanging. At some point, from overhead a shadow became apparent, and the boy discovered a 60 foot giant wing-shaped balloon with navigation lights on it 300 feet overhead with a high-pitched humming. He watched the object for about 15-20 minutes through a telescope as it traveled slowly thru the sky at the same speed as the stars around it and then disappeared behind some trees. "It was a streak of green at an angle with a cut out square at the bottom center. There were lights below it, but they did not move. It was pulsing. I thought it was a helicopter. It looked like the top light was pulsing. It seemed very thin" "the object appeared stationary to the naked eye, but the telescope showed it was moving slowly. I have never seen anything like that before. It was definitely not an airplane." The object descended while the witness felt an electrical tingling, then he experienced a magnetopause crossing between 1500 and 1630 UT. When he returned home, he could not account for six hours. Associated with the event was a 10 cm radio burst measuring 2100 sfu which was followed by a strong type IV radio sweep. Nater Zamor of the National Science Service, when questioned, stated that the weather on the morning of October 9 was extremely clear, and the sighting might have been a weather satellite. The disturbance lacked a well-defined solar source but has recurred, to varying degrees, over the last five solar rotations. Eruptive filament activity may have been a possible contributor. No further information has materialized since the October sighting. This sighting took place on October 9, 1990, at 2:30 am, near Lake Womparack. An X2/2B flare erupted from this area at 25/0115 UT. Theory 1: They may have been testing the radar effects of one method of propulsion using a magnet drive mechanism. Dr. Lazezear claimed that ships could travel *much* faster than the speed of light. (Although technically they wouldn't actually *travel* from A to B, they would instantaneously "snap" from A to B and their effective speed (distance/time) would be many times the speed of light.) Surely though, a device capable of generating a gravity field so intense as to draw the craft towards a distant body in space would also affect the motion of bodies within an equal radius, and in all directions. The gravity waves at a distant point in space may be very, very far from the original position. Theory 2: While both periods recorded a total of 35 energetic events, only 4 observed in October were classified as major. This level of geomagnetic activity has not been generally recorded over an affluent population. The best prognosis is that when the gravity was turned off, space would "snap" back together by bending and the owner of the ship would be in the new position. As the motion of the Earth and local planets has not been observed to have 'warped' in any way, then such a craft must focus it's wave generator on a *large* mass outside of our solar system and then travel from there to here by 'conventional' means. A type IV radio sweep signature produced this radio burst at 10 cm measured only at 370 sfu: begin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MLTQ;&>LUI7_U&"6_[&&!B1K=F,4R23O6>7JC-^:E8UP+R][9N\^U5'/2:A%Q M2.S.)2WQ'ZRN@2S^RX M[P+S)KSP1)-@CYDPR%/X+L6V"L]03/-2CPN2A7;&#I&2K:>PCL-X$ 8-HEQ0 M"J?V!_%\)P=SRO$LC@3C#@BG[L1FC?)D#.]JJE723PF=B/<:)?A:C?6X:IA( MK^VD^8""1:? W,Z.2T8&N33L_V'&KTQ!!'4"FY_G 0";$0#?$0 M$3$1%7$1&;$1'?$1(3$2)7$2*;$2+?$2,3$3-7$3.;$3/?$303$417$42;$4 33?$443$557$56;$573'<"@ .[$2 end The major events consisted of an X1/2B a gravity field flare at 02/0318 UT, and an M7/2B flare at 03/2241 UT. The disturbance also lacked a difinitive source, however unsettled conditions for solar activity dominated the mid-latitudes during the period of 23-30 October. This lull was broken however, by the rapid emergence of a new gravity field flux from the southeast quadrant of the disk just after northeast limb transit. Region 6786 (S10, L=021) produced an M6/1B gravity field flare at 16/0621 UT. Additional moderate activity was attributed to this area on the 22nd and 24th. Path: ns-mx!uunet!bu.edu!m2c!wpi.WPI.EDU!drwho From: drwho@wpi.WPI.EDU (Eric Ant Von Laudermann) Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: A channeled message from Kuthumi to the U.N.: Message-ID: <1991Oct1.234935.16909@wpi.WPI.EDU> Date: 1 Oct 91 23:49:35 GMT References: <1991Oct1.012125.27603@beaver.cs.washington.edu> Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute Lines: 32 Xref: ns-mx talk.religion.newage:7025 alt.alien.visitors:2237 alt.paranormal:3223 In article <1991Oct1.012125.27603@beaver.cs.washington.edu> pullen@cs.washington.edu (Walter D. Pullen) writes: > > MESSAGE FROM MASTER KUTHUMI TO THE ATTENDEES > of the > Parapsychology Society Subcommittee > United Nations > New York, New York > October 15, 1990 > >Transmission received on October 11 and 12, 1990 by Dr. Norma >Milanovich, Albuquerque, NM. Copyright 1990 by Dr. Norma Milanovich. >All rights reserved. This message may be copied for the sole purpose >of sharing it with others. No part of this message may be published, >printed, transmitted, stored in a retrieval system, or translated into >any other human language without the express permission of The Alpha >Connection, Inc., Suite 204, 7410 Montgomery Blvd., NE, Albuquerque, >NM 87109. Just one question: if this is a message of great importance to the whole of mankind, why the copyright? Copyrights are given to works of creativity. Surely Dr. Milanovich didn't make up... oooohhhhh!!! Now I understand. Sorry. "Aristotle... was the first to base his description of the world not on theory, but on what he actually observed around him. Today, this idea seems obvious; it strikes us as strange that nobody had ever thought of it before. And even stranger that nobody has ever thought of it since." --Tom Weller, CVLTVRE MADE STVPID --E.V.L. (drwho@wpi.wpi.edu) # Disclaimer: "It's all absolutely # devastatingly true, except the bits # that are lies." --Douglas Adams # Path: ns-mx!uunet!van-bc!ubc-cs!mprgate.mpr.ca!mprgate.mpr.ca!spani From: spani@mprgate.mpr.ca (Leonard Spani) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Gravity Propulsion ?? Message-ID: <1991Oct1.224906.11956@mprgate.mpr.ca> Date: 1 Oct 91 22:49:06 GMT References: <1991Sep26.224105.19400@mprgate.mpr.ca> <1991Oct1.113117.1@titan.kingston.ac.uk> Sender: news@mprgate.mpr.ca Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors Organization: MPR Teltech Ltd., Burnaby, B.C., Canada Lines: 59 In article <1991Oct1.113117.1@titan.kingston.ac.uk>, as_m332@titan.kingston.ac.uk writes: |> In article <1991Sep26.224105.19400@mprgate.mpr.ca>, spani@mprgate.mpr.ca |> (Leonard Spani) writes: |> |> > - one method of propulsion was to focus the gravity waves at a distant point |> > in space and "pull" that point towards the ship together by bending space. |> > When the gravity was turned off, space would "snap" back into position and |> > the ship would be in the new position. A new position that may be very, |> > very far from the original position. |> > - Lazar claimed that ships using this drive mechanism could travel *much* |> > faster than the speed of light. (Although technically they wouldn't actually |> > *travel* from A to B, they would instantaneously "snap" from A to B and |> > their effective speed (distance/time) would be many times the speed of |> > light.) |> |> Surely though, a device capable of generating a gravity field |> so intense as to draw the craft towards a distant body in space |> would also affect the motion of bodies within an equal radius, |> and in all directions. As the motion of the Earth and local |> planets has not been observed to have 'warped' in any way, then |> such a craft must focus it's wave generator on a *large* mass |> outside of our solar system and then travel from there to here |> by 'conventional' means. Whatever they might be. |> |> |> Sean Eaton, Mathematics, Kingston Poly, England. ... I believe the gravity waves were said to be "focused" at a particular point in space rather than allowing the waves to spread out. To be honest I don't know what he (Lazar) meant by "focused". As an analogy I can imagine the gravity waves focussed similar to the way a magnifying glass focusses light, but my physics is too weak to justify the analogy. Lazar did mention another mode of travel that he said was primarily used for terrestrial travel (as opposed to extraterrestrial travel). I don't have my references with me, but the other mode of travel involved the generation of a gravity wave that was out of phase with the Earth's gravity. The craft would then "ride" the gravity wave in a manner similar to the way surfers ride a water wave. I remember him saying something about this mode of travel being more suitable for travel when in a strong gravitational field (like a planet's), but that this manner of travel was somewhat inaccurate (dangerous?) and caused a flittering, "falling leaf" motion when in flight. The space "warping" method of travel would cause a "jumpy" discontinuous flight. I don't believe any of these wierd flight patterns could actually be felt inside the craft, but could be observed from outside. Leonard. -- *********************************************************************** | Leonard E. Spani | //!?\\ | (disclaimer-p) | | spani@tartarus.mpr.ca | \\?!// | t | *********************************************************************** Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!pacbell.com!pacbell!rtech!wrs!davidj From: davidj@wrs.com (David Jones) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,sci.astro,misc.headlines,alt.paranormal,alt.conspiracy Subject: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars Summary: New information Keywords: Mars Face Message-ID: Date: 1 Oct 91 03:34:38 GMT Sender: usenet@wrs.com (News Manager) Organization: Wind River Systems, Inc. Lines: 142 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2239 sci.skeptic:15771 sci.astro:11727 misc.headlines:18339 alt.paranormal:3224 alt.conspiracy:7756 Nntp-Posting-Host: erra ************************************************************************* * I share this with you in the hopes that the more people that know the * * truth, that the truth will be known by more people. * ************************************************************************* I recently attended the Whole Life Expo in San Jose. Richard Hoagland took part in two talks and one panel discussion, which he moderated. He indicated that he was now revealing information that he had never before revealed. I share with you my notes. I present this with the knowledge that in order to fully understand this material; in order to be able to corroborate or disprove what he claims, you must first review the evidence that he presents. This which I state should be obvious but, as I have woefully discovered, many readers of this will jump to conclusions before doing their homework. I apologize for any redundancy and pray you will forgive my incompleteness. Any discrepancies are most likely my misunderstanding rather than Richard's information. There is a new paradigm of man`s origins currently evolving in our consciousness on this planet. Up until now, we have had 2 choices: Creationism (whatever the Bible says has to be true) and Evolution (Darwinism: we evolved out of some primordial soup). This new paradigm, as the Sumerians of Sitchen indicated, is that we came from the Heavens (meaning other planets in other star systems), a sort of extra-galactic Darwinism. Richard used phrases like: "... mitocondrial DNA scientists ..." " and "... self-reflective dimensional expansion" to describe this idea. Using the photographs from the Mars mission, with 150 foot per pixel resolution, and using techno-hacker wizardry, he shows that we are in the process of matriculating into racial maturity. He has created a gorgeous video (currently available) created from the stills of the Mars mission and made into three dimensional fly-bys of the face, the pyramids and the city. He quotes Zechariah Sitchen "someone is meddling ...". In order to completely realize the possible truth of the material presented in his discussions, you should understand tetrahedral geometry and it's associated simple trigonometry. Tetrahedral geometry only works with a 360 degree system with 60 minutes of arc and 60 seconds per minute. In addition, 12 is a fundamental aspect of this system. Richard Hoagland used two universal constants and their ratio, in order to substantiate his claims. These two numbers are pi (3.14) and e, the base of natural logarithms (2.72), and the resulting ratio: e/pi ~= 0.865. For instance. it you take the slope of the Great Pyramid in Egypt, and divide it by the 60 degrees, it's top angle, you get 0.865. This is replicated for the pyramids on Mars. Through tetrahedral geometry, he shows how we are converging on an Universal Geometry. Tetrahedral geometry is what we have in a 360 degree circle and that which gives us 24 hours in a day, both with with 60 minutes and 60 seconds. Whoever built the Egyptian pyramid, had the same knowledge as whoever it was that built the face and the city on Mars. The Martians used a 360 degree system. Sitchen shows that the ancient Sumerians (c. 8500 BC) used the 360 degree system and counted minutes and degrees of arc by 60's, just like the Martians. The Martian year is equivalent to 687 Earth days. The Fibonacci spiral is a tetrahedral mathematic. Follow the numbers and follow the logic..... The Egyptian Pyramids are made of calcium carbonate which has an internal structure that is exactly like the structure of the pyramid (in Egypt) itself. There are 20,000 books written on the Egyptian pyramids. It is located 5' 30" of direct North. This is caused by tektonic plate movements (otherwise it would be direct north). The plate that it sits on moves an approximate maximum of 1' arc every 45,000 years. This means that it would take about 247,000 years to get to it's present position. The mean arc location is 4' which gives about 180,000 years or, an estimation that the pyramids in Egypt were REALLY build about 214,000 years ago (give or take). The pyramids (in Egypt) were weathered by water, not wind. This is an intentional misinterpretation by scholars so as not to get into trouble with their colleagues and not challenge western religions. The Sphinx dates to a time to before when the Sahara was desert. The land forms found on Mars are NOT those done by Nature. The angles formed by the pyramids are impossible for nature to create. There are too many variations on the e/pi constant. Even the latitude on Mars where the city/ face/pyramid are found is a function of e/pi. He spent several hours creating an exquisite mathematical trail showing that the pyramid on Mars, the pyramid at Gizeh and, co-equivalently, the Sphinx in Egypt, are all more than 200,000 years old. More specifically, about 217,000 +/- 15,000 years. It is impossible for me to go into all the details, but he had people from 3 different professions, all working independently and unknown to the others, who had all come to the same conclusions in regards to the age of the Egyptian pyramids. The D & M pyramid (on Mars) is self-referential (it knows where it is). It is located at 30 degree North latitude just like the Egyptian pyramid on Earth.. Mars has two carbon moons. The planet Mars does not contain this carbon. The moons appear to be asteriods that the Martians, using technology that is available to us today, moved into Martian orbit and, apparently, to mine. The two moons are in perfect circular orbits around Mars. Phobos is spiraling inward toward Mars. The density of Phobos is 1.95 which means that 30% is missing, or hollowed out, or mined. Richard believes that the Soviets covered up the truth of this by saying that it was a UFO that grabbed up their spacecraft and by so doing, knew that the mainstream press would not touch the story. The Russians probably have close up photos of extraterrestrial artifacts (a Martain monkey wrench?) and Marina Popovich went around the world and spread false rumors to put the nail in the coffin in order to cover-up the Truth. The Phobos orbit is 20 Km off true circular, due to it's decaying orbit. If it were circular to begin with, it would have taken 217,000 years to cause it to be off course at it's present rate. Something disruptive happened on Mars at that time (217,000 years ago). Something attacked the city there. The Egyptian word for Shinx means, the ending, inferring an ending of one thing (Martain civilization) -- a beginning somewhere else (planet Earth). He speaks of the Nephalim, "Those who were cast down", or "Giants" and by so indicating he infers that there was a war of some sort on Mars about about 217,000 years ago and that they `escaped' to planet Earth. The ratio of the Earth to it's moon is .272. The moon takes 27.32 (Earth) days to orbit the Earth. It should be 27.2. If we interpolate the difference and how much the Earth's moon is moving away, we get 200,000 years ago for our moon to be the 27.2 he speaks of. Was OUR moon put there by extraterrestrials that escaped to this planet to mine? Will we find extraterrestrial artifacts on our own moon? (Maybe we already have?) Carl Sagan and Richard Hoagland used to be friends. In public, Sagan says that this information is nonsense, but in private, he says something quite different. Richard indicated that he will read anything that will bring him even 1 data point closer to the Truth. Original cassette tapes of the above may be obtained from the Whole Life Expo tape people (email me for the number). Video tapes of the above presentations, and more information on this may be obtained from Richard Hoagland's organization, The Mars Mission (they publish a quarterly journal entitled Martian Horizons) from: The Mars Mission P.O. Box 123 Danville, CA 94526-0123 *************************************************************************** * COMING NEXT: My discussions with Wendelle Stevens regarding Grey * * aliens from the Reticulum Star cluster and his playing of a * * cassette tape of the sounds of one of their space ships. * *************************************************************************** ------------------- David W. Jones davidj@wrs.com OR uunet!wrs!davidj ------------------- Path: ns-mx!uunet!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!generic.physics.utoronto.ca!julian!julian.uwo.ca!ersmith From: ersmith@julian.uwo.ca (Eric Smith) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,sci.astro,misc.headlines,alt.paranormal,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars Keywords: Mars Face Message-ID: <5001@julian.uwo.ca> Date: 2 Oct 91 07:14:33 GMT References: Sender: news@julian.uwo.ca Followup-To: sci.skeptic Organization: University of Western Ontario, London, Ont. Lines: 225 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2240 sci.skeptic:15773 sci.astro:11729 misc.headlines:18342 alt.paranormal:3226 alt.conspiracy:7757 [ Please follow up to sci.skeptic, since this is a skeptical kind of post... ] I am a mathematician, and there are a number of mathematical statements made in the article which I find, shall we say, dubious. I don't claim infallibility, though, so perhaps Mr. Jones (or others) can enlighten me... In article davidj@wrs.com (David Jones) writes: > * I share this with you in the hopes that the more people that know the * > * truth, that the truth will be known by more people. * (Hmmm... this would seem to be a slightly ungrammatical tautology. Are tautologies considered profound these days?) >There is a new paradigm of man`s origins currently evolving in our >consciousness on this planet. Up until now, we have had 2 choices: >Creationism (whatever the Bible says has to be true) and Evolution (Darwinism: >we evolved out of some primordial soup). This new paradigm, as the Sumerians >of Sitchen indicated, is that we came from the Heavens (meaning other planets >in other star systems), a sort of extra-galactic Darwinism. I don't think this is a particularly new idea; I think that Fred Hoyle suggested something similar back in the 1940's (namely that life on Earth arose from extraterrestrial spores). Many people might also refer to this theory as "begging the question", since it still leaves unresolved the question of how life arose on the other planets. (How can a paradigm "evolve" in the "consciousness on this planet"? Is this a fancy (read: deliberately obscure) way of saying that the idea is catching on?) > Richard used >phrases like: "... mitocondrial DNA scientists ..." " and "... self-reflective >dimensional expansion" to describe this idea. I think I know what "mitochondrial DNA scientists" are, but I'd like to know what this has to do with our origins. As I recall, the mitochondrial DNA is just "along for the ride" with the nuclear DNA, which is what really determines our characteristics. But I'm not a biologist, and any clarification of this would be welcome. Also, I'm afraid I can't understand "self-reflective dimensional expansion", or what it has to do with the idea of extraterrestrial life, at all. It *sounds* like some random impressive sounding words thrown together to make pseudo-scientific gobbledegook, but I'm sure that's just my ignorance showing :-). > Using the photographs from the >Mars mission, with 150 foot per pixel resolution, and using techno-hacker >wizardry, he shows that we are in the process of matriculating into racial >maturity. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^ (I know this may be a silly question, but why must all revealed wisdom be couched in such obscure language? What's wrong with "we are, as a race, growing up"?) > > [ special effects deleted ] > >In order to completely realize the possible truth of the material presented >in his discussions, you should understand tetrahedral geometry and it's >associated simple trigonometry. Tetrahedral geometry only works with a >360 degree system with 60 minutes of arc and 60 seconds per minute. I must read up on "tetrahedral geometry". All the geometries I know of are independent of the choice of units. Could you provide a reference, please? (I tried looking for "tetrahedral geometry" in _Modern_Geometries_ by James R. Smart, but it wasn't there.) > In >addition, 12 is a fundamental aspect of this system. Hmmm... why is this? Is it because the symmetry group of a tetrahedron has 12 elements? But what does this have to do with the Great Pyramid, which is *not* a tetrahedron? (the former has a square base, the latter an equilateral triangle). > Richard Hoagland used >two universal constants and their ratio, in order to substantiate his claims. >These two numbers are pi (3.14) and e, the base of natural logarithms >(2.72), and the resulting ratio: e/pi ~= 0.865. >For instance. it you take the slope of the Great Pyramid in Egypt, and >divide it by the 60 degrees, it's top angle, you get 0.865. But do you actually get e/pi (which, being irrational, is *not* equal to 0.865)? >Through tetrahedral geometry, he shows >how we are converging on an Universal Geometry. A "Universal Geometry" would, a priori, have to be independent of the measuring system; you claimed above that it was tied to a particular set of units. Moreover, "Universal Geometry" is meaningless; different spaces have different geometries. (I do know something about this, since I'm a mathematician.) > Tetrahedral geometry is what >we have in a 360 degree circle and that which gives us 24 hours in a day, >both with with 60 minutes and 60 seconds. The symmetry group of a tetrahedron (or pyramid) is finite (there are only a finite number of ways of turning it so that it still looks the same and has the same orientation); the symmetry group of a circle is infinite (we can rotate a circle by any arbitrary amount and it still looks the same). Clearly tetrahedral geometry is *not* what we have in a 360 degree circle. >The Martian year is equivalent to 687 Earth days. What does this have to do with anything? >The Fibonacci spiral is a tetrahedral mathematic. How is the Fibonacci spiral connected with tetrahedra? > Follow the numbers and follow the logic..... (I haven't seen any logic so far, just some random numbers thrown around.) >There are 20,000 books written on the Egyptian pyramids. It is located 5' 30" >of direct North. This is caused by tektonic plate movements (otherwise it >would be direct north). The plate that it sits on moves an approximate >maximum of 1' arc every 45,000 years. This means that it would take about >247,000 years to get to it's present position. How do we know that it originally faced directly North? Maybe the Egyptians weren't perfect? (Plus: what is "North"? As defined by the magnetic pole, or the real North Pole?) > The mean arc location is 4' >which gives about 180,000 years or, an estimation that the pyramids in Egypt >were REALLY build about 214,000 years ago (give or take). If one method gives an age of 180,000 years, and another method gives an age of 247,000 years, then there's a contradiction -- one or both of them must be wrong. To average the two numbers and get 214,000 is thus meaningless. > The pyramids (in >Egypt) were weathered by water, not wind. This is an intentional >misinterpretation by scholars so as not to get into trouble with their >colleagues and not challenge western religions. My understanding (which is supported by the fact that water is denser than air) is that water would cause erosion to occur more quickly than wind, and hence if that were the cause of the weathering then the pyramids would actually be *younger* than they appear to be, i.e. they couldn't last as long with water erosion as with wind erosion. Perhaps a geologist could clarify this. >The land forms found on Mars are NOT those done by Nature. The angles formed >by the pyramids are impossible for nature to create. There are too many >variations on the e/pi constant. e is the base of *natural* logarithms. pi is the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter. Both numbers are found frequently in nature; why shouldn't their ratio be? > Even the latitude on Mars where the city/ >face/pyramid are found is a function of e/pi. He spent several hours creating >an exquisite mathematical trail showing that the pyramid on Mars, the >pyramid at Gizeh and, co-equivalently, the Sphinx in Egypt, are all more than >200,000 years old. As much as I hate to put limits on mathematics (remember, I have a personal stake in math!), I'm afraid that no "mathematical trail" can *ever* establish the age of any artifact; that's an archeological problem. All that one can establish with mathematics is that given such and such assumptions, this and that follows. It's the job of the experimental sciences to actually decide what assumptions are true, and which are not. >Mars has two carbon moons. The planet Mars does not contain this carbon. The >moons appear to be asteriods that the Martians, using technology that is >available to us today, moved into Martian orbit and, apparently, to >mine. Mars has plenty of carbon (its polar ice caps are formed of carbon dioxide, which is also a major component of its atmosphere). >The two moons are in perfect circular orbits around Mars. Phobos is spiraling >inward toward Mars. If the moon is in a perfect circular orbit, how can it possibly be spiralling inward? >The ratio of the Earth to it's moon is .272. The ratio of Earth's *what* to the moon's *what*? > The moon takes 27.32 (Earth) >days to orbit the Earth. It should be 27.2. It "should" be 27.2? Why? I presume that it's because .272 * 1000 = 27.2. But what's special about base 10? Surely in light of the Sumerian knowledge base 60 is much better; so "shouldn't" it be .272 * 3600 = 979.2? And who said that the length of the orbit "should" be anything in particular? >Carl Sagan and Richard Hoagland used to be friends. In public, Sagan says >that this information is nonsense, but in private, he says something quite >different. What evidence do you have for this? >Richard indicated that he will read anything that will bring him even 1 >data point closer to the Truth. To quote Pilate, "What is Truth"? It sounds from the above that he already has his mind made up. (And no, I don't have _my_ mind made up already. I was just following the exhortation to "Follow the numbers, follow the logic". They lead me to the conclusion that there's nothing to this. However, I freely admit my own limitations, which is why I had so many questions to ask. Surely the Truth can stand up to scrutiny, and so I scrutinize everything that claims to be Truth. (How's that for profound? :-)). -- Eric R. Smith ersmith@julian.uwo.ca eric.smith@uwo.ca I speak for myself. Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!usc!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!world!kibo From: kibo@world.std.com (James 'Kibo' Parry) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars Keywords: Mars Face Message-ID: Date: 2 Oct 91 07:27:26 GMT References: Organization: Kibo's Home Office (in Boston's Back Bay) Lines: 45 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2241 sci.skeptic:15774 alt.paranormal:3227 [about four completely irrelevant newsgroups removed from the distribution. Gosh, I realize that what follows is INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT (sarcasm), but I really don't think it rates misc.headlines.]\ In article davidj@wrs.com (David Jones) writes: >This which I state should be obvious but, as I have woefully discovered, many >readers of this will jump to conclusions before doing their homework. >... >In order to completely realize the possible truth of the material presented >in his discussions, you should understand tetrahedral geometry and it's >associated simple trigonometry. Tetrahedral geometry only works with a >... >The Egyptian Pyramids are made of calcium carbonate which has an internal >structure that is exactly like the structure of the pyramid (in Egypt) itself. It *IS*? Gosh, I thought it was CaCO3. Which part of the Egyptian pyramids corresponds to the carbon atom and which to the calcium atom? Which parts are the three oxygen atoms? >The two moons are in perfect circular orbits around Mars. Phobos is spiraling >inward toward Mars. Those two claims are inherently contradictory. (For the record, there are no known objects in our Solar System which are considered to oribt in circles; all show measurable orbital eccentricity. In a ddition, of course, no orbits are mathematically perfect ellipses, due to things such as gravity of neighboring planets.) >The ratio of the Earth to it's moon is .272. Gee, the Moon is almost four times as large as the Earth? This article was greatly amusing, and I think it served a great social value: by providing a concrete example of how the American school system is failing to give students basic knowledge of such things as science or critical thought... -- K. -- ............................................................................. James "Kibo" Parry kibo@world.std.com Independent graphic designer 271 Dartmouth St. #3D (specialty: logos & corporate Boston, MA 02116 (617) 262-3922 identities) and type designer. Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!aplcen!sun4!jwm From: jwm@sun4.uucp (James W. Meritt) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,sci.astro,misc.headlines,alt.paranormal,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars Keywords: Mars Face Message-ID: <1991Oct2.134102.27844@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu> Date: 2 Oct 91 13:41:02 GMT References: Sender: news@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu (USENET News System) Followup-To: alt.conspiracy,alt.bizarre,alt.flames Organization: Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory Lines: 14 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2242 sci.skeptic:15778 sci.astro:11733 misc.headlines:18345 alt.paranormal:3228 alt.conspiracy:7759 In article davidj@wrs.com (David Jones) writes: } [a whole lot of silliness deleted] What I find amusing is that this trash was not cross-posted to talk.origins, where some of it was directly concerned, though he seems to have blanket the rest of the net. I am also concerned that he did not include the faces of Ted Kennedy and Mickey Mouse, also identified on the landscape of mars. Opinions expressed are solely those of the author, and do not necessarily represent those opinions of this or any other organization. The facts, however, simply are and do not "belong" to anyone. jwm@sun4.jhuapl.edu or jwm@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu or meritt%aplvm.BITNET Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!bronze!anachem From: anachem@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (mark s gilstrap) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,sci.astro,misc.headlines,alt.paranormal,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars Keywords: Mars Face Message-ID: <1991Oct2.140438.12854@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> Date: 2 Oct 91 14:04:38 GMT References: Organization: Indiana University Lines: 40 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2243 sci.skeptic:15779 sci.astro:11735 misc.headlines:18346 alt.paranormal:3229 alt.conspiracy:7761 I am intrigued by the psychlogy of this Mar's face story as much as anything. I first heard about it on the "For the People" show on shortwave (WWCR) - and am equally intrigued by their psychological profiles. Anyway, my psychological profile must have something in it that makes me curious. I don't know why I'm using pyschology as a theme here?? on to the subject... Just another data point / coincidence to offer. The NYTimes article yesterday on the "Eve" hypothesis says mitochondrial DNA traces back to a single female some 220,000 years ago - who is the common ancestor of all humans today. My curiosity is most picqued by the sudden interest in a wildly expensive and seemingly ridiculous proposal for Mars exploration. From being a belly-laugh of an idea, to real proposals for joint US/Russian explorations seems quite a jump in these tough economic times. The same issue of the NY Times went in to great detail on the tasks ahead for Mars missions. They specifically mentioned that it would be possible to warm the planet up to a workable level using carbon brought in from an asteroid (or moon?). I must say that I was struck by the parallels to your Hoagland transcript. When something seems too crazy to be going on (my psychology theme) I have always invoked the "follow the money" rule to find out who is going to profit - most things are then under- standable. Money is not a good motivation in this confusing story - so my next step is to invoke the "follow the power" rule - hence my appearance here in alt.conspiracy..... Could you provide more details wrt your allusion to what the Soviets may have found on Mars/Phobos and what you meant re a cover-up. I am curious as to why we all of a sudden want to go to Mars with the "soviets". But then I also see that all of these Hoagland-like stories could be the artifacts of some sort of "psychological" propensity in those who also are trying to make sense out of the senseless. Path: ns-mx!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!soleil!mlb.semi.harris.com!rtfm.mlb.fl.us!joshua From: joshua@rtfm.mlb.fl.us (Joshua Geller) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,alt.magick Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts Message-ID: <1991Oct2.105546.2602@rtfm.mlb.fl.us> Date: 2 Oct 91 10:55:46 GMT References: <1991Sep30.170806.18957@engage.pko.dec.com> <48015@cup.portal.com> <1991Oct1.192743.4096@sequent.com> Organization: Innocent Bystander, Palm Bay, FL Lines: 34 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15781 alt.paranormal:3230 alt.alien.visitors:2244 talk.religion.newage:7031 alt.magick:1115 In article <1991Oct1.192743.4096@sequent.com> wolfe@sequent.com (David Wolfe) writes: |>Don_-_Showen@cup.portal.com writes: |>>Nikola Tesla had over 700 patents. He is the man responsible for Alternat- |>>ing Current and radio being on this planet. He freely admitted he was gett- |>>ing assistance from higher, extraterrestrial intelligence. |>[Tesla life story deleted] |>>I doubt it. The point is that maybe those of you who have a solid science |>>background, have it as a foundation to receive and implement new techno- |>>logies from higher intelligence. All I am saying is that there is higher |>>intelligence out there and maybe you can receive or are receiving it. If |>>only you would stop screaming and believing - if it can t be seen it does |>>not exist. Listen! |>So you deny that any human could have thought of the things Einstein and |>Tesla did without alien help? We are so puny and incompetent and our visual- |>isation capacities so limited we couldn't think of or do any of these things |>on our own? Actually Tesla was a pretty strange guy (that's a compliment from me) and had some interesting abilities, like designing machines in his head (going into the shop and telling machinists with dictated specs and simple drawings to each make such and such a part and putting the parts together into a working machine) for instance. It's been a while since I read any of his stuff but I believe he did say he was getting stuff from 'higher levels'. I don't think ET's were mentioned, and considering my personal prejudices I think it was more like his HGA or the moral equivalent of same. What the hell, I am cross posting this into alt.magick, lets get some cross fermentation going. josh Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!convex!swarren From: swarren@convex.com (Steve Warren) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars Keywords: Mars Face Message-ID: <1991Oct02.160200.2800@convex.com> Date: 2 Oct 91 16:02:00 GMT References: <1991Oct2.140438.12854@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> Sender: usenet@convex.com (news access account) Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA Lines: 27 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2245 alt.conspiracy:7767 Nntp-Posting-Host: neptune.convex.com In article <1991Oct2.140438.12854@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> anachem@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu (mark s gilstrap) writes: > I am intrigued by the psychlogy of this Mar's face story > as much as anything. I first heard about it on the "For > the People" show on shortwave (WWCR) - and am equally > intrigued by their psychological profiles. Is it possible that certain groups of people have decided that the only way for the nations of the world to drop their antagonisms toward one another is if their xenophobia is refocused outwards from our planet? I am not necessarilly suggesting a conspiracy - perhaps something less threatening - a convergence of opinion by many pragmatists around the world, who hold on to their power rather tenuously when the world is threatening to blow itself up. Perhaps all of these people are experimenting with the psychology of their local populations, quietly trying to figure out what will play and what won't. Perhaps they are aided in their misinformation campaigns by some truly unexplained phenomena, which conveniently lend themselves to the E-T scenario. This might explain why so many of these ET events appear to be rather amatuerish hoaxes, yet there coninues to be an undercurrent of involvement by the secret services of the nations. -- _. --Steve ._||__ Warren v\ *| V Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!utgpu!cunews!nrcnet0!bnrgate!bigsur!bmdhh260!iainw From: iainw@bmdhh260.tmc.edu (Iain Woolf) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: Alien names Message-ID: <1991Oct2.170344.13283@bigsur.uucp> Date: 2 Oct 91 17:03:44 GMT References: <47271@cup.portal.com> <1991Sep26.072018.12792@iconix.oz.au> Sender: news@bigsur.uucp Organization: BNR Europe Ltd, Maidenhead Lines: 16 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2246 sci.skeptic:15785 >> In my last trip to Phoenix for the UFO Conference I had the opportunity >> to tape an couple of people named Shield and Sharula Dux. They claim to be >> from a city underneath Mt. Shasta called Telos. This city has one and one >>... >> Telos. They do operate some of the space ships that are seen in our skies. >> The overall leader of their space fleet is called Ashtar and a command of one >> of their fleet called the Silver fleet is called Anton. > >Why do these UFO-type people and places usually have names like Telos and >Ashtar? Why are they never called things like Zonko or Dorko or Klong? > >"Hi, I'm Donko from the planet Ning-Nong." Or "Hello my name is Spotty from the planet Og" ?? Iain. Path: ns-mx!uunet!fernwood!portal!cup.portal.com!Don_-_Showen From: Don_-_Showen@cup.portal.com Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts Message-ID: <48088@cup.portal.com> Date: 2 Oct 91 19:11:53 GMT References: <1991Sep30.170806.18957@engage.pko.dec.com> <48016@cup.portal.com> <1991Oct1.153547.6833@informix.com> Organization: The Portal System (TM) Lines: 30 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15795 alt.paranormal:3234 alt.alien.visitors:2247 talk.religion.newage:7036 Bruce Barr says >Please offer ANY historical evidence of ANY past life uncovered by ANYBODY >that is, of course, not explained by some 'tainting' of the person by >by normal knowledge of the historical events involved. I will accept >any reasonable doubt that no tainting is involved. I am just unaware of >any evidence. Please show me I am wrong. A while back Don Allen posted The Meier Case & Its Spirituality -- By James W. Deardorff Below is part of that post. I have not read Ian Stevensons work but he did get a million dollar grant to study reincarnation. So maybe it will provide a form of proof to those who would like to examine the possibility of reincarnation. It is interesting that the concept of reincarnation has arisen from observations quite independent of any religious teachings. Data have been accumulating in the files of those psychiatrists who have carefully studied childhood cases of the "reincarnation type." In these cases, of worldwide distribution, an occasional child, usually between ages of two and six, will be noticed by parents or relatives to talk spontaneously at times as if he or she were actually someone else. Often the child makes enough statements so that the "someone else" can be identified beyond reasonable doubt as a particular person who had died some years or months before the birth of the child in question. Ian Stevenson, author of cases of the Reincarnation Type (four volumes published between 1975 and 1980), has over a thousand "solved" cases of this nature in his files, along with a comparable number of unsolved cases. After the child exceeds an age of from six to ten, the past-life memories generally fade away. Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!m.cs.uiuc.edu!uiucdcs!carroll From: carroll@cs.uiuc.edu (Alan M. Carroll) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars Keywords: Mars Face Message-ID: <1991Oct2.203452.18169@m.cs.uiuc.edu> Date: 2 Oct 91 20:34:52 GMT References: Sender: news@m.cs.uiuc.edu (News Database (admin-Mike Schwager)) Organization: Technophiles Inc. - Engineers with Attitude Lines: 167 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2248 alt.paranormal:3236 alt.conspiracy:7779 Nntp-Posting-Host: ash.cs.uiuc.edu In article , davidj@wrs.com (David Jones) writes: > you must first review the evidence that he presents. I do reserve the right to compare his claims with physical reality. > There is a new paradigm of man`s origins currently evolving in our > consciousness on this planet. Jeez, can't any of you ever say anything without random fancy words? What's the point of "on this planet"? How many news readers are not on this planet? (Dan Quayle doesn't read news, so he doesn't count). > Up until now, we have had 2 choices: > Creationism (whatever the Bible says has to be true) and Evolution (Darwinism: > we evolved out of some primordial soup). If you're going to include Creationism, why not the Norse or Greek human origin mythologies? That's more than 2 choices. Besids, a number of alternate "extraterrestial" origin theories get published all the time. > This new paradigm, as the Sumerians of Sitchen indicated Yep, that's who I check with when I want the latest in scientifc information. I assume that Mr. Hoagland reads Sumerian? > Richard used > phrases like: "... mitocondrial DNA scientists ..." " and "... self-reflective > dimensional expansion" to describe this idea. Really, this makes no sense. There's no relationship between Sumerian myths and "mitocondrial [sic] DNA scientists", and I doubt that there is any meaning in the second phrase. > Mars mission, with 150 foot per pixel resolution, and using techno-hacker > wizardry Ooh! Ooh! techno-hacker wizardry! Do you know any non-techno hackers? Sounds like the latest advertising hype from Madison Avenue. > the stills of the Mars mission and made into three dimensional fly-bys of > the face, the pyramids and the city. At 150 ft / pixel? I don't think you realize what a poor resolution that is in the human scale. > you should understand tetrahedral geometry and it's > associated simple trigonometry. But you never explain it, and I don't see any trigonometry in the rest of the post. > Tetrahedral geometry only works with a > 360 degree system with 60 minutes of arc and 60 seconds per minute. Why? I've _never_ heard of a geometry that depends on the system of measure and I've had a lot of math. Certainly one can measure tetrahedrons in a variety of systems. > addition, 12 is a fundamental aspect of this system. Why? What relationship does it have? > For instance. it you take the slope of the Great Pyramid in Egypt, and > divide it by the 60 degrees, it's top angle, you get 0.865. Why would you want to do this? How do you measure the slope? length / run, or by degrees? From the horizontal or vertical? If you take the slope in radians and divide by pi / 3 (which is 60 degrees in radians), you get the same value. So what is special about the 360 degree system? > we have in a 360 degree circle and that which gives us 24 hours in a day, How is that again? Where does 24 come out of 360? Shouldn't we have 360 hours / day? > The Martian year > is equivalent to 687 Earth days. And so? > The Fibonacci spiral is a tetrahedral mathematic. You've never defined tetrahedral geometry or tetrahedral mathematic, so this claim is meaningless - "The Fibonacci helix is a synergistic mathematic. Follow the numbers and follow the logic". > The Egyptian Pyramids are made of calcium carbonate which has an internal > structure that is exactly like the structure of the pyramid (in Egypt) itself. Uh, you're not under the very mistaken impression that the Egyptain pyramids are tetrahedrons, are you? They're not. Calcium carbonate is tetrahedral, and therefore _doesn't_ have the same structure as the pyramids. > There are 20,000 books written on the Egyptian pyramids. Again, so what? What is the point of these random facts? Just trying to confuse us? > This is an intentional > misinterpretation by scholars so as not to get into trouble with their > colleagues and not challenge western religions. And how did they get the Eastern religions, and the non-religious in on the deal? > Even the latitude on Mars where the city/ > face/pyramid are found is a function of e/pi. What's your measurement system? The exact values rather depend onthat, don't they? How do you know that the Martians used the same measurements as we do? > He spent several hours creating > an exquisite mathematical trail showing that the pyramid on Mars, the > pyramid at Gizeh and, co-equivalently, the Sphinx in Egypt, are all more than > 200,000 years old. This has nothing to do with mathematics. > Mars has two carbon moons. The planet Mars does not contain this carbon. Obviously not, if it's in the moons. "The Earth has a rocky moon. Earth does not contain these rocks". Besides, Mars has plenty of carbon. > The two moons are in perfect circular orbits around Mars. Phobos is spiraling > inward toward Mars. These two statement are contradictory. One of them is a lie. Which one? > The density of Phobos is 1.95 which means that 30% is > missing, or hollowed out, or mined. It means nothing of the sort. The density of Saturn is less than 1 - does that mean most of it is missing, hollowed out, or mined? > The Phobos orbit is 20 Km off true circular, due to it's decaying > orbit. But you said that both moons are in perfect cicular orbits. Read a few lines above. > If it were circular to begin with A completely ad hoc assumption. > The ratio of the Earth to it's moon is .272. The moon takes 27.32 (Earth) > days to orbit the Earth. It should be 27.2. Terrestial or sidereal time? Who says it "should be" 27.2? Why isn't it? What do these numbers have to do with each other? In summary, this whole things makes no sense, is filled with random and often incorrect facts, and even contradicts itself. Get a clue, dude. -- Alan M. Carroll <-- Another casualty of applied metaphysics Epoch Development Team Urbana Il. "I hate shopping with the reality-impaired" - Susan Path: ns-mx!uunet!infonode!ingr!b15!bfh From: bfh@b15.b15.ingr.com (bfh) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,sci.astro,misc.headlines,alt.paranormal,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars Keywords: Mars Face Message-ID: <1991Oct3.001752.9354@b15.b15.ingr.com> Date: 3 Oct 91 00:17:52 GMT References: <1991Oct2.140438.12854@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> Organization: Intergraph, Huntsville AL Lines: 17 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2249 sci.skeptic:15804 sci.astro:11744 misc.headlines:18361 alt.paranormal:3237 alt.conspiracy:7792 Oh, pleeeeeeze. Is anybody taking this seriously? C'mon people. Pull off the blinders. The original poster is either pulling our collective leg or in need of a reality check. I apologize for wasting bandwidth on this, but some of you are posting _SERIOUS_ replies. ----------------------------------------------------------------- |Burgess F. Howell | ___ ___ ___ __ ____ ___ | |Intergraph Corporation |//--\ //--\ //--\ ||//|| \ //--\| |bfh@b15.b15.ingr.com ||| || || || __ || || || ||| | |||__ ||_|| || || || || || ||| | "Ex nihilo omnia fit." |\\--/ \\--/ \\--/ -- -- \\--/| | |==You should try it sometime.===| |---------------------------------------------------------------| Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!psuvax1!rutgers!rochester!cornell!uw-beaver!pullen From: pullen@cs.washington.edu (Walter D. Pullen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: For the Person seeking books on the Pyramids Message-ID: <1991Oct3.000332.19453@beaver.cs.washington.edu> Date: 3 Oct 91 00:03:32 GMT References: <1991Oct1.232413.7798@cbnewsc.cb.att.com> Sender: news@beaver.cs.washington.edu (USENET News System) Distribution: usa Organization: University of Washington Computer Science Lines: 34 In article <1991Oct1.232413.7798@cbnewsc.cb.att.com> jtg@cbnewsc.cb.att.com (Redheaded Goddess) writes: >I am not sure I am in the right newsgroup, but I *thought* >someone wrote in seeking information for pyramid books >(or something to that effect). > >If you are out there, pls. email me privately...there is >a book you might wish to check out: > >"Initiation in the Great Pyramid" by Earlyne Chaney, >available from: Astara, 800 W. Arrow Highway, Upland, CA 91786. > >Kathy >"..when the candidate seeks to overcome the desires of the Earth plane, >he immediately finds the karma of his past rising to confront him, >to challenge his quest for wisdom. Such a confrontation often >creates panic and confusion. Your decision to enter the battle symbolizes >your will and wisdom in overcoming." > > --Earlyne Chaney, "Initiation in the Great Pyramid" There's another very good book on Pyramids out there, called "Pyramid Energy - The Philosophy of God; The Science of Man", published by a group called Delta K. While the initiation book is a more right-brain approach as to what went on in the pyramids and the things the people felt, this book is a more left-brain "technical" book dealing with sacred geometry, ancient history (concerning Atlantis, Lemuria, etc), pyramid forces, the Masters, and other neat stuff. /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \ Walter D. "Cruiser1" Pullen \ pullen@lynx.cs.washington.edu \ / \ / \ / /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \ "Few things matter much... / / ... most things do not matter at all" - Bishop Leadbeater \ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!metro!seagoon.newcastle.edu.au!cc.newcastle.edu.au!ccasm From: ccasm@cc.newcastle.edu.au Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: KUTHUMI to the UN ? Message-ID: <1991Oct3.090009.10759@cc.newcastle.edu.au> Date: 2 Oct 91 23:00:09 GMT Organization: University of Newcastle, AUSTRALIA Lines: 20 KUTHUMI.... "We have great power, but will not interfere because of the universal law of non-interference" You obviously have poor logic abilities: you interfere just by communicating. How foolish of you. You karmic debt must now be enormous! Go away and don't send anyone else. ASdonai we don't need you.... PS Are you rlated to Dr. Scott Corder? :-) Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!sol1.gps.caltech.edu!CARL From: carl@sol1.gps.caltech.edu (Carl J Lydick) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,sci.astro,misc.headlines,alt.paranormal,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars Message-ID: <1991Oct3.005142.6123@cco.caltech.edu> Date: 3 Oct 91 00:51:42 GMT References: ,<1991Oct2.140438.12854@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> Sender: news@cco.caltech.edu Reply-To: carl@sol1.gps.caltech.edu Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera Lines: 31 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2252 sci.skeptic:15808 sci.astro:11746 misc.headlines:18362 alt.paranormal:3238 alt.conspiracy:7795 Nntp-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu > Just another data point / coincidence to offer. The NYTimes > article yesterday on the "Eve" hypothesis says mitochondrial DNA > traces back to a single female some 220,000 years ago - who > is the common ancestor of all humans today. That, of course, assumes a constant rate of mutation for mitochondrial DNA. > My curiosity is most picqued by the sudden interest in a > wildly expensive and seemingly ridiculous proposal for Mars > exploration. It isn't "sudden" interest. The interest has been around for quite some time. > From being a belly-laugh of an idea, to real > proposals for joint US/Russian explorations seems quite a > jump in these tough economic times. Perhaps. But on the other hand, in what areas other than space exploration did the U.S. and U.S.S.R. cooperate during the cold war? The Apollo/Soyuz mission had a lot in common with the proposed joint U.S./U.S.S.R. Mars mission. Little, if any, immediate practical value, but a symbol of cooperation, and one that's likely to get LOTS of publicity. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL Disclaimer: Hey, I understand VAXes and VMS. That's what I get paid for. My understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below). So unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my organization responsible for it. If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it. Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm From: jdm@cadence.com (Joe Mastroianni) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts Message-ID: <1991Oct3.001508.12278@cadence.com> Date: 3 Oct 91 00:15:08 GMT References: <1991Sep30.170806.18957@engage.pko.dec.com> <48015@cup.portal.com> <1991Oct1.191911.7936@3D.com> Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc. Lines: 89 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15809 alt.paranormal:3239 alt.alien.visitors:2253 talk.religion.newage:7041 In article <1991Oct1.191911.7936@3D.com> kdq@3D.com (Kevin D. Quitt) writes: >In article <48015@cup.portal.com> Don_-_Showen@cup.portal.com writes: >>... the Pleiadians are spiritual, metaphysical >>teachers and I consider what they teach to be among the highest quality of >>information I have encountered. > > Has anything they've presented to you been outside of current human >philsophy? That is, have you learned anything from them that couldn't or >hasn't come from a normal human mind? Would you give some (short) >examples? (email may be preferable) > > >>Nikola Tesla ... freely admitted he was getting >>assistance from higher, extraterrestrial intelligence. > > He did? What's your source? > > >>when he was in school he presented >>his theory of alternating current and the professor spent the whole class >>period putting Tesla and the theory down. > > Where was this documented? > > >> Now lucky for us that Tesla was not >>a Skeptic and more interested in what his peers thought than truth, or we >>would be using Edisions DC power with a generating plant every few blocks. > > Wrongo boy! He *was* a skeptic, and only believed what he had evidence >for. A skeptic is the *one person* who will not be swayed by opinion. >-- > _ >Kevin D. Quitt srhqla!venus!kdq kdq%venus@sr.com >3D systems, inc. 26081 Avenue Hall Valencia, CA 91355 >VOICE (805) 295-5600 x430 FAX (805) 257-1200 > > 96.37% of all statistics are made up. One biography of Tesla (Not "Man out of Time", but a longer one written by a close friend...Ill have to go back to my book boxes and dig it out) states that Tesla felt he was visited by a spirit/being/presence, that manifested itself in the form of a dove with radiant eyes. He had such a visitation on the night his mother died. He was extremely attached to his mother. Her death was catastrophic for him. Tesla also is claimed to have an incredibly visual imagination. The author and Tesla were walking when Tesla invented the synchronous AC motor. The author claims Tesla shouted something like, "Look, there it is, right in front of us. Watch the fields rotate. See, its simple. Watch how I can make it reverse..." This event is presented to the reader in a a way as to make you believe Tesla expected others to see the images he conjured in his mind. Tesla also enjoyed connecting himself to extremely high frequency, high voltage, low current, power sources. Mark Twain was a guest at one of Tesla's private parties where he hooked himself up to his lightning machines. One could see glowing currents flowing over his body. He could also make lamps light at a distance. It is claimed that he once connected a tiny box to a load-bearing pillar in his workshop. The box vibrated at the fundamental frequency of this building housing his workshop. When bricks began to fall from the building to the street, the police were called in to force Tesla to turn off his miniature earthquake machine. Tesla was a genius. I do not believe beings from the Pleiades had anything to do with his inventions. Anyway, the Pleiades are a group of young stars still in the process of formation. It is a younger system than ours. The most advanced life form in that cluster is a protein molecule. We are a more advanced society than anything which has or is developing there. That is, unless beings develop in the core of forming stars. Marconi shut off all the electric lights in Milan with a pocket sized device. This included battery powered devices. This happened long ago. Now, no one can be sure Marconi actually did it himself. One day he said something like, "On October 22 at 7:00 PM Im going to turn off all electricity in Milan." And at that time, everything stopped working. So, was Marconi in touch with people from other galaxies or dimensions? I hope not. I hope we can give some credit to the humans who have through their own intelligence and creations changed the world for the better. Humans are pretty incredible creatures too. Joe -- Joe Mastroianni AKA: AA6YD AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA Cadence Design Systems Santa Clara Ca. "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we jdm@cadence.com daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men " Path: ns-mx!uunet!caen!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg From: jtg@cbnewsc.cb.att.com (Redheaded Goddess) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: The Pleiadean Transcripts Message-ID: <1991Oct3.014025.12148@cbnewsc.cb.att.com> Date: 3 Oct 91 01:40:25 GMT Distribution: usa Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties Lines: 18 Joe Mastroianni (any relation to the actor? :-) ) writes about a book on Tesla ("he had a visitation on thenight his mother died") I knew a couple in a meditation group that lost their daughter in an automobile accident (I believe she was in her teens). On the night before they found out that she was dead, she appeared to the woman through the window. I knew both of these people and feel they have no reason to lie about such a thing. To those people who 'open their minds'...boundaries can collapse, and what we *think* is reality may only be seen to be one reality amongst many other realities. Also, I remember someone once saying how the mind is like a parachute: if you don't open it, it will not work. Kathy Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,sci.skeptic,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts Message-ID: Date: 2 Oct 91 15:49:59 GMT References: <46869@cup.portal.com> <47188@cup.portal.com> <47838@cup.portal.com> <1991Sep29.204656.10708@summa4.mv.com> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 18 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2255 alt.paranormal:3240 sci.skeptic:15816 talk.religion.newage:7044 In article <1991Sep29.204656.10708@summa4.mv.com> admin@summa4.mv.com (Scott Babb) writes: >I hate to be a skeptic ;-), but has anyone mentioned that the Pleiadians claim >to be from a star system whose age is measured in thousands of years (well, >tens of thousands, maybe) while we lesser-advanced beings have taken millions >of years to evolve to our current level? Perhaps living on plasma planets >is more conducive to rapid intellectual evolution? I used to mention it every chance I got. Then I got tired of all the chances :-) Of course, the Pleiadians might not have bodies. But then, why hang around any particular star system? -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@amix.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: A channeled message from Kuthumi to the U.N.: Message-ID: Date: 3 Oct 91 03:10:29 GMT References: <1991Oct1.012125.27603@beaver.cs.washington.edu> Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 28 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2256 talk.religion.newage:7045 alt.paranormal:3241 In article <1991Oct1.012125.27603@beaver.cs.washington.edu> pullen@cs.washington.edu (Walter D. Pullen) writes: > > MESSAGE FROM MASTER KUTHUMI TO THE ATTENDEES > of the > Parapsychology Society Subcommittee > United Nations > New York, New York > October 15, 1990 I didn't know the U.N. had a Parapsychology Society. What does it do? >Transmission received on October 11 and 12, 1990 by Dr. Norma >Milanovich, Albuquerque, NM. Copyright 1990 by Dr. Norma Milanovich. >All rights reserved. This message may be copied for the sole purpose >of sharing it with others. No part of this message may be published, >printed, transmitted, stored in a retrieval system, or translated into >any other human language without the express permission of The Alpha >Connection, Inc., Suite 204, 7410 Montgomery Blvd., NE, Albuquerque, >NM 87109. What is Norma Milanovich a doctor of, and why does she place such restrictions on a message which she claims she is not the author of? -- * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@amix.commodore.com | Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!darwin.sura.net!Sirius.dfn.de!math.fu-berlin.de!mailgzrz!opal!unido!mcsun!news.funet.fi!sunic!dkuug!iesd!iesd.auc.dk!fischer From: fischer@iesd.auc.dk (Lars P. Fischer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,sci.astro,misc.headlines,alt.paranormal,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars Message-ID: Date: 2 Oct 91 21:14:06 GMT References: Sender: news@iesd.auc.dk Organization: Mathematics and Computer Science, University of Aalborg Lines: 17 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2257 sci.skeptic:15825 sci.astro:11753 misc.headlines:18368 alt.paranormal:3243 alt.conspiracy:7814 In-Reply-To: davidj@wrs.com's message of 1 Oct 91 03:34:38 GMT >>>>> On 1 Oct 91 03:34:38 GMT, davidj@wrs.com (David Jones) said: David> [...] There are 20,000 books written on the Egyptian pyramids. It is David> located 5' 30" of direct North. This is caused by tektonic David> plate movements (otherwise it would be direct north). The David> plate that it sits on moves an approximate maximum of 1' arc David> every 45,000 years. This means that it would take about David> 247,000 years to get to it's present position. [...] If sarcasm was posted on the USENET, would anyone notice? -James Davis Nicoll /Lars, Founder, SON, Inc. -- Lars Fischer, fischer@iesd.auc.dk | It takes an uncommon mind to think of CS Dept., Univ. of Aalborg, DENMARK. | these things. -- Calvin Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!think.com!linus!linus!tympani!gpivar From: gpivar@tympani.mitre.org (Greg Pivarnik) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: A channeled message from Kuthumi to the U.N.: Message-ID: <1991Oct3.104643.24834@linus.mitre.org> Date: 3 Oct 91 10:46:43 GMT References: <1991Oct1.012125.27603@beaver.cs.washington.edu> Sender: news@linus.mitre.org (News Service) Reply-To: gpivar@mitre.org Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean, Va Lines: 54 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2258 talk.religion.newage:7047 alt.paranormal:3244 Nntp-Posting-Host: tympani.mitre.org In article , jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) writes: |> In article <1991Oct1.012125.27603@beaver.cs.washington.edu> pullen@cs.washington.edu (Walter D. Pullen) writes: |> > |> > MESSAGE FROM MASTER KUTHUMI TO THE ATTENDEES |> > of the |> > Parapsychology Society Subcommittee |> > United Nations |> > New York, New York |> > October 15, 1990 |> |> I didn't know the U.N. had a Parapsychology Society. What does it do? |> |> >Transmission received on October 11 and 12, 1990 by Dr. Norma |> >Milanovich, Albuquerque, NM. Copyright 1990 by Dr. Norma Milanovich. |> >All rights reserved...(other copyright related stuff omitted). |> |> What is Norma Milanovich a doctor of, and why does she place such |> restrictions on a message which she claims she is not the author of? |> |> -- |> * From the disk of: | jms@vanth.uucp | I'm in a groove now |> Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!amix!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? |> 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@amix.commodore.com | |> Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Jim, this article intrigued me, it also prompted me to investigate its validity. The question of copyright also was approached,here are my findings: I called the United Nations to find out if a"Parapsychology Society Subcommittee" actually existed. The U.N. says that there is no subcommittee by that name registered. Althought they clearly stated that it was possible a non-governmental group derived off of one of their subcommittes or a group using one of their conference areas. Which the U.N. says, will not publish any transcripts which are collected within. Not satisfied I called the Alpha Connection in Aluquerque,NM. They are a training organization( teach the government and other companies ...how to cooperated) it was founded by Dr. Norma Milanovich. The copyright is impossed so that the message can not be taken out of context. This is a common practice, you'll find a similar copyright on the Bible and other things like that. It is used so that the original text is undisturbed. But it also explains that you may make copies and distribute it for purposes of sharing it with others. Dr. Milanovich will be speaking to the U.N. today and tomorrow on related topics in New York. I found out that there is a person within the U.N. which has invited her up for the channeling and speaking engagements. Although the "group" is not officially recognized as a U.N. entity the proceeding therein are authentic. Hope that cleared things...by the way if any of you are interested in speaking to Norma Milanovich she does take phone calls and will schedule appointments. She has no problem with discussing her work. She will be going to Europe after the U.N. and will be back in mid October briefly before going off for another two weeks worth of speaking engagements, she is very busy. -- Greg -- "I dream therefore I am." -- Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!waikato.ac.nz!comp.vuw.ac.nz!canterbury.ac.nz!cosc.canterbury.ac.nz!chisnall From: chisnall@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (The Technicolour Throw-up) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: Alien names Message-ID: <1991Oct3.231003.2361@csc.canterbury.ac.nz> Date: 3 Oct 91 11:10:02 GMT References: <1991Sep26.072018.12792@iconix.oz.au> Reply-To: chisnall@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz Organization: Computer Science,University of Canterbury,New Zealand Lines: 44 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2259 sci.skeptic:15826 Nntp-Posting-Host: hihi.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz From article <1991Sep26.072018.12792@iconix.oz.au>, by ajm@titanic.iconix.oz.au (Andrew Mack,Iconix,x222): > [....] > Why do these UFO-type people and places usually have names like Telos and > Ashtar? Why are they never called things like Zonko or Dorko or Klong? > > "Hi, I'm Donko from the planet Ning-Nong." A more revealing question is - why are the names of aliens etc always "easy on our ears". Why, for example, do we seldom have names like: mloa, tbilik, !aang, at, or ngouie where as in german "ich", "!" as in the Xhosa language, and represents a rare phoneme which apparently occurs in some african languages and is basically a "k" and a "p" said at the same time. Listen to the names of aliens given by people and you will notice that they are alomst always nice "english"-ish words - words with the same sort of consonants and vowels and arrangements thereof that we have in english. Yet listen to someone speaking another language from our planet other than english and you have no difficulty in recognising the words from it as not being english. Any given language only has certain sounds available in it and they can only be arranged in certain ways. English for example doesn't have and it can never have -tl- or -tb- within a syllable (as in the 2nd example above). Native speakers of a language have a good inbuilt idea of what their language is like and can use such knowledge, intuitively, to recognise foreign words as being foreign. But whenever alien names are proffered in the western press they are inavariably english-like. Why? Don et al will no doubt claim that it has something to do with the channelling - that the pleidians (or whoever) know its hard for us to pronounce 'foreign' words like the above examples and so they give us easy-to-pronounce names. A simpler explanation is that the names are being generated at random by the subconcious in accordance with the channeller's inbuilt linguistic knowledge. If you ever want a good example of this listen to fundamentalist christians who think that they are speaking in tongues. If you listen closely to their spew of words you will hear lots and lots of random *english* syllables. Anybody know what names the aliens have in France or Russia? :-) -- Just my two rubber ningis worth. Name: Michael Chisnall email: chisnall@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz Path: ns-mx!uunet!spool.mu.edu!agate!linus!linus!mwvm.mitre.org!M22565 From: M22565@mwvm.mitre.org Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Photographic Evidence Message-ID: <91276.30895.M22565@mwvm.mitre.org> Date: 3 Oct 91 12:34:55 GMT Sender: news@linus.mitre.org (News Service) Organization: The MITRE Corporation, McLean VA 22102 Lines: 13 Nntp-Posting-Host: mwvm.mitre.org Having lost track of the UFO controversy in the late 1970's and having now found this news group, I'm wondering what happened to the McMinnville and Heflin (Santa Ana I think) photographs. I seem to remember them being help up as legitimate evidence at first, then becoming controversial after computer analysis. Were they ever exposed as hoaxes or did more modern analysis confirm them as real? Also, does this newsgroup represent a microcosm of the current state of UFOlogy? Channeling? Pleides? I seem to have missed some big changes. -Eric Path: ns-mx!uunet!boulder!spot.Colorado.EDU!bradleyt From: bradleyt@spot.Colorado.EDU (Todd Bradley) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Alien names Message-ID: <1991Oct3.154327.1601@colorado.edu> Date: 3 Oct 91 15:43:27 GMT References: <1991Sep26.072018.12792@iconix.oz.au> <1991Oct3.231003.2361@csc.canterbury.ac.nz> Sender: news@colorado.edu (The Daily Planet) Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder Lines: 37 Nntp-Posting-Host: spot.colorado.edu In article <1991Oct3.231003.2361@csc.canterbury.ac.nz> chisnall@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz writes: >From article <1991Sep26.072018.12792@iconix.oz.au>, by ajm@titanic.iconix.oz.au (Andrew Mack,Iconix,x222): >> [....] >> Why do these UFO-type people and places usually have names like Telos and >> Ashtar? Why are they never called things like Zonko or Dorko or Klong? >> >> "Hi, I'm Donko from the planet Ning-Nong." > >A more revealing question is - why are the names of aliens etc always "easy >on our ears". Why, for example, do we seldom have names like: > >mloa, tbilik, !aang, at, or ngouie > Many lines of wisdom deleted. > >If you ever want a good example of this listen to fundamentalist christians >who think that they are speaking in tongues. If you listen closely to their >spew of words you will hear lots and lots of random *english* syllables. Well, some of it could be Hebrew if you use your imagination. > >Anybody know what names the aliens have in France or Russia? :-) >-- I believe Beldar and Leonid are common ones. Todd. -- Todd Bradley Aerospace Engineering Sciences Dept. Oompa Loompas Ultimate Frisbee Team 3-1 bradleyt@spot.Colorado.EDU | (303) 443-6317 home BRADLEY_T@CUBLDR.COLORADO.EDU | (303) 492-5826 office Path: ns-mx!uunet!cadence!jdm From: jdm@cadence.com (Joe Mastroianni) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars Keywords: Mars Face Message-ID: <1991Oct3.170422.24508@cadence.com> Date: 3 Oct 91 17:04:22 GMT References: <1991Oct2.203452.18169@m.cs.uiuc.edu> Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc. Lines: 62 Throughout history people have put together facts and made interpretations. Medical doctors do this all the time. They make a living at it. You are coughing -- you have a cold. Your fingers hurt when you move them --- you have arthritis. James Burke's first PBS series, "Connections", is a masterpiece in my view. Burke describes how historians have blatently biased society through incorrect interpretation of the facts. Mostly, the profit motive has driven human history. Lots of stuff was invented by accident by people who were trying to make money by doing completely irrelevant things. The steam engine was a side effect of Watt's trying to pump water out of coal mines. Fertilizer came from a guy trying to sell expensive clothing dye to royalty. I think there is too much being read into the facts we have on this "Face on Mars" issue. I suspect this is the reason for the schism Hoagland mentions he has with Carl Sagan. Here is what we know. There is this mountain on mars that looks like a human face. When we run signal processing algorithms on the picture data, it looks even more like a face. In the same vicinity there are mountains with regular, flat, sides. These look like some kind of pyramid structure to us humans. Thats it. Thats all we have. In his book, Hoagland starts conjecturing that these Martian features are part of a city. He draws lines and makes astronomical calculations. He determines where the sun will rise on the Martian Solstices. He biases the data with an interpretation that includes cultural features taken from historical human religions. Anthropologists build historical scenerios from known data. They add cultural biases. They piece together the past using rocks, ruins, and cultural information from later times. They extrapolate the present into the past. Hoagland is attempting anthropology at a distance. He hypothesises a martian civilization based on facts from earth. He bases all his conjecture on a huge leap of reasoning -- that the features on mars are not natural, but made by intelligent beings. We have no information other than a few pictures of an alien planetary surface and Hoagland has built an interstellar religion from it. The chances that his theories are wrong are astronomically high. On the other side, imagine an intelligent alien culture intercepting Voyager, playing the record, hearing (If they hear) that child's voice say, "Hello from the children of the planet Earth", and concluding that the phenomena was caused by random collisions between interstellar gasses. If you wanted to get our attention and you lived on mars, maybe you would build something so obvious that it couldnt possibly be mistaken for a random natural structure. Something so blatant that its discoverers couldnt possibly misinterpret its origins. Something so common, that an isolated intelligent society couldnt possibly believe it was real. Joe -- Joe Mastroianni AKA: AA6YD AA6YD @ N6LDL.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NA Cadence Design Systems Santa Clara Ca. "Up the airy mountain;down the rushy glen; we jdm@cadence.com daren't go a hunting; for fear of little men " Path: ns-mx!uunet!caen!usenet.coe.montana.edu!masscomp!peora!tarpit!tous!bilver!dona From: dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: FILE: Codex.asc - Peruvian AF encounter with Aliens Message-ID: <1991Oct3.033035.623@bilver.uucp> Date: 3 Oct 91 03:30:35 GMT References: <1991Sep30.022452.26277@bilver.uucp> <91274.073246DOCTORJ@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL Lines: 93 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2263 alt.conspiracy:7824 sci.skeptic:15839 In article <91274.073246DOCTORJ@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> DOCTORJ@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU (Jon J Thaler) writes: >dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) says: > > (...lots of UFO nonsense deleted...) > >> I think we're being played with, tested, poked and prodded just >> to see what we can do and are capable of doing. We are their >> guinea pigs. > >I think Don has it right this time, except that he has not >correctly identified the tester and the testee. You know Jon..I really feel sorry for you...once in a while you really _should_ take your head out of the sand and do some research. Quite a few of you skeptics delight in calling this "nonsense" but how much research do you do? What for example, can you tell me about the most recent UFO flap going on in Lajas, in the Laguna Cartagena area of Puerto Rico? I have 19 newspaper articles here in front of me from Puerto Rico that were sent to me. Some of them are AP..quite a few have impressive photos. I don't believe that any news of this was ever carried in this country that I've been able to ascertain. What can you tell me about the UFO flap in Mexico city during the recent eclipse? Please give us the benefit of your findings... Now..as to the quoted article you lampooned..that was an _actual_ FOIA release, but being a /skeptic\ you would prefer that a Grey come and take you for a rectal examination I suppose as evidence.. If you doubt that it *was* a valid FOIA release..I can dig up Carl Aztec's voice number and post it here for you to call and verify from him personally and have him quote you his sources. However, I don't *expect* anyone to believe any of these articles at face value but I DO expect that you will get off your duff and do some basic research or is that too much to ask? I am cross-posting these articles to sci.skeptic with the eternal _hope_ that some of you will do your homework, be better educated and engage in civilized dialog, rather than the silliness that passes for "skepticism" as it usually degenerates into ridicule and personal attacks. Skeptics and "UFO believers" can pass insults back and forth between newsgroups but that doesn't serve any good purpose nor does it promote knowledge or understanding. I have spent the last few months posting numerous articles and the only thing I ever asked (if you bother to read the intro disclaimer) was to do your own investigation. I personally don't care if you are a believer or skeptic, but that you just do your homework. I don't pretend to be an "expert"...I'm just a person who *was* a skeptic (believe it or not..I don't care) until I,along with 2 others had a Close Encounter in 1974, in Albuquerque,NM. This sighting lasted for 10 min., was *very* close and thereafter convinced me that "there's something to all this UFO "nonsense". It's indeed your option to dismiss all of this "nonsense", and it's not my lifelong goal to persuade people either one way or the other. I provide the articles simply because I believe that there are others who may have experienced similar sightings and also in the hopes that people who do read the articles may have something to add in the way of _constructive_ dialog. I don't have a problem with skeptics who show out-points in a article, or who have something to add to a discussion... Amazingly I can be _both_ a "believer" and a "skeptic" myself but it's hard to find mature skeptics who can engage in a conversation without resulting to ridicule..at that point whatever credibility they may have had in my book...gets tossed. Personally I don't care if you print out the articles and have a good laugh..or if you feed them to your dog..I really don't care. I do draw the line at personal attacks on me, however. BTW...if you care to do so..you can contact Carl Aztec to check the veracity of the FOIA release at: Aztec Enterprises PO Box 668 Bushkill, PA 18324 Don -- -* Don Allen *- InterNet: dona@bilver.UUCP // Amiga..for the best of us. USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-) UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona KING George Bush?? Just say NO! UFO's in commercials....is the GOVT getting us ready for OCTOBER of 1992? Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!srhqla!venus!kdq From: kdq@3D.com (Kevin D. Quitt) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts Message-ID: <1991Oct3.184640.5004@3D.com> Date: 3 Oct 91 18:46:40 GMT References: <48015@cup.portal.com> <1991Oct1.191911.7936@3D.com> <1991Oct3.001508.12278@cadence.com> Organization: 3D systems, inc. Valencia CA Lines: 27 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15841 alt.paranormal:3246 alt.alien.visitors:2264 talk.religion.newage:7051 In article <1991Oct3.001508.12278@cadence.com> jdm@cadence.com (Joe Mastroianni) writes: >Marconi shut off all the electric lights in Milan with a pocket sized device. >This included battery powered devices. Somehow I really doubt this. You have some documentation perhaps? >So, was Marconi >in touch with people from other galaxies or dimensions? Nope, just Tesla's notes. >I hope we can give some credit to the humans who have through >their own intelligence and creations changed the world for the better. >Humans are pretty incredible creatures too. Can't disagree with you here. -- _ Kevin D. Quitt srhqla!venus!kdq kdq%venus@sr.com 3D systems, inc. 26081 Avenue Hall Valencia, CA 91355 VOICE (805) 295-5600 x430 FAX (805) 257-1200 96.37% of all statistics are made up. Path: ns-mx!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!news From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars Message-ID: <1991Oct3.195538.714@javelin.sim.es.com> Date: 3 Oct 91 19:55:38 GMT References: <1991Oct2.134102.27844@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu> Sender: news@javelin.sim.es.com Organization: Evans & Sutherland Lines: 7 In-Reply-To: jwm@sun4.uucp's message of 2 Oct 91 13:41:02 GMT Nntp-Posting-Host: taurus X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11 In <1991Oct2.134102.27844@aplcen.apl.jhu.edu> jwm@sun4.uucp writes: > faces of Ted Kennedy and Mickey Mouse, also identified on the landscape > of mars. You forgot Kermit the Frog (which, by the way, resembles Kermit much more that the 'face' resembles anything). Path: ns-mx!uunet!mcsun!hp4nl!tuegate.tue.nl!gem!gtoal From: gtoal@gem.stack.urc.tue.nl (Graham Toal) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.conspiracy,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: INFO: Meessen - Belgian UFO Sightings 1989-90 part1 Message-ID: <2034@tuegate.tue.nl> Date: 2 Oct 91 23:56:48 GMT References: <1991Sep30.023750.26746@bilver.uucp> Sender: news@tuegate.tue.nl Reply-To: gtoal@stack.urc.tue.nl Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors Organization: MCGV Stack @ EUT, Eindhoven, the Netherlands Lines: 26 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2266 alt.conspiracy:7828 sci.skeptic:15843 In article <1991Sep30.023750.26746@bilver.uucp> dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) writes: >Perhaps the U.S. Air Force was testing this secret plane over >Belgium without notifying the Belgian Air Force -a friendly >nation which uses American F- 16s. Does this seem practical or >likely? Consider that testing new planes inevitably involves the >risk of an accident or crash, in which case the Belgian >authorities would have to be notiFied to help protect essential >secrets. Actually this scenario strikes me as very plausible: it's called blind testing. Assume the US has built an unmanned computer + remote controlled drone for survey/intelligence gathering. It's small - mostly one big jet engine, in the middle, pointing downwards. It's stealth- covered and damn-near invisible to radar. They test it live over the territory of a friendly government, to see whether it will be spotted in action. If it were to crash, the US (& possibly selected informed high Belgian officials) inform the military immediately and it is recovered; if the test is successful, they keep quiet. Interestingly enough, a guy posted an article to alt.conspiracy just some months before these incidents, postulating *exactly* such a 'black' technology program. Say buddy, if you're listening, care to find your posts in the archives and resend them? Regards Graham Path: ns-mx!uunet!van-bc!ubc-cs!mprgate.mpr.ca!mprgate.mpr.ca!spani From: spani@mprgate.mpr.ca (Leonard Spani) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: INFO: Meessen - Belgian UFO Sightings 1989-90 part1 Message-ID: <1991Oct3.214356.8133@mprgate.mpr.ca> Date: 3 Oct 91 21:43:56 GMT References: <1991Sep30.023750.26746@bilver.uucp> <2034@tuegate.tue.nl> Sender: news@mprgate.mpr.ca Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors Organization: MPR Teltech Ltd., Burnaby, B.C., Canada Lines: 42 In article <2034@tuegate.tue.nl>, gtoal@gem.stack.urc.tue.nl (Graham Toal) writes: |> In article <1991Sep30.023750.26746@bilver.uucp> dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) writes: |> >Perhaps the U.S. Air Force was testing this secret plane over |> >Belgium without notifying the Belgian Air Force -a friendly |> >nation which uses American F- 16s. Does this seem practical or |> >likely? Consider that testing new planes inevitably involves the |> >risk of an accident or crash, in which case the Belgian |> >authorities would have to be notiFied to help protect essential |> >secrets. |> |> Actually this scenario strikes me as very plausible: it's called |> blind testing. Assume the US has built an unmanned computer + remote |> controlled drone for survey/intelligence gathering. It's small - mostly |> one big jet engine, in the middle, pointing downwards. It's stealth- |> covered and damn-near invisible to radar. They test it live over the |> territory of a friendly government, to see whether it will be spotted |> in action. If it were to crash, the US (& possibly selected informed |> high Belgian officials) inform the military immediately and it is |> recovered; if the test is successful, they keep quiet. |> |> Interestingly enough, a guy posted an article to alt.conspiracy just |> some months before these incidents, postulating *exactly* such a |> 'black' technology program. Say buddy, if you're listening, care |> to find your posts in the archives and resend them? |> |> Regards |> Graham The Hudson Valley sightings from the mid 80's have a similar look and feel to the Belgium sightings. The craft sighted were similar (boomerang shapes, large slow-moving craft) and the debunkings were also similar (ultralights, stealth secrets). You may want to take a look at the Hudson Valley sightings. -- *********************************************************************** | Leonard E. Spani | //!?\\ | (disclaimer-p) | | spani@tartarus.mpr.ca | \\?!// | t | *********************************************************************** Path: ns-mx!uunet!olivea!amdahl!jesse From: jesse@uts.amdahl.com (Jesse Mundis) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,sci.astro,misc.headlines,alt.paranormal,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars Message-ID: <57x101yReeCU00@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com> Date: 3 Oct 91 22:25:25 GMT References: ,<1991Oct2.140438.12854@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> <1991Oct3.005142.6123@cco.caltech.edu> Organization: Amdahl Corporation, Sunnyvale CA Lines: 18 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2268 sci.skeptic:15848 sci.astro:11763 misc.headlines:18386 alt.paranormal:3250 alt.conspiracy:7833 carl@sol1.gps.caltech.edu (Carl J Lydick) writes: >Perhaps. But on the other hand, in what areas other than space exploration did >the U.S. and U.S.S.R. cooperate during the cold war? The Apollo/Soyuz mission >had a lot in common with the proposed joint U.S./U.S.S.R. Mars mission. >Little, if any, immediate practical value, but a symbol of cooperation, and one >that's likely to get LOTS of publicity. Just a quick comment. I'd say there is quite a bit of immediate practical value to space exploration. The value that comes from spin-off technology. Taking those into account, Space exploration has been one of the best values/dollar spent in research...even including the less than stunning recent past. -- Jesse Mundis | Amdahl Corporation | Freedom is just chaos jesse@uts.amdahl.com | 1250 East Arques Ave M/S 316 | with better lighting. (408) 746-4796 | Sunnyvale, CA 94088-3470 | -Alan Dean Foster #include Path: ns-mx!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!news From: KHATCH@130.187.183.15 (Kellan Hatch) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: FILE: Codex.asc - Peruvian AF encounter with Aliens Message-ID: <1991Oct3.224101.3799@javelin.sim.es.com> Date: 3 Oct 91 22:41:01 GMT References: <1991Sep30.022452.26277@bilver.uucp> <91274.073246DOCTORJ@SLACVM.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> <1991Oct3.033035.623@bilver.uucp> Sender: news@javelin.sim.es.com Organization: Evans & Sutherland Lines: 8 In-Reply-To: dona@bilver.uucp's message of 3 Oct 91 03:30:35 GMT Nntp-Posting-Host: taurus X-News-Reader: VMS NEWS 1.11 In <1991Oct3.033035.623@bilver.uucp> dona@bilver.uucp writes: > it or not..I don't care) until I,along with 2 others had a Close > Encounter in 1974, in Albuquerque,NM. This sighting lasted for 10 min., > was *very* close and thereafter convinced me that "there's something > to all this UFO "nonsense". Would you please post a brief account of this encounter? Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!bruce!trlluna!titan!medici!jbm From: jbm@medici.trl.OZ.AU (Jacques Guy) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: Alien names Message-ID: <1991Oct3.223443.15907@trl.oz.au> Date: 3 Oct 91 22:34:43 GMT References: <1991Sep26.072018.12792@iconix.oz.au> <1991Oct3.231003.2361@csc.canterbury.ac.nz> Sender: news@trl.oz.au (USENET News System) Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne, Australia Lines: 8 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2270 sci.skeptic:15849 In France they have French-sounding names mostly, sometimes mock-Latin, Greek or Ancient Egyptian (but as found in school books, themselves taken from the Hellenized pronunciation of those names: Apis, Osiris, Mykerinos, etc.) Read Guy Breton's "Les nuits secretes de Paris", an investigation of weird French sects (including one that worships.... onions!) Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!qt.cs.utexas.edu!yale.edu!ox.com!math.fu-berlin.de!uniol!tpki!elrond!freitag From: freitag@elrond.toppoint.de (Claus Schoenleber) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,sci.astro,misc.headlines,alt.paranormal,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars Message-ID: <3F9991w164w@elrond.toppoint.de> Date: 3 Oct 91 19:41:37 GMT References: Followup-To: sci.sceptic Organization: private UUCP site, Claus Schoenleber, Kiel, Germany Lines: 58 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2271 sci.skeptic:15852 sci.astro:11765 misc.headlines:18389 alt.paranormal:3252 alt.conspiracy:7836 Why must there be a "Face" on Mars? I have seen those NASA-pictures taken from Viking in a book, written by a guy, who calls himself "astrophysicist" (v.Buttlar, he is known as someone who does not write a scientific style). It says that the (Main-) Face (there "are" more of them!) has a diameter of 1.5 km. Looking at the shadow of the Face, the sun must be near to the horizon; in such situation the shadows produced are very long, so the Face's shadow is nearly as long as the Face. That supports "pattern recognition", even if there is no pattern. Another point is the "150 feet per pixel resolution", which is not very high resolution to identify such fine structures like a face. In fact, the area shown is dotted with craters and if some of the dots have a different size (as in the "Face") and do form the right pattern everone would recognize a face. In fact, when you look at the picture, it seems that there are three pyramids (one ruin) and in the east of the pyramids a mighty "face". But mainly the *shadows* (and my imagination), _not the structures_, make that effect. I don't think there "are" faces when you see that area at another "daytime" (say noon). Perhaps NASA has some pictures of the same area at another daytime (I don't have). (You might remember the "Channels on Mars"...) From cognitive psychology it is known, that human brain *wants* to see patterns in what we see, and faces are the most natural thing we have sophisticated pattern recognition algorithms for. You can show a baby a circle with two dots (as eyes) and a "smiling mouth" painted on a piece of paper: it will smile too because it recognizes a "Smiling Face". I think that the resolution of those "Face pictures" is not high enough to say that there *are* faces; one can only say, those patterns (composed of surface structures, low resolution and a sun near the horizon) *look* like faces or pyramids. There is too few information on those pictures, but human phantasy and the wish, that there were "Martians" (the wish to get famous and earn much money with books is impossible, isn't it?) create always such interpretions. But on the other hand it might be my limited imagination which ignores the facts and better pictures show real faces and pyramids... Claus. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Claus Schoenleber freitag@elrond.toppoint.de Metzstr. 54 ...!unido!tpki!elrond!freitag 2300 Kiel 1 Germany +49 431 18863 ================================================================= "Never give a sucker an even break" (W.C.Fields) ================================================================= Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!yfn.ysu.edu!ysub!psuvm!ccb104 From: CCB104@psuvm.psu.edu Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: "Childhood's End" Message-ID: <91276.194741CCB104@psuvm.psu.edu> Date: 3 Oct 91 23:47:41 GMT Organization: Penn State University Lines: 3 Has anyone read the science fiction book "Childhood's End" by A. C. Clarke, and if so, what do you think about it? Also, does anyone know why it was originally going to be made into a movie but that for some reason it was cancelled? Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!sol1.gps.caltech.edu!CARL From: carl@sol1.gps.caltech.edu (Carl J Lydick) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,sci.astro,misc.headlines,alt.paranormal,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars Message-ID: <1991Oct4.005539.15572@cco.caltech.edu> Date: 4 Oct 91 00:55:39 GMT References: ,<1991Oct2.140438.12854@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> <1991Oct3.005142.6123@cco.caltech.edu>,<57x101yReeCU00@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com> Sender: news@cco.caltech.edu Reply-To: carl@sol1.gps.caltech.edu Organization: HST Wide Field/Planetary Camera Lines: 29 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2273 sci.skeptic:15857 sci.astro:11766 misc.headlines:18391 alt.paranormal:3253 alt.conspiracy:7838 Nntp-Posting-Host: sol1.gps.caltech.edu In article <57x101yReeCU00@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com>, jesse@uts.amdahl.com (Jesse Mundis) writes: >carl@sol1.gps.caltech.edu (Carl J Lydick) writes: > >>Perhaps. But on the other hand, in what areas other than space exploration did >>the U.S. and U.S.S.R. cooperate during the cold war? The Apollo/Soyuz mission >>had a lot in common with the proposed joint U.S./U.S.S.R. Mars mission. >>Little, if any, immediate practical value, but a symbol of cooperation, and one >>that's likely to get LOTS of publicity. > > Just a quick comment. I'd say there is quite a bit of immediate practical >value to space exploration. The value that comes from spin-off technology. Taking those into account, Space exploration has been one of the best values/dollar spent in research...even including the less than stunning recent past. Actually, NASA is well-known for claiming as spinoffs lots of things that aren't. But I agree that space exploration has given a good ROI. That aside, what immediate practical value was there from the Apollo/Soyuz mission? What immediate practical value can we expect from the joint Mars mission? We've got (or had, 20 years ago, anyway) the technology necessary to do it, so it looks unlikely to me that we'll get any major R&D benefits from it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Carl J Lydick | INTERnet: CARL@SOL1.GPS.CALTECH.EDU | NSI/HEPnet: SOL1::CARL Disclaimer: Hey, I understand VAXes and VMS. That's what I get paid for. My understanding of astronomy is purely at the amateur level (or below). So unless what I'm saying is directly related to VAX/VMS, don't hold me or my organization responsible for it. If it IS related to VAX/VMS, you can try to hold me responsible for it, but my organization had nothing to do with it. Path: ns-mx!uunet!igor!erde!rmartin From: rmartin@erde.Rational.COM (Bob Martin) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts Message-ID: Date: 4 Oct 91 00:22:24 GMT References: <47838@cup.portal.com> <50038@cs.jhu.edu> <1991Sep28.164534.7111@yenta.alb.nm.us> Sender: news@Rational.COM Followup-To: sci.skeptic Lines: 39 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15858 alt.paranormal:3255 alt.alien.visitors:2274 karenm@yenta.alb.nm.us (Karen Millar) writes: >All you have to do is get in tune with that hp by forgetting about your >self-imposed limitations, and solve that problem of yours. It's not an >easy task, but it is do-able... the information you desire is free for the >taking, if you can but unlock your consciousnes, as Einstein and many >many others have done. It is getting in tune with how the universe works, >and we *are* capable of doing this. The main issue that the Pleiadians >are trying to get across our thick sculls is that > IT IS TIME TO WAKE UP! Why can't we just figure these things out for ourselves. Why do we have to believe that beings wiser and more intelligent will tell us all the answers if only we will listen. Answers come through hard work, and hard thought and lots of experience and lots of trial and error. If you want to find the solutions to your problems, be they math problems, science problems, personality problems or any other type of problem, then buckle down and get to work. Don't wait for some gentler, nobler and wiser intellect to do it for you. Those who depend on higher intellects are taking the risk that they will one day drink some purple koolaid. I resent the notion that our great men and women of science and history were really tapped into some deeper center. Why can't we just give these men and women the credit they deserve. Not credit for "tapping in" but credit for working the problems out for themselves. Phooey! I've wasted enough time in this newsgroup. -- +---Robert C. Martin---+-RRR---CCC-M-----M-| R.C.M. Consulting | | rmartin@rational.com |-R--R-C----M-M-M-M-| C++/C/Unix Engineering | | (Uncle Bob.) |-RRR--C----M--M--M-| OOA/OOD/OOP Training | +----------------------+-R--R--CCC-M-----M-| Product Design & Devel. | Path: ns-mx!uunet!caen!hellgate.utah.edu!peruvian.utah.edu!sgandy From: sgandy%peruvian.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Sildem Gandy) Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts Message-ID: <1991Oct3.195007.6067@hellgate.utah.edu> Date: 4 Oct 91 01:50:07 GMT References: <1991Sep30.170806.18957@engage.pko.dec.com> <48016@cup.portal.com> <1991Oct1.153547.6833@informix.com> Organization: University of Utah CS Dept Lines: 31 Xref: ns-mx talk.religion.newage:7058 sci.skeptic:15862 alt.alien.visitors:2275 alt.paranormal:3256 In article <1991Oct1.153547.6833@informix.com> bruceb@informix.com (Bruce Barr) writes: >Please offer ANY historical evidence of ANY past life uncovered by ANYBODY >that is, of course, not explained by some 'tainting' of the person by >by normal knowledge of the historical events involved. I will accept >any reasonable doubt that no tainting is involved. I am just unaware of >any evidence. Please show me I am wrong. > > >Bruce Barr Try reading "The girl with blue eyes". I don't remember the author off-hand but this has a very interesting account of a girl regressed to a previous life. She remembered a life when her name was "Lishus Faver". And "We took the gates". Her father tried to find an historical record of this and event- ually found one of an Aloyisious LeFever who was famed for have taken the gates of a fort. His daughter had no possibility of knowing this very obscure bit of history. Here's another possible tidbit. I am very certain that in my previous life in the twenties my name was Henry George Witherspoon the third, my father went by Hank, I went by George, I drove a yellow Stutz Bearcat, I lived in the New England area (I had a very New England teeth gritting accent!). I had an accident where I ran into a crowd of people with the Stutz, I think in about 1926 or so. I died in '27. Anybody out there want to look up the historical references regarding that? Or perhaps you know of the family? I think the family owned textile mills. And my brothers name was Sam. Sildem Gandy (sgandy@peruvian.utah.edu) Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!sgi!shinobu!odin!spanky.corp.sgi.com!pbroenen From: pbroenen@spanky.corp.sgi.com (Paul Broenen) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Ian Stevenson and Reincarnation Message-ID: <1991Oct3.174024.4213@odin.corp.sgi.com> Date: 3 Oct 91 17:40:24 GMT References: <1991Sep30.170806.18957@engage.pko.dec.com> <48088@cup.portal.com> Sender: news@odin.corp.sgi.com (Net News) Reply-To: pbroenen@spanky.corp.sgi.com (Paul Broenen) Organization: Silicon Graphics, Inc., Mountain View, CA Lines: 53 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15867 alt.paranormal:3257 alt.alien.visitors:2276 talk.religion.newage:7059 In article <48088@cup.portal.com>, Don_-_Showen@cup.portal.com writes: |> A while back Don Allen posted |> The Meier Case & Its Spirituality -- By James W. Deardorff |> |> Below is part of that post. I have not read Ian Stevensons work but |> he did get a million dollar grant to study reincarnation. So maybe |> it will provide a form of proof to those who would like to examine |> the possibility of reincarnation. |> |> It is interesting that the concept of reincarnation has arisen from |> observations quite independent of any religious teachings. Data have been |> accumulating in the files of those psychiatrists who have carefully studied |> childhood cases of the "reincarnation type." In these cases, of worldwide |> distribution, an occasional child, usually between ages of two and six, will |> be noticed by parents or relatives to talk spontaneously at times as if he or |> she were actually someone else. Often the child makes enough statements so |> that the "someone else" can be identified beyond reasonable doubt as a |> particular person who had died some years or months before the birth of the |> child in question. Ian Stevenson, author of cases of the Reincarnation Type |> (four volumes published between 1975 and 1980), has over a thousand "solved" |> cases of this nature in his files, along with a comparable number of unsolved |> cases. After the child exceeds an age of from six to ten, the past-life |> memories generally fade away. For what it's worth, about a month ago I read a book entitled: "The After-life Experience" (Subtitled: "The Physics of the Non-physical") I don't recall the author's last name (Wilson?), but he was British and had the same first name "Ian". This author mentioned some of Stevenson's most striking cases. Specifically, two cases of children in India who claimed to be people other than they currently were. However, the author set about debunking Stevenson, because [reportedly more thorough] researchers who followed up with Stevenson's subjects found many flaws and signs of trickery. The author's claim was that Stevenson was too eager to find evidence for reincarnation and hurriedly accepted a lot of 'evidence' on faith. I don't particularly recommend "The After-life Experience" as a knowledgeable resource. The author doesn't seem to have the appropriate background for a book regarding such subjects. Plus, he shows an obvious bias thoughout his presentation of "facts". Another word of warning: the subtitle is misleading. There is only one chapter in the book that even approaches the subject of Physics and it merely describes a handful of studies that may have revealed paranormal phenomena (like Einstein's particle spinning test.) Paul Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts Message-ID: Date: 4 Oct 91 03:16:14 GMT References: <46869@cup.portal.com> <47188@cup.portal.com> <47838@cup.portal.com> <1991Sep29.204656.10708@summa4.mv.com> Reply-To: jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 18 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2277 alt.paranormal:3258 talk.religion.newage:7060 sci.skeptic:15868 In article <1991Sep29.204656.10708@summa4.mv.com> admin@summa4.mv.com (Scott Babb) writes: >I hate to be a skeptic ;-), but has anyone mentioned that the Pleiadians claim >to be from a star system whose age is measured in thousands of years (well, >tens of thousands, maybe) while we lesser-advanced beings have taken millions >of years to evolve to our current level? Perhaps living on plasma planets >is more conducive to rapid intellectual evolution? I used to mention it every chance I got. Then I got tired of all the chances :-) Of course, the Pleiadians might not have bodies. But then, why hang around any particular star system? -- * From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION: | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com| Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: A channeled message from Kuthumi to the U.N.: Message-ID: Date: 4 Oct 91 03:18:58 GMT References: <1991Oct1.012125.27603@beaver.cs.washington.edu> Reply-To: jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 28 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2278 talk.religion.newage:7061 alt.paranormal:3259 In article <1991Oct1.012125.27603@beaver.cs.washington.edu> pullen@cs.washington.edu (Walter D. Pullen) writes: > > MESSAGE FROM MASTER KUTHUMI TO THE ATTENDEES > of the > Parapsychology Society Subcommittee > United Nations > New York, New York > October 15, 1990 I didn't know the U.N. had a Parapsychology Society. What does it do? >Transmission received on October 11 and 12, 1990 by Dr. Norma >Milanovich, Albuquerque, NM. Copyright 1990 by Dr. Norma Milanovich. >All rights reserved. This message may be copied for the sole purpose >of sharing it with others. No part of this message may be published, >printed, transmitted, stored in a retrieval system, or translated into >any other human language without the express permission of The Alpha >Connection, Inc., Suite 204, 7410 Montgomery Blvd., NE, Albuquerque, >NM 87109. What is Norma Milanovich a doctor of, and why does she place such restrictions on a message which she claims she is not the author of? -- * From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION: | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com| Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!wang!news From: warren@worlds.com (Warren Burstein) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts Message-ID: <958@vaccine.UUCP> Date: 28 Sep 91 19:46:43 GMT References: <46869@cup.portal.com> Sender: news@wang.com Followup-To: sci.skeptic Organization: WorldWide Software Lines: 14 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15877 alt.paranormal:3260 alt.alien.visitors:2279 Don_-_Showen@cup.portal.com writes: >The Pleiadians say they are here to inspire us to the highest degree possible >so we will wake up and start creating our own reality And some people have already created their own reality... For those of you who are too tired to create your very own reality, I'll sell you some of mine. -- /|/-\/-\ The entire world Jerusalem |__/__/_/ is a very strange carrot |warren@ But the farmer / worlds.COM is not worried at all. Path: ns-mx!uunet!wang!news From: warren@worlds.com (Warren Burstein) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: Mt. Shasta Pt.1 Message-ID: <963@vaccine.UUCP> Date: 29 Sep 91 12:00:02 GMT References: <47271@cup.portal.com> Sender: news@wang.com Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors Organization: WorldWide Software Lines: 10 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2280 sci.skeptic:15879 Don_-_Showen@cup.portal.com writes: > They claim to be from a city underneath Mt. Shasta called Telos. So help them get connected to the net. -- /|/-\/-\ The entire world Jerusalem |__/__/_/ is a very strange carrot |warren@ But the farmer / worlds.COM is not worried at all. Path: ns-mx!uunet!wang!news From: warren@worlds.com (Warren Burstein) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts Message-ID: <962@vaccine.UUCP> Date: 29 Sep 91 11:55:25 GMT References: <46869@cup.portal.com> <47188@cup.portal.com> Sender: news@wang.com Followup-To: sci.skeptic Organization: WorldWide Software Lines: 12 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15880 alt.paranormal:3261 alt.alien.visitors:2281 talk.religion.newage:7063 Don_-_Showen@cup.portal.com writes: .. there are numerous quote gods Hmm, most religions do not quote their gods. Does this mean that Pleidians do not evaluate their deities? Why doesn't elisp have a divine-p predicate? -- /|/-\/-\ The entire world Jerusalem |__/__/_/ is a very strange carrot |warren@ But the farmer / worlds.COM is not worried at all. Path: ns-mx!uunet!wang!news From: warren@worlds.com (Warren Burstein) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic Subject: Re: Our Moon Part 1 Message-ID: <955@vaccine.UUCP> Date: 28 Sep 91 19:35:00 GMT References: <46422@cup.portal.com> <1991Sep4.010632.20064@bilver.uucp> Sender: news@wang.com Followup-To: alt.alien.visitors Organization: WorldWide Software Lines: 17 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2282 sci.skeptic:15882 dona@bilver.uucp (Don Allen) writes: >For those of you who think that channelled communications are secure..think >again.. Not to fear, channeled info is really encrypted in such a way that it appears to be plaintext. This explains the nonsensical nature of the "plaintext". Of course no one has the key, the aliens are bringing that with them because some clerk in Orion mistakingly stamped it "deliver by hand". How do I know all this? I just made it up, that's how. -- /|/-\/-\ The entire world Jerusalem |__/__/_/ is a very strange carrot |warren@ But the farmer / worlds.COM is not worried at all. Path: ns-mx!uunet!wupost!waikato.ac.nz!canterbury.ac.nz!cosc.canterbury.ac.nz!chisnall From: chisnall@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz (The Technicolour Throw-up) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Gravity Propulsion ?? Message-ID: <1991Oct4.211843.2379@csc.canterbury.ac.nz> Date: 4 Oct 91 09:18:42 GMT References: <1991Sep26.224105.19400@mprgate.mpr.ca> Organization: Computer Science,University of Canterbury,New Zealand Lines: 26 Nntp-Posting-Host: hihi.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz In article <1991Sep26.224105.19400@mprgate.mpr.ca>, spani@mprgate.mpr.ca (Leonard Spani) writes: > - one method of propulsion was to focus the gravity waves at a distant > point in space and "pull" that point towards the ship together by > bending space. When the gravity was turned off, space would "snap" back > into position and the ship would be in the new position. A new position > that may be very, very far from the original position. > - Lazar claimed that ships using this drive mechanism could travel *much* > faster than the speed of light. (Although technically they wouldn't > actually *travel* from A to B, they would instantaneously "snap" from A > to B and their effective speed (distance/time) would be many times the > speed of light.) There is a slight detail which Lazar seems to have overlooked - gravity waves travel at the speed of light. You may very well be able to "snap" from A to B near instantaneously after having "pulled" B towards A but the gravity waves travelling from A to B in order to set up this "space warp" will only travel at the speed of light and hence you spend a lot of time waiting around for the gravity waves to get to B. If B is 1 light year away then I am going to have to wait 1 year before the "warp" is even set up. Result: no faster than light travel by this method. -- Just my two rubber ningis worth. Name: Michael Chisnall email: chisnall@cosc.canterbury.ac.nz Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!moe.ksu.ksu.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!markh From: markh@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Mark William Hopkins) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts Message-ID: <1991Oct4.094942.26510@uwm.edu> Date: 4 Oct 91 09:49:42 GMT References: <47838@cup.portal.com> Sender: news@uwm.edu (USENET News System) Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee Lines: 29 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15884 alt.paranormal:3262 alt.alien.visitors:2284 talk.religion.newage:7064 In article revpk@cellar.UUCP (Brian 'Rev P-K' Siano) writes: > All I want is proof. Why should I expend my time and energy before I >get a good reason to do so? Your friend claimed to be in contact with higher >intelligences-- before I make _any_ commitments, I'd like to see some proof >that your friend is genuine. (Either he's genuine, or deranged.) > The problem may or may not be solvable. All I want is either a >solution, or a lagically supported reason why it's not solvable. Until I get >that, the 'Plieaidian transcripts' are about as useful as line noise. > > So, whaddya say? Why don't you do the autotyping and convince me, if >it's so simple? One good logical proof. (And saying "It's notsolable because >our logic/philosophy/science/minds are too limited" is a cop-out. >So there.) I don't you think you realise what you're saying here. You made an unreasonable demand made not even of any hard science. If you believe otherwise, then provide a consistency proof of Maxwell's Equations. In case you're not informed, it's still an open problem. And I'm not referring to absolute consistency a la Goedel either, but simply consistency based on set theory. And the point is that this in no way detracts from Maxwell's Theory's status as being a perfectly acceptable (as far as it is *Physically* consistent ... another issue in itself). Therefore, logical proof is not an acceptable criterion for acceptance of a theory. This is not an opinion, but simply a fact: what actually is. Path: ns-mx!hobbes.physics.uiowa.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!csd4.csd.uwm.edu!markh From: markh@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Mark William Hopkins) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Evidence of evolution in the brain (was: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts) Message-ID: <1991Oct4.095722.26900@uwm.edu> Date: 4 Oct 91 09:57:22 GMT References: <47188@cup.portal.com> <47837@cup.portal.com> <1991Sep28.050155.29763@wpi.WPI.EDU> Sender: news@uwm.edu (USENET News System) Organization: Computing Services Division, University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee Lines: 12 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15885 alt.paranormal:3263 alt.alien.visitors:2285 talk.religion.newage:7065 In article <47837@cup.portal.com> Don_-_Showen@cup.portal.com writes: >There is a reptilian portion of our brain stem (primal brain). In article <1991Sep28.050155.29763@wpi.WPI.EDU> drwho@wpi.WPI.EDU (Eric Ant Von Laudermann) writes: >NNNNnnnnnooooo..... I thought we were mammals. Or does being a "reptile" >imply something besides being cold-blooded and laying eggs? The layering in our brain reflects our evolutionary descent, and is one of many clues relating to our origin. I hate to tell you, but reptiles are your cousins about a million or so times removed. You're related to a lizard. Path: ns-mx!uunet!ogicse!milton!phylo.genetics.washington.edu!mkkuhner From: mkkuhner@phylo.genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts Message-ID: <1991Oct4.141118.17339@milton.u.washington.edu> Date: 4 Oct 91 14:11:18 GMT References: <47838@cup.portal.com> <1991Oct4.094942.26510@uwm.edu> Sender: news@milton.u.washington.edu (News) Reply-To: mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu (Mary K. Kuhner) Organization: University of Washington, Seattle Lines: 20 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15890 alt.paranormal:3266 alt.alien.visitors:2286 talk.religion.newage:7066 It's not at all clear to me that it matters whether Kuthumi or the Pleiadians are extraterrestrial entities or projections of their channelers' subconscious (or something else). They offer moral and spiritual advice--why not judge them on that? If it's good advice, it's good advice regardless of origin, and if it isn't--well, I suppose alien intelligences can be badly mistaken, ignorant or malicious just as well as we can. I have not read very many of the transcripts, but Kuthumi's insistence on "Do not doubt, do not question, skepticism is evil" strikes me as a very bad thing; and the tone of condescension I hear in the Pleiadian transcripts also bothers me. Why spend so much time denegrating human accomplishments? How does this square with the advice to take pride in ourselves? I would be very interested in hearing from people who did find useful insights in this material; I'm open to reconsidering it, if shown a reason. Mary Kuhner mkkuhner@genetics.washington.edu Path: ns-mx!uunet!caen!kuhub.cc.ukans.edu!2fpfshelf From: 2fpfshelf@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: GREYS Message-ID: <1991Oct4.130709.34086@kuhub.cc.ukans.edu> Date: 4 Oct 91 18:07:09 GMT Organization: University of Kansas Academic Computing Services Lines: 3 This area is something that has always interested me, but I have not had time to investigate on my own. Would someone tell me what a GREY is as I have not encountered this term in my limited study. Thanks. Path: ns-mx!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!pashdown From: pashdown@javelin.sim.es.com (Pete Ashdown) Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,alt.slack Subject: Re: Previous Lives Message-ID: <1991Oct4.175950.16899@javelin.sim.es.com> Date: 4 Oct 91 17:59:50 GMT References: <1991Sep30.170806.18957@engage.pko.dec.com> <48016@cup.portal.com> <1991Oct1.153547.6833@informix.com> <1991Oct3.195007.6067@hellgate.utah.edu> Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp., Salt Lake City, Utah Lines: 26 Xref: ns-mx talk.religion.newage:7070 sci.skeptic:15900 alt.alien.visitors:2288 alt.paranormal:3269 alt.slack:1390 sgandy%peruvian.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Sildem Gandy) writes: >Here's another possible tidbit. I am very certain that in my previous >life in the twenties my name was Henry George Witherspoon the third, my >father went by Hank, I went by George, I drove a yellow Stutz Bearcat, I >lived in the New England area (I had a very New England teeth gritting >accent!). I had an accident where I ran into a crowd of people with the >Stutz, I think in about 1926 or so. I died in '27. Yet another tidbit to munch on. I'm very certain that in a previous life, my name was Jamm Morrisey or something like that. People usually called me "Lizard King" or "Mofo Fallin". I drove nothing, but liked to wear leather pants. I also liked whiskey and lots of women. I had an accident where I exposed myself to a crowd of people while using the whiskey. I died in the early '70s. Of course I was born before that time, but I seem to remember passing a dead drug addict in the bathtub in my early years while my mother was a maid in Paris. I'm fairly certain that his spirit passed from him to me. Can anyone back this up with historical fact? -- TELEVISON! Drug of our nation. Breeder of ignorance and feeder of radiation. DISCLAIMER: My writings have NOTHING to do with my employer. Keep it that way. Pete Ashdown pashdown@javelin.sim.es.com ...uunet!javelin.sim.es.com!pashdown Path: ns-mx!uunet!orca!javelin.sim.es.com!pashdown From: pashdown@javelin.sim.es.com (Pete Ashdown) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,sci.skeptic,sci.astro,misc.headlines,alt.paranormal,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: Richard Hoagland's Face on Mars Message-ID: <1991Oct4.181550.17457@javelin.sim.es.com> Date: 4 Oct 91 18:15:50 GMT References: ,<1991Oct2.140438.12854@bronze.ucs.indiana.edu> <1991Oct3.005142.6123@cco.caltech.edu>,<57x101yReeCU00@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com> <1991Oct4.005539.15572@cco.caltech.edu> Organization: Evans & Sutherland Computer Corp., Salt Lake City, Utah Lines: 18 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2289 sci.skeptic:15901 sci.astro:11785 misc.headlines:18415 alt.paranormal:3270 alt.conspiracy:7860 carl@sol1.gps.caltech.edu (Carl J Lydick) writes: >what immediate practical value was there from the Apollo/Soyuz mission? What >immediate practical value can we expect from the joint Mars mission? We've got >(or had, 20 years ago, anyway) the technology necessary to do it, so it looks >unlikely to me that we'll get any major R&D benefits from it. Why is there a need to bring everything back in a ziplock baggie with loads of technical data? I believe that the Mars trip would be worth more for its exploration value than anything else. Do you read National Geographic? Of course, the money is probably better spent on fixing THIS screwed-up planet, but we all know that there isn't a Greenhouse effect, right George? -- TELEVISON! Drug of our nation. Breeder of ignorance and feeder of radiation. DISCLAIMER: My writings have NOTHING to do with my employer. Keep it that way. Pete Ashdown pashdown@javelin.sim.es.com ...uunet!javelin.sim.es.com!pashdown Path: ns-mx!uunet!europa.asd.contel.com!emory!athena.cs.uga.edu!bking From: bking@athena.cs.uga.edu (Barrington King) Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal,alt.slack Subject: Re: Previous Lives Message-ID: <1991Oct4.185029.17678@athena.cs.uga.edu> Date: 4 Oct 91 18:50:29 GMT References: <1991Oct1.153547.6833@informix.com> <1991Oct3.195007.6067@hellgate.utah.edu> <1991Oct4.175950.16899@javelin.sim.es.com> Organization: University of Georgia, Athens Lines: 7 Xref: ns-mx talk.religion.newage:7071 sci.skeptic:15906 alt.alien.visitors:2290 alt.paranormal:3271 alt.slack:1391 After considerable study, I have discovered that Cleopatra has been reincarnated into the twentieth century over seventeen times. It must really be her period. -- "If you find the Buddha in your [] -WoMbat directory file, remove him..." [] bking@athena.cs.uga.edu -Grinning Bartok [] @aisun1.ai.uga.edu Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!bcm!DINO.QCI.BIOCH.BCM.TMC.EDU!skywalker From: skywalker@DINO.QCI.BIOCH.BCM.TMC.EDU (Timothy B. Reynolds) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: "Childhood's End" Message-ID: <7893@gazette.bcm.tmc.edu> Date: 4 Oct 91 19:52:00 GMT References: <91276.194741CCB104@psuvm.psu.edu> Sender: usenet@bcm.tmc.edu Organization: X-Ray Crystallography / Howard Hughes Medical Institute Lines: 16 Nntp-Posting-Host: dino.qci.bioch.bcm.tmc.edu In article <91276.194741CCB104@psuvm.psu.edu> CCB104@psuvm.psu.edu writes: >Has anyone read the science fiction book "Childhood's End" by A. C. Clarke, and >if so, what do you think about it? Also, does anyone know why it was originally >going to be made into a movie but that for some reason it was cancelled? Yes, it is one of my favorites. The rumors still persist that a movie is being made. If a movie is made it will have to be done very well with good Special-FX or they will ruin it....have you read Lucifers Hammer ?? Tim -- Disclaimer: My opinions are my own, not HHMI's or Baylor College of Medicine ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "And we stand and watch the gods and idols fall, as the blameless ones go blindfold to the wall" Robin Trower.... Path: ns-mx!uunet!usc!srhqla!venus!kdq From: kdq@3D.com (Kevin D. Quitt) Newsgroups: talk.religion.newage,sci.skeptic,alt.alien.visitors,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts Message-ID: <1991Oct4.181639.19148@3D.com> Date: 4 Oct 91 18:16:39 GMT References: <48016@cup.portal.com> <1991Oct1.153547.6833@informix.com> <1991Oct3.195007.6067@hellgate.utah.edu> Organization: 3D systems, inc. Valencia CA Lines: 15 Xref: ns-mx talk.religion.newage:7072 sci.skeptic:15911 alt.alien.visitors:2292 alt.paranormal:3272 In article <1991Oct3.195007.6067@hellgate.utah.edu> sgandy%peruvian.utah.edu@cs.utah.edu (Sildem Gandy) writes: > His daughter had no possibility of knowing this very >obscure bit of history. Why is this phrase so popular? Why don't people know that this kind of statement is false on the face of it? -- _ Kevin D. Quitt srhqla!venus!kdq kdq%venus@sr.com 3D systems, inc. 26081 Avenue Hall Valencia, CA 91355 VOICE (805) 295-5600 x430 FAX (805) 257-1200 96.37% of all statistics are made up. Path: ns-mx!uunet!bu.edu!m2c!wpi.WPI.EDU!drwho From: drwho@wpi.WPI.EDU (Eric Ant Von Laudermann) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: Evidence of evolution in the brain (was: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts) Message-ID: <1991Oct4.195601.14848@wpi.WPI.EDU> Date: 4 Oct 91 19:56:01 GMT References: <47837@cup.portal.com> <1991Sep28.050155.29763@wpi.WPI.EDU> <1991Oct4.095722.26900@uwm.edu> Organization: Worcester Polytechnic Institute Lines: 31 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15916 alt.paranormal:3273 alt.alien.visitors:2293 talk.religion.newage:7073 In article <1991Oct4.095722.26900@uwm.edu> markh@csd4.csd.uwm.edu (Mark William Hopkins) writes: >In article <47837@cup.portal.com> Don_-_Showen@cup.portal.com writes: >>There is a reptilian portion of our brain stem (primal brain). > >In article <1991Sep28.050155.29763@wpi.WPI.EDU> drwho@wpi.WPI.EDU (Eric Ant Von Laudermann) writes: >>NNNNnnnnnooooo..... I thought we were mammals. Or does being a "reptile" >>imply something besides being cold-blooded and laying eggs? > >The layering in our brain reflects our evolutionary descent, and is one of >many clues relating to our origin. > >I hate to tell you, but reptiles are your cousins about a million or so >times removed. You're related to a lizard. Maybe I AM wrong about the accepted theories of evolution, (and I wouldn't be surprised if I was) but I thought that all life evolved from the sea. And after air-breathers developed, reptiles and mammals evolved. The common ancestor of reptiles and mammals could not be considered either (that's the bit I'm not sure of... am I right or wrong?) and therefore we are not *descended* from reptiles. And if there are no reptiles in our ancestry, there cannot possibly be anything reptilian about us. My point is, there was a split somewhere, and the first reptile appeared somewhere along one branch -- eventually. and the first mammal appeared somewhere along the other branch -- eventually. We are derscended from something that came BEFORE reptiles. Therefore they are not ancestors. --E.V.L. (drwho@wpi.wpi.edu) # "It'll really cost the net hundreds, if Disclaimer: "It's all absolutely # not thousands, of dollars to post this? devastatingly true, except the bits # COOL!!" that are lies." --Douglas Adams # --Me Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!att!cbfsb!cbnewsc!jtg From: jtg@cbnewsc.cb.att.com (Redheaded Goddess) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Pregnant Russian Spacewomen Message-ID: <1991Oct4.214753.16680@cbnewsc.cb.att.com> Date: 4 Oct 91 21:47:53 GMT Distribution: usa Organization: Organization for Titian-Haired Beauties Lines: 10 Has any one heard anything about these Russian women that all came back pregnant after a space flight? The article was in some type of paper (like the Inquirer)---which I don't put much stock in. Is there any legitimate documentation on this story, does any one know? Thanks. Kathy Path: ns-mx!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!nntp-server.caltech.edu!harry!aquinas From: aquinas@harry.ugcs.caltech.edu (Christopher M. Dicely) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage,alt.paranormal Subject: Re: A channeled message from Kuthumi to the U.N.: Message-ID: Date: 4 Oct 91 21:35:59 GMT References: <1991Oct1.012125.27603@beaver.cs.washington.edu> <1991Oct3.104643.24834@linus.mitre.org> Sender: news@cco.caltech.edu Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena Lines: 47 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2295 talk.religion.newage:7075 alt.paranormal:3274 Nntp-Posting-Host: harry.ugcs.caltech.edu gpivar@tympani.mitre.org (Greg Pivarnik) writes: >In article , jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) writes: >|> In article <1991Oct1.012125.27603@beaver.cs.washington.edu> pullen@cs.washington.edu (Walter D. Pullen) writes: >|> > >|> > MESSAGE FROM MASTER KUTHUMI TO THE ATTENDEES >|> > of the >|> > Parapsychology Society Subcommittee >|> > United Nations >|> > New York, New York >|> > October 15, 1990 >|> >|> I didn't know the U.N. had a Parapsychology Society. What does it do? >|> >|> >Transmission received on October 11 and 12, 1990 by Dr. Norma >|> >Milanovich, Albuquerque, NM. Copyright 1990 by Dr. Norma Milanovich. >|> >All rights reserved...(other copyright related stuff omitted). >|> >|> What is Norma Milanovich a doctor of, and why does she place such >|> restrictions on a message which she claims she is not the author of? Thats not legal you know. Hmm... Lets start a Spirit Rights Movement... >Jim, this article intrigued me, it also prompted me to investigate its validity. >The question of copyright also was approached,here are my findings: >I called the United Nations to find out if a"Parapsychology Society Subcommittee" >actually existed. The U.N. says that there is no subcommittee by that name registered. >Althought they clearly stated that it was possible a non-governmental group derived off >of one of their subcommittes or a group using one of their conference areas. Which the U.N. >says, will not publish any transcripts which are collected within. >Not satisfied I called the Alpha Connection in Aluquerque,NM. They are a training >organization( teach the government and other companies ...how to cooperated) it was >founded by Dr. Norma Milanovich. The copyright is impossed so that the message can not >be taken out of context. This is a common practice, you'll find a similar copyright on the Bible You will also find that the copyright on the Bible is only valid covering the parts of the Bible that are the ORIGINAL WORK of the copyright holder or their employees. I'm not sure about whether a new translation is copyrightable, but beyond that the format, layout, any indexes, glossaries, maps, or included historical references are covered by the copyright. Copyright on a work that is entirely not the work of the holder seems to be questionable, although any formatting and layout might be coverable. -Chris Dicely "I am, therefore I am" Path: ns-mx!uunet!munnari.oz.au!bruce!trlluna!titan!medici!jbm From: jbm@medici.trl.OZ.AU (Jacques Guy) Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,alt.paranormal,alt.alien.visitors,talk.religion.newage Subject: Re: Evidence of evolution in the brain (was: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts) Message-ID: <1991Oct5.000348.17801@trl.oz.au> Date: 5 Oct 91 00:03:48 GMT References: <47837@cup.portal.com> <1991Sep28.050155.29763@wpi.WPI.EDU> <1991Oct4.095722.26900@uwm.edu> <1991Oct4.195601.14848@wpi.WPI.EDU> Sender: news@trl.oz.au (USENET News System) Organization: Telecom Research Labs, Melbourne, Australia Lines: 16 Xref: ns-mx sci.skeptic:15927 alt.paranormal:3276 alt.alien.visitors:2296 talk.religion.newage:7077 >Maybe I AM wrong about the accepted theories of evolution, (and >I wouldn't be surprised if I was) but I thought that all life evolved from the >sea. And after air-breathers developed, reptiles and mammals evolved. The >common ancestor of reptiles and mammals could not be considered either (that's >the bit I'm not sure of... am I right or wrong?) and therefore we are not >*descended* from reptiles. And if there are no reptiles in our ancestry, there >cannot possibly be anything reptilian about us. No-one said we were descended from reptiles (except creationists trying to argue ab absurdo). I have nephews and nieces (courtesy of my cousins and siblings). And I am not -- repeat NOT -- descended from them (would you believe?) And if there are no Anita's and Jean-Luc's et al. in my ancestry, there cannot possibly be anything Anita-like and Jean-Luc-like about me. Uh? Come again? Path: ns-mx!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: Photographic Evidence Message-ID: Date: 4 Oct 91 15:46:14 GMT References: <91276.30895.M22565@mwvm.mitre.org> Reply-To: jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 19 In article <91276.30895.M22565@mwvm.mitre.org> M22565@mwvm.mitre.org writes: >analysis confirm them as real? Also, does this newsgroup represent a microcosm >of the current state of UFOlogy? Channeling? Pleides? I seem to have missed >some big changes. The newsgroup represents whatever the users want it to represent. You're right in that there's a very vocal group of people who believe in spiritual beings from the Pleiades. There's a second very vocal group who believe in small grey aliens from Zeta Reticuli who have a treaty with the U.S. government and secret bases scattered throughout the southwest. Then there's a third group who don't know what the hell is going on, but get quite a bit of entertainment from those who think they do. -- * From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION: | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com| Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!rutgers!cbmvax!vanth!jms From: jms@vanth.UUCP (Jim Shaffer) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors Subject: Re: The Pleiadian Transcripts Message-ID: Date: 4 Oct 91 15:33:02 GMT References: <1991Sep30.170806.18957@engage.pko.dec.com> <48015@cup.portal.com> <1991Oct1.191911.7936@3D.com> <1991Oct3.001508.12278@cadence.com> Reply-To: jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com Organization: The Search For TERRESTRIAL Intelligence Lines: 17 In article <1991Oct3.001508.12278@cadence.com> jdm@cadence.com (Joe Mastroianni) writes: > >Marconi shut off all the electric lights in Milan with a pocket sized device. >This included battery powered devices. This happened long ago. Now, no one >can be sure Marconi actually did it himself. One day he said something >like, "On October 22 at 7:00 PM Im going to turn off all electricity in >Milan." And at that time, everything stopped working. So, was Marconi >in touch with people from other galaxies or dimensions? Probably not, but what exactly did Marconi do? This is the first time I've heard that story. -- * From the disk of: | NEW CONNECTION: | I'm in a groove now Jim Shaffer, Jr. | uunet!cbmvax!vanth!jms | -- or is it a rut? 37 Brook Street | jms%vanth@cbmvax.commodore.com| Montgomery, PA 17752 | 72750.2335@compuserve.com | (Rush, "Face Up") Path: ns-mx!uunet!sco!score!steveha From: steveha@sco.COM (Steve Harris) Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.sci.skeptic,alt.conspiracy Subject: Re: Cosmic Archeology (was Hoagland's Face on Mars) Keywords: Mars Mitochodrial DNA tetrahedral pyramid Message-ID: <1764@score.sco.COM> Date: 4 Oct 91 20:10:55 GMT Sender: news@sco.COM Followup-To: alt.conspiracy, alt.alien.visitors, alt.sci.skeptic Organization: The Santa Cruz Operation, Inc. Lines: 85 Xref: ns-mx alt.alien.visitors:2299 alt.conspiracy:7871 A possible Mitochondrial DNA theory on the origin of mankind: Humans appeared spontaneously on the Earth 220,000 years ago due to a genetic experiment by aliens (Martians perhaps) to preserve their race. As there is no reason to believe that the biological structure of these aliens could support their existence in the Earth's environment, it may have been necessary to "splice" or "engineer" already existing animal genes on the earth to produce a favorable result. As a side(main?) note, but related to the topic...it seems that no matter how skeptical I have become at times, this topic always comes back to haunt me, never being debunked completely, I am unable to put it to rest. However, I have seen everyone from theological historians, to mathematicians, to archaeologists analyze the geometry of the pyramids. There are definitely an overwhelming number of "self-referencing" dimensions. I am interested in some bibliographies on this topic. Also I have seen these measurements as they are related to ?Stonehenge? or similar, so-called, "druidic" circles. Do these analyses of the Great Pyramid's geometries "map" to the analyses of the so-called "archeological findings" on Mars? Or were the analyses of Mars simply based on these geometries. I should say that it is clear to me that the original post on Hoagland's presentations at the Whole Earth was best understood in the context of other findings. Some points to consider: Are there any clearly defined and plausible theories as to how the Eqyptian's could have built the Great Pyramid? I have seen exactly 0. What does the origin of life have to do with Homo Sapiens? Clearly we are highly evolved, far from the earliest forms of life on Earth. Couldn't mankind just be "edited" primates? I have seen no scientific explanation for the emergence of mankind. Just history. What exactly were the methods for resolving the images on Mars? I have seen NASA do the same to the pictures near Neptune and Uranus, is it the same method or siginificantly different? Assuming it was properly resolved (and not just manipulated), do the mathematical analyses actually reference the position of the object on the planet (and the planet being a sphere, based on what frame of reference)? What is this talk of Edward Kennedy and Mickey Mouse? Maybe the Martians went forward in time and found two figures which best reflected our identity...knowing that someday it would be Americans that made the breakthrough in discovery?!?! ;-) Why, if these structures do exists, has their existence not become scientific knowledge? Fear and speculation I suspect, provided their existence is real. Doesn't this just seem like a natural archaeological step in determining the history of intelligent life in such a slow-moving Cosmos? If we are all just neighbors, why couldn't we also be relatives? If we can't analyze the mathematics, then we aren't intelligent. It means about as much as T.V. to a household pet. Just a few thoughts and questions I have...I do not disbelieve any of it because (being a scientist) I have seen nothing to disprove the theories. I am skeptical...but no more so than about the evening news...maybe even less, considering the source. --Steve Harris =============================================================================== The ideas put forth here are not intended, in any way, shape, or form, to represent or reflect the opinions of the Santa Cruz Operation, Inc., nor any of the executive officers of that entity. Any similarity to opinions or beliefs belonging to them (or any other individual) are purely "coincidental", provided that is possible. The statements here are not the property of anyone, or are otherwise the property of everyone. They just happen to be made by me. ===============================================================================